cegelis/duckworth- the big difference on the war.

[mopinko]

is that christine cegelis knew this war was wrong BEFORE it started. when too many other people were pretending to be fooled by the propaganda, christine was speaking out against it. when elected dems were hiding under their desks, and tammy duckworth was being the good soldier that she is.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Uh but her opponent was busy fighting IN IT

:eyes:

[mopinko]

2. yeah, and still isn't all that against it.

there are good and bad things in everything.

[FreedomAngel82]

3. Are you going to cite anything to back up your claims??

[mopinko]

10. yeah, i was there

were you? i heard their words out of their own mouths. compare their website, and see who puts what emphasis on what issues.

[countmyvote4real]

5. Bless Duckworth's heart. Seriously.

However, I would rather have Cegelis as my voice and representative in Congress. If we had more like her before this war, it's possible that our country would never have made this huge mistake that cost so many lives and limbs.

I live in NYC and know what it's like to have a DLC, corporate funded carpetbagger Senator that still will not admit the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. I have decided to cast my primary vote here for Jonathan Tasini.

http://www.tasinifornewyork.org/

Anyway, back to the Ill 6th... I don't live there, but last night I made my first campaign contribution ever in my life. It's not like I have funds to spare, but I sent something to Christine Cegelis via actblue.com

Maybe others can send something to Tasini's campaign. If you are a H. Clinton supporter, then you would be doing the DLC and yourself a favor by freeing up her time to run for POTUS in 2008.

[The Magistrate]

4. You Have Something Against Soldiers, Ma'am?

Maj. Duckworth did her duty as she was sworn to do.

She has stated publicly on numerous occassions she would not, if in the Congress, have voted to commit the country to war in Iraq.

[mandyky]

6. But she is not for a timetable on leaving

and doesn't want troops home as soon as Cegelis does.

And I was a soldier, so don't ask me that question! LOL
I think soldiers are great! It does NOT mean they should get an elected position JUST because they are a soldier.

[The Magistrate]

7. Both Potential Candidates, Ma'am

Seem to want the venture brought to a close as soon as is practicable. Their judgements of that span may differ somewhat, but it does not make their positions different in essence. My own view is that the thing should be ended yesterday, if not sooner, but that does not blind me to the fact that events after our departure will bear the look of disaster, and it is quite understandable to me that many persons are not particularly willing to seem the authors of that, any time soon. It seems to me that remaining is harmful to our country, and in a greater degree than any harm that could follow our departure, but the departure, too, will bring harm as well. We must face this: it is not the case that once the U.S. departs from Iraq, everything will immediately be peaches and cream and sunlight on the roses. Invading and occupying the place was a catastrophic error, that will have large and damaging consequences for a long time, whatever course is followed from this point forward.

[mopinko]

9. the question is- what priority does the candidate give to it?

ending the war is christine's first priority. tammy's first position papers were about the alternative minimum tax, and pell grants. fine issues, to be sure. but what does it say about her that that is what she chooses to run on? to me it says- i will say whatever the well to do people in the 6th district want to hear. i will promise them a kick back, and maybe they will vote for me.

[The Magistrate]

11. Well, Ma'am

One cannot win an election unless people vote for you, and telling them what they want to hear is a time-tested specific for getting them to do that. Harranguing people about something that is not their own highest priority is not nearly so good a means to achieving that end.

"I am a man of primciples, Sir, and chief among them is flexibility."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. "telling them what they want to hear" aka lying.

Politics as usual.

[The Magistrate]

14. Is There Any Other Kind Of Politics, Sir?

To complain of a politician telling people what they want to hear is to complain of a steak house serving meat on plates....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. We used to call that a cop-out, Sir.

War is inevitable. The poor will always be with us.

I see no need to accept lying politicians any more than I see a need to accept poverty or war. Perhaps, it's time we try something new. Like demanding that politicians actually respect democracy and the people enough to tell the truth.

Accepting corruption is acquiescing to it.

[The Magistrate]

16. Ah, Well, If It Is A 'Cop-Out', Sir

To recognize the real nature of an enterprise, that is just a bummer....

If you are aware of any human enterprise of large scale functioning without corruption, please be good enough to cite it, as it has certainly escaped my notice. Like carving wood, where one must make the grain of the piece your friend, the art is to make the existing and unavoidable corruptions of existance work for, rather than against, your desires. That is the basic material of political action and political success.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. So, politicians are forced to lie?

While I may agree that, in particular, American politicians have become experts at "telling the people what they want to hear", in the form of outright lies, half-lies, prevarication, and as "Big Daddy" said, MENDACITY!, and with the help of "handlers" and an ignorant electorate, have made it into a fine art, I see no reason to accept it, or the ones using it, as a necessity to "success".

The question then arises, what sort of success has been achieved? Is it a "success" to have elected the more skillful liar? Is it a "success" to have elected someone who has garnered the most "campaign" contributions, and is now beholden to "contributors"?

"That is the basic material of political action and political success."

Only, if you limit the idea of "political action" and "political success" to the smarmy world of electoral politics.
Others, throughout history, have achieved "political success" through other means. From Gandhi to Mao to Pinochet.
If democracy is to work, then I believe it is necessary that the "demos" be involved and aware beyond the manipulations of politicians.

The trouble with your metaphor about wood carving and the grain of the wood, is that it's the politicians and their masters who are doing the carving, and we are relegated to the role of the wood.

[The Magistrate]

18. Ah, Yes, Sir, The 'Smarmy World Of Electoral Politics'....

By all means, let us have blood to the ankles in the streets and field; that is infinitekly preferable to smarm....

"War is the health of the state."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. If the politicians make democracy impossible.

Then that's what we will have. I give you as examples the Duma in Russia in 1917; the National Assembly in France in 1790; The British Parliament in 1775.

Please do not miscontrue what I'm saying. I am not for revolution, at least not violent revolution, but a change in thinking about what we accept with a shrug and a wink.

In another post, that I started, I stated that we must remember that the politicians are our representatives, not our leaders, and should be elected as such. I am advocating that the electorate take responsibility or we indeed will have the "democracy we deserve" which is what we have now, to our regret. And, that is due to precisely what we are discussing. GWB and his cronies in congress told the American electorate what "they wanted to hear" rather than the truth. The examples are too numerous to bother listing and, I'm sure, you are very much aware of them.

The Democrats, instead of responding with the truth, attempted to do the same "telling them what they want to hear" with the results that we now endure.

Perhaps, it is time for some courageous politician to step outside "politics as usual" and try telling the people what they don't necessarily "want to hear" but what is blatantly obvious. i.e. "The war in Iraq isn't just a 'mistake' but a catastrophe." or, "The tax-cuts for rich are impoverishing you.", or, "Torture under any guise is simply wrong and immoral". And, many more.

Who knows? It might even work better than the nice safe platitudes that lull the voters into not even bothering to vote.

[mopinko]

8. that is just the kind of low blow that the "fighting dems"

theme was intended to foster. shame on you.
her public statements are written for her. she says what she is told to say. they won't let her appear where she might wander from the script anymore.
her actions are- she went over there, and came back and said- "there is good and bad in everything" that is tammy's stand on the war. if she had come back and said, what a horror we have inflicted on these people, we need to get out now, i would not be so opposed to her.
a purple heart is not a free pass.

[The Magistrate]

12. In Any Conflict, Ma'am

Blows are struck as opportunity offers, and part of the art is to leave no opportunities available oneself to an opponent. The line you pressed above provided the opening, and someone devoted to the other side would have struck a good deal harder than that gentle tap.

If you think that pressing a line that amounts to stating any soldier who has served in Iraq has done wrong will work to the advantage of anyone but the Republicans, you are sadly mistaken. That line will offend the great preponderance of the people, including a great many who wish the war and occupation brought to a speedy conclusion.