Lies About Hybrids

[erpowers]

Does anyone think the time when the media was making such a big deal about people being angry that their hybrid cars did not get the full gas mileage that was advertised was a big bogus lie made up by the auto industry (mainly the American) and helped by the media? I recently saw a post on a sport discussion board that was titled hybrid cars are a hoax played out on stupid people. I am planning to go back to the discussion board and explain to that person why it is that hybrid cars do not get the gas mileage that is written on their sticker.

However, getting back to the actual hybrid car/auto industry/media issue. As of about yesterday I began thinking that all the supposed people who were angry about their hybrid getting lower mileage than expected may have been over blown. Myself and other had always wondered why people who bought hybrids would care if the car got 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg. Off the top 40 mpg is great gas mileage. Furthermore if the media told people that the cars that advertised getting 30 mpg did not get that rating 40 mpg sounds even better. Other people claimed that people who bought the other cars were not expecting to get great gas mileage so they did not car about the lack of gas mileage. Also, people claimed that the people who bought Hummers had the money to buy these expensive vehicles so the could afford the high gas prices.

I now tend to think that the people who bought regular cars were like people who bought hybrid cars. They did not realize that the car they bought did not get the gas mileage that was pointed out by the EPA. That, I think is the real reason they did not complain about the cars gas mileage. That leads me to believe that the owners of hybrids cars did not really complain about the gas mileage of their cars. I am now beginning to think that the complaining about gas mileage was the real hoax that was played on people by the auto industry and the media. In addition, if you look at the issue from another angle you could come to the same conclusion. When all the complaining about hybrid cars was happening Ford and GM were having hard times, although they had not yet announced the hugh debts they were carrying, and they had not put out hybrids yet. Now that Ford and GM have put out hybrids I do not hear about people complaining about their hybrids not getting the proper gas mileage.

So, I contend the fuss about hybrid cars not getting proper gas mileage was just a hoax played out by the media and the (American) auto industry. I think the media purposely put out that hybrids cars did not meet expected gas mileage and then purposely failed to mention that no car meets expected gas mileage. If you are in the auto industry you would know that Hybrids did not get 60 mpg due to the EPA's flawed test. However, most people outside the auto industry would not know about the EPA's flawed tests. So, if they heard that the hybrids do not get the expected gas mileage they would think it was just a hybrid car issue and decide not to spend the extra $3,000. The media also made a big deal about whether it was financially smart for a person to pay and extra $3,000 when the car did not meet expected gas mileage. I think this may have been a joint effort by the (American) auto industry and the media to prevent people from buying foreign hybrids and to keep people buying American made gas only cars in order to try to prevent Ford and GM from going broke. If every American had abandoned Ford and GM before they put out their hybrid versions the companies would have gone broke.

[brainshrub]

1. I agree! We have nothing to fear from man-badger hybrids.

They are just as human as the rest of us.

...

What kind of hybrids were we talking about again?

:yoiks:

[AndyA]

2. A lot depends on how they're driven

People today are in a hurry. So they stomp on the gas when the light changes, keep their foot on the pedal until the last second, then hit the brakes, they speed up, slow down, speed up, etc., all of which greatly reduce gas mileage.

Use of air conditioning also lowers fuel economy, and lots of people run the A/C even on mild days instead of using the vent setting, because they can't tolerate to be the slightest bit uncomfortable.

Many cars are loaded down with useless junk, too. I saw an SUV the other day, and the woman driving it was moving stuff around to make room for more stuff. She had so much crap in the back seat, a person couldn't sit there if they wanted to. All of that adds a lot of extra weight, which lowers the miles per gallon a vehicle gets.

The way a car is driven has a great impact on the fuel economy, and the way Americans drive today, they waste more gas than they save, even if they do buy an economy car.

Americans need to clean out their cars, leave a bit earlier so they aren't in such a rush, and use common sense when they drive.

[Lumily]

3. Exactly.

We've had our Pruis for almost a year, and we literally learned to drive all over again to make the most of the car. As a result, we consistently get 53mpg.

I've also changed how I drive our other car, a Taurus. I don't speed anymore, and I coast when I can. It truly does make a difference. I still want to get rid of the Taurus for something smaller, but it's going to have to last for another year or two.

[postulater]

8. What have you learned?

We've had our Prius since Jan 2 and are comfortable with the 43-50 mpg it gets.

Got any tips on how we can increase that even more by changing driving habits?

I love it when the car just shuts down at the stoplight. My way of Stickin It To The Man!

[Lumily]

9. We paid attention to the computer screen...

...probably too much when we first got it. It's amazing we didn't have a wreck. :)

We both had a bit of a lead foot before we bought our car. Now we don't stomp on the peddle to accelerate from a stop. We coast when possible. We don't speed anymore after seeing how speeding takes the mpg down dramatically.

The car just made us think differently about how we drive, and that stranslates over to how we drive other cars. It took us a few months of driving the Prius to feel out how we could make the most of it. We just learned as we went along, and it depends on what type of traffic you usually drive it in.

[lectrobyte]

12. There are a few things that might help

When I first got it, I paid a lot of attention to the consumption/energy screens. Accelerating up hills, or having to give it way more gas seems to really stomp on mileage. So, if I can build up some speed at the bottom and slow down a bit as I go up hill, then I seem to get better mileage. I tried an experiment one day and used the cruise to go 55MPH all the way to work one day, and got bad mileage -- mainly because the cruise was having to floor it to maintain 55mph up hills. Where if I drive 65 or 70 and have a lot of momentum at the bottom of a hill, then I can still be doing 60 to 65 at the top, and seeing 54mpg.

I drive with traffic, or faster than traffic when I can, but I do try to take my foot off the gas if I see the light is red up ahead. It takes some getting use to, but if you can leave the display on "consumption" and try to keep the instaneous bar at least halfway up, that'll help. I actually turned the display off the first month or two as it can be distracting.

I also noticed lower mileage until the car was broken in and everything, the first 2000 miles or so.

If you are doing lots of short trips where the car can't warm up, then that will affect mileage. I always see 25-30 mpg on the consumption panel for the first 5 minutes, so if you have a lot of short trips, try to do them on a warm engine. The computer runs the engine more to complete a warm up. The colder months of the year factor into this too, I expect I'd see less mileage in a colder climate as the engine would be running more to maintain temps.

[postulater]

33. I have noticed that the cruise does seem to cut the mileage

We also have reformulated gas in our city which seems to drop it some.

[madokie]

4. back in the early '70s I had a big mercury all the bells and whistles

390 engine. when the gas prices started to rise in '73 I changed my driving habits. I could get 20 mpg out of that big car no problem, I took off slow drove the speed limit, lowered to 55 btw, was conscious of the way I drove and could tell my friends that lets take my car because I can get 20+ mpg, in my circle of friends money was tight and gasoline just took money out of our party money. So the most important part of gas millage is how the car is driven, ie the person behind the wheel.

[Greyhound]

17. Ha ha, I used to have a '67 mustang fastback with a heavily modified

428 SCJ big block that ran 11's in the quarter. Around town I always got 19 - 23 mpg. It was just a matter of the engine not having to work, just breathe on the gas pedal and off you go. Of course on race-day I only got about 6 mpg, but the point is that how you drive makes the biggest difference in mileage, and the majority of consumer boxes are so underpowered that the engine always has to work hard, and therefore, the mileage can't improve. BTW an added bonus is the engine burns out more quickly so it generates thousands more in revenue after the sale.

[madokie]

26. don't you wish you still had the old 'stang.

Exactly, as the engines work load increases so does the fuel to air ratio. High vacuum = lean burn = good mpg. several years back I sold my old 74 f100 with a 390 that got great gas millage 17-19 and that driving with a lead foot, bought a 79 302 and barely got 12 mpg just easing along. Replaced it in 98 with a new f150 with 5.4 engine and it gets at best 15.5 mpg, and thats with twice pipes and cherry bombs. I think the old carburetted engines were more efficient in the pussy footing type driving.

[Greyhound]

34. Yes and no, loved it and it looked just gorgeous, Had 15 coats of

black lacquer and 10 coats of clear, with very subtle body modifications to accommodate the rear tires and added a hood scoop for the intake. The 'no' part comes in from too many weekends at Bandamere at the friday night grudge matches, the frame and body were twisting and it was going to get even more expensive as I had more and more races. I miss her, but even then I had to go to the airport to buy AvGas so she'd run right. I doubt she'd even start with the crap gas we have today. My current baby is a 20 year old Nissan Z that suits the older me much better. :headbang:

[apnu]

21. Bingo! I bought a FEH 2005 and I'm getting 30 MPG average

That's splitting my time on short jaunts in the city and long distance highway driving.

When I bought my Escape the Ford dealer when to great lengths to explain all of what AndyA said.

People have lead feet these days and coupled with a 'technology will take care of me for me' attitude = a whole bunch of pissed off fools who don't know how to drive their hybrids. I'm sick to death of these anti-hybrid people harping about lies on the mpg sticker.

Let me point out one other thing, I've never seen a full internal combustion engine car get the MPG advertised on the sticker. Every new car I've bought has always been about 5 miles less than the MPG sticker. My FEH conforms to that standard. It was advertised as 36 city / 30 highway and I'm getting 30 on the city and 31 on the highway.

[lectrobyte]

5. I drive my Prius fairly aggressively, i.e., I have a 25 mile one way

commute through rural 55 MPH roads that most folks (me included) are doing 70 on. Not much stop and go. I get 52 MPG in the colder months, 55 in the warmer part of the year. On a long road trip, I'll average 49. If I see a lot of stop and go, it will avaerage into the high 50's. These are the numbers from the dashboard computer, not my gas station fill up calculations. So, I'm a little under the EPA 61/51, but not terribly so, and I've never had a car that got the EPA mileage anyway. No complaints so far. It's a lot zippier and nimble than you'd expect, and the quietness and smoothness are nice.

I've seen some of the news stories about the hybrids, and I think it is a certain amount of propaganda. I certainly didn't buy my Prius with any notion of financial payback in mind, I like the technology, the fact that I'm polluting and consuming less, and the statement it makes. After all, no one worries about the payback on those thousand dollar extra leather interior packages, or the extra cost of a 4x4 over a 2wd.

[AllegroRondo]

6. Has anyone ever had a car that met the EPA numbers?

I havent.

[bullwinkle428]

13. Diesel cars tend to do better than EPA numbers - I've been giving

some serious thought to buying a diesel-powered VW, and have spent lots of time at www.tdiclub.com, a site for VW diesel owners. Many people report mpg figures for the new generation Jetta with the TDI engine in the mid-40s overall, while the EPA numbers are 36 city and 41 highway. Not to sound like a tinfoil hatter, but there may be something to the idea there's an anti-diesel and pro-hybrid bias at the EPA, and there are many reasons than many Americans haven't embraced the diesel, but they make up about 50% of market share in Europe and that number continues to climb.

[CabalPowered]

19. Actually my Outback gets better mileage than EPA numbers

Both in town and freeway.

[Tesha]

27. My cars routinely meet the sticker claims.

> Has anyone ever had a car that met the EPA numbers?

My cars routinely meet the sticker claims.

It may be the way I drive, the fact that German car companies
have routinely come closer to meeting their sticker claims
than Japanese car companies, or, most likely, both.

Tesha

[DelawareValleyDem]

28. Not me either

and I'm a slow and steady drivers with a well maintained car

[skids]

7. Right on.

It is FUD put into the media by those car companies that do not have a decent hybrid effort.

I diaried a day or three ago about some of the other tactics being used:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/25/182047/704

WRT to the mileage issue there is an additional wrinkle, however. The EPA tests were poorly designed and, unintentially, the hybrids effectively "cheat" at the tests. Toyota for one says on their website that you won't get the EPA sticker mileage but they have no choice but to print it on the sticker by law.

[corporate_mike]

10. Hybrids are the future - Toyota will offer a hybrid of every model by 2010

[bleedingheart]

11. My ownly complaint is that I wish they were cheaper!

Now I could afford a Prius if I wanted one, but my other two cars are running...so I don't need one.

However...the people who need to save on gas the most are those who can least afford to shell out $22-26K on a Prius...

Now I know for some that it doesn't seem like a high price but that is a hefty car payment if you don't put enough cash down on it...

I went to a car show and I see fewer cars for less than $15K....

I remember when the home buying rule was that your home shouldn't be more than 2.5 times your income...and yet now it is getting to the point that people's cars cost as much as they make in a year...

[MrBowling]

14. I am a Prius Owner too

I only got the seaside pearl beauty on Jan 2nd (to get the big take break) and have been getting around 45 - 50 mpg average but here in the hilly portions of wv that's not bad. But I have learned to slow down in general, not speed out of stopped positions and to DWO (Drive Without Brakes) let the car coast into a stop also I take advantage of downhill and don't use gas at all. There are lots of tips on "Pulse" driving you should check out priuschat.com or priusonline.com great forums of prius drivers.

And yes the hybrid hoax is a myth created by the media and big oil. Just like in the 70's / 80's when they started having ethonol stations and they were quickly shutdown by big oil.

I would really like to see toyota offer an Ethonol/Electric hybrid 100% GREEN And Renewable!!

[lectrobyte]

16. It's coming. I keep hearing more and more about the next

generation of plug-in hybrids, and seeing articles about people who have upgraded to plug in charging and larger battery packs for a more electrically-propelled hybrid.

[newyawker99]

18. Hi MrBowling!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. Or biodiesel/hybrid. That would also be cool

[apnu]

22. That would be super sweet!

I love my Ford Escape Hybrid.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. We have a regular Explorer that spends a lot of time just sitting in the

dooryard, except for really bad snowstorms and camping trips.

[AllegroRondo]

15. Theres a nice tax break on them starting this year

If you bought one in 2005, you got to take a deduction of (I believe) $1,500.

But if you buy one this year, you get to claim a tax credit (much better than a deduction!) based on the vehicles gas mileage. I believe for a Prius it was around $1000.

[apnu]

24. It was $2000 and it made for huge savings on my taxes

I had a monster return this year. Hybrid + 2 college students (me and Mrs. Apnu) = tons of new furniture for the baby we have on the way!

[CabalPowered]

31. The tax credit this year is $3150 n/t

[AllegroRondo]

36. Wow, thats big.

remember, a credit counts as taxes paid. So your tax liability (or refund) would go up by $3150.

[CabalPowered]

37. Exactly

The previous $2000 deduction came off the AGI which only reduced tax liability by about $600.

[KyuzoGator]

23. Hybrids are a stopgap until hydrogen fuel cells are perfected.

Nobody is claiming they are the ultimate solution.

[Orsino]

29. Yep. Pure sour grapes.

Detroit, caught napping when fuel efficiency suddenly became popular.

I believe that most cars can get EPA-level mileage, if they're driven carefully. A smart car like my Prius will even train you to do so, if you let it.

[Javaman]

30. Hybrid madness... a few new cars on the horizon...

Both Ford and Jeep are supposed to be introducing Diesel/electric hybrids in 08 and next year, the one I'm waiting on at the minute, the Honda Fit. It's supposed to come out this spring as a high MPG car but in 07 or 08, it will be a hybrid. But the upshot of the Honda Fit is the cost. Honda is going to keep it affordable.
Unlike the Hybrids we have been seeing, that tack on a few grand because of the technology and the lack of amount (for lack of a better term), this one well be running in the 14-16k range.

I'm already signed up on their mailing list and am willing to put money down to have one reserved.

Why am I hyped on the Fit? Because the one coming out in the spring, (none hybrid) gets 41 MPG. I can only imagine what a hybrid of the same model will get. Yes, I can't wait LOL

[Johonny]

32. yes

I can't believe how many people have told me that my gas mileage was bogus. It's my car I think I know what mileage I'm getting.

[Apollo11]

35. I am getting 38 mpg in my Ford diesel

I have a new European Ford Fusion TDCi diesel (not available in USA) - built in Cologne, Germany - delivered to me 3 months ago.

According to the published figures it is supposed to do 47 mpg (20 kilometers per litre). But according to the on-board computer I am only getting 38 mpg (US gallons). Maybe it has something to do with the way I drive. Too many red lights and stop signs!

If you've never seen the cars that Ford is marketing in Europe, check this out:
http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/fusion

Biodiesel sounds cool, but ultimately private cars are not a very green way to get around.

Plug-in cars also impact the environment, unless you're using solar or wind power to generate the electricity.