How is the Plan B pill, "abortion?"

[Clark2008]

I'm watching a piece on regular news - don't know why because I never watch network news, but I guess my honey left the TV on - about Plan B and Wal-Mart. I already knew about Wal-Mart's decision to sell it from DU.

However, if the drug PREVENTS fertilization, then HOW do anti-choicers believe it's abortion? Abortion is to rid the body of fetal tissue. If the egg is never fertilized, then it's just an egg and shedding it is the same as a monthly menstrual cycle.

Does anyone here know where the anti-choices are getting the argument that it's an abortion? How do they justify that?

Or is it just another step to rid women of the right to control their reproductive rights by CLAIMING without PROOF that it's the same thing as an abortion?

:shrug:

[ContraBass Black]

1. They say it and hope nobody knows the difference.

Works all the time.

[MountainLaurel]

6. Thanks to the pitiful state of science and biomedical. education

In the U.S., particularly where women's reproduction is concerned, no one would know the difference.

[Peregrine]

2. Plan B does not prevent fertilization

It prevents a fertilized egg from implanting on the uterus wall.

[Clark2008]

3. Ahhh... then the news was wrong, again, because that's

what they said. They said it prevents fertilization.

I admit, I haven't paid that much attention to this drug because I probably will never need it. In fact, to maintain a pregnancy, I have to take progesterone so that the fertilized egg implants in my uterine wall; in other words, I naturally do what the Plan B pill does.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. According to a website I checked, it works in the following way:

Plan B® works like a regular birth control pill. It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg). Plan B® may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus (womb). It is important to know that Plan B® will not affect a fertilized egg already attached to the uterus; it will not affect an existing pregnancy.

http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/AboutPlanB/HowItWorks.aspx

Very important to note that Plan B does not work like RU-486. It will not cause and abortion.

[Skinner]

7. That's half right.

Read the excerpt below. Primarily it works by blocking ovulation. If fertilization has occurred, then it will prevent implantation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. I think this is about as good a compromise as we're going to get

[Warpy]

4. It prevents implantation, not fertilization

No implantation, no pregnancy. No pregnancy, no abortion.

I wish these witless saps would stop lying.

[KittyWampus]

49. Except DU'ers below go on to mention "spontaneous ABORTIONS"

which occur often... a fertilized egg doesn't implant itself.

Please read what some DU;ers are posting and calling the expulsion of a fertlized egg. They are calling it an Abortion.

This indicates that medical terminology (if spontaneous abortion is actually a medical term) is perhaps not accurate.

Like "Brain Dead". Terri Schiavo was not medically brain dead... even though her brain was turned to liquid and no longer capable of supporting her Conscious awareness.

[CornField]

56. In 1999, I had a "missed abortion"

Not to confuse you further, but 'missed abortion' is also a medical term. In this case, the pregnancy stops developing, but the body does not expel it naturally. (There is no 'spontaneous abortion' or miscarriage.) Those who have a 'missed abortion' have a risk for infection and have a D&C.

[Skinner]

5. I think this is the reason

Note that this info is from the FDA website, so it is subject to Bush administration meddling...

3. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization). If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation). If a fertilized egg is implanted prior to taking Plan B, Plan B will not work.

(Emphasis is mine)

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/planB/planBQandA.htm

[ContraBass Black]

9. And then, it comes down to the exact definition of pregnancy.

As I recall, a woman is not pregnant in the medical sense until implantation. So in that way, Plan B does not terminate a pregnancy, it prevents it.

However, if fetal life begins at conception, then when the zygote fails to implant and is passed, it's an abortion.

[TahitiNut]

12. Such a failure of implantation occurs naturally quite often, afaik.

:shrug:

[Clark2008]

14. Oh, yes. I wouldn't have my son if I had not been

being treated for another feminine issue and required progesterone. I ended up having to be on the hormone for the first three months of my pregnancy to maintain implantation.

[Arkansas Granny]

26. Doing a little research on this shows that more pregnancies

end in spontaneous abortion (a natural loss of the fetus before 20 weeks gestation) than are carried to term. Many of these are from the fertilized egg being shed before implantation, but it's hard to know with any certitude what the implantation rate is because many women don't realize that they are pregnant when this happens, so it is never reported.

http://www.5mcc.com/Assets/SUMMARY/TP0001.html

[Mr_Spock]

45. Yep, millions of abortions occur naturally every year...

In fact I used this argument during a family discussion where they were trying to split hairs as to whether this pill was bad (my dimwit sister-in-law seemed to think it was destroying life). When I loudly pronounced that thousands of fertilized eggs naturally do not implant every single day, the argument came to an abrupt halt. I was pleased with myself for being quick on my feet and stating this so emphatically. Amazing how many people have a brain but refuse to use it's reasoned logic capabilities.

[KittyWampus]

50. Yes, but look at the term you just used "ABORTION". Either change the

term to "Spontaneous Expulsion" or don't get upset at the more simple-minded and easily lead Fundies for reacting blindly to the word "Abortion".

[Mr_Spock]

51. Hahaha! I love the waste of time on semantics! It was in CONTEXT

and made sense to use that word in this discussion here on DU. In fact, I may or may not have used that word depending on the shock factor that I was trying to convey. I am not a dimwit and realize when to use a word for SHOCK VALUE and when to refrain from using a charged word to win an argument. Perhaps you should have chosen someone else to make your point about being PC when speaking. There is nothing in the world that pisses me off more than someone worrying about what word I chose to use during a family argument and which one I chose to use when I publish the account here. They are relatively liberal Jews BTW, so the fundie issue was not in play here anyway. But I could give a flying fuck what simple enslaved minded fundies think anyway. They choose to live in hell-on-earth, so let them suffer the blind reaction expected from that of a moron.

[KittyWampus]

53. Waste of time? A discussion that directly impacts my capacity to obtain

emergency contraception is not a waste of time.

And using the word "abortion" to describe the spontaneous expulsion of a fertilized egg is misleading and gives fodder to those who would deny me my basic rights.

Oh, and this is a public discussion forum and not your family table. And a thread on DU has some similiarities to a 'family discussion' but those simliarities are limited.

My comments were directed at the word choice of "Abortion" which several DU'ers have used in this thread... not a YOU DIRECTLY. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Mr_Spock]

55. Their God aborts attached eggs every day too - does that make him evil?

Of course not, this is all within the womb and is NOBODY's business anyway except that of the woman. I'm sick of stupid semantical arguements - keep those evil perverted fundies away from the wombs of strangers and the world will be a better place.

[Mr_Spock]

52. Also, how many do implant versus not? WHO GIVES A FUCK!!

The point is that their arguments are stupid since we are talking about a friggin' fertilized egg that has to survive in the most hostile of environments. Many are never able to implant, many implant and are self-aborted. I use the word abortion show how idiotic it is to assume that their God doesn't also participate in the practice of terminating pregnancies for no particular reason at all. Does that make their God evil?? See my point?

[Arkansas Granny]

62. The medical term for a miscarriage is spontaneous abortion.

I do agree with you, though, that the term spontaneous expulsion may not carry quite the same negative connotation.

[ContraBass Black]

63. Ah, but then, even the people who understand the topic

Have to be alerted to the new term.

[HockeyMom]

13. 40% to 60% of fertilized eggs fail to implant NATURALLY

Ask any woman you know if she has ever had a period that was a few DAYS late Odds are, she probably had a fertilized egg that failed to implant. That is why science defines pregnancy from implantation not fertilization because the odds are against a fertilized egg implanting.

Besides which, there is NO MEDICAL test to determine that fertilization has just occurred. Impossible to know.

[sandnsea]

22. It's that high??

I use that argument all the time to explain that there's no biological reason to worship the blastocyst, but I had no idea so many fertilized eggs didn't implant. I guess all women are just natural born baby killers. :sarcasm:

[TahitiNut]

24. Yep. That's what I thought - it's normal.

:thumbsup:

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Yes, for some, it's No Sperm Left Behind

But I read an interesting op-ed article a while back -- the gist of it being that even determing the exact moment of fertilization is a pretty iffy thing. When sperm meets egg? Penetrates egg? When changes start ocurring?

Implantation makes better sense, to me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. I have always believed life begins at conception

and have been pretty adamant about that. However, I could compromise and extend my views to implantation. Kind of like grabbing for the ring on a merry-go-round. You miss, it you get off and have to pay to ride again.

Okay, kind of odd analogy. Sorry.

[Lars39]

38. Medically, conception includes implantation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

43. Then to me, this medication that prevents it

is the holy grail of birth control. It represents the compromise we need to be willing to make.

[sandnsea]

19. So it does either

Prevent ovulation, or prevent fertilization.

Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

8. The fundies have ALWAYS been against contraception.

They just think that abortion makes it easier to vilify women than taking a pill does.

Their fight to take away our reproductive rights is about control, not babies.

We need to keep reminding people about their disgusting history of targeting women who want nothing more than equality.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. I have read this statement on here a few times today

that fundamentalists are against birth control. That is not my sense of it. Roman Catholics, yes. And fundies aren't for birth control for unmarried people, because in their eyes they should not need it. But I don't think anything is coming down from the fundamentalist pulpit saying no birth control.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Remember their reaction to the pill?

When it was first marketed?

Birth control allows women to become harlots without the "punishment" of becoming pregnant.

How many times have you heard them claim that women shouldn't be allowed to get abortions because they "deserve" what they get for being promiscuous?

I hear it every week. (not in those words, their English is much more crude and graphic)



These same hypocrites whine constantly about mothers on welfare and then a few minutes later scream about abortion and when you call them on it, they go right back to the bible for justification of their misogyny.


The faith-based birth control of abstinence-only programs is proof of their puritanical ideology.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

42. Well, actually,

I don't remember the existence of the Religious Right when the pill came out. I was about 10, and it was around 1960, I think. I know there were "holy rollers" as we called them, but they didn't have any political power.

I do agree that there is a lot of mysogny among that group today and a real desire for punishment for "immorality" as they surely believe pre-marital sex is.

But my impression (and I haven't studied this issue, which actually is pretty interesting) is that Roman Catholics officially are not supposed to use BD (Papal orders) and most, of course, do. But that the protestant sects don't go there. And all the ones I know only have one or two kids. Now, the Mormons are a whole other story!

[Mr_Spock]

47. Fundies just plain hate women.

Why women go along with these bigoted misogynistic ass holes is an interesting study in human behavior. Makes me sick thinking how many people sacrifice their free exercise of human thought just to be "part of the pack". Oh, well - they may just be a addictive type of personality that couldn't handle free thought anyway. :shrug: It's difficult to stop people from hating themselves if they want to...

[BlueIris]

10. Who cares as long as the anti-choice can keep their high moral ground?

They have no shame. They just want to cling desperately to rationalizations for their misogyny. They think only in abstractions. They don't care who their oppressive initiatives multilate, whose health they destroy. Sad, sorry little pieces of shit. I would pity them, but--I actually just hope they die painfully and burn in the hell they're so desperate to threaten others with.

[DeaconNoGood]

15. Wow............

you've got a temper don't you.

.....die painfully and burn in hell......that some strong stuff for a discussion regarding contraceptive methods.

[Clark2008]

18. I think Blue Iris - and many woman - are to the breaking

point when it comes to these fundies fooling around with OUR bodies.

I didn't even notice her wrath because I share it. I'm lucky enough to be in a committed and faithful marriage and I was raised Catholic, so I know the rhythm method down pat (of course I use other methods during ovulation); however, if I get pregnant, I have the support and care of my husband to bear the child (my choice). And, upon my turning 40 in four years, he plans to have a vasectomy because I absolutely don't want children past that age and it's easier for him to have that surgery than for me.

That said, I don't want other young women who aren't in as wonderful a situation I'm in to have to suffer unwanted pregnancies when they share their bodies with a lover because some fundie asshole says they can't have access.

[Katherine Brengle]

25. Hell yeah we're to the breaking point--

especially because we know that this is not just about us as individuals, but about all women and how society views us and treats us.

While I am also lucky to be in a good marriage and not overly fearful of pregnancy, I refuse to let others suffer.

[MissB]

28. Welcome to DU!

Enjoy your stay.

Lots of us have tempers. Deal.

[DeaconNoGood]

29. Thank you

I appreciate your welcome.

[beam me up scottie]

41. You think so?

What gave it away?

Try posting some anti-choice rhetoric on this website and see what happens.

You have no idea what angry is...

[Mr_Spock]

48. The fundies are evil "be part of the pack or burn in hell" people...

...sometimes people just want to say "no, how about you realize that you are LIVING IN HELL ON EARTH based on your awful treatment and social and mental manipulation of free-thinking human beings. I have zero sympathy for the psychopathy of fundamentalist Ameritaliban in this country. I don't personally hope they burn in hell because they are living in the hell they have created on earth and that is punishment enough IMHO.

[KainNero]

27. They need their moral high ground. They got nothing else

I was talking to someone on messenger about the South Dakota law and he said that even if a person was raped they should keep the baby.

Joy, so you get raped and then another 9 months of trauma being reminded of the rape and having the kid. He didnt care about choice to not have the baby. If a woman wants to keep the possible child fine, if not then fine. Abortion is not murder if done early since it's just a clump of cells with no human parts.

You know what he said to me? "F*CK SCIENCE" He Didn't give a crap about choice. Sometimes I think someone he knows would end up with this dilemma and then maybe he would not be so stupidly closed minded.

[benburch]

11. Their intention is to strike down access to birth control.

That is their agenda. It has been all along.

[Clark2008]

16. Do you think this will happen?

The Today Sponge is back on the market - because it sells. So do profilactics and all forms of the Pill.

Do you think corporations will give up these cash cows because fundies want to control my body?

Just want to hear opinions on the issue of fundie Republicans vs. corporate Republicans as it relates to birth control.

[Warpy]

32. You bet they will

They love nothing more than keeping half the human race in slavery. They'll give up everything to accomplish that.

[NashVegas]

46. It's Time to Stop Pussyfooting and Bring on the Economic Argument

The indelicate argument. With the Patriot Act, how far do you think "privacy" is going to take us in this day and age.

There is no denying the correlation between womens' reproductive control and increased economic and political equality gains in the last 50 years.

If whomever's job it is to argue Roe v Wade revisited, or what have you, puts that one on the table, they'll be putting SCOTUS and everyone else in the country in the position of having to deny women's constitutional rights said equality.

Oh wait. I forgot. ERA failed.

[benburch]

39. The question we need to answer...

The GOP is a Detente between corporate interests and extreme right-wing anti-reproductive choice interests. Neither one believes it can get its way without the other, so there has to be some give and take. In this case, corporations are easily bought off by unrestrained looting in other fields of endeavor, but they are ALSO keenly aware of how unpopular a decision this would be. The question is which side do we think will prevail?

[OnionPatch]

60. I'll guess: the side with the money bags

nt

[HockeyMom]

17. Troll the Freepers

Yes, ALL methods of BC, except "natural family planning" to space children, not to PREVENT them though. It is all RELIGION to them. The majority of these people are also staunch Catholics. As some others have posted on Freeper threads, they want a CATHOLIC THEOCRACY. All forms of BC, including barrier methods, sterilization, even NFP if meant to prevent births, are EVIL and an affront to God's will. The purpose of sex for procreation - period. We may as well be animals with no minds as far as they are concerned.

Plus, now they are overjoyed that they have a CATHOLIC majority, not just Christian, on the bench. Bush with his Abstinence Only Until Marriage and FAithfulness In Marriage supports this. Where is there mention of BC even in marriage? Think about it. His two choice for SCOTUS were Catholics. Coincidence?

I suggest you search contraceptives on their site and see what we face. You cannot fight them if you do not know what they are advocating.

[Clark2008]

20. I'm Catholic, but also the daughter of a nurse and the

granddaugher of a nurse. Both my mother and grandmother are Catholic, but the realism they experienced as nurses caused them to fight for abortion rights (they knew wealthy women could always have them).

Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, of course, but I rather suspect there are quite a few Catholics who use birth control and have had abortions.

I just wish those assholes on the bench were of this kind of Catholic ilk. *sigh*

[foreverdem]

31. I'm Catholic

As is my mother and when she was alive, my grandmother. My mom, who is 77 years old, is strictly pro choice and was shocked to hear that abortion rights were again being threatened. And my grandmother was pro choice as well. Both used birth control. In fact, my grandmother got into it with a priest once over her use of birth control (the priest got nosy and asked her why she didn't have any more children).
The majority of Catholics are pro choice. It's the ones who aren't that make so much noise, they make you think they represent the majority of us.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. I hope they find some land and start their

Catholic Theocracy. Should be very interesting. Then they can stop worrying about the rest of us.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. They don't have a chance

not in a profit-driven economy like ours. Birth control brings in big bucks. Besides, a lot of husband and lovers are going to be getting very much at all unless there is available birth control. That will change a lot of minds real quick.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. My question, ben

is do they want to strike down access to birth control for married couples, or just in the high schools?

This is really new information to me. Can you point me in any direction for links? Is there some sort of White Paper or manifesto out there?

[CornField]

57. There was a research paper, done by a pastor, which outlined

why birth control pills were similar to and should be treated as abortions. (I no longer have the link, but I'll look for it for you.)

The pill works in two ways -- to prevent an egg from being released (no fertilization) and to prevent the uterine wall from being hospitable to a fertilized egg (thinning of the uterine lining). It is impossible for anyone to know when or how often the first line of defense fails and when the second works.

Many religious types feel that the moment the egg is fertilized, there is a new life and anything done to prevent the continuance of that life is an abortion. This is why there is objections to the pill.

The kicker? I know of very few religious higher-ups who do not understand this. They do not rail against it openly because they know it will drive the general populace away from their overall position on abortion.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

59. I appreciate it and if you find the link let me know

this whole spectrum is very interesting to me, because I see them (RW) as "johnny-come-latelies" to the whole birth control argument.

tg

[pookieblue]

61. Yep

I've gotten into disagreements (to put it mildey) with some of them.

I've read many an article bout Pharmacists who refuse to fill a Rx for the BC Pill.

What some of these people don't understand... OR don't care... is that some women take the Pill for other reasons besides "Birth Control".

Some women are prescribed the pill to regulate their cycles. Some are prescribed the pill to regulate a condition knowns as endometriosis.

But yes, they (the fundies) are out to get rid of the Pill too.

[iconoclastNYC]

21. Same way Gay Marriage threatens "Traditional Marriage"

If you are brainwashed (by birth) by religion you can be manipulated in any number of ways.

[rodeodance]

54. It is so just because they make a declaritive statement that it is abortio

n. (works for the WH).


.....Does anyone here know where the anti-choices are getting the argument that it's an abortion? How do they justify that?

[CornField]

58. It works in a similar fashion to the pill -- see post #57

.