The dollars & sense of hybrids

[DainBramaged]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-406/overview.htm

In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Rather, extra ownership costs over five years ranged from $3,700 to $13,300.


http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-406/hybrids-vs-all-gas.htm

Hmmm, so the hybrids are 1% of total sales of all vehicles in the U.S. But according to Consumer reports, (the bible of the foreign car devotes), there is no cost reduction in owning a hybrid, but additional costs accrued. And what to do when the batteries finally need replacing? (This from the magazine that doesn't understand the joy of driving for drivings sake).

Sounds like hype to me. Or just good marketing to get you to pay more than you should. VHS vs. Beta, PC vs. Apple, foreign vs. Domestic are perfect examples of long-term campaigns to sway consumer opinion.

Yup lots of initial good feelings over high mileage figures. But long term the pain kicks in.

Hope hydrogen power kicks in soon.:sarcasm:

[Ksec]

1. Fk Consumer Reports

I dont like them. Theyre biased against american cars.

[DainBramaged]

4. I know, but don't mention that here, American cars suck to so many

And I don't mean "assembled from foreign components disguised as Domestic content" either.

[Tesha]

84. Or maybe American cars (like my Caravan) are just shite. (NT)

[benburch]

2. I love my Prius.

It was only $20,500, and I've put 44,000 miles on it. Zero maintenance other than the oil changes and tires.

I bought it because it is a GREEN car. Fuel mileage is a plus, but I bought it out of respect for the atmosphere.

And I personally think that anybody who is NOT driving a hybrid ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[DainBramaged]

7. What about the plumber, contractor or delivery guy

tractor trailer drivers and police/fire/ambulance vehicles. Should they all be ashamed for not driving hybrids?

[benburch]

9. Once Hybrids are available for those uses...

Yes.

[DainBramaged]

15. So should they be ashamed now because they aren't?

[benburch]

18. No...

The CAR and TRUCK makers need to be ashamed now because they are not.

[DainBramaged]

24. (Sigh), do you understand how little weight they could carry

Or how slow their acceleration would be if they drove "hybrids"? Hybrid is a marketing trick. They got you to spend about 25% more than the same gas or dual-fuel vehicle gets, and when you realize that the gas Toyota's and Honda's have nearly zero emissions, (as the chart shows) how much will you save? Your gas price didn't magically drop. And if you don't live in California, you don't have the privilege of hybrid only traffic lanes.


You could have put the price difference toward buying a wind generator. THAT would be ecologically prudent.

[benburch]

32. Ummm... I'm an engineer.

And I've designed electric industrial vehicles.

And you couldn't be MORE wrong about the weight and power of a hybrid vehicle.

I suggest you review this web site; http://railpower.com/ <--- Hybrid LOCOMOTIVES. And the railroads LOVE them.

[DainBramaged]

38. "I R an engineer". I here that a lot when we talk about "war stories"

At the dealerships I work for. They always come in with that attitude of superiority.

In 1973, when I ran one of the first auto stereo installation stores in the country, I always had "engineers" coming in telling me how much better they could have designed something I sold but would be willing to take what I offered for no profit or at cost because they were engineers and knew better.

And the railroads love them but how come DIESEL engines have to power the generators. Ask GE. They have this great campaign right now about their hybrid engines.

They save about 1/2 GPH, not MPG.

[benburch]

42. Because Diesel engines fit the fueling facilities of the railroads...

But that is a distinction without a difference.

BTW, they also have LPG and LNG fuel options for in-plant use on these. You'd know that had you read the site...

And I like how you decide to turn this into a referendum on Engineers when your argument has been spoiled.

[DainBramaged]

45. Nothing was spoiled, I just turned up my propane heat

It's cold in here. I was trying to conserve energy but 62 is too low.

Whatever you want, I'll agree. I hope you still feel superior to me. I just don't make enough to compete with buying a hybrid, even a locomotive.:scared:

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[Higans]

97. Desil engines can be converted to run on corn, penut, or vegitable oil.

just a thought.

[NickB79]

63. Since no true hybrid trucks exist yet

How do you know they'd have poor acceleration or lack in carrying capacity?

I've driven in traffic with plenty of Prius's, and they do not lack in acceleration when it is needed. They usually just accelerate more slowly because the drivers tend to be more conciencious of their fuel consumption than the average driver, and don't see the need to floor it to get to the next red light 300 yards away.

Have you ever even driven a hybrid vehicle?

[DainBramaged]

92. Have you ever been a Union member? Lost a job to outsourcing?

Have you ever driven an 18 wheeler, or a 2000hp race car, or a police car. How about a UPS delivery truck? I have, and ya know what, they are a lot more fun that a Prius, because I won't let someone take the fun out of driving to satisfy their grand illusion of utopia.

[wuushew]

93. What about hybrids do you find distasteful?

the fact that electric motors supply a uniform amount torque as power is increased means that a person does not need to shift through the drudgery of those various gears during driving.

Electric drive has been used on numerous vehicles from battleships to 100+ ton tanks.

I welcome the improvements hybrid technology brings to car design.

[DainBramaged]

94. I find the attitude of the owners distasteful

Please track back. I'm done here. I'm tired of having to defend American cars against the tide of Foreign buyers and the judgmental bullshit toward the US car industry and the workers who try so hard to build the products given to them, and to those of us who can't afford a fucking hybrid or new car.

PS CV drive. I know, I understand the technology completely, Renault had CV transmission 40 years ago.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orsino]

100. Future oil shortages will take the fun out of driving.

That grand illusion of Utopia will soon be the exclusive province of millionaires. The Prius has nothing to do with that.

[NV Whino]

22. There are hybrids in Europe

used for many of those puposes. They have yet to make it to the US.

Personally, I would kill for a hybrid pickup (small). Instead I'm getting a Matrix (30-35 mpg) as an interum vehicle until they come out with a green machine that meets all my needs.

[leeroysphitz]

23. I agree with you 100 percent!

BTW can I borrow $20,500 dollars?

[benburch]

34. Sure! What is your collateral?

My standard rate is 35% per year, compounded continuously.

[leeroysphitz]

40. What are you? A REPUBLICAN?

I'm not familiar with my states USURY laws but something smells fishy here.

My point was, however, that I feel no shame in not owning a hybrid. (that statement sounded kind of "snobbish" BTW) I cannot afford a new car. In the 20 years I've been driving I've NEVER bought or owned a new car. Not ONCE. I want to do my part too, but becoming an indentured WAGE SLAVE to some bank or financing company just so I can have a shiny new ride is NOT the answer for me. I maintain my second hand vehicles and squeeze every last mile I can out of them. I think of it as "recycling a durable good".

[benburch]

43. No states have Usury laws any more.

Those all went out in the 80's.

Buy a used Hybrid, then. The 2000 year Prius have become rather affordable.

[leeroysphitz]

44. I promise when I can buy a hybrid for $1500-$2500 i will and then

stand proudly with folks like you looking down on everyone else from that special little patch of moral high ground you occupy. :)

[Solon]

51. Why not just get a reliable four banger?

That's what I have, and its gets about 35 MPG and has more torque than an S-10. Sure its over 16 years old, but its a convertible and cost about 2 grand. BTW: Its a '89 Toyota Celica, and let me tell you, that thing, for its size, and the fact that its a convertible, hauls a LOT of shit. Everything from big TVs to Mulch, Potting Soil(8 bags each), hell, even furniture and artwork(large glass planed painting, 6 by 4 feet).

[Dave Reynolds]

49. I don't drive a hybrid, and I am not ashamed.

People who get all self-righteous about what people fucking drive have too little to worry about.

I drive an Explorer, show me a hybrid that can pull a trailer with two horses in it, and I'll think about it.

Until then, drive your hybrid and leave your judgmental bullshit at home.

[NickB79]

60. You have a valid reason to drive a large vehicle

No one is saying buy a vehicle that doesn't suit your needs. But tell me, how many people that live in major cities and commute to work on a daily basis also need to pull around a horse trailer very often? The vast majority of people use vehicles for errands that hybrids and small cars could do just as well. You are not an average American in your needs, and that's fine. I won't judge anyone I see driving a big truck if it's loaded with tools or hauling trailers for their livelihood.

[politicat]

59. My non-hybrid was bought in 2000, when the waiting list for the Prius was

27 months long and our choice was buy a car or lose our jobs.

It
-- gets better milage than the hybrid Civic (we get 45 MPG in real world conditions; the HyCivic gets 36 mpg according to Consumer Reports)
-- has lower CO2 emissions (a gallon of gas produces approximately 19 pounds of CO2, so a higher mileage car puts less CO2 into the atmosphere) than a hyCivic
-- and has other emissions levels (confirmed by test) that are within 8% of a Prius' emissions profile at 4 years of age.

In 2001, at 10 months, the car had emission levels that were within 4% of a 10 month old Prius' emission levels. (I use the Prius because it is the model closest to ours in size and utility.) As the engine has aged, emissions have increased by a small percent per year; this is also true of hybrids. Further, due to the nature of the type of driving we do, a Prius would actually be less effective, because we don't do a lot of city driving. Our community is not heavily urbanized; it is a greenbelted, suburban-academic community that has multiple community hubs, joined by a regional transit service.

More importantly, the car is paid for, and can (and does) run E-85. (And we still get 45 MPG; on petro-gas, we get 50 to 53 MPG.)

We drive less than 30 miles a week; I work from home and/or bus to the office and my husband busses to his office.

I am not ashamed of myself and I refuse to allow you to make a judgment of me because I am making a decision that benefits the farmers in my region, is economically sustainable for myself and my community, and is as clean as a comparable model of hybrid.

[Southern Marylander]

69. My truck is in for a tune up

so, you think you can come on over with the ol' hybrid and tote my boat on down to the ramp for me this weekend?

Oh, and, If its not too much trouble for ya, I would appreciate you hauling my landscape trailer around for me next week so I can continue to work.

thanks in advance.

[Orsino]

75. Let's amend this, and say that we should all be ashamed...

...for not demanding more fuel-efficient vehicles long ago. Those of us who can buy new should consider hybrids first, in accordance with our real needs.

[benburch]

78. Fair enough! nt

[Zhade]

80. Wait, wait, wait - ASHAMED?

Um, what about those of us who can't AFFORD one?

With all due respect, that's a fucking ridiculous statement to make.

[JNelson6563]

81. Wish I could afford to

but since I work full time for no pay to overthrow the fascist regime I have to make due with my 93 Honda Civic.

I always get a kick out of remarks here on DU that demonstrate many Dems have no clue in regard to finances for everybody else. :eyes:

[Higans]

96. I ride a motorcycle

I get 65 miles per gallon. I love the planet, and the atmosphere. I am not ashamed that my motorcycle is not a hybrid because one point in fact is that when my battery finally dies, it won't be as much of a disposal problem as the battery in a hybrid. it makes me sick to see single occupant SUV's on the road. if more people road motorcycles, there would be less traffic congestion, less parking congestion, less need for oil, and less air pollution. as soon as they come out with a Hydrogen powered motorcycle, I will buy one.

your Prius was only $20,500. My motorcycle was only $1,200 and I bought it out right. yes it was used, but it only had 1,000 miles on it when I bought it. if it were new I could get the same bike for under $6,000 only the new model that looks a bit sleeker.

I realize that not every one can ride a motorcycle, but I suspect that a lot more can then those that do. I just wanted to mention that I don't own a hybrid, but I don't feel ashamed of myself at all.

[peacebird]

3. price premium? our 2005 Prius cost $23,000. What price premium?

we get 53mpg average in spring thru fall and 48mpg in winter (defrost on, and colder weather seems to negatively impact mileage)

we also get the benefit of knowing we are doing our part to help.

no battery probs so far (1 year) and from the prius boards i have visited it seems the later models are not having a battery problem, tho the first year model did.

[Ksec]

5. doing our part?

Tell that to the American carmakers you put out of work.

Look, I dont care if you people buy Chinese cars. Just dont act like it isnt hurting anyone and its such a great thing youre doing/

[peacebird]

8. if American car co's want my money - build a car i want to buy.

build a car that lasts, gets great mileage, and is better for the environment.

american co's keep building freaking huge SUV's and low mileage vehicles. Sorry - i'm not buying that crap anymore.

Build high mileage vehicles that last instead SUV's and Hummers. it's not me that's hurting the american car companies - it is their own shortsightedness and GREED. they saw SUV's as high profit and went in that direction. TOO FREAKIN BAD.

But don't YOU jump on my case over buying a hybrid - i AM doing my part for the world - i put solar panels on my roof and drive a hybrid. i buy ORGANIC even tho it is more expensive because organic production is better for the environment.

yes - i AM doing my part.

[DainBramaged]

12. Gee, I have solar lights outside, I buy organic too (costs more too)

I switched to propane from oil because it is cleaner not cheaper, and I boosted the millage on my 8 year old SUV from 14 to 18 mpg around town through simple tune up tricks and keeping the tires inflated. PLUS it's 4WD and I can cram a ton of stuff in the back. And tonight in the ice and snow when I pick up my daughter, I won't be afraid.

I do my part on my meager income, and when I can afford a new car, it will be one that gets me high gas millage and can fit a dryer in the box in the back.

[Southern Marylander]

70. Paper or plastic?

How do you choose when asked?

[DainBramaged]

71. Paper, because it burns in my fireplace. great firestarter.

[Southern Marylander]

72. Paper is a great fire starter

I like to soak it in gas first.:rofl:

[MASSAFRA]

10. The American Auto Industry

has ignored the what the people want by making bigger cars with quality going to hell. I bought a Prius. If I buy an American car and spend more money on gas then more money goes to the Middle East. I will not spend more money for a piece of rusting metal that the paint flakes off of in the first year just so I can say , "I bought an American car."

[Ksec]

11. No problem

Believe what you will.

I drive American made cars and have had great success with them . No rust, dependable , and Im still driving a 95 model Pontiac Gran Prix.

I dont let magazines make my decisions. I use my own experience.

[MASSAFRA]

13. Me to

I rented a new Chrysler van in Fl over my vacation and the paint was coming off already. This is not a ne problem. The mini-van that I bought in 1994 had paint coming off after three years.
The 1999 Olds Bravada I have has a check engine light that comes on every couple months and cost me a over $200 to replace a sensor.

[Ksec]

17. sure it did

and all your Japanese cars have been perfect. I figured that much.

[phylny]

82. We just sold a 1994 Plymouth Voyager with 188K miles on it

and the paint was fine.

I have a 2002 Chrysler T&C and it runs great, paint is still attached.

I will say the last car we bought was a Honda CR-V. We researched it, a Toyota Rav4, Ford Escape, and Saturn Vue. Once we drove them and reviewed other informatin, the Honda was superior in our view. I use it for work because I make visits to kids and drive a lot.

However, the Chrysler is still in the garage and we use it when we're ALL going somewhere, because 5 adult-sized people and a dog won't fit in the Honda :)

[peacebird]

16. if it makes you feel better my other car is a 1988 jeep cherokee

2 wheel drive, not the "grand" cherokee either. But hell - even it gets 24 mpg.

american car companies are not building the type cars i want to drive. period. if they did i would buy them.

maybe they will have a high mileage low emission car out when the jeep finally dies, if so - great. If not, another hybrid suits me fine.

[Solon]

33. So, you buy Canadan, cause I think that model is built in Ontario...

Just an FYI.

ON EDIT: Corrected Grammar, me stupid :dunce:

[DainBramaged]

14. NO NO NO this is about hybrids, take your anti-union anti-domestic car

bias to another thread. If you have a comment about the cost differential and Consumer Reports I'll be glad to respond.

Ya see, you folks can bash the Union jobs and Domestic auto industry all you want, but not now. We know you hate Domestic cars. what do you think of the article?

[peacebird]

20. funny - i thought this thread was about bashing drivers of hybrids

i addressed the article, in my experience it is wrong.

btw - i have nothing against the unions. As for the domestic auto industry - like i said before: try building something i want to buy, and i will buy it. Think high mileage, low emissions.

But as long as it's a choice of gas-guzzlers i will pass.

[DainBramaged]

27. hmmm, have you ever looked at CAFE averages for all of the manufacturers?

they are supposed to meet a specific average, but Toyota and Honda get extra credits from their hybrids, hence they "appear" to get better millage as brands than domestics.

Manufacturers can earn CAFE “credits” to offset deficiencies in their CAFE performances. Specifically, when the average fuel economy of either the passenger car or light truck fleet for a particular model year exceeds the established standard, the manufacturer earns credits. The amount of credit a manufacturer earns is determined by multiplying the tenths of a mile per gallon that the manufacturer exceeded the CAFE standard in that model year by the amount of vehicles they manufactured in that model year. These credits can be applied to any three consecutive model years immediately prior to or subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned. The credits earned and applied to the model years prior to the model year for which the credits are earned are termed “carry back” credits, while those applied to model years subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned are known as “carry forward” credits. Failure to exercise carry forward credits within the three years immediately following the year in which they are earned will result in the forfeiture of those credits. Credits cannot be passed between manufacturers or between fleets, e.g., from domestic passenger cars to light trucks.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm

[peacebird]

30. CAFE averages? Who cares? What part of 53mpg don't you understand?

[DainBramaged]

35. (Sigh) I have a picture of my Grandfather with his horse

from 1910. I guess he had the best CAFE average of all. But his horse also had blinders on so he didn't get distracted.

Enjoy your hybrid, please. You'll never get my point, even though I certainly get yours.:sarcasm:

[peacebird]

37. believe me - i DO enjoy my hybrid.

try using a little of your energy convincing the american auto industry that they too could score a homerun if they gave us liberal greenies a fuel efficient low emission vehicle... instead of whining because Toyota already has.

[phylny]

83. We looked into a hybrid at the same time our daughter was doing an

engineering research project for college.

In my area - mostly rural with some stoplights, VERY hilly (at times, mountainous), a hybrid would have done us very little good.

[peacebird]

86. living just outside charlottesville i drive south to the mountains

every night when i leave work. it does get poor mileage climbing Afton mountain but it still averages 53mpg overall in the spring through fall and 48mpg in the winter.

it would only do better if i were driving in the city full time instead of mostly in the country, but it still gets great mileage and it carried my family and luggage (hubby and his parents are all three 6'4") comfortably on a road trip to Philly.

[Solon]

39. You know what I see, I see anti-union AMERICAN auto makers outsource...

AMERICAN jobs in the hopes of making up for CEOs and other's mistakes, they are no more American than Toyota or Subaru, that much is clear. I would love for the foriegn owned car manufacturers to have their plants Unionized, nothing would make me happier, but this is one of those choices where you have to choose the lesser of two evils, whether its an American Owned company with Mexican or Canadian made cars, or Japanese or German owners with American made cars, so, given this situation, buying from the foriegn owners seems to be the lesser of two evils.

[NV Whino]

25. There was a thread earlier on this

These "foreign" cars are made in the USA while Ford and Chevy are outsourcing to Canada and Mexico.

[DainBramaged]

28. This is the hybrid thread, not the "top ten I hate Domestics" thread

[DainBramaged]

6. Did you read the article or the chart? Or just assumed it was incorrect?

It's Consumer Reports, they are all powerful and all knowing They chose the 10 best cars and all of them are foreign. How could you disagree?

[madrchsod]

19. my family have owned both Chrysler and Honda cars

for the last 20 years both makes have given us excellent mileage,cost of repair,and number of miles before they are scrapped. i drive a 97 dodge interpid with 240,000 miles, it gets 25-30 mpg, only major repair was the trans,and the engine still has equal compression across all cylinders.i guess the workers made a good car that day

[Southern Marylander]

26. Alternate fuel autos no bargain at this time.

Good thread for my first post here.

As far as dependable goes, I have an 82 full size bronco with 323,000 miles that is still going strong.

I have a 98 grand cherokee 8 cylinder that has 160,000 on it and is still going strong.

I have a 2001 dodge ram 2500 quad cab that is running like new at 94,000 miles.

when you can show me the non American built car that can give that dependability and still pull my 7000 lbs of boat down the road, I might think about putting an American Auto Worker out of a job.

until then? I guess I will pollute the air with my emissions while you pollute the landfills with your used batteries.

as of right now today, there is not alternative to an oil based fuel engine that is worthy of attention by the majority of buyers in this country.

I do however wish that the research into an alternative fuel would be sped up just a bit. Nothing would make me happier than to drive down the road knowing that I am not harming the environment.. but, as of today, that option is not there.

[DainBramaged]

29. Welcome to DU, some beginning, but thanks for your support

[jmowreader]

54. You know used batteries are recyclable, right?

And since we're talking about MASSIVE batteries, they almost have to be.

These cars have industrial batteries in them. The slick thing about an industrial battery is that you don't change the whole thing when you drop a cell, you just replace the dead cell.

But you're right about one thing: none of the Japanese makers make a 3/4-ton truck; they're all half-tons. They do, however, tend to make them in North America. Nissan's trucks are made in Kentucky, Toyota's engines are made in Alabama (the trucks are made in Mexico, though), Honda's trucks are made in Ohio, Isuzu's I-280 is a rebadged Chevrolet Colorado, Mazda's B-series trucks are rebadged Ford Rangers, and the Mitsubishi Raider is a rebadged Dodge Dakota. It's a bit hard for me to say buying an I-280 or a Raider is putting an American autoworker out of a job when the only thing the American in the Chevrolet plant did different when he made the Japanese-branded truck is stick an Isuzu logo on it. There's an Isuzu dealer right up the street from my store, and sometimes I walk over to the bread store that's on the other side of the Isuzu lot to get a pastry. I looked at the I-280. The car is made in Louisiana. The car contains 95 percent American content--the only friggin thing in the whole car that's imported is the transmission, which is a Getrag imported from Germany. When 95 percent of a car is made in the US, and the car is assembled in the US, I don't give a shit what label is on the front, it's an American car.

[MadisonProgressive]

21. Maybe because he owns a Prius, as I do.

If Detroit could make a good car I'd buy it. As a matter of fact this is the first foreign car I've ever bought. I finally decided I was being a sucker for buying American just to encourage Detroit to make more of the same crap. Detroit needs to change, and when it does, I'll gladly go back to buying American ONLY.

[politicat]

62. Actually, it's the MTBE that causes the drop in mileage in the winter.

True of most cars and trucks. MTBE is an additive that is supposed to reduce smog and raise Oxygen levels in gasoline, and is used in the winter when ozone levels rise.

However, MTBE may contribute to smog (as well as polluting ground water) because it lowers the MPG rate of most vehicles, by 5-7 MPG. Thus, people use more gas in the winters, and the effective smog rate goes up.

[Orsino]

74. The price premium is the difference between that of the Prius...

...and that of a Corolla, apparently--the Toyota with a comparable engine. We do have to spend more for hybrids, though the size of the premium is only clear in, say, the case of the Accord.

[Warpy]

31. If you're interested in economy, you're better off buying a well

built econobox for now, one that delivers the same highway mileage or better as the hybrids do. City mileage so far has been a disappointment in hybrids.

The econobox may use marginally more gas in stop and go, city driving, but the drops of extra gas you use every week are far outweighed by the lack of damage you'll be doing to the environment when you swap out those hybrid batteries in 4 or 5 years. You'll certainly be ahead of the game when total cost of driving is factored in, especially if you do a lot of highway driving.

You'll get used to the sneers and smirks...

[Southern Marylander]

36. sneers and smirks?

When I was driving around the area all day every day for my job, I had a Geo Metro, three cylinder.
I got the looks like I was a poverty stricken bum, but I could not have cared less. I did not need the big engine, or the towing ability to perform my job. So, F-em all that had an issue with my "roller skate" car.

people just need to drive what they need to drive. I dont look any differently at the guy driving the F-350 than I do the guy driving the Honda Civic. I just assume that for whatever reason they have, that vehicle fits their personal needs.

[benburch]

55. But enconomy wasn't the point.

Hybrid cars were designed for low emissions. The 2002 Prius I drive qualifies as a SULEV.

I drive it because I give a damn about the planet.

[sendero]

41. Consumer Reports...

...is and always has been a bad joke.

Without a crystal ball to tell them what the cost of fuel will be in 1, 2, 5 or 10 years, how can they even make such an analysis? They have to guess.

I could be easily convinced that hybrids are only marginally, and in certain special circumstances, actually more efficient that conventional vehicles. Give it a little time, the principles used (the recovery of wasted energy in braking for example) are sound and it is only a matter of time before these vehicles are perfected and really are a huge advantage.

[Southern Marylander]

46. Yes the Principles are sound

And the companies need to see the vehicles in use to perfect them, but I do not enjoy the economic status to be used as a test driver for them on my dime.

Those that do drive them now are doing more for the future than they are for the present.

God bless them.

[salin]

53. I will take my 50 mpg that I have generally been getting

in my new Prius and consider it more efficient than any car being driven by anyone I know (family, friends and coworkers). Just saying...

Your point of the techonology improving the difference is well taken. My mother drives an eariler model year (and earlier model) and my fuel consumption is much better than hers, and hers is still better than most. That is just in one model evolution (eg teh 2001-03 style/body vs the 04-06 models.)

[sendero]

56. Well...

... I salute those who are able and willing to drive such cars, because there has to be a market before any manufacturer will put serious effort into their development. And yes, 50 mpg is damn good, only a diesel can get close to that.

Me, I drive a 90s Mazda Protege with a 1.5 liter engine and 5 speed. It gets 30 around town and 38 on the highway, and that's not bad for a less than $3K car :) Wifey drives a late model Civic and it gets a couple MPG better than my Mazda (but is a helluva lot more fun to drive :))

[salin]

58. Those numbers sound good

I drive cars almost until they drop (the replaced car was a 10 yr old Mazda 626 that got decent mileage -but nothing like yours.) This is the first time I have ever bought new - and years ago I had decided that the next car would be something for "joy" if I could afford it - at that time I was living in California and thought a Mazda Miata would be a fab reward for years of not spending ... even when my income finally moved beyond the poverty level years of paying dues. When the time came around - I was already in love with driving my mother's older Prius. So this was my first big "treat/splurge/reward." And while I am absolutely loving it... I can honestly say that at no point earlier in life could have I afforded it (I always bought used) - nor would the sacrifice to afford it seem to be a "wise" choice.

[Beaverhausen]

47. My employer pays me $720 a year more because of my Prius

under their car pool/ride share program, so over 10 years that will be $7200.

Add to that the tax break (only $500 for me but for those who bought this year it was over $2000), a savings on insurance, and the joy of knowing I'm spewing little to no pollution (priceless) into the air and I say it's more than worth it!

[Orsino]

76. Is that money for driving the Prius...

...or for carpooling?

[Beaverhausen]

87. For driving the Prius

They offer incentives for carpooling, riding a bike, taking public trans. and driving an electric or hybrid car. A lot of bigger companies do this now.

[Orsino]

99. That's cool.

Wish my company would pat me on the back for driving my Prius.

[salin]

48. These costs comparisons always assume

that folks buying the hybrid would buy a less expensive car (often based on size) and then use that as the base line of the "cost recovery."

On a recent trip back to the dealership where I bought my Prius in December (for free carwashes on Saturdays) - I pointed out that had I not bought the Prius - I was not going to buy a Corolla - that they ought to ask customers what other cars they were considering. My previous car was a Mazda 626 v6 fully loaded (I bought it used) - cost now - same as the Prius. The other car I had my eye on for several years was the Mazda Miata - cost difference for the versions of each (the Miata I would have bought vs the level of *fairly loaded* Prius that I bought) - about $500 (more for the Prius.) Now add that the depreciation is far less on my Prius - (e.g. kick that factor into the figures) and these cost comparisons for me - mean little. All because the initial presumption was FAR wrong. I bought the Prius for its technology - fuel and otherwise.

I am not saying I am saving tons due to the Prius (though I have realized some real savings at the pump on the new car compared to the ten year old car) - but I am not starting with a *cost deficit* that is often presumed in these write-ups (as in I paid thousands more for this car that I would not have otherwise spent.) I know that my mother, also a Prius driver, also paid the same for the car as for her second choice at the time. I would guess that is the case for many buyers making the presumptions of money lost from the sale that needs to be made up in gas savings in these types of comparisons.

[corporate_mike]

50. Premiums will drop as more and more people buy hybrids

[DainBramaged]

52. Have to go, got to pick up my Daughter from work

In my piece of shit unworthy SUV that is all I can afford.:sarcasm:

[wuushew]

89. I hope you don't actually own an SUV

n/t

[DainBramaged]

90. I guess you didn't read all of my replies (sigh). I do, so crucify me.

[robcon]

57. I'll buy one in a few years.

Hybrid 2.0 or 3.0 will probably make sense. The current models don't.

[IDemo]

61. '93 Toyota here with 39k miles. A hybrid would be superfluous in our case

[salin]

65. Indeed it would

:D

[IDemo]

73. Point being, mpg means nothing when weighed against the energy bottom line

Quibbling about 30 mpg vs. 45 mpg may strike many as a relevant or even significant topic. But the fuel economy of the latest automobile models, hybrid or not, pales against the energy savings to be realized by simply driving and consuming less.

Can't have that however, can we, my fellow WalMartians?

[spanone]

64. I disagree. I own a Honda Civic Hybrid.

It cost about 2,000.00 more than a regular honda civic when I got it in 2003. I got a 2,000.00 tax break for buying green. I average about 45 MPG. So I feel pretty good when I go past the gas stations for 4 or 5 weeks without stopping. Uses regular too!

[upi402]

66. none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price

that's why i got a tiny 4-banger gas sipper!

[NickB79]

67. Wonder how that comparison looks with $4/gallon gasoline?

I think we'll be lucky if gas "only" costs $4/gallon 5 years from now. Hell, I fully expect to see at least $3.25/gallon this summer, with $4/gallon within the next two years.

[DainBramaged]

68. Back, found another interesting article

http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/news/blankstory.asp?ID=5487

<snip>
The cost of batteries will come down as technology improves and more companies take up hybrid engines. Toyota announced a tie-up with Nissan in September, which will see the Renault-owned car company packaging Prius' Hybrid Synergy Drive system into future models.

Toyota lowered the price significantly on the Prius battery pack, from $4500 on the first model to around $3000 on the latest version, though unlike Honda, which offers an eight year warranty on the battery, Toyota only offers five years.

Despite the dramatic price drop, hybrid ownership remains a nod to better fuel economy, not financial savings. CarPoint's review of the Prius, published in October, compared the hybrid's fuel consumption to a similarly specified Toyota Corolla, and reached the conclusion it would take 15 years before the Prius' fuel economy paid off the extra purchase price.

Add battery replacement every eight years to this equation, and replacement parts costs as the vehicle exceeds its planned life of ten years and components wear out, and owners have no chance of ever seeing a dollar back.
<snip>

So Consumer reports isn't the only one who understands how much of a premium a hybrid costs over conventional 4 cyl. cars.

[debbierlus]

77. Forgive me. But, what if you don't have the money for a NEW car.

I drive a Toyota Camry - 98 - beige, boring, and RELIABLE.

I do NOT have the money for a new car. Plus, isn't the waiting list like a year long.

I have no problem buying a hybrid. I just financially CAN'T.

[Dover]

79. What, no mention of the positive effect on the environment of hybrids?

Is it all about the money?

Letterman had a really funny comedian on the other night who did a lot of political/policy jokes.
He made fun of the fact that we had so much advanced technology...he could even use a cell phone to instantly call a friend across thousands of miles without wires and in addition, could take a photo of his butt and send it too...but we just couldn't seem to find a way to make a better, cleaner and more energy efficient vehicle. What are the odds?

Then he went on to describe some redneck coming up with a car that ran on ketchup who is visited by the big oil hitmen who don't waste a moment putting an end to him and his ketchup machine.

[NickB79]

88. The Honda Fit will possibly be available as a hybrid for $16,000

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11519891/

"TOKYO - Honda Motor Co. plans to sell a low-cost hybrid car, a version of its popular Fit subcompact, a Japanese daily reported, signaling the automaker’s long-term commitment to the fuel-sipping powertrain.

Japan’s third-biggest auto maker aims to sell the Fit hybrid as early as next year for around 1.4 million yen ($11,790), or about 200,000 yen more than the gasoline-only version, likely making it the world’s least expensive hybrid at $16,840, the leading Japanese business daily said on Wednesday.

The model could be launched in the business year starting April 2007 and would be sold globally, the paper said."

Basically it will do as well as a Civic hybrid (50 mpg) yet cost less. It's a hatchback with multiple seat-folding options, so it will haul cargo easily making it an ideal family car. If they can get these into the US in the next two years, I will buy one for sure, as there is nothing comparable in US-made cars.

[triguy46]

95. I couldn't make either a Prius or Civic hybrid pay...

over an 06 Civic gas over a 5 year period. I used purchase price, and a range of gas prices as variables, with all else held constant. The civic gas won hands down.