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***Absolutely horrible new law that punishes social workers; H.R. 4437***

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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:13 PM
Original message
***Absolutely horrible new law that punishes social workers; H.R. 4437***
Edited on Fri Mar-03-06 03:56 PM by tjwash
I normally don’t get too involved in immigration, or illeg***Absolutely Horrible Law that punishes Social Workers; H.R.al immigration issues. However my wife, who is a social worker, brought this to my attention.

A new law was recently passed on Dec. 17th of 2005; H.R. 4437 The Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005. It was sponsored by James Sensenbrenner, and passed with 92 percent of Republicans for, and 82 percent of Democrats against.

In a nutshell, the law states that any church or non-profit organization is guilty of committing a federal offense, if they give any assistance whatsoever to illegal immigrants. It makes no difference if the organization in question, has any knowledge the status of the person they are helping or not. The penalties include fines, jail time, and property seizure.

The big problems with the law, are, that it does nothing to strengthen the borders, and curb the flow of illegal immigration. It punishes non-profit social assistance organizations, and churches that may be feeding, or providing shelter to illegal aliens, even though they may not know that they are illegal. The kick in the head from this whole thing? There is nothing in the law that punishes the for-profit places that continue to exploit illegal labor, such as Farms, Hotels, or Restaurants.

Say someone like my wife is working at her job in the domestic violence shelter. A woman shows up there, beaten, and bloody, with a kid in tow with her abusive boyfriend driving around looking for her. She places this woman in a VDV center. It turns out later that this woman produced a fake ID. They can throw my wife in jail, and the shelter can get fined, and eventually get shut down because their funding gets yanked.

And there are many other possible scenarios that can be made out here. Someone shows up to a free clinic with a case of pneumonia. Oh, you can’t produce an ID, and you have brown skin. Could you kind of out in the street and slowly suffocate please?

Someone comes to a shelter that’s starving, and it’s 10 degrees below zero outside and they need assistance. Sorry, you can’t produce your papers, do us a favor and crawl into the alley and die will you?

The ones that get fined and punished because of this new law, are people who have dedicated their lives to helping out others in need that are less fortunate than us. Most unfortunate people that happen to need help, are not what we would consider the cream of our society. And yes, illegal immigrants happen to be part of that. Yes, I know. It’s a horrible thing, helping out someone that everyone else despises isn’t it? Hell that may be something that Christ would have actually done.

Excellent article from The independent media center of Philadelphia.

This law also turns any relative, employer, co-worker, or friend of who helps an undocumented migrant an "alien smuggler" and a felon, punishable by imprisonment. The criminalized forms of assisting an undocumented immigrant could be as innoccous as driving a neighbor to the grocery store or providing shelter to a survivor of domestic violence. It is in direct violation of the Civil Rights Act, which states that public services cannot be denied on the basis of national origin; suddenly, hospital emergency rooms would have to ask for immigration documents before admitting a pregnant woman. An undocumented woman could call the police on her abusive husband and find herself locked up instead, for the "crime" of living in the United States without a visa. This law would empower police to demand "papers" of anyone, at any time, forcing even United States citizens to carry proof of their US Citizenship with them at all times. It would open the door for selective enforcement to be used for purposes of ethnic and political intimidation. It would criminalize student visa holders who drop a class or work visa holders who change jobs. It would put three million US Citizen children of undocumented immigrants in danger of losing their parents at any minute. The bill would also make it much easier for US government officials to deny citizenship to lawful permanent residents (green card holders) who apply for naturalization, at their own discretion and on the basis of secret evidence that is not subject to review.


This law, is a disaster. It helps no one, and only adds to the mountains of bureaucracy that NFP social assistance organizations already have to endure. Like it or not, the reality is, that there are people here illegally. There are those here that do not like that, and to them I say, too fucking bad, that’s reality, deal with it.

The scariest ramifications of this law, is that it also gives the feds license to check our “papers” anytime they want.

I don’t know about any of you out there, but the thoughts of a Gestapo asking for “your papers please” and doing it in the name of “the homeland” sends a cold chill down my spine.

So go ahead, flame me for giving a shit...
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. No flames here. I agree with you. That is a terrible law.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. flamed? here? Did you just get back from a visit to FR?
Who the hell imagines Senseless-brenner is remotely capable of writing a decent, caring or even necessary law?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. There have been lengthy arguments on this board over this issue
of immigration in general. Some on the left believe illegal immigration is a threat to American workers. I don't know if anyone on the left would find a law going after agencies that help immigrants a good or moral idea. Most would rather go after employers. But the point is, there are DUers who want the borders sealed. I know. I've argued with them.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is a terrible law for a dozen reasons. Including that I always believed
that true churches had the responsibility to provide refuge to people. It's a law that helps turn America, once the land of the free and home of the brave, into a frightened, fascist country.
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. As long as the churches DON'T accept taxpayer dollars
and use only private donations for helping illegals, I have no problem with it.

But the money would be better spent helping people to get legalized. I don't care
if they work here as long as they join the rest of the slobs like me (and you) who
foot our own bill by paying taxes.

After what my family went through to get my husband into this country legally,
and after paying thousands of dollars per year in taxes, I resent any implications
that I should dip into my pockets to pay for people who are not here legally.

I can see no logical reason why I should support people who pay no taxes.

And yes, I AM in favor of welfare reform. Before you skewer me with the old "you support
citizens on welfare," you need to know that I do support a certain amount of welfare, but I don't support anyone who refuses legitimate work in favor of collecting a dole. If a person is elderly or disabled, or if a person loses employment and falls down on their luck that's one thing. People like that deserve our assistance. But people shouldn't get welfare just because they have kids. My own mother was left a widow with six children and she refused welfare in favor of work, so I know it can be done. I worked for the Commonwealth of PA for over twenty years and was disgusted with the fact that the welfare system failed to help people be self-sufficient. Best thing that could ever have happened was when the five year welfare limits were enacted. I am very proud of Clinton for doing that.

If we are requiring US Citizens to work and pay taxes in order to qualify to get services
(which the new Temporary Aid to Needy Families Laws do), then shouldn't illegals be required to get legal and pay taxes in order to receive services?

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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Welcome to DU.
Why don't you start a thread on some of these issues? The OP in this discussion focuses more on why this law is unnecessary, and actually won't stop the influx of "illegals" you seem so concerned about. You should go share your perspectives with the rest of the site.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:17 PM
Original message
you may be flamed...
but if you are, be at peace with the knowledge that it is the bigots among us that are doing the flaming.

myself, i'm on your side.
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
52. Not necessarily bigots. . .
I'm not flaming, but I am the still, small voice of the taxpayers here, a taxpayer
who is very quickly reaching the end of her rope.

Doesn't any one care about that?

Yes, save money by ending the war. But don't make me pay for people who are here
illegally and who pay nothing. Don't make me pay for people who refuse to get themselves
legal, when my family actually took the time and money to get my husband legal. That is
simply not fair.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why flame you
it is a crazy law.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Let just say that when you put the words "illegal" and "alien" together...
...even here at DU, that there are those here that are a tad bit "knee-jerk" on the subject. The last time I started a thread on illegal immigration, I was cleaning out my inbox for a week afterwards.

But a lot of people don't know about this law...
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. hmmm... let's delete this "back up copy" the board made...
Edited on Fri Mar-03-06 03:18 PM by villager
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. It only passed the House...
...not the Senate. Not law yet.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. No Flames here... As with every law these * cabal traitors write...
there is no thought to what could happen once these laws are implemented.....


Once the dems get back into power....I wonder how long will it take to reverse, dismantle or remove these poorly written laws?
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
48. If we refuse to consider the taxpayer's burden in all of this
We'll be tossed right back out of office as soon as we get in.

If the dems want to stay in power (and I sure as hell want them to!)
We need to show some sympathy for the taxpayers. We never want to give
the impression that we want working people to pay and support people who
contribute nothing in taxes to their own support.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Did you see this thread?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x563659

Now THIS is the Catholic Church I used to know and love

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/03/opinion/03fri1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"It has been a long time since this country heard a call to organized lawbreaking on this big a scale. Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles, the nation's largest, urged parishioners on Ash Wednesday to devote the 40 days of Lent to fasting, prayer and reflection on the need for humane reform of immigration laws. If current efforts in Congress make it a felony to shield or offer support to illegal immigrants, Cardinal Mahony said, he will instruct his priests — and faithful lay Catholics — to defy the law."

<more>
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Who would flame you for this?
Bring 'em on! I'm in fightin' mood. DUers who agree with this law, please step forward for a round of fisticuffs!

I'm really sick of xenophobia disguised as "strengthening our borders."
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. This law is absolutely insane.
Just another example of GOP Christian love. :eyes:
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Who shows ID when they go into a women's shelter?
Fill out paperwork, sure, but produce an id? I don't recall that being required.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's part of the problem, that my wifes org is going through.
Now they are going to be required to verify citizenships when someone comes in for assistance :shrug:

And if your N.P. get money from HUD or other government orgs, your funding can be cut off and your doors locked if you don't comply.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. That's a HORRID law! Good grief!
You won't get any flames from me. If they want to do something about illegal immigration...START WITH THE RICH PEOPLE WHO HIRE THEM. Go to the businesses that give them jobs and pay them slave wages. Send THEM to prison. They're going after churches and non-profits??? That has got to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Doesn't it figure that SENSENBRENNER is the sponsor?:grr: He's going after people who have HEARTS, People who CARE, people who actually have compassion and empathy for others. How hateful.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. And the law says NOTHING about the ones who exploit...
...illegal labor like farms for instance.

92 fucking percent of the pugs voted for this. I wonder how many of them got kicked a nice fat check from these placeS
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:54 PM
Original message
It doesn't surprise me ONE BIT that 92% of the repukes voted for this
piece of shit legislation. That's THEM! They are bigots. They hate anyone who isn't blond haired, blue eyed and WHITE. Honest to g-d. That legislation is SO repuke.... Go after the little guys and let the big boy with the big bucks continue doing their illegal bullshit. This is sick.

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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
62. Sensenbrenner is an evil, evil man
I sorely hope he loses the next election...the Dem challenger to his seat is supposedly a strong runner.

So Sensenbrenner and the Rethugs feel fine with the prospect of siezing the property of churches engaging in purely humanitarian activities, not asking where the people they help are from (since it is against the teachings of Christ to make that a concern)? Lovely...a "Christian" nation making it illegal to actually follow Christ. That needs to be brought out.

Todd in Beerbratistan
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. Can't torch ya for that!
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. "property seizure"
...there you go! a cash cow if there ever was one. :(
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
19. Oh, I get it...
Basically look the other way when illegal immigrants are exploited by corporate America, but go after charities and other folks who try to actually help them.

Okay. Typical backwards-ass crap.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Once again, BushCo is trying to force others to carry their burden
And they are doing it with threats, as usual.

If they were serious about limiting border access, they'd do something about it before the person turns up looking for social services on this end of it.

They basically want to turn everyone in community support and service into suspicious, Soviet-style block captains, who rat out their neighbors. Way to foster a "patriotic" attitude!
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't carry proof of citizenship...don't yet have a passport.
Of course, my extreme whiteness means I wouldn't fit a "profile." Unlike quite a few people whose ancestors had crossed That River before mine crossed the Atlantic.

New levels of cruelty & stupidity.

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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Is he INSANE? Oh, wait, it's Senselessbrenner
And he IS insane. Still, this is so far beyond the pale. Hey, if you do the Christian thing in this so-called Christian country, we'll lock your Jesus-loving ass up with a lot of hardened criminals. So think twice before you give that woman some baby food for her kid.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Wanted to throw this in...
First, I don't blame the illegals for wanting to come into this country and trying to make a better life for themselves. Perfectly reasonable. I don't even blame them for doing it illegally, per se. My primary concern is that corporations use this influx of cheap labor against American workers, and to keep wages low across the board.

It's not the immigrants' fault, it's the fault of our leaders for not taking a stand against this sort of behavior on the part of our corporations.

That said, I don't believe what the agencies this law targets are doing is encouragement. It's simply good social policy. Decent human behavior. These people are here, they need help, and they should get it.

You want to target those who encourage them to sneak across our borders to find work, do what Thom Hartmann suggests and make the CEOs and other officers of the corporations that hire them suffer legal consequences such as jail time. If they risked six months to a year in jail for allowing the hiring of undocumented workers, as Thom says, we'd see people lining up on THIS side of the border trying to go home.

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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. Many progressive economic authorities
decry illegal immigration because it is hurrying "a race to the bottom" in terms
of living standards in this country. An "hourglass" society is now mentioned, with
the rich at the top, the poor and illegals at the bottom and little or no one in the
middle. If corporations and the wealthy want to use illegals rather than pay citizens a
living wage, we should do everything possible to discourage that.

We must further discourage the use of taxpayer dollars to subsidize anyone who contributes
nothing to the system and who is paid sub rosa. That includes illegals and people in the under
ground economy.


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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. ***The money trail***
Thanks to govtrack.us

Employees of these organizations made campaign contributions to legislators who sponsored or cosponsored this bill. The top organizations are listed below. This information is from the Center for Responsive Politics. Note that the companies themselves did not make the contribution.

National Assn of Realtors: $177,000
________________________________________
$10,000 to Rep. Michael McCaul
$10,000 to Rep. Rodney Alexander
$6,000 to Rep. Jim Ryun
$10,000 to Rep. Michael Burgess
$15,000 to Rep. Virginia Foxx
$7,000 to Rep. Dan Burton
$9,000 to Rep. Clifford Stearns
$10,000 to Rep. Jerry Lewis
$10,000 to Rep. Addison Wilson
$6,000 to Rep. Tom Feeney
$4,000 to Rep. Peter King
$10,000 to Rep. John McHugh
$10,000 to Rep. Ernest Istook
$10,000 to Rep. Mary Bono
$10,000 to Rep. Spencer Bachus
$6,000 to Rep. Collin Peterson
$10,000 to Rep. John Culberson
$4,000 to Rep. William Thornberry
$10,000 to Rep. Robert Goodlatte
$10,000 to Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner


National Auto Dealers Assn: $171,500:
________________________________________
$10,000 to Rep. Michael McCaul
$10,000 to Rep. William Thornberry
$10,000 to Rep. Jim Ryun
$10,000 to Rep. Michael Burgess
$6,000 to Rep. Virginia Foxx
$10,000 to Rep. Dan Burton
$8,000 to Rep. Edward Royce
$10,000 to Rep. Darrell Issa
$10,000 to Rep. Lamar Smith
$10,000 to Rep. James Forbes
$10,000 to Rep. John Kline
$10,000 to Rep. Mary Bono
$10,000 to Rep. Tim Murphy
$10,000 to Rep. Spencer Bachus
$10,000 to Rep. John Culberson
$10,000 to Rep. Addison Wilson
$7,500 to Rep. Gary Miller
$10,000 to Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner


National Beer Wholesalers Assn: $154,000
_____________________________________________________
$10,000 to Rep. Michael McCaul
$15,000 to Rep. Rodney Alexander
$17,500 to Rep. Michael Burgess
$15,000 to Rep. Virginia Foxx
$5,000 to Rep. Dan Burton
$3,000 to Rep. William Thornberry
$10,000 to Rep. Tom Feeney
$6,000 to Rep. Darrell Issa
$5,000 to Rep. James Forbes
$10,000 to Rep. Ernest Istook
$10,000 to Rep. John Kline
$10,000 to Rep. Mary Bono
$8,000 to Rep. Tim Murphy
$6,000 to Rep. David Dreier
$7,500 to Rep. Gary Miller
$10,000 to Rep. Tom Cole
$6,000 to Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner


National Assn of Home Builders: $99,500
________________________________________
$7,500 to Rep. Rodney Alexander
$10,000 to Rep. Jim Ryun
$7,500 to Rep. Michael Burgess
$7,500 to Rep. Virginia Foxx
$2,500 to Rep. William Thornberry
$7,000 to Rep. Edward Royce
$5,000 to Rep. James Forbes
$10,000 to Rep. John Kline
$7,500 to Rep. Mary Bono
$5,000 to Rep. Collin Peterson
$7,500 to Rep. David Dreier
$10,000 to Rep. Addison Wilson
$7,500 to Rep. Gary Miller
$5,000 to Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner


American Medical Assn: $107,500
_________________________________________
$2,500 to Rep. William Thornberry
$10,000 to Rep. Michael Burgess
$5,000 to Rep. Clifford Stearns
$8,000 to Rep. James Ramstad
$5,000 to Rep. James Forbes
$10,000 to Rep. John Kline
$5,000 to Rep. Mary Bono
$10,000 to Rep. Tim Murphy
$10,000 to Rep. Spencer Bachus
$8,000 to Rep. Collin Peterson
$8,000 to Rep. John Culberson
$6,000 to Rep. Charles Pickering
$10,000 to Rep. Tom Cole
$10,000 to Rep. John McHugh






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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. If churches feed them, they won't work that third minimum wage job
and that's the whole point, isn't it? These are SLAVE LABOR people we're dealing with, who don't give a SHIT about anything but making massive profit from human misery.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yep, and there is nothing in it about the farms restaurants and...
...hotel chains that exploit illegal labor. Just the NFP's.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. I hate unenforcable laws...
Edited on Fri Mar-03-06 04:00 PM by sendero
.. and laws that cover ground already covered by the law but is never enforced. I live in Dallas. I could find you hundreds of illegal workers in a matter of hours. It's not like nobody knows they are here, or where they are. It could not BE more obvious.

Laws like this one are just there so that there is another law on the books that can be arbitararily enforced if someone has an agenda.

The law sucks, and everyone who voted for it sucks as well.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. The problem is that is enforcable...
...in the fact that ones getting punished, are those that get their funding from the government to begin with. If a large part of your budget is from HUD, then that can be taken away. No money, and you have to close your doors.

I'm sure that this gives the freepers a hard on, but I think it sucks.

I was talking about that last night with the wife, and she said that you can't just turn someone away that needs help. All that is going to do is force them to get fake ID's, or break the law in some other way :shrug:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I agree..
.... my point was simple, but I didn't state it well. Nobody REALLY wants to do anything about illegal immigration, these folks are a key part of the economy of the border states, and many others.

But they are happy to pass bullshit laws that they can trumpet as being meaningful, and they are happy to have yet another law to use to selectively punish anyone they don't like.
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Kare Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. No one would flame that
whether we agree that illegal immigrants are a bad thing for
the country is irrelevant to this law.
Its just basic human decency to help people whoever they are

It is scarey that they could start asking those of us
boen here to show papers that we are a citizen
I have no passport, I couldn't prove it
maybe I should carry my birth certificate everywhere I go
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It's this freakin' gestapo "your papers please"
Edited on Fri Mar-03-06 05:26 PM by tjwash
It just makes me go :scared:

And of course it is all done in the name of "homeland security"
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
30. I thought they liked churches...
I guess they only like the 'good' churches. ;)
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. They don't like the churches that actually...
...act and treat people like Jesus Christ would have acted and treated people.

The repugs only like the churches that hate gay people and are anti-choice.

Of course this is pretty new to the point that we have not seen any ramifications yet, but there are a lot of powerful churches, and religious orgs here in San Diego that are going to oppose this one, and probably break the law in doing so.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
31. **Dems that voted yea**
(GA)Rep. Barrow, John
(IL)Rep. Bean, Melissa
(AZ)Rep. Berry, Robert
(OK)Rep. Boren, Dan
(IA)Rep. Boswell, Leonard
(VA)Rep. Boucher, Frederick
(HI)Rep. Case, Ed
(KY)Rep. Chandler, Ben
(IL)Rep. Costello, Jerry
(AL)Rep. Cramer, Robert
(TN)Rep. Davis, Lincoln
(OR)Rep. DeFazio, Peter
(TX)Rep. Edwards, Thomas
(TN)Rep. Ford, Harold
(TN)Rep. Gordon, Barton
(SD)Rep. Herseth, Stephanie
(NY)Rep. Higgins, Brian
(PA)Rep. Holden, Tim
(PA)Rep. Kanjorski, Paul
(WA)Rep. Larsen, Rick
(IL)Rep. Lipinski, Daniel
(GA)Rep. Marshall, James
(UT)Rep. Matheson, Jim
(NC)Rep. McIntyre, Mike
(LA)Rep. Melancon, Charles
(KS)Rep. Moore, Dennis
(MN)Rep. Peterson, Collin
(ND)Rep. Pomeroy, Earl
(CO)Rep. Salazar, John
(MO)Rep. Skelton, Ike
(OH)Rep. Strickland, Ted
(MS)Rep. Taylor, Gene
(CO)Rep. Udall, Mark
(IN)Rep. Visclosky, Peter















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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. I noticed that my Rep,
Tim Holden is on the list. Good for him!

He knows how much money Pennsylvania taxpayers have spent supporting illegal
residents. We are hemorraging financially here. State taxes have gone up
and property taxes are getting higher. We cannot affort illegal people who pay
no taxes. We simply cannot carry them any longer, and he knows that.

We dems need to face the facts. Not everyone likes higher taxes. In fact, if
my local taxes get any higher, I will not be able to afford my home. We need to
show some sympathy for taxpayers.

And before you go there, I am NOT in favor of the war. I am against that waste of
money and I despise the millions being poured into Halliburton.

The fact is that a smaller and smaller number of taxpayers are being asked to support
larger and larger numbers of people who don't pay. Fact is that we are subsidizing
the governments of the nations where the illegal residents come from. If we pay, why
should they even try to provide opportunities for their own citizens?
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Wow. You have no freakin' clue what this law is even about do you?
...It's not even about illegal residents. Did you happen to actually read any of this, or are you just reacting to the word "illegal" and "alien" put together in the same post?

Now I am sure that you would very much enjoy, seeing all aforementioned social programs scrapped, and replaced with BRING OUT YOUR DEAD wagons, and we can just scoop the dead bodies off of your off your precious streets that "your" tax dollars are paying for, as they die of disease and malnutrition. Yeah I know, So what huh? Fuck 'em, they are just a bunch of filthy wetbacks, and shouldn't be here anyway right? They are just costing you your precious hard earned tax-dollars. :eyes:

Well guess what. Those "illegal residents" are here, and they are in Canada, and they are in Malaysia, and Japan, and China, and every other country in the world that happens to be a step up the ladder from other places in the world. I suggest you accept that little fact and pull your head out of your ass. They are not going to go away, because they take money away from social workers, or punish churches and people that care only about easing human suffering.

You attempt to use the term "we Dem's", yet sound exactly like every Libertarian jerk I have ever run across. I am pretty convinced as I read more and more crap like this from conservative and Libertarian bastards, this is pretty much the type of world they are all really after.

Have a nice life.

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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. I don't and cannot afford
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:45 AM by brensgrrl
any more of MY DOLLARS going to support people who pay nothing in taxes for their
own upkeep.

Get real. It's not like these are people who have paid taxes and now need help.
These are people who PAY NOTHING AT ALL into the system but take plenty out. Sorry,
but thats what parasites are.

I said (LISTEN UP!!) that these agencies can spend all of their PRIVATE DONATIONS
on services to illegals that they want. These are CHARITIES after all. Let them
collect donations from people who want to support the presence of illegal residents.
But it is not fair to ask that stressed taxpayers be forced to involuntarily donate to
people who are breaking the law here.

Social Service agencies would be better off to help these people GET LEGAL so that they
can legally work here and pay taxes. I favor LEGAL immigration and welcome all who choose that
route. THESE PEOPLE CAN GET THEMSELVES LEGAL BUT THEY
REFUSE. WHY IS THAT!?? My husband was an immigrant and he got legal. Why can't they?

From the way you talk it is clear that you don't pay property taxes or any other such thing
or else you love to finance illegal activity. Our taxes have reached the breaking point from
supporting illegal residents. Things are critical in PA. For years I worked with state budgets,
watching larger and larger proportions of state and federal dollars go to social and community
agencies that support and encourage illegals. Personally, I wrote checks for thousands
to the IRS. My husband and I just wrote a check for over $2600 in property taxes, some of which
supports the children of illegal residents in the public schools. In the meantime, our daughter
needs tutoring and we cannot afford it because of the large tax burden. What have you paid out of
pocket as a lump sum lately? What do you want from me? If this goes on, I will be homeless,
along with my family. But perhaps that will make you happy. My child will go without services,
so the child of someone who has paid nothing can get them.

But apparently, the hundreds of thousands of dollars I and my family have paid as law abiding
citizens, and the trouble I and my family went through to get my husband into the country
legally count for nothing. We law abiding people are the suckers; the illegals are the smart
ones. People should not be made to do the right thing. People should be allowed to continue
to break the law and should NEVER be discouaged to GET LEGAL.


Let's do that then: let's discourage legal immigration. Let's tell the world that we
provide cradle to grave free support for anyone who enters the country without documentation. We're
suckers with bottomless pocketbooks here. In fact, let's finance all sorts of lawbreaking.
Lawbreaking should have no consequences to the lawbreaker. Let's give money to drug dealers,
crime syndicate bosses and the like. Fuck the copyright laws; let people pirate everything!
Creators and developers have no rights that anyone should respect.
Scrap all of the license laws; people should be able to drive without a license, practice medicine
without a license, and so forth. Let's congratulate the ENRONS and the HALLIBURTONs of
the world and happily finance their greed. And let's continue to allow corporate and wealthy
people to have illegal workers, pay them sum-minimum wages under the table, oppress them and abuse them and take jobs away
from taxpaying citizens, while hastening the demise of the living standard in this country. Hell,
throw open the borders completely. Give the illegal residents free social security payments, free
education, free healthcare, free everything. MAKE the taxpayers pay to support them. Let the
taxpayers go bankrupt. TO HELL WITH ALL TAXPAYERS! That's what really shows compassion.

Why should taxpayers count for anything at all. Why should they have retirement nest-eggs?
Why should they even have homes? What entitles some stupid taxpayer to reasonably priced
healthcare? Why should elderly citizens have real prescription drug coverage and why should veterans be taken care of. Healthcare costs should go through the roof as public financing goes to support
undocumented people who stay here year after year without even trying to get legal. Taxpayers
don't need to care about the financial stress in their communities--why should they care about
schools and Medicaid systems and service systems stressed to the breaking point? Taxpayers don't need to live!

They need to support people who are here illegally. Why should they have
money to support their own children? They don't need that. They need to support the children
of people who are undocumented and send their money out of the country.

Let's make the legal
citizens pay their children's inheritance to fianance those who are in the country illegally.

What a great idea!

Let's throw the laws in the trash and support everyone who comes in and gives nothing back

Will that satisfy you?
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alstephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
35. HUMANITARIAN AID IS NEVER A CRIME!
Did you know....

Shanti and Daniel Fight Humanitarian Aid Charges

No More Deaths (NMD) volunteers, Shanti Sellz and Daniel Strauss, both 23, were arrested by the U.S. Border Patrol for medically evacuating 3 people in critical condition from the 105-degree Arizona desert in July 2005.

Shanti and Daniel were following the protocol of NMD training (acknowledged by NMD and US Border Patrol) by consulting medical professionals who advised them to evacuate the critically ill men to a medical facility, and then consulting a NMD attorney who approved the evacuation.

Their arrest and subsequent prosecution for providing humanitarian aid has shocked people of conscience around the world. These young humanitarians are facing prosecution by the US government which could result in a 15 year prison sentence. A trial date has now been set for April 25, 2006 after an exhaustive but unsuccessful campaign to have the charges dismissed.

The U.S. Attorney - District of Arizona who is prosecuting Shanti and Daniel is Paul K. Charlton. We urgently need your help and support to stop this prosecution. For more info please see the NMD website: nomoredeaths.org.

Thank you.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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alstephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here! eom
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Humanitarian Aid should be allowed in all cases. . .
Common humanity demands that anyone in extremis be assisted and treated. But if the
person is not in the country legally, they should be deported as soon as their treatment
is complete. That is, once they are medically stable/cured, they should be sent back
if they are not in the country legally.
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phusion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. no flames!! It also criminalizes border-crossers
I believe this is the main reason behind the new Halliburton contract to build new prisons for "immigration emergencies"! They are getting prepared for a major crackdown at the border I'm afraid.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. It's an absolute shame of a law and ought to be an embarrassment for
any American who believes in our basic principles of fairness and compassion.

That's a good point, that it does nothing to stem illegal entry of workers or their families, but it does, in effect, punish the youngest and frailest of them all by threatening social service and health care providers with legal sanctions for providing care....Ugh.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I swear it's like the next step is...
..."bring out your dead" carts.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. Why single out social workers? In fact, why stop at non-profits?
Shouldn't this law apply to for-profits, too? Why should merchants be allowed to be forced to take illegal immigrants' illegally earned money? Why stop at denying them care? Let's deny them EVERYTHING! Just make it so that everyone who wants to buy ANY product or service in America has to prove that they are in the country legally. If not getting social services in Amercia is supposed to deter illegal immigration, not being able to get ANYTHING in Amercia--not just a job, but a car, clothes, food--should work just was well as putting up a wall!

:crazy:
rocknation
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
42. From here, it looks like you really need to do a Mahatma
Ghandi before this cruelty spreads.
Remember: Step 1: Tell everyone you intend to break the law cos' it's antithetic to the reason for laws
Step 2: Do so nonviolently. Publicly if possible*

But I'm saying this from a long way off so I couldn't blame u if u don't.

And no flames from me.

* I mean publicly declaring that you have people you have not been positevly id'ed, not filming those who you help, of course.

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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
43. Just making our society even more "criminalized"...
As if we weren't already too far in that direction. Just another way more innocent people, in this case, well-meaning people--are exposed to excessive control and potential criminal punishment (which leaves a record, especially federal laws...).

Land of the free?
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. . .
And before you start with me--my husband is from another country. However, he
entered this one legally and jumped through all of the legal and regulatory hoops
needed to get to naturalization.

If he (and we) could do it, I fully expect EVERYONE else to do it. NO EXCUSES!

It MUST be remembered that a lot of social service agencies, community health centers
et al, receive taxpayer dollars in the form of grants and loans that enable the provision of services. We aren't talking small money either. These agencies received over a billion dollars in federal
funds last year--and those monies were MATCHED by state dollars. Most
illegals are paid "under the table," and hence they are not taxpayers. They contribute no money
to Medicare, Social Security or Medicaid. They can't.
They have no social security numbers or other papers that allow their wages to be
captured for tax purposes. Call me an idiot, but it does not seem fair to me that
taxpayers should subsidize them. For example, in our area, a certain school district is
losing millions of dollars a year providing educational services to children of illegal residents. Sure, the kids have Social Numbers, but they aren't taxpayers. And their parents aren't paying
school taxes of any kind. The system is stretched to the breaking point as those who DO pay are
being asked to cover those who contribute nothing. No one can convince me that this is fair.
If social service agencies want to provide services to people who are not in this country legally, then they should do it out of private monies only. These agencies should not expect tax paying citizens to subsidize lawbreaking.

And--as for the domestic violence and sickness example--the people should be stablized, given
instructions how to apply for legal entry and transported back to their own country at the earliest opportunity. Immigration -- YES!
Illegal immigration -- NO!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
45. These people don't care who they hurt
:mad: As long as they have that tough macho tough on security nonsense.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. Thas'Rytt, if you're driving a HUMAN to the ER, you're transporting
ILLEGALS-------------Yaaaaahhhhhhh!
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
55. I will not obey this so called law.
See you in the camps.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Oops! I already broke this stinkin law-to-be.
I bought a hungry man a burrito. He was not white. Oh, oh. About the taxes, undocumented immigrants pay social security that they will NEVER collect. They probably pay more taxes than you!
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. How do they do that
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:53 AM by brensgrrl
when they are paid under the table in cash and they have NO SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS?

Shows exactly how little you know.

My husband is an immigrant. You must have a "green card" (yes, I know that the actual
card is not green) to even get a social security number and have an account with
social security. No "green card"--no social security payments.

And my husband and I see hundreds lined up at the local grocery store every week sending
money OUT OF THE COUNTRY by Western Union each week. That money is strictly in the
underground economy.

If we want to take this country back it is absolutely essential that we stop viewing
taxpayers as deep pockets and enemies. Give taxpayers a break, especially you people
in social service agencies. WE DO PAY YOUR SALARIES, and we have a right to say where
the money should go.

Help people to get stablized by all means; but direct them to do the right thing. People
should be disouraged from being leeches on their fellow man.
When will someone, anyone see the reason in directing people to do what is correct?

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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Where I live in Calif.
many use bad ss numbers and the money is taken out.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
57. Can't imagine being flamed for this.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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sproutster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
60. Totally agreed - hidious
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
63. Thank you for this thread
and please ignore the Buchananites, they are so filled with hate that it is futile to argue with them
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