Distressed at the irreverent slang used to describe Muslims on DU

[Dunvegan]

I don't know if anyone else is distressed at the epitaphs sometimes used to reference Muslims on DU on occasion...it's as if there is consciousness regarding many other racial, ethnic, and religious groups...but somehow some Americans think that good manners and respect does not apply to Muslims when speaking in general terms.

Here's what I said on another thread regarding a post where a DUer was snarking at the kid's page from DP World which has a cartoon character for the kids called Captain Hamad. I don't mean this to be personal...it's just one of a number of such references, and I finally had to speak to the pain this causes me.

Okay...I'm going there...please explain what's with the "camel jock" reference?

Political Correctness aside, "Camel Jock" is tacky.

It's not very worldly to refer to others as "Beaners", "Jungle Bunnies", "Crackers/Hillbillies", "Charlie Chans", "Mann Coulter/Trannie" or any of many such less than thoughtful asides.

We have a very diverse forum here...I read over at the Religion/Islam forum often. There are some wonderful posters there, mostly Americans. But wherever they are from, they belong to the land of DU.

Think about it. I know it's a easy shot if you're carried away telling a joke, especially if you don't have any Muslim friends, but it's not a good way to go about life...being a "uniter rather than a divider."

Pollyanna here...Peace...Out.

I'm multi-ethnic (Father=Ireland / Mother=Black and Native American) and have had people make racial slurs right in front of me about members of my ancestry, from all sides, without knowing I was partially of that particular ethnic group. It's tacky. It's ignorant. It's irritating.

I've also had people make slurs in front of me about ethnic groups/religions/sexual orientations to which my best friends/boyfriend/husband/or relative by marriage belong.

In all of these events, it's presented like a "Heh...heh...now that we're alone...those people...you know what I mean..." kind of a thing. No. I don't know what you're talking about. Other than being ignorant.

My Muslim friends have been so frustrated since 911...and, being multi-ethnic, I know what their frustration is like.

I simply think we're better than that on this forum. And if some members need some gentle coaching, or consciousness raising, perhaps they should be offered such counsel.

Excuse my rant. It's just that this is a good place with many enlightened ideas and many critical uniting causes.

I hate seeing it occasionally smack of "Stormfront Lite."

DU hardly requires at least one minority to put down so that some can feel superior.

Excuse my rant...*sigh*...I just dislike seeing this happen.

Especially in what is almost uniquely and solidly a very progressive place.

As-sallamu aleykum...Peace...Out.

[DRoseDARs]

1. We have some camel jockeys here in northern Nevada...

No, seriously. REAL camel jockeys for the yearly Camel Race held in Virginia City in September. We also have muslims here, but calling them "camel jockeys" has never occured to me.

[converted_democrat]

4. In the UAE they strap little boys as young as 2-3 onto the backs of

camels for races.. It isn't a slur, it's something that actually happens..

[JCMach1]

31. And the lies continue to spread...

I frankly am sick of the BS as well... This post was bloody typical of the racist uninformed tripe we have seen recently! The OP is dead on with the assessment...







...Under the federal Law issued by Shaikh Khalifa, violators will be jailed or fined or both. The law stipulates jail terms of up to three years and/or a Dh50,000 fine for anyone acting against the provisions of the law. It provides for multiple punishments in case the same crime is repeated in future.

"The Ministry of Interior is enforcing the law in cooperation with the municipalities. All the country's ports of entry have been instructed to ensure that children under 18 years old are not able to enter for the purpose of being used as camel jockeys," the source said... http://gulfnews.com/nation/Society/10022391.html

[converted_democrat]

36. Read post #35 and #37.....n/t

[PsychoDad]

42. Thank you for an interjection of fact.

Peace.

[Kickin_Donkey]

43. Red herring ...

In THIS country, the use of "camel jockey" is pejorative, with racist intent. THAT's a fact.

To use your logic, referring to Mexicans as "wetbacks" is OK because some, in fact, do cross the Rio Grande and get their backs wet.

Sorry, doesn't work that way.

[NobleCynic]

30. Bloody Virginia City

On the other hand you gotta keep in mind the local mosque in Reno (the sikh one just east of downtown, I don't know if there are others) did get smashed up right after 9/11. Using it as a general term is unnecessary.

[converted_democrat]

2. That's not a slur it's the truth.. They strap little boys the age of 2-3

to the backs of camels for races.. They make the little boys be camel jockeys.. It isn't a slur, it's the truth.. This is something that is done in the UAE..

[Big Kahuna]

5. Ok fine...

I'm sure you can find a few examples of black people who like watermellon and can't shut up in a movie theater, white people with no rhythm and small genetalia, miserly jewish people, and hispanics who BBQ on the sidewalk and carry switchblades. It doesn't make the stereotypes any less ugly.

[converted_democrat]

8. Did you even go to the link and see the posters reply? It wasn't meant in

nasty way.. These kids are treated horribly.. It wasn't meant in the fashion that the OP claiming..

[salin]

9. or how about "torturers"

about all americans? Documented truth of some (heinous and shameful) incidents - does that mean that through the world all - even those appalled by the actions and those completely unaware should be all tagged world wide as torturers?

[salin]

6. ergo - beyond the few involved this is a fine slur for all?

ugh :eyes:

[converted_democrat]

10. That isn't what I said.. The person the OP is referring to didn't mean it

in the fashion that he is claiming.. The little boys are used as jockeys and it's crap but it happens.. The little boys that are being mistreated are camel jockeys.. What do you purpose we call them?

[salin]

13. I read it differently

and given the *long* standing use of the term as a racist pejorative, I would suggest that it reads as if folks now are rationalizing the use of the word due to the limited - but heinous - practice.

As to what to call them? Enslaved children. Slaves. Or the practice: slavery. Those words have a h#ll of a lot more valence than using a long standing racist term.

[converted_democrat]

16. You read it wrong.. The person that made the statement explained it

and the intention behind it.. The boys are camel jockeys.. It's rough but it's true.. There are so many different kinds of slave out there that you kind of have to be more specific than just slave if you want someone to know what you're talking about..

[JCMach1]

32. Absolutely not the truth... would you care to back that up!!!?

[converted_democrat]

35. Yep, I'll back it up....

http://acr.hrschool.org/mainfile.php/0205/390/
snip-
Ansar Burney said that last month a four-year boy from Pakistan felt down from camel and died when camels ran away on his body, in another incidence last week
another Pakistani one and a half year old boy fell off from camel and lost his legs in UAE. Ansar Burney, known as ‘human rights Angel’ said that more than fourty thousand (40,000) innocent children are living in most miserable circumstances and also dieing in a very miserable conditions for which one cannot even imagine.

snip-
They even lost their sexual ability because of use them as child camel jockeys from the age of one and a half year or start from two years of age and used them till the age of seven.
--------------
http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=13370
This one is in PDF format, but on page 10 it says one of the boys that they had found was 3.. (I can't copy and paste it because of it's format, but go to page 10 half way down the page..

[converted_democrat]

37. Here's another one..

http://www.uaeprison.com/camelkids.htm

"The jockeys are usually young boys, two to seven year olds chosen for their light weight. The beginning of the races marks a festive season for the UAE's people who are usually accompanied by traditional music and singing to the Arabian drum beats. The green, red, black and white national flag of the Emirates flutters atop high poles that line the road leading out from town."


You also made mention about the "new rules".. This source says they go ignored- Same link as above..

"The new rules published by Emirates Camel Racing Federation (ECRF) in June 2003, stipulated that any camel jockey must be aged 15 years or more and weigh at least 35kg. Although, the rules are being ignored and the allegations remain that the Emirate government has acknowledged that many racers are too young and weigh too little but avoid stopping the traffic of slaves because they themselves are camel and slave owners."

[Igel]

3. Here are some links.

From a putatively "acceptable" source.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=65777&d=22&m=6&y=2005

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=64350&d=25&m=5&y=2005

Camel jockeys. Little kids, typically all but slaves, typically smuggled into the countries. Typically Arab countries: few others have camel races.

[salin]

11. the slur has been around since the first iraq war

and thrown about by folks who had no knowledge of this relatively small part of the entire muslim/arab population engaged in such tactics. Given how it is often used by folks exchanging the term freely with slurs like "rag heads" - I seriously doubt the word is used to try to "raise awareness" for the social injustice /tragedy of said practice of child enslavement. Given that the slur is often used in a very generalized way for folks who have nothing to do with the UAE, let alone the creeps engaged in the abusive and heinous behavoir described, belies that the term is being used in anything but an ugly, perjorative way.

[Dunvegan]

7. Okay...here's my point. I'm long aquained with children in camel racing.

...just like horse jockeys, they are chosen (sometimes by the wealthy against their will, sometimes not) because their light weight helps in winning races. This is a sport where wealth exploits children. It is not the only way children are exploited the world around. Do you know for a fact that any of the Dubai Port executives race camels? If so, post that. Child exploitation would be relevant to ethics of the executives of the company. If not, it's just a bit of a weak shot.

Were you referencing these children in their plight in your post? Or, are you being disingenuous?

Honesty here: Was that meant as a coarse aside that you wouldn't apply to McGruff, or Disney, or Smurfs?

The reality is that a site hires an artist. The artist's job is to create a character for children to relate to while they tell a story that indirectly sells/advertises the company's business. I don't care for any foreign (read: Non-American) company to get these port bids in the present climate. No other country.

We have European companies that administer some American ports. If it were an Italian company with a kid's page, and a kid called "Capt'n Pirelli", would you have made a crack about choir boys and priests?

Honestly?

Think about it.

[converted_democrat]

12. The children that are being mistreated are camel jockeys.. What do

you purpose we should call them? (And by the way how many horse racers do you know that strap kids down on the saddle..)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. Waileykum Assalaam

Brother, please don't be distressed! Yes, indeed, there have been some people here who have caused me to feel bad, but I have found that, on the most part, it was because of ignorance. (The one or two times it wasn't, it was trolls, I think) I have been heartened by how many DUers have offered support and who have thanked me for giving them information about Islam that they didn't have. Their kindness and unselfishness humbles me and makes me glad. I will say that even the worst of the posts here do not hold a candle to some of the hostility I have met face to face. Just try to remember that much of what can be construed as hurtful posts are coming from a lack of understanding rather than from meanness-and those who post mean things are usually found out to be trolls and are tombstoned.

[Dunvegan]

18. Yes...I am thankful for this community. And communication in a community..

..as diverse as this can be complex at times.

Sometimes the nuance of what may fall painfully on the ear to one is not readily apparent to others.

This I know by well-meaning people who explain to me that "that's not what I mean, and anyway it doesn't include you, so get over it" which is often heard by women and minorities. Many people have enjoyed a status where their birth/religious/orientation is not the issue it is for some. There's a bit of "tin ear" in some of these exchanges. Some things are hard to culturally translate.

Thank for your wise words. I'm usually dismissive when a "tin ear" comment is made about myself...but when it involves others I hold dear, I become slightly protective.

Thank you.

Oh...and please call me "Sister"! :hi:

Peace.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Sister,

you are always welcome here, especially on my posts! :hi:

[Marie26]

15. K&R

It's possible to oppose the port issue w/o resorting to stereotypes. Yeah, there might actually be "camel jockeys" in the Mideast, but unless the term is referring specifically to an actual jockey, it's just a racial epithet.

[omega minimo]

17. You have stated this so clearly and so kindly

It applies to any flavor of bigotry-- and the puzzlement (or distress) that it shows up "even at DU" is familiar. There are the Rules and there is a free-flowing, amorphous ebb and flow of Moderation, based on who thinks what is offensive to which group..... and it isn't ever really obvious what the criteria are (except the division of separate forum for Israel/Palestine issues).

DU women have made similar comments time and again......... the folks who are "getting" your point, are drawing comparisons to other groups, but overlooking women.

Don't be surprised if the naysayers show up to miss your point on purpose and put words in your mouth. They're like clouds of gnats-- just keep walking with your head up. :thumbsup:

The question that I have about this level of trash talk that people think is "no big deal" is:

When people on DU do it, how are we to tell the trash talkers from freepers and trolls? If more of us discouraged that kind of shite, it would flush out the fakes.

"I simply think we're better than that on this forum. And if some members need some gentle coaching, or consciousness raising, perhaps they should be offered such counsel."

Good luck with that. The DU Rules refer to the fact that this kind of slur "cheapens the discourse for everyone." I like to think "we're" better than that too.

[Dunvegan]

20. By the way...the original post was not about the issue of child jockeys..

...but about the cartoon character on the kid's page at the Dubai Port website.

This image:



To say the model for the kid captain was probably a abused "camel jock" is absurd, really.

The quote was, "Adorable. I wonder if they used one of their slave boy camel jocks...as the model for little Captain Hamad."

That statement assumes a great deal, and little of it good or understanding.

Can't an artist in for a Dubai company draw a child (obviously a healthy and cheerful character) without saying the model is probably an abused camel jock? I'll bet the character was based on a healthy and cheerful child. I don't see a haunted and emaciated child held for cruelty, I see a pretty average kid.

That's the "tin ear" part which I referenced.

Would it occur to anyone to snark (after seeing the children's books) that the model for Harry Potter is probably an abused choir boy that escaped the priests for the sanctuary of Hogwarts?

It's a total non-sequitur.

*sigh* I suppose the cartoon wars will never end.

[Skinner]

21. Context is so important.

Using the phrase "camel jocks" as a synonym for Arabs is bigotry.

Using the phrase "slave boy camel jocks" to refer to slave boy camel jocks is not bigotry.

[Dunvegan]

22. Skinner...do you think a camel jockey modeled for the cartoon character?

That's the statement.

Take a look at the character.

It's breathtaking in generality.

If the post had been about the abuse of children in racing, I would have had agreed about the issue.

But isn't calling any cartoon of a healthy and happy Arabic child one modeled on the poor abused camel racers a bit over reason?

[Skinner]

23. The member was making a joke.

If he had made a joke and used the phrase "poor abused camel racer" nobody would have notieced and nobody would have cared. I cannot speak for him, but it seems pretty clear to me that he probably was not even thinking of the racist phrase when he made his joke. If he had been thinking of it, I suspect he would not have chosen the words he did.

[Dunvegan]

25. My last word on the issue, because all I have to say has been said...

...is this: If we had a healthy Black child cartoon character, on a website where there were high-feeling running due to a Islamic North African state taking on the ports (again, I'd like all American ports run by Americans, not Europeans or South Americans, or anyone else) and someone said, "Charming. Wonder if the model was a terrorist's kid"...would that be okay?

Or, if the port deal went to a disputed American company with ties to corruption headed by Black Americans, would it be okay to say, "Cute. I bet the model was a crack clocker from the projects" would that be okay?

It wouldn't be okay with me.

Here again is the picture. Is the sterotype of "camel jock" a good joke without any insensensitive overtones whatsoever? Let's agree to drop this...but my sadness in genuine.



Here is the quote:
"Adorable. I wonder if they used one of their slave boy camel jocks...

...as the model for little Captain Hamad."

I feel it's a non-sequitur that's somewhat insensitive. I'm no shrinking violet, I've run a forum before, and participated in many. But I felt that here and there some jokes are hurtful, and could use a little more thought.

I grew up thirsty for the words of Dr. Martin Luther King. I experienced Jim Crow once while traveling in the South as a child. Sometimes words resonate.

The Dubai Port kid's page cartoon character seems modeled on a happy, healthy, normal Arabic child.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

[omega minimo]

27. In other words

Dunvegan (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-01-06 05:29 PM
20. By the way...the original post was not about the issue of child jockeys..

To say the model for the kid captain was probably a abused "camel jock" is absurd, really.
The quote was, "Adorable. I wonder if they used one of their slave boy camel jocks...as the model for little Captain Hamad."
That statement assumes a great deal, and little of it good or understanding.

[woo me with science]

24. i hope you mean epithets and not epitaphs. nt

[Dunvegan]

26. Yes. Spell check and fast typing...some things don't get the correct...

...correction.

Thank you for copyreading my post. It is appreciated.

And for the record: In the strongest way possible I condemn any exploitation of any child anywhere at anytime. How the discussion turned into claiming I was ignorant of children forced to race, yes tied down to animals, and was in anyway defending that is rather ad hominem and off-topic. Having administered a victim's rights forum for four years, I think that's rather specious.

Not every Dubian races boys on camels. Only the corrupt wealthy few.

Not every American shoots clipped-winged quails like shooting fish in a barrel. Only the corrupt wealthy few.

Sometimes a cartoon of a kid is just a cartoon of a kid.

[jberryhill]

29. And that was the point

"Not every Dubian races boys on camels. Only the corrupt wealthy few."

Dubai is RUN by a corrupt wealthy few. The Port company is also run by the corrupt wealthy few.

Or do you think the ones in bed with BushCo are busy spending their fortune on reform efforts to end the practice?

The entire REASON that "camel jockey" is an insult, even among Arabs, is that it is calling someone "a worthless little boy". It did not originate as an external slur.

"Sometimes a cartoon of a kid is just a cartoon of a kid."

Yes. And here it is a bright, smiling, happy and healthy cartoon of a child adorning the web site of coldblooded plutocratic billionaires.

Sometimes a cartoon of an African American woman is a cartoon of an African American woman. Put it on a box of mass-produced pancake mix to make a corporate product look folksy, and it is exploitation... and, a slur.

Sometimes cartoons are used to manipulate. "Oh, look dear, they have a cute little Peter-Pan type boy with Michael Jackson's nose on their web page. They must be wonderful folks. I can see why they are friends with the Bush Crime Family."

[Hoping4Change]

39. Very illuminating post. I myself have never heard of arabs

being referred to as camel jockeys. My first reaction to the OP was that of being stunned that such offense was being taken at calling Arabs camel jockeys.

Upon seeing the term I simply thought it referred to Arabs long association with camels in the same vein as people refer to the British upper class as the "horsey set" or refer to Americans as cowboys or sports enthusiasts as jocks. At worst a tad irreverent.

Your explanation as to why its insulting namely that it reviles a person as a worthless boy certainly sheds light. It also lead me to google information about these enslaved children which I had heard about but never realized the true extent of the problem.

Ansar Burney a Pakistani lawyer who rescues these children estimates that there are currently 40,000 boys enslaved as camel jockeys. That is astounding but what is more astounding is that he says he has never met a camel jockey who was arab. He says the boys who are enslaved are either Pakistani, Bangladeshi, or Sudanese. So it seems evident to me that arabs are displaying blatant racism in that their children are too worthy too precious to be be slaves.

So what EFFING profound IRONY is it that Arabs who deem their offspring to good to be camel jockeys, too good to be worthless boys, to good to be slaves are all in a knot that they get tagged with that very epithet. Maybe there's an Allah after all.

[jberryhill]

40. You'll also find a UAE propaganda page

That goes on at length about UAE government efforts to root out the practice and repatriate the victims, etc.

The thing is, it is not as if the UAE is a huge place, and the races are large public events.

If it turned out that slaves were regularly being found at Churchill Downs, you'd get the impression that your leg was being pulled about massive efforts to "crack down on slavery in horse racing", and the US is huge country.

The UAE has made a token show of "doing something" only response to external pressure.

As an insult, though, its primary significance is within the "in group". A more accurate comparison would be, for example, a reference to a certain brand of cookie that was an insult of some currency within a group in the US some years back. It's not an insult that came "from outside" and was applied to the group, so to speak.

Otherwise, if you think about it - its one of the national sports. You wouldn't think twice about someone calling you a "race car driver" or a "baseball player", but it is precisely because of the situation of these boys that it IS an insult.

[Hoping4Change]

41. This is why I have real issues with political correctness.

Although political correctness has helped increase sensitivites, it has a negative side when it becomes a knee jerk reaction. When an individuals or groups of individuals engage in behaviour that is patently egregious then they richly deserve derision until such time they show some degree of awareness and sensitivity.

[bloom]

28. It's amazing what people can get away with

when they say it's a joke.


If you want to be more outraged - other racist jokes that some DUers defend as "jokes":

When White Males Attack:
Larry Flynt, Racism and The Left

http://www.hustlingtheleft.com/mclune.html (warning - offensive images)


And 70% of DUers think that Larry Flynt is a "Great American".


Maybe some DUers get here by way of Hustler - so racist cartoons are normal for them.

I don't know. They aren't normal for me. And I don't think it is progressive to tolerate them.

[Hekate]

33. Good of you to bring it out in the open for discussion, Dunvegan

Periodically DUers need to rethink certain things.

Hekate

[obxhead]

34. One day.....

Your thoughts may become common views....

We will finally see partisan politics fall to the wayside once this happens. It's going to be a long hard war though.

You are right though, I expect more out of liberals and progressives myself.

[formercia]

38. I grew up in a racist family

none the less I try to be nice, but then i'm not looking for any political appointment in the next Democratic administration. At what point do you define a statement as being racist?

You make a good point though.

[Kickin_Donkey]

44. Tell me about ...

Even though this is a liberal forum, a lot of people here aren't as enlightened as they or we would like to think.

For example, they'd never allow someone to use "n-gger" as their DU user name, but for some reason another DU user is allowed to use a racial slur for Japanese that is as equally offensive as "n-gger."

Go figure. There are definitely "blind spots" amongst the DU population.

[Random_Australian]

45. Hmmmmmm

Interestingly, at my home before this one (5-odd days ago) people used the word 'Asian' as an insult, but here, just a 2-day car trip away, it's just a word.

That's just my obtuse way of saying that what's important is to remove the racism itself, partly by removing the asosciated words but also by not bieng excessive about it. By excessive I mean the ppl who got really angry at these two 4yo kids I know. Innocently enough they had nicknamed each other 'Milky' and "Cocoa" and were roused upon severely for it. Wrong! Bad! Now each has a fear response in dealing with people of different ethnicity, and so each avoid, and is beginning to dislike black/white people respectively. Plus it destroyed a great friendship. Grrrrr....
All I'm saying i be careful, and gentle where you can....