There's A Difference B/W Your Personal View Of Abortion AND Women's Rights

[omega minimo]

"Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives. "


Dear Dear DUers All,

There's a difference between your right to your opinion on abortion and a woman's right to have an abortion.

Can you see the difference between what you think, feel, believe and choose for your own family regarding reproductive rights
AND respecting other's rights to reproductive health and privacy?

Can you see the similarity between joining discussions arguing what is moral or right or wrong for others based on what you think YOU would do
AND those religious or political busybodies who argue what is moral or right or wrong for others based on what they think EVERYONE must do?

Can you imagine that if women's rights to reproductive health and privacy are eroded (and women are returned to second class citizen status) that there may be more moral bigots coming after you in the future: in YOUR private life, in YOUR doctor's office, in YOUR family, in YOUR bedroom, in YOUR body?

As a wise poster stated on another thread:

“The abortion debate is about who controls a woman's body: the woman or the state. Anything else is meaningless handwaving.”

An excellent discussion on Meet The Press states how people of conscience can have their own attitudes about the abortion issue AND know the difference between their opinions and the rights of women.

"What is at issue is the individual right to privacy and dignity for American women and the issue of who’s going to get to decide the most intimate aspects of our lives."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10721401/page/3 /

RE: RESPECTING CHOICE WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE

MR. RUSSERT: Can you be a pro-life, pro-anti-abortion rights feminist?

MS. MICHELMAN: You can be a feminist and oppose the act of abortion on moral and ethical, religious, on personal grounds; absolutely can be.
And, in fact, many people who are pro-choice in terms of their beliefs that the policies of this nation should respect the diversity of views on these issues related to pregnancy and childbearing, abortion, and reproductive matters, that there is a diversity of views and they are informed by one’s values, as they are mine.
My personal values informed my decision about abortion.
But you can be absolutely anti-abortion, if you will, and pro-choice; believing that women ultimately, not the government, not Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay and Bill Frist, but women themselves must determine the course of their lives, and central to that determining the course of their lives is determining when and under what circumstances they will become mothers.
Because the thing that most women want is to be successful at mothering.
And the first ingredient is being able to determine when that time is right and not being forced by the government and by politicians or by judges to bear a child under circumstances of one—not of one’s choosing.

RE: LANGUAGE MATTERS

MS. MICHELMAN: Could I speak to this “abortion on demand”? 
I have to comment about this because I hear it over and over and over again.
First of all, I ran a Planned Parenthood affiliate for years.
I have been with women who have faced the decision about whether or not to have an abortion.
I have never heard a woman demand to have an abortion.
I think that that language reveals the lack of respect that those who oppose abortion have for women who face crises.
We’ve got to get rid of that language.
And Roe does not guarantee women a right to abortion without restrictions.
It balanced rights of women to have an abortion in the earlier stages of pregnancy, and allows the states to restrict in the post-viability, roughly last trimester.

RE: PRINCIPLES OF DIGNITY AND PRIVACY FOR WOMEN

MR. RUSSERT: Are the Democrats changing their vocabulary on abortion, because to Kate’s point, the political—the politics are changing?

MS. MICHELMAN: You know, I think those public comments and that public angsting after the 2004 presidential election was unfortunate because the principle that underlies a pro-choice position are the principles of dignity and privacy for women.
Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives.
And the right to choose is an ex—the right to choose, the right of the individual woman to be guaranteed, to be free from the government and political interference in making this decision is a right that is embraced by the majority of Americans.
There may be different views on the individual act of abortion, but in terms of who should make the decision, whether it’s government and politicians or women, there is universal acceptance that women must make that decision.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Excellent post. Ms. Michelman has made a very thoughtful and

persuasive argument.

[omega minimo]

15. The video's even better. Haven't seen anyone state it so clearly

:thumbsup:


edit: especially as the other MTP guest was KATE O'BIERNE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Re:puke:

[CTyankee]

2. As a former employee of Planned Parenthood

I have said this again and again.

If you are prochoice you can certainly decide that you do not wish to have an abortion yourself. The whole rationale of prochoice is, of course, "choice." I have had coworkers there who have had abortions and those who have had children. Eveyone got along just fine.

Finally, it is nobody's business what a person's childbearing decisions are but that person. Period.

[omega minimo]

16. And we're back to Square 1 with lots of folks who lost or never learned

that concept.

:hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. I have a certain sympathy for some anti-choice

people because if they believe it is murder, they are really more or less stuck. Many liken it to the Holocaust and feel they must act.

Now, some are only against it because of vague (or maybe not so vague) sense of the inferiority and original sinfulness of women. Those folks I have no sympathy for.

As I explained in the other thread you refer to, I personally see it as murder but I am not burdened with the need to protect the unborn. Maybe someday I will have to answer for that; I don't know.

I believe this is an issue that will never be resolved. Perhaps one day if a woman can deal with it privately and chemically, it might. But the invasive procedure is always going to be seen as brutal murder to some, and they will act upon their beliefs.

[omega minimo]

18. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to sense that difference

the OP brought up.

If someone has those views, they may "liken it to the Holocaust" but not "act." Those who "acted" in past decades threw bombs at clinics and shot doctors in their homes. Women and doctors and now students at high schools are still subjected to harrassment and intimidation, complete with disgusting and phony props. These people don't seem to act in good faith at all. They don't seem to care about people AFTER they're born.

[Katherine Brengle]

4. This post absolutely nailed it!

It isn't about wanting people to have abortions--it's about freedom and privacy and how much we value our female citizens.

[omega minimo]

20. Much obliged, KB

:grouphug:

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Freedom and privacy.

Yep.

Would that we lived in a world where people could understand the distinction between the morality they choose for themselves and the morality they want to foist upon everyone else, and deal with the fact that sometimes consenting adults are going to do things with their OWN bodies that other people may not particularly like.

[meti57b]

5. Isn't there something about freedom from involuntary servitude .....

in the Constitution? If you don't want to give birth, you shouldn't be required to.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. My Opinion Is That Abortion For Sake Of Convenience Is Unethical and Wrong

But you won't find me saying anywhere that the state should force you to abide by that opinion.

I believe abortion for convenience is wrong on many levels. But you can choose to do it anyway and I would never argue that you don't have that right, or fight to have that right taken away.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

14. Sorry, but convenience is rescheduling a hair appointment

so that it doesn't conflict with meeting the girls for lunch.

Abortion is self defense of the most intimate kind, defense against a serious threat to health, finances, social support system, and LIFE.

Only a man would call that "convenience."

[omega minimo]

19. Don't hear them criticizing the post-90's trend of

birth-by-convenience. The women now that schedule C-sections based on their busy calendars.

[RazzleDazzle]

23. What's unethical and wrong

is deciding (judging!) for someone else what has been decided and done is a matter of "convenience" and is worthy of condemnation by her superiors (as in, YOU).

How dare you? How fucking dare you even imagine for one second that you have any right whatsoever to weigh in on some woman's choice on the matter, along with her life circumstances, her reproductive parts and processes and how they work or don't and what she does or has done with them and what she should do with them?

How fucking dare you.

When YOU are personally and individually ready to raise the child(ren) of anyone you'd condemn to parenthood against their will, then and only then MIGHT you have a say in the situation -- but frankly not even then since pregnancy and childbirth take a tremendous physical toll on the female body, and sometimes still in this day and age results in death.

[omega minimo]

24. "Hmmmm. Isn't that conVENient?"

More outrageous than your righteous outrage :grouphug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. LMFAO!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wow! That was fun to read! LOL

Of all the extremist posts headed my way today on this topic that one takes the cake!

I actually didn't even take offense to the rambling. It was just too silly to take seriously.

By the way, I'm pro choice bub LOL

[beam me up scottie]

31. Pro-choice people don't use terms like "abortion for convenience"

Or abortion on demand.

Try again.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mandyky]

7. Planned Parenthood always gets a bad rap too

I went to PP for years for pap smears and birth control. I found out I was PG for 2 of my 5 children there. They DO NOT pressure women to get abortions. I am not even sure our PP did them onsite.

Ms Michelman is great, she really knows how to frame things. She handles the RWers very well whenever she is on CSpan's Washinton Journal.

[foreverdem]

12. I agree

PP was a godsend to me when I did not have health insurance and needed paps and birth control. I knew plenty of women and teenagers who went there for the same reason. PP seems to be misunderstood by many as exclusively an abortion provider. They need to educate themselves.

[mandyky]

17. I took my daughters down for the educational talk they give

about birth control.

I figure girls need to know when they get their period. I do not believe abstinence works, like Al Franken says "abstinence only works until it doesn't". I wanted my daughters getting info from doctors and nurses, not the girls at school.

[Peanutcat]

8. I have never understood

The reason behind forcing a woman who doesn't want a child to bear that child.

[radio4progressives]

9. Are there DU members who are anti-Choice?

:shrug: if so, i'm in the wrong forum and the wrong party.

[Crowdance]

21. Sadly, there are anti-choice posters here.

IMHO, this position should be reviled as thoroughly as racism. But it's not. I believe the anti-choicers reflect a genuine tiny minority of the party. They do, however, reflect the more accepted idea that women's rights are a negotiable item. You are not in the wrong party. But, it may be that the party is in a compromised position in many spots, such as Pennsylvania, and in many senses, as in the failure to stop the Alito appointment.

[Yupster]

29. There are quite a few anti-choice

Democratic office-holders.

[TomClash]

11. I am a man

and I think Clinton was right: abortion should be safe, legal and rare. By what right, by what standard, can any man deny any woman such a fundamental right? If that's not sexist I don't know what is.

[kestrel91316]

13. As a veteran clinic defender from the 1980s, this is old hat to me.......

OF COURSE it's all about who controls my body. It's about who OWNS ME.

And guess what? I DO.

Your rights end where my body begins. And I get the luxury of deciding who else gets to be present inside my body, be it a man or a fetus.

[omega minimo]

22. Here's how far the woman-haters will go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=571142&mesg_id=571142

[pat_k]

26. Everybody is pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't want to put frig

The short version:

Everybody is pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.

Long version:

We are all pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't think that frightened women and their doctors should be thrown in jail. Democrats believe women should never have to face such desperate circumstances -- no health care, poverty wages – that the only option they see is ending a pregnancy.

Democrats are fighting to guarantee access to health care for every single American. Democrats are fighting to guarantee a living wage for every American worker. Democrats are fighting to make it possible for families to have confidence they will be able to give their children, and their children’s children, the life they deserve. Democrats are fighting to give women more options, so they can be assured that when they bare a child, that child will be loved, protected, and provided for, even if they are unable to do so themselves.

Democrats are committed to true individual freedom, which cannot exist without freedom from fear of economic hardship. Democrats know that a vigorous private sector cannot exist if work is not valued. Democrats know that economic security requires access to quality education and medical care. Democrats know how critical those first months are in the life of a child; they know paid family leave benefits all of us. Democrats know that private industry can only flourish and create prosperity for all when the power of the people to protect their interests is embodied in strong public institutions.

We are all pro-life. The difference is that some of those who call themselves pro-life think throwing frightened women in jail is the solution. The threat of jail did not work before 1967. Democrats know we can do better than that.

Key Points
Never use the word abortion. It is too loaded. Figure out, and practice using, alternate words and phrases.

Never concede that the Democratic position is NOT pro-life. Assert the fact that the position is pro-life – and assert it with confidence. Point out the difference and use simple words. Instead of saying something like “Democrats don’t want to criminalize abortion”, say “Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.” Examine your assertions. Are there “dry” statements that can be modified to create an image or evoke an emotional context?

Results -- Doorknocking Experiences

When I was doorknocking for Kerry, I don't know if I changed any votes, but I definitely got some thoughtful looks when I made these points to the people that identified themselves as pro-life.

My standard response to people who said they were voting for Bush because they were pro-life, was "So am I. Probably the only difference is that I don't think frightened women and their doctors should be thrown in jail. John Kerry believes women should never have to face such desperate circumstances -- no health care, poverty wages – that the only option they see is ending a pregnancy."

Sometimes this led to a brief discussion -- sometimes with very encouraging results. But, as I said, even people who cut off the exchange often looked thoughtful. There were a few that looked very taken aback, or sort of blanked, like a circuit shorted out.

I think this "frame" prompts these folks to stop and think. It seems that many have never really thought through what they are fighting for. All they know is that they don't want women to end unplanned pregnancies. They believe it shouldn't happen -- ever. They want it to stop. Period.

Of course, making it illegal doesn't actually accomplish their goal. The notion that they are fighting to put people in jail is a notion they don't seem to have internalized.

Words are important. Simply putting the emphasis on the word "never" seems to make the points more effective (perhaps "never" connects with the attractive simplicity of all or nothing thinking).

[omega minimo]

47. I disagree with adopting their bumpersticker propaganda slogans

Maybe it's a holdover from the violence, murder, firebombings, harrassment, etc., etc., etc. committed in the name of "Pro-Life" against women and families for the past couple decades..................................

Now is the time to come out strong for women's rights and quit being apologists trying to sidestep women's rights.

"Key Points Never use the word abortion. It is too loaded. Figure out, and practice using, alternate words and phrases.
Never concede that the Democratic position is NOT pro-life. Assert the fact that the position is pro-life – and assert it with confidence. Point out the difference and use simple words."

Abortion is too loaded? Well, who loaded it? Feminism is "too loaded," Liberal is "too loaded"-- and why?! Thanks to the Hate Wing and the Hate Wing radio/TV blowhards that have indoctrinated the public with THEIR "framing."

Folks are hungry for truth and plain speaking. The apologist, manipulative, convoluted and condescending (IMHO) tricks of "framing" will ultimately backfire and lead to more Democratic failure.

If for no other reason than YOU CAN'T OUT-BULLSHIT THE BULLSHIT ARTISTS. Never ever never EVER ever. Don't even try.

"Instead of saying something like “Democrats don’t want to criminalize abortion”, say “Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.” Examine your assertions. Are there “dry” statements that can be modified to create an image or evoke an emotional context?"

How bout saying something like women have the right to reproductive health and privacy and control over their own bodies? Too "loaded"?

:hi:

or mebbe:

"Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives. "

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Yup. It's not about whether or not YOU "like" abortion.

It's about whether or not it's your choice to make when it's not your body.

[marcapolo]

30. a view from the pro-life but still left side

As one of about 5 pro-life democrats, I feel compelled to (respectfully) explain my views on the subject. First, pro-choicers often use the argument "It's my body." But the thing is, every cell in your body is programmed with your unique genetic code, which is what makes you you. But then you have this thing inside you-- call it a zygote, fetus, baby, whatever-- that has a totally different, unique genetic code. If a scientist performed DNA testing on it, they wouldn't say it's you, they would say it's a different person. So while it may be in your body, it is not actually your body.
Secondly, pro-choicers say "It isn't a baby, it's a fetus, zygote, blob of cells, whatever." Again I would say that if scientists examined the "tissue," they wouldn't say it came from a monkey, or a dog, or an alien, they would say it's human DNA, cells, tissue, etc. People may counter, 'even if it's human DNA, it clearly doesn't look like a human; it looks like a blob of cells' (depending on its stage of development, of course. In mid-to-later stages, the presence of a heart, brain, and even stunted little limbs seems evidence enough that it's a person). In earlier stages, it may not look human, but are we to base life on looks? There are a lot of people with severe defects that may not look like our definition of what a person looks like and no one questions whether they are human, but they have the advantage that we can actually see them. For people who remember the Milgram experiments, the subjects were much more likely to "shock people to death" (to think they were shocking them to death, that is) if they couldn't see them. The fetus is at a disadvantage because we can't see it, so we can easily dehumanize it. I'm probably going to invite an invective with this next argument, but I'll say this: throughout history, when there is a group of people that people wanted to get rid of for whatever reason, they did 3 things-- they said that the group doesn't quite look human, they gave them a new name to dehumanize them, and then they killed them. Colonists did this with the Native Americans, pointing out their physical differences, calling them "noble savages," and then slaughtering them. Same thing happened to the Aboriginies and to a certain extent the Jews in the Holocaust. This may seem like an exaggeration, but I think it's a psychological tendency at least worth noting. I'd be happy to hear any dissenting views to my arguments. Since no one will ever discuss abortion in person, I've never heard a response to my views.

[beam me up scottie]

33. You realize you're also describing tumors, don't you?

:shrug:

[marcapolo]

40. re: the tumors

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with that one, scottie, but i at least got a laugh out of it. i've never heard the "it's not a baby, it's a tumor" argument.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. LOL

[beam me up scottie]

44. If you're not sure where I'm going,

how can you think it's funny?

Oh, I get it.

You guess my argument has something to do with what you consider to be an excuse for a woman to abort a fetus.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Kudos On The Intellectual Post And Welcome To DU!!!!!!!!!

Very good post and very well thought out. I fear for you in the replies you may get regardless of your rational position, but if you do get some animosity it'll be a good "breaking in" to DU LOL Things can get heated here sometimes but at the end of the day we are all fighting the same fight. Thanks for the thoughtful and intelligent post and I look forward to reading what you have to say on other topics as well.

And Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

36. You fear for them?

Why?

Are they anti-woman too?

I think some of us aren't fighting the same fight at all.

The vocabulary gives it away every time.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Who In The Heck Is Anti-Woman Here And What On Earth Are You Talking About

?

What are you guys like a clique or something? LOL

[beam me up scottie]

39. So now pro-choice women are a "clique" ?

It just seems like that to you.

And to all the anti-choice hypocrites.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. Yup! What A Great Job Of Deductive Reasoning Watson!

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

42. I thought you said you were "done" ?

Nice to see you're consistent.

[marcapolo]

46. thanks

Thanks for the comments, OPERATIONMINDCRIME, but don't worry, I can take the heat.

[omega minimo]

45. 4 words

Women. Are. Not. Incubators.

[beam me up scottie]

48. Using the Holocaust analogy.

It was inevitable but no less revolting.

Yeah, I don't hate women but they're like nazis...

[beam me up scottie]

35. crap...another late night

Just kidding!

Recommended!

Another hit for the Big OM.:patriot:

[Moderator]

49. Locking

This thread has become a flame-fest.