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There is a red/blue divide in this country

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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:55 PM
Original message
There is a red/blue divide in this country
I just saw an ad for Steve Westly who is running for Governor of California against Phil Angelides in the June primary. Three issues were highlighted but the first and loudest one was: "I'm pro-choice!" While SD and Miss. pass draconian laws to limit women's freedom and rights over their own bodies, California candidates want to highlight their pro-choice credentials. Sometimes, I just don't get how one country can be so divided over this. Angelides is the more progressive candidate so maybe Westly is trying to make inroads into that support.

On a related note: The two Dem candidates are running neck and neck with Arnie. Here's the latest field poll results:


General election

Schwarzenegger (R) 39 (41)
Angelides (D) 39 (47)

Schwarzenegger (R) 37 (40)
Westly (D) 41 (46)

Democratic primary

Angelides 26 (37)
Westly 18 (26)


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/3/2/11286/95125
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. draconian?
and do you/they mean Mo (as in Missouri) instead of Miss (as in Mississippi)?

It is a shorter trip from Rapid City, SD to Canada than it is to California. Of course, Canada is probably more progressive than California. There are more people in San Fransisco than the entire state of SD, so there is an urban/rural difference there. SD attitudes are perhaps not that much different than the attitudes found in rural California.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. It is more than red and blue states, it is North-South and Rural-Urban
First issue, the Rural, Urban and Suburban divide

The big issue is often "Is the state Rural, Urban or Suburban?". It might sound strange to think Suburbans have a different outlook than Urban areas but that has been the case since the First Suburbs came into existence in the late 1800s. Furthermore depending on how you look at the population (Some Suburbs are today really "inner city" while some Cities include their Suburbs) the population is roughly 1/3 in each (i.e. 1/3 of Americans live iN Rural Areas, 1/3 live in Suburban Areas, 1/3 live in Urban Areas).

In states dominated by Urban Areas (Such as New York City) there is a demand for Government Services and Infrastructure. Churches, while important are Secondary to Government and Business needs. Taxes are viewed as necessary evils but are raised to take care of the City and its inhabitants. Urban areas tend to be more liberal than Rural Areas when it comes to Individual rights AND Economic Rights (With most urban Areas embracing social liberalism as part of Liberal Economic ideas). Urban areas tend to be Democratic more do to Economic reasons than Social Reasons.

In states dominated by Rural Areas, you have a different social Structure, Churches are the center of their communities, more do to fact Business and Governments prefer Urban Areas (Central locations for both Urban and Rural Populations). While this sounds like The Rural Areas have very little in Common with the Urban Areas, that is NOT the case, most Rural residents spend some time in Urban Areas (Or have relatives there) thus they have a better idea of urban plight than Suburbanites. They value Urban areas, for urban areas act like super community center and thus tend to have a greater affection for the urban core than the Suburbs (and tend to support aide to Urban Areas more than Suburbanites do). On the other hand like a lot of people Rural areas have to go to the Malls in the Suburbs but it is NOT the same as 50 years ago where going downtown even for Rural hicks was a big treat. Rural Areas tend to be very Conservative on Social Agendas (Do to the Greater need for Community togetherness than any actual hatred on minorities) and wants the Government to pave their roads (and will accept higher taxes for such services). The Rural areas with their greater sense of Community (Which they tend to share with Urban Centers) tend to vote how their father's voted and how their friends are voting. Thus outside of the South prior to 1960 the Rural North Voted Republican (and the Rural South Voted Democratic). This varied from county to county (For example Western Pennsylvania was a heavy Rural Democratic Area, as was Southern Illinois). Since the 1960s the Rural North tend to still vote Republican but it is the Rural South that have switched, from the Democrats to the GOP. In recent decades they is a tendency to view rural areas like Suburban areas, but Rural Areas still do not like Corporations and (except for the south) support Unions.

In the case of Suburbs the situation is different again, while Government tend to be in Urban Centers, Businesses have been moving to Suburbs since at least the 1950s (if not since WWII). Churches exist, but given the Suburbs embrace of the Automobile not even the center of their Communities (If the suburbs have any center). The key difference between Suburbs and Urban areas is that Suburbs tend to be more Liberal than Rural areas when it comes to Social Rights (i.e. not hostile to Gays) but more hostile when it comes to economic issues (Suburbs like calls for Lower Taxes even if that means the poor are left homeless and they believe they can pave they own roads so why should they pave anyone's else's roads Suburbanites tend to oppose unions and support Corporations). These areas tend to be Republican.

North-South-West-West Coast Divide
On top of this you have the North-South Divide. This was notice in America by 1700 and it was the biggest obstacle to uniting these United States. It still exists. Now do to the expansion of the Country after the Revolution and attempts to reconstruct the South after the Civil War (and the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s) the differences between the North and South have blurred but if you look deep enough you will still see it raise its ugly head. Roughly if you take the Mason-Dixon Line and continue it west till the Kansas border that is the divide (Notice this takes in BOTH sides of the Ohio River, People from the South tend to settle both sides of that river, while people from new England tended to Settle along the Great Lakes, while Pennsylvania's tended to settle in the areas between these two groups (and you had mixing of all three groups in this area of the Country).

This North-South Divide is important for how the Puritans and the Cavaliers viewed themselves can still be seen today. The Puritans settled New England and their Descendent's settled along the Great Lakes. In the Mid West they mixed with the Germans From Pennsylvania. The Puritans wanted Government to provide a Stable government AND HELP SOCIETY AS A WHOLE. They believed in Government intervention in the family when it was needed, they believe that Government should build and maintain Roads. They believe it was they duty to their Community to make the Community better by helping out in the Community and doing things good for the Community (Making the Community as a whole better).

On the other hand the Southern Cavaliers came to the US NOT to settle or establish a City on the Hill (as had the Puritans) but to make money and NOT carrying how that was done. Thus Slavery was horrible to them (as it was to the Puritans) but unlike Puritans they were more than willing to use and abuse Slaves. There was good economic reasons for this attitude to slaves but it just brought into the South more people who thought like the Cavaliers. They sense of Community was NOT to built a Community Church (or other public Building like the Puritans) but to meet and patrol the Roads for runway Slaves. A new Church would NOT do them any economic good, but catching a Slave would. While Slavery had always existed in the Historical period till the 1800s, among Christians it was always condemned as bad (Through not bad enough to get you kicked out of your church). In the South Slavery caused the South to become more and more brutal and less and less intellectual. It takes a certain level of brutality to keep Slaves, you have to beat them and even kill them to keep them as Slaves. Whites in the South early on learned to act individually and as a member of a group brutally to Slaves (and this brutality by whites to black lead to the same brutality among whites). When you are that brutal you want simple answers and you want to KNOW what you are doing is RIGHT, thus the South's greater call to Fundamentalist Christianity than the North. Fundamentalist leave each person interpret the Bible. Thus Fundamentalist look at the Bible Passages that accept Slavery as justification for Slavery and the brutality needed to maintain Slavery (and later on Segregation).

This difference between the North and South has played throughout American History. At the time of the Revolution it was believed that the South would expand faster than the North. While today we can see this did not happen, but even a late as the Civil War Cotton raised on the back of Slaves was over 90% of the US Exports. The North was less dependent on Exports do to the North Greater self-reliance (and the Puritan Work Ethic). Thus even till today you see the North-South Split.

Discussion of Rural-Urban-Suburban, North-South and Red-Blue States divide

I go into the above for you to fully understand the Urban-Suburban-Rural divide you MUST take into consideration the North-South Divide. A further complication is the "West" i.e. the West west of Kansas but East of the West Coast states. This area is extremity dry and hard to grow crops without irrigation. A large part of this area is still owned by the Federal Government for no one really wanted it in the late 1800s and throughout the 20th Century (and even less people want to own it today). This differentiates the "West" from the North (Pennsylvania through Kansas) the South (Carolinas to Texas) and even the West Coast. The difference is who owes the land, in the West it is the Government.

Now the West is mostly Rural but has huge Federal owned lands. The Rural people here want to be "Free" of the Government, but want the Government to protect them from any disaster (and to improve Society). It is thus a Curious mix of the rural South and the rural North. Communities (especially in the Northern Plains) tend to be built around their Community Churches (like the rural North) but once you in the area where cattle grazing dominates you get that demand for a right to do with Government land (and the hell with everyone else) as I see fit attitude of the American South. This area wants the Government "Off their Back" but also want the Government to pave their roads (and to keep the Government owned land open to them). The GOP catered to them by Road and dam projects (The Dams to help with the Water shortage of the West). Outside of Denver this area is overwhelming Rural and GOP.

Unlike the West, the South is an area of heavy Rural Population. Thus like the West it wants Government projects to help the area, but do not want to pay taxes (They is a major disconnect throughout the South between Good Government Services, Nice Communities, Parks etc and Taxes, Molly Ivin once noted that while see was with some fellow Texans visiting a Northern City, her fellow Texans likes the Parks, roads etc, but then complains about the high taxes AND NEVER CONNECT THAT THE HIGH TAXES PAYS FOR THE NICE COMMUNITY). This disconnect between Government Services and Taxes is true throughout the entire Rural South. The South also has a disconnect with the concept of Community. The best example is to compare Rural Pennsylvania with Rural Texas. If you live outside an Incorporated City in Texas your next level of Government is the County. This is true of MOST States in the South. Pennsylvania on the other hand has since 1688 provided NOT only a County Government to every part of the state but a Local Government (i.e. a Township). You go to the deepest part of the Allegheny Mountains in Pennsylvania you will NOT find a place without a Local Township, Borough or City. Pennsylvania has NEVER permitted someone to live in an Unincorporated area of the State, Pennsylvania has never had unincorporated areas.

On the other hand Texas has huge areas of unincorporated areas. While form a local Government when the locals will NOT participate in it? Also by NOT have a Local Government you minimize local opposition to the people who control the County. This is part of that North-South Divide.

Now under the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 (which is how the every state was divided up and settled except for the 13 original States, Vermont and Texas) you had counties and townships. In Texas where the South had an opportunity NOT to have township, township did NOT come into existence. The reason was to have a township you had to have a township center (i.e. a town). In most of the South Townships (If they still exists) exist only on paper (In fact Mississippi abolished not only its Townships but its Counties around 1900 and replaced them with "Cities", this was done to divide up the rural blacks and concentrate the small town white votes).

Now the above is background, for the real divide today is Urban-Suburban-Rural divide. The more Urban a state is the more it is a Red State, the more Rural a State is the More Blue it is. The fight is NOT between these two areas (They tend to cancel each other out) but in Suburbia. The GOP has been catering to Suburbanites for over 40 years, first by offering them "Green" to get away from the "Black" (more the 1950s and 1960s than afterward), then talking about "Crime" (yes another race issue). At the same time telling these Suburbanites to vote GOP so that the GOP will lower they taxes.

The call for Lower Taxes echos in the Suburbs, and the Rural South and West. Gun Control (or the Fear of Gun Control) keep even more Westerns and Southern AND more importantly Rural Northern loyal to the GOP. Abortion helps the GOP with the Rural South and the Catholic Vote and generally causes the GOP little harm among Suburbanites (Who tend to support Abortion Rights). The GOP's biggest fear is that the Supreme Court might actually rule that the States can abolish Abortion. If that should happen many suburban women will vote Democratic to prevent making Abortion illegal (and take many of their Husbands, Fathers and sons with them).

The second biggest fear of the GOP is that the Supreme Court would rule that the Second Amendment does cover an individual right to own a firearm. many Rural Northern would than vote Democratic for they would no longer fear that the Democrats would take they guns away (and this is a big fear of the GOP, remember Northern Rural dwellers tend also to have strong community ties, thus if one goes they all go).

As to the West Coast, it is most Suburban (Like Connecticut, New Jersey and Eastern Pennsylvania Eastern Maryland and Northern Virginia). In the election of 2000 and 2004 the GOP lost these areas do to enough Suburbanites fearing the lost of Abortion Rights, the GOP will lose even more if the Supreme Court does rule on Abortion Rights (New Jersey even elected a pro-Choice GOP Governor a few years back). Any Republican running in a Suburban dominated State has to run on Abortion Rights as does any Democrat.

The opposite rule applies to the Rural South, even its Religious Fundamentalist, its larger rural population and its history of Slavery (and thus simple solutions) advocating making abortion illegal is the only way to get elected.

In the North (Outside of the East Coast) it is more complex. Rural areas tend to vote against Abortion, but abortion access is generally within reach. Thus it tends to be only an issue people go one way or another and then also tell the people it is up to the Supreme Court of the US to decide if Pennsylvania can abolish Abortion (People tend to forget Governor Casey, while opposing Abortion did veto one Anti-Abortion law on the ground it was unconstitutional and he did not want to spend tax dollars on defending it, the legislature made the require corrections that lead up the present rule on Abortion).

My point I am trying to make here is the situation is less Red-white States as it is a mixture of Urban-Suburban-Rural Divide and a continuing North-South Divide (Most of the West and West Coast coming under Puritan/Northern trend in Government). Furthermore given the mixture of these cultures the country is more purple than a lot of people would like to admit. And finally give the GOP its due, the GOP has run its basic coalition since Nixon (Rural Northerns, Southerns and Suburbanites) to victory. People tend to forget the weakness leak are the Rural Northerns, many of whom would vote Democratic except for the Gun Control Issue. The next biggest group are Suburbanites, who will switch parties over Abortion.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I hope you post this as it's own thread but a few comments
While I mostly agree, a coulple more issues to consider. First, a state like California has a history of treating women better. Men wanted white women to move here and so the laws were more favorable towards them. California also attracted immigrants who wanted to leave behind thier old lives and often were less desiring of accepting the old community values and church hierachy. Without the strong closed family and small town culture, Californians were more open to liberal social values. Also, California was/is a state of mixed cultures. To get along with your neighbors you have to be more accepting of cultures different than your own. This is true of many urban areas. You can't be so rigid in your cultural values when so many around you have a different culture.

I'm too tired tonight to comment further. Interesting post and I hope others respond and offer opinions.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. My point is it is more complex than Red Blue State
And women's rights is one of the Complexities (In fact while the Movement to give Women Rights started in New York in the 1840s, women's right to vote started in the West after the Civil War. The movement to give Women the Right to Vote really took off with the Universal Adoption of Secret Ballot in 1892 (The prior Excuse that a Man was voting for his family was no longer valid, his wife could no longer find out who he voted for). This movement started first in Wyoming when it was a Territory (When it became a State it had to DROP women's right to vote for Congress would not admit it as a state with that provision, but changed back within a few years).

From the West it spread to the Mid-West and East coast States, but the American South was the most reluctant to give Women the Right to Vote (and thus the need for the Amendment to the Constitution to require all states to give women the right to vote in Federal Elections).

I did not mention it for while important, women's right is a subset of the North-South and Urban-Rural divide. These later two are the big divides in this country today.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. the real divide, the one that matters
is the divide between the haves and have nots

the haves use a small part of their money on media to to divide the have nots over wedge issues that matter to a small percentage of the population.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Bingo. All of this "north-south", "red-blue" stuff is a crock, IMHO.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I guess I don't understand your point
in this circumstance. California races are some of the most expensive in the nation. I found it interesting that the haves chose to advocate pro-choice in California when in other regions it would be the opposite. I do think the wedge issues are divisive and used to hinder populist ideas.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. morning kick (mostly for happyslug's long post)
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