Abortion: Always Make Them Think It Through

[rucky]

So, anti-choicer, you got your wish and a first trimester fetus now has the same rights as any citizen.
You've succeeded in outlawing abortion. Now what?

How do you prevent unwanted pregnancy? Abstinence and...? That's it?! No birth control? No sex education in schools? Oh, adoption, too. Sure, lots of parents want to adopt - there's a two-year waiting list in some places for a healthy white baby. Would you adopt a nonwhite baby? With medical problems? Birth defects from incest? (and you don't want gay people to adopt, either?) Oh, yes, I'm sure someone will adopt all those children. Otherwise, we have welfare and child services to support the mom and kid in the meantime...oh, that's right, you're against welfare, too.

Suppose a woman has a now-made-illegal abortion. How long should she go to jail for? Does life in prison seem fair? Death penalty? After all, it is murder, now. Not life? A lesser term? For a lesser crime, I suppose. (hypocracy alert) So what's fair? Why do you make that distinction (between abortion and murder)?

So you've removed all of the options for women to prevent unwanted pregnancies except abstinence, and have no plan at all to deal with the consequences if your (proven uneffective) abstinence plan doesn't work? They're on their own, eh? Doesn't this basically amount to punishing women (and their children) for not having the type of sex you want them to have. How did you decide that, by the way? The "right" type of sex? As long as we're getting personal, here...

Maybe you should think all this through a bit more before you propose a ban on abortion.

[MemphisTiger]

1. wow nice rant

[hippiechick]

2. Excellent!

:applause: Well stated!

[Inland]

3. The penalties for abortion always screws them up.

There's nobody really willing to follow the rhetoric of murder and put women in prison for life. But make it into a parking ticket violation and the huge moralistic fervor seems, well, as if it was a political exercise from the get go.

[northernsoul]

7. Prison for life? We're talking the death penalty in 34 states!

n/t

[Nickster]

9. But I bet you that they wouldn't have a problem with something in

the middle, say a 5-10 year prison term. Still doesn't address the hypocrisy of being treated differently than a regular murder.

[bunkerbuster1]

18. If an embryo = person, how can they justify 5 year sentences?

That's bullshit. If abortion is murder, then the weasels should have the courage of their conviction to support life imprisonment or the death penalty.

[dsc]

51. I have repeatedly seen statistics suggesting that the mean term

for murder is around 8 years. Given that 5 years isn't out of line.

[Inland]

53. But you wouldn't make the maximum into the mean.

or vice versa. That would have to admit that people who commit contract killings and get the death penalty would be somehow worse than the abortionist who repeatedly performs the procedure for money.

[dsc]

55. actually the post mentioned the women

not the abortion provider. I think far more pro life people are willing to see long sentences for repeat providers of abortion.

[Inland]

56. And what about women who have abortions repeatedly and

or without any pressure? Yes, some of the anti abortion people say they want the doctors. But they are quickly going to come up against do it yourselfers, and "unsympathetic" women. It's going to blow. I think that there are going to be so many loopholes, so much inconsistency, that the entire anti abortion effort is going to be seen as unfair and illogical even if one thinks abortion is wrong.

[dsc]

58. treating providers and women differently

would be hardly any different than treating dealers and users of drugs differently.

[Inland]

59. But that's decriminalizing use.

They are either a lesser class of criminal OR it is decriminalized. The latter makes NO sense in the context of abortion as murder.

[dsc]

61. It makes some sense

in that often times they view women as victims.

[Inland]

62. They'd LIKE to assert that

The anti choice people are working hard to avoid the political disaster of punishing women as murderers. So they are victims of the doctors, or at least of circumstances. Heck, it fits other stereotypes of women as needing guidance and susceptible to the charms of bad men.

But it won't work. It won't work because IF it's a homicide, it's got to be at least three to five for manslaughter no matter how much pressure the woman is under. In other words, letting women off is inconsistent with the very argument why abortion must be made illegal.

[dsc]

63. actually they were being quoted here

as favoring 5 years. So that would fit.

[OnionPatch]

72. It really is no different and

my question is: How can they call it "murder" but not want punishment for the woman? If abortion is "murder", and a woman willingly goes to an abortionist and participates, how can they NOT consider her an "accomplice"? The whole thing is so stupid. They want to call it murder but they don't want to punish the woman? I don't see how they can have it both ways. The thing is, when they think of the doctors, they think "murderer" but when they think of their own precious daughter getting an abortion, somehow she is not so guilty. This is why I always ask them "If you think abortion is murder, and then you find out your daughter willingly had one, how long do you think she should be in prison? Or if you think only the doctor should be punished, then what happens if the girl does it herself with drugs or a coat hanger? ( :scared: ) Should she get capital punishment or what sort of prison sentence?" That one always makes them think.

[Inland]

39. I bet they would/

Already, they can't put ANY penalty on the woman. But you are right, it's not nearly matching the rhetoric. That, plus the non enforcment and unwillingness to go after women going out of state, is going to make fundie heads explode.

I have to be careful. As much as I am going to enjoy the democratic gains when abortion is back in the political sphere, I don't want to give the idea that I wouldn't rather have the constitutional right reaffirmed.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

73. adios

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. What is the history here?

what did they do in the past? Did they put women in jail or just the doctors? I was too young to remember.

[Inland]

38. I'm not sure. I'm too young, too.

The history I know is seeing Poppy Bush being asked in a news conference about the penalities for abortion and having to TAKE A DAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

[colinmom71]

70. As far as I know...

the police only went after the doctor or whomever performed the abortion. Though the woman was never targeted for prosecution, it was not unheard of for police officers to delay or even outright deny women medical care until the woman offered testimony to lead investigators to the person who performed the abortion. Keep in mind that police were usually only contacted about an illegal abortion if the woman was having complications from a botched procedure...

But then, abortion laws pre-Roe weren't predicated upon the notion of the fetus being granted legal personhood status. Abortion laws in the US actually began in the early 1800's as laws intended to protect women from accidental poisoning from unstable herbal "remedies" and from then very dangerous surgical attempts that often ended in the woman dying from infection or hemhoraging. But by the 1960's, the proliferation of antibiotics and improved surgical techniques reduced the statistical risks of surgical abortion to being far less risky than the statistical potential for health problems or mortality due to pregnancy and/or childbirth complications. Ergo, the main proferred compelling cause for pre-Roe laws that proscribed abortion was virtually eliminated.

But what we're seeing now are attempts to invalidate the legal status of abortion based on protecting the fetus as having equal status of personhood to the pregnant woman. The problem there is, if abortion is to be illegal based on the notion that it is unjustified killing of a now person (fetus), then it must be considered a homicide count. And not just any homicide count - it would have to be a count of murder - either murder of first or second class (usually defined at the state level as premeditated, deliberate killing) or as felony murder (usually defined as a homicide occuring during the commission of a felony crime - the abortion).

If the abortion is defined as murder, then state prosecutors have a legal duty to prosecute both the abortion provider *and* the woman seeking to procure the abortion. Why? Because then the woman has committed either conspiracy to murder or "murder-for-hire", a crime that often holds the same or a similar penalty as the murder itself. The reluctance that most pro-lifers have towards prosecuting or penalizing the woman will become irrelevant under the very same laws they want in place based on their idea of fetal personhood.

[Inland]

74. Thanks! Great summary. What I was trying to say. nt

[Inland]

4. dupe.

[Nickster]

5. It all boils down to this one piece.

"They're on their own, eh? Doesn't this basically amounts to punishing women (and their children) for not having the type of sex you want them to have"

That's exactly how a right wing extremist sees things. It's black and white, you had a baby, you don't want it, now you must be punished by keeping it. If you don't live up to their "moral" code, then you deserve punishment until you see things the way you "should".

[rucky]

13. Here are the other countries who punish women who break moral code:

Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Togo... off the top of my head.

[Nickster]

17. Funny how those similarities pop up in my mind too.....

[Beer Snob-50]

6. this sums up perfectly the rw playbook on the subject

i think the democratic party has to not potray this subject as a womens right to do what she wants with her body, but instead we should give ideas on how to prevent unwanted pregancies. birth control, sex education are good starts. you have the baby, then welfare laws should be made where keeping the baby is viable and if not yeah, then adoption should be an option to all.

[Nickster]

11. Something like this.

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45

[Beer Snob-50]

29. THANKS FOR THE LINK!

perfect.

[Coexist]

26. Hey Mr. Pirate - have you been touched by His noodly appendage?

LOL! I like your name.

[Avalux]

8. Please send your rant to this jerk running for Texas governor -

If he has his way, all women who have abortions would be executed. He's scary as hell and there's a lot of folks out there just like him:

http://www.larrykilgore.com/

[texastoast]

12. Yikes!!

"Larry has a passion for providing freedom to others."

NOT.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. Good grief! This is really scary! Did you read any of his FAQ's?

[Clark2008]

28. Dating is not wise?!?!

From age 16 to 24 I dated and did not treat these ladies with respect. Physically I was virgin when I married at age 25, but I did not guard my heart. Dating is not wise!
I have watched pornography on the TV and computer. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes. Ps101:3

I'd be :rofl: if it wasn't for the fact that there are too many men (mostly men) who are just like this weirdo!

[rucky]

30. It all comes down to him not getting laid in college.

now he's making Texas pay.

[Clark2008]

31. ROFLMAO!

Of course, that's it!

Just think if some poor Texas co-ed had had one more drink and taken pity on the guy and suffered through it, we all wouldn't be suffering now!

[Kukesa]

75. Rucky, you are one smart Buckeye. Nice rant. nt

[northzax]

27. hey, at least he is consistent

if he really believes that abortion is premeditated murder, then he should say this.

I don't agree with him, on either point.

[smoogatz]

36. What a whackjob.

Wow.

[MemphisTiger]

44. It's my understanding the they are targeting the doctors

that would perform the illegal abortion. Attacking the supply side rather than the demand side. Basically charge him or her with murder

[Maestro]

52. What a freak!

Wow. The Constitution means nothing to him.

[MuseRider]

10. Then you could ask the men

who they think they are going to have sex with. I mean really, that is a pretty steep punishment for the women. I, for one, think the consequences are just a bit too high myself to risk ever having sex. (tongue in my own cheek of course)

[rucky]

15. and there's plenty of other governments that have been successful

in stopping premarital sex. right?

[texastoast]

14. Just fuck all those nutjobs

Women! Time to return to your roots. And I mean that literally.

There are veggies in the produce department and growing in a field or forest close to your home that will nullify this anti-choice atmosphere. That will nullify the need for birth control doled out as Wal-Mart sees fit. Learn about them.

Fuck these control freaks.

[Coexist]

16. got any links?

[texastoast]

22. PM me N/T

[alpizzy]

19. Do you have a link...

I would like to educate myself & others.

Thanks!

[texastoast]

21. PM Me n/t

[KittyWampus]

33. Research herbs that are classified as "Abortificants"

[texastoast]

47. AbortifacIENTS

Research and learning are good things. However, I do not recommend that anyone ever try one of these herbs without skilled supervision. You can get hurt.

[KittyWampus]

50. Oops! Thanks for the spellcheck!

:blush:

And also your note of caution.

[SledDriver]

24. What if Mom doesn't eat right, or drinks, or does drugs...

and miscarries? Can that be construed as manslaughter?

What if she's pregnant and gets into a car accident?
Vehicular homicide?

[smoogatz]

34. Shades of "The Handmaid's Tale"

Logically, yes--that's exactly where this whole thing is headed. Women are going to become the property of the State. Thank God--all that freedom they used to have was just too terrifying. We should probably lock them all up in cages, just to be on the safe side.

[ronnykmarshall]

25. G' on rucky!

:applause::woohoo::yourock:

[Triana]

32. They're control freaks...

...if they can't control what women can do and not do, they freak. The haven't thought about the incredibly flawed logistics of their controlling behavior or the abject hypocrisy in it. Just that they MUST CONTROL other people.

Period.

[rucky]

35. They lack the ability to adapt to their environment...

And the fear is so intense, they try to make their environment adapt to them.

Not very Christian, IMO. If they truly had faith, they'd accept the world as God made it. To compensate for these two binds they've put themselves in, they use bits and pieces of religion as a means to control - somehow resolving those two basic flaws (at least in their own minds).

[Nickster]

41. You're right on the mark. They are afraid, because they are told things

are black and white. Their whole philosophy is based on a theory that requires you to remove all humanity from your thought process. Human beings are made in all shapes and sizes, beliefs, etc. Not one size fits all. Their beliefs require a one size fits all view and if it doesn't work, they smash the square peg into the round hole, because it just HAS TO FIT!

If they start to let in ideas other than what they are told, then their whole world crumbles. That would be a scary proposition.

[Patiod]

37. This rant does not speak to the average anti-abortion voter

/channelling my Catholic relatives:

The answer is REALLY EASY - just stop having sex outside of marriage! If everyone would just obey the Church's Teachings, you wouldn't have these problems. Or get married! That's what we did in our day!

If you ARE married, you should accept all the children that God decides to send to you, and He will find a way to feed them.

Or put the baby up for adoption - there are A LOT of couples that are looking for healthy white babies, and with all this abortion out there, they can't get one. With abortion outlawed, nice white infertile couples will be able to get a baby finally! (what we'll do with those pesky unwanted babies of color, I don't know. I try not to think about Black and Brown people. Maybe orphanages - we know a guy who grew up in an Catholic orphanage with the nuns and he turned out just fine. So there you go - adoption for white babies, orphanages for brown babies!!)

And we don't punish the sinning women - too many to put in jail. We punish the abortionist/murderers - put them to death and good riddance! (The Death penalty is okay - we ignore the Pope on that one). With all the abortionists dead, there won't be any abortion!

What's so difficult about all that?

/channeling off

[cally]

40. Yes and remember we have more important issues to fight

Abortion is just a women's issues and I don't like the whole debate so I fight for better progressive values. I just leave the fight to the luny feminists. The right will never take away abortion...mornining after pills...birth control pills. :sarcasm:

[Ino]

42. Will miscarriages be investigated now?

Is every miscarriage going to be investigated to determine if the woman intentionally caused it? Did she fall ON PURPOSE?

[MemphisTiger]

45. You do realize that falling isn't the only way to

have a miscarriage right?

[Inland]

54. Of course. Why wouldn't they?

Every early termination would be like finding a body. Somebody is going to have to determine that it was "natural causes" and not a homicide. Think of how routine it is that "cause of death" is at least determined by a doctor. I expect that, in fact, doctors will be prosecuted if they don't report evidence of abortions.

[ourbluenation]

43. oh hell - just remind them that their taxes will go up to pay for all

those new kids on welfare. They hate that.

[area51]

49. Good point.

Tell them that if they're anti-choice, that they've just volunteered to have their taxes raised, b/c all those unwanted little ones are going to need daycare, schools, college, etc.

[readmoreoften]

68. won't work

they plan to defund daycare, schools, colleges, and probably "etc" too.

the unwanted children will need these things, but they won't get it from this new government. they wll live in povery and go to public schools that are more crowded and de-funded than ever.

[oneighty]

46. Couple of thoughts

1. The blood father of the aborted child should also be put to death or other punishment equal to that of the woman he knocked up. Or maybe dismemberment for the guilty male as well.

2. As soon as the white people learn blacks and hispanics and yellow people are producing faster then they are then abortion will quickly become legal for 'Those of other than white'. Same goes if one is other than Christian.

That ought to cool it.

180

[seabeyond]

57. i demand they think it thru. did yesterday with a friend. told her i

wanted answers. they have three decades to think about this so what do they have to say to me. because for three years i have been asking and i have yet to get an answer. all the stuff, the women that get one, how much jail. 4 kids at home, cant afford another, kids go into foster home? do we have welfare ready to take care of all the extra unwanted babies? are we ready to tell that ten year old that was raped by her father to have that baby, and who is going to take care of it? i want to know

she tells me i dont know.

not good enough,...... going to create a mess with no thought to take care of. she tells me, we cant always have the answer, like with social security and iraq war

no i tell her, that is only a repug position, go in and create a mess, leaving a bigger mess cause it isnt thought thru. in personal life, or business the adult thinks it thru, looks at different things that can happen and figure out plans to deal with. that is what the adult does. that is what our repugs do NOT do and it is about damn time we demand it

[Iris]

60. "we can't always have the answer"

Then why the HELL would we be making LAWS about something like this. The very thought of a woman - any age - being forced to deal 9 months of pregnancy and a year of recovery after being raped makes my stomach turn. And her answer is "we can't have all the answers?"

Well, guess what!?!?? We DO have all the answers - it's called history. People oughta study it once in a while so we can stop repeating mistake after mistake after mistake.

on edit:

oh and what ABOUT Social Security and IRAQ?????? It looks like we ARE getting all the answers - Bush and his cronies lied about weapons of mass destruction. There's loads of info. about Social Security and its status. Maybe she could read something and interpret it for herself once in a while.


:rant:

[left of center]

65. Very Good! You make them ponder the consequences of their

actions when then limit the options for others.

[cynatnite]

64. They'll give 'wait until you're married' classes at school...

show the benefits of having sex after your married plus they'll make sure that young girls believe they can get pregnant french kissing. They'll stick with the oldies but goodies scare tactics that have done so well in keeping good girls from hitting the sack with their boyfriends before they get a ring on their finger. Only good comes from marriage between a man and a woman. Anything else is a sin and all that. :eyes:

And those young girls who shamelessly have sex and become pregnant will be shipped off to an old-fashioned unwed mothers' home. Those were the days. The babies of course will go to good christian white civilized folks.

The less than perfect babies...well, we can't talk about those.

Oh, and I should add, the class will be preceded by a prayer for guidance.

Problem solved.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

I really hate these people sometimes.

[rucky]

66. then get me a minister, cuz I'm going to the prom! n/t

[OKNancy]

67. Married women have abortions too

Interesting that the argument is always framed in terms of young unmarried women.
What about the woman with kids in college and high school, working to provide for the family.
An unwanted pregnancy could throw the family into deep financial trouble ( and physical danger for the mom as well) It happens all the time.

[JNelson6563]

69. Let's go with the biblical punishment

If a man assaults a pregnant woman and she loses the baby, the woman's husband is due monetary compensation (nevermind the woman). If the assault results in loss of the baby and death of the woman, then you're talking about a crime.

[KittyWampus]

71. kick

[KittyWampus]

78. kick

[Orangepeel]

76. The fundie answer to all of those questions is "not my problem"

unfortunately, many of the people you are talking about are not the "think it through" type.

[in_cog_ni_to]

77. Great post, rucky!

:thumbsup: