To all those who think nothing should be done about illegal immigration...

[FormerRepublican]

...I went outside this morning and found MS-13 had tagged the place. As you might know, MS-13 is primarily comprised of illegal aliens coming over the Mexican border. They are also the most violent gang in the country.

You think illegal immigration is A-OK and nothing should be done? Fine - I'll ship the MS-13 gang over to YOUR neighborhood! I have NO sympathy!

For those who want to discover exactly what's in my neighborhood now, check out the following link:

http://www.gangsorus.com/marasalvatrucha13.html

[wakeme2008]

1. What do you mean "tagged the place"

:shrug:

[madeline_con]

5. They spraypaint some stuff on the wall.

It supposedly marks their territory. Gangs actually get into wars over it.

[mdmc]

83. like this

[Neil Lisst]

13. think of it as marking their territory

It's a very serious matter. It means a criminal gang has decided to mark that as their territory, and there may be some other gang that also claims the location.

Any way you slice it, it's bad news for locals.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Where illegal immigration should be stopped

is at the workplace. The NY Times today said that little or nothing is done to investigate illegals at the workplace. If we could dry up the demand (via sharp fines or even jail time for employers who knowingly hire illegals), very few illegals will come north-why bother?

Do you think if this was done, it would help with the gang problem by the border?

[FormerRepublican]

8. How would that get MS-13 out of my neighborhood?

Mexico is now infested with them because they deported them back to El Salvador, they recruited more people, El Salvador has death squads after them, so they immigrate back up to the US to escape the death squads. When they run out of money, they stop in Mexico, increasing gang levels in Mexico. That's why violence is increasing in Mexico, too.

I don't think drying up the jobs would solve the gang problem. Most of the gang members are involved in illegal activity to make $$$ and don't have jobs.

[hiley]

10. You are right about the illegal immigration

and "drying up the jobs"!

MS-13 gang growing extremely dangerous, FBI says
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
Posted 1/5/2006 10:47 PM Updated 1/5/2006 11:01 PM

<clip>

In recent years, MS-13's reputation as a particularly brutal gang was cemented by a series of incidents, several of them in Northern Virginia. In one, a former MS-13 member who had become a police informant was fatally stabbed and her head almost severed. In another, MS-13 members used a machete to cut off several fingers of a rival gang member.

<clip>

The Houston shootout, however, raised questions about whether the gang — whose original members in Los Angeles included people with paramilitary training who fled the civil war in El Salvador during the 1980s — is evolving into an organization that is in their image.
The Houston incident sparked an FBI investigation that has reached into El Salvador to try to determine whether MS-13 members are receiving formal training in weapons and military tactics before they come to the USA — often as illegal immigrants.

<clip>

Clifford says "it would be dangerous to look at MS-13 as just another street gang."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm

[ptolle]

30. legacies

formal training in weapons and military tactics.
Would tend to make one wonder if this is another of the wonderful legacies of the School of the americas, St. Ronnie the forgetfuls iran-contra scam and Negroponte's death squad tactics/policies? I'm not any too confident of a solution to the "illegal" immigration problem unless the hemisphere gets together to figures out things like economic/political equity and justice. I'm pretty sure that things like CAFTA are not the answer, neither is any sort of great wall of the united states.
Given that the majority of Americans are not too good at introspection or self analysis maybe John Steinbeck called it right in Travels With Charley when he rendered the opinion that perhaps we are in danger of being overwhelmed by peoples not too proud or too lazy or too soft to bend to the earth and pick up the things we eat.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. Chickens coming home to roost

The U.S. prolonged the civil war in El Salvador by aiding the existing government, which richly deserved to be overthrown. It trained government and military officials in torture.

Our government bears a lot of responsibility for the existence of Salvadoran refugees.

[FormerRepublican]

100. Very true. Doesn't mean I want to be next on the MS-13 hit list, tho.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. So it's a police matter

Most illegal immigrants are NOT gang members.

I'm all for coming down really, really hard on companies that hire illegal immigrants, because most of them are doing so in order to avoid following the minimum wage and occupational health and safety laws.

If I were writing the laws, a business that knowingly hired illegal immigrants would be fined the equivalent of one year's income. If that forced it to shut down, too bad.

The supply side for illegal immigration is nearly infinite, and it is a problem in every developed nation, including Japan, which attracts illegal immigrants from China and the Philippines.

The demand side is controllable: come down so hard on business owners that word spreads among potential immigrants that it's not worth going because there are no jobs.

[FormerRepublican]

128. I don't see how you could do that with the level of document fraud...

...involved in many cases. I've heard some say that a SS database or some such might be used to verify employee status, but I think in that case they'd just resort to using a valid SS # from a citizen (which is already occurring).

I think the problem is in seeing this in absolutes - stopping it completely, or opening the borders completely. I think that's impractical.

What we can do is improve the raggedy operation we're running now so it works better. With the rise in gangs running the operations, I think this is becoming imperative.

[NuttyFluffers]

196. the problem is just about always about seeing in absolutes. :D

isn't it funny how absolutes almost never work? :evilgrin: that's why regulation and management methods are instituted. complete iradication or complete inaction is rarely possible or productive, but learning to craft an enviro for a functioning low level of the issue is the real goal. best of luck with your neighborhood. may want to rub some of that issue into any particular RW neighbor who has been getting on your nerves lately. :D

[Hutzpa]

179. Well they, (the Government) need to use....

some of their resources to fight these guys, most of what is being used in Iraq and Afghanistan should be utilized on these low life's, otherwise this will become a plague, or has it already become one.

[BeFree]

14. I am against illegal immigration

I think anyone who wants to, and does make it here should not called illegal.

If the focus was on violent criminals instead of criminalizing innocents, then the gangs could be dealt with. As it is, enforcment of real crimes goes lacking because of all the time and manpower spent chasing after folks who just want a job in their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.

[FormerRepublican]

17. You're underestimating the speed at which this problem is growing.

Given the fact that many of these gangs are involved in operations moving illegal aliens into the country, no matter how you approach illegal immigration, we're looking at big trouble.

What I DON'T think we should be doing is IGNORING the problem! Or trying to cover it up by saying no one crossing the border illegally is criminal.

The whole point of LEGAL immigration is screening!

[BeFree]

18. Well

I don't think they should be screened. Yeah, we should screen people on DU, but the country is supposed to be free.

If you made the borders open, then there would be no money made bringing people in, and that element of profit making crime would be eliminated.

[FormerRepublican]

21. That's crazy. So you don't care who comes in and moves next door...

...to you?

How exactly would open borders solve the gang and drug violence problem? You just want the US militarized? (Yeah, THAT would makes us free!)

[BeFree]

24. I might care...

...who moves in next to me, but justice demands that as long as they don't violate my pursuits they are free to move in.

I am not saying open borders would solve anything. What I am saying is that using resources to catch real criminals doing bad things is a better use of the resources. I do not find people wanting to move to America to be a bad thing.

[FormerRepublican]

27. So what's wrong with LEGAL immigration? What's wrong with...

...screening people before they immigrate? Don't people with driver's licenses get screened to keep reckless and drunk people from driving?

[BeFree]

31. A matter of resources

We have limited resources. Controlling the border is beyond the reach of our resources. Controlling criminal acts is damn near beyond our resources. By decriminalizing certain acts our limited resources can be dedicated to real criminal acts.

Actually, screening drivers would make sense because of the potential criminal acts that are inherent with using a two ton car as a weapon. But we don't have the resources to screen all the drivers, either. You don't need a license to drive a car, and there are many who do drive cars without licenses.

In fact, bad drivers are a much bigger concern to me than someone coming across the border on their own two feet.

[FormerRepublican]

36. Given how people feel about corporate influence in our country...

...what would it be like if the gangs had that level of influence? Given that our political system is all about $$$, and gangs have plenty of $$$, I can forsee that happening. I already think Bush is half in bed with criminal and mafia types (Abramoff comes to mind)...

I think if we fail to control the problems flowing in over the borders, the resources we'll need to take back our country will be far greater than any $$$ we might need to spend now.

If you wonder where the US is headed because of this, take a look at Mexico and the border areas. When I lived in Texas, the border towns were HUGE business and major investment $$$ were pouring in. Now they've been taken over by gangs and violence, and businesses can't even function there. Violence is growing, not decreasing, despite the fact the borders are virtually open now!

[BeFree]

42. Why do gangs have so much power?

Is it from the money they make bringing in people a source of income? yep.
Are illegal drugs also a source of income?

As you may have noticed, I believe in people being free. It is government control which enables criminal elements to gain power due to the income streams from government induced ilegalities.

The government is at the root of the problem, not some poor person in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. Give people real freedom and most of our problems would disappear.

[FormerRepublican]

48. How do you explain crime, then?

People are "free" to commit crime, which they do. Should we not have police to control this, for fear it will encroach on criminal "freedom"? It's OK for murderers to run rampant, because halting them would reduce our freedom?

How is criminal activity government induced? :crazy: Crime is just as rampant, if not more so, in areas where government is non-existant, which would not be the case if government were the cause.

Gangs have so much power because they're willing to resort to violent acts to achieve it. This intimidates others and gives gangs power over them.

[BeFree]

88. Governments, too

Governments have so much power because they are willing to resort to violent acts to achieve it.

We need, no, we require a limited government. They should protect us from violent criminals. And leave alone those who don't harm others with violence. That's a pretty good limit. Immigration is a minor matter relative to violent acts. Lets use resources on violent acts, first. Make it a priority. Solve that and the world becomes a beautiful place.

[FormerRepublican]

91. Er...given that a lot of violent acts are now occurring on the borders...

:shrug:

[BeFree]

101. Yeah,

while the border patrols resources are streched out across nowhere.

I have found that when government forces people into criminal acts, the next criminal act becomes easier too commit. If you make things illegal it makes it harder for an honest person to stay honest. But once a criminal, and labeled as such, honesty then matters little.

[FormerRepublican]

103. This statement:

"when government forces people into criminal acts"

is pretty outrageous on it's face. The government doesn't FORCE people into criminal acts. Care to back that statement up with some evidence? Links?

[Hutzpa]

181. Ooops....mind if I butt in

I have an understanding of BeFrees' statement, it is the duty of a Government to make sure that there is enough jobs for its citizens, if a government can't do that then what you have is a 'slimy disaster' like this one, when people don't have jobs how do you expect them to survive or feed their families, next thing that most people look for is the easy way out, they look for scheme that can make them quick bucks, thats where these so-called gangs come in, its all about jobs and job security. Give them jobs, give them something to do. There is no better feeling than when a man can provide for his family...(well in a legal way mind you).

[_testify_]

203. Whose goverment has that duty?

El Salvador's? or the US?

I hope you are not saying the US needs to give gang members (that are here illegally) jobs so they'll stay out of trouble.

It's El Salvador's responsibility to make sure there are jobs for its own people - just like the US is responsible for the employment of its own citizens. If the unemployed in El Salvador join a gang and come to the US illegally and act like, well, criminals - sorry if I don't have much sympathy.

edit spelling

[Hutzpa]

205. Well US always superimpose their policies

why don't they impose one on El Salvador, and get the Government to start dealing with this problem, unless the American Government does not see this as a problem, and if they don't then we have a problem, I think this needs to be address just the same way as Drug Lords in Colombia. All i'm saying is this, the American government need to provide more resources to fight this plague instead of terrorizing places like Iraq.

[_testify_]

207. So because we have lousy foreign policies now and in the past

we should continue that? Impose our will on another sovereign nation?


Wouldn't it be easier to secure our own points of entry and provide economic opportunities to our own citizens, so that when the gang recruiters from MS13 get here they won't find tons of kids with no discernible future to prey on?

[Hutzpa]

208. Well thats where Job opportunity comes in

if major conglomerates do not have selfish interest you and I will not be having this discussion, but there are no jobs to give, all the jobs are over in China, India and Malaysia. This administration have finished selling this country out and are still doing it.

You do have a point about securing our borders, but with what? I should add though that this is where the military comes in, instead of having the military get stretched into something that does not mean well for the American people, why not use them to patrol the borders, they have all the necessary equipments to control the borders, America is the only country where its military do not control its borders.

If you look around most country have military presence, because they value their people and acknowledge the importance of protecting its land.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. So let me ask you

is it being free for me when I live in a neighborhood where they bring their gang and violence? What about neighborhood children? How free are they when they can't even step outside and play with their friends in the neighborhood? "Your rights end where my nose begins."

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Do you understand how long that process takes?

These people are desperate. They aren't going to wait in line to come across the border.

Make living conditions in their home country better and make it harder for them to get jobs here and you solve the problem.

[FormerRepublican]

94. OK, and how do we MAKE conditions better in their home country?

????

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. I'm not sure it is even our responsibility

I am just saying that would decrease illegal immigration.

[FormerRepublican]

107. We can only do what we can do. And one of the things we can do...

...is border enforcement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. That won't keep them from coming

It's just like the drug war. They will always stay one step ahead of law enforcement.

[FormerRepublican]

115. Putting people in jail doesn't stop crime, either.

Doesn't mean criminals should't be prosecuted and arrested.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. We put criminals in jail to protect society

Illegal immigrants don't come here with the intention of becoming criminals. So they shouldn't be treated as criminals. And no, crossing the border illegally is not a serious crime.

If you really want to do something to stop the flow across the border, make it difficult or impossible for them to get jobs. Punish the employers. That is why the illegals risk so much to come here - for employment.

Spreading misinformation about street gangs and claiming these illegal immigrants are gangbanging taggers is not an effective argument. I could find you evidence that the original street gangs in LA, which have spawned many copycats nationwide, were made up of African American youth. So does that mean we should send them back to Africa?

Your argument lacks logic and it makes me wonder how many illegal immigrants you even know. I know hundreds and the vast majority are not gang members or taggers. They came here to work, not to tag our neighborhoods. LOL

edit: typo

[FormerRepublican]

134. Dude, I lived in California and Texas before I moved here.

I've been vastly outnumbered in most places I've lived, so I've talked to more than enough illegals to satisfy anyone's requirement.

I think the problem with illegals is changing. Yes, in the past, the vast majority of illegals were those I wouldn't mind having next door. In fact, I've HAD a lot of them next door. No biggie.

But this is changing, and the nature of the immigrants is changing. So are a lot of the attitudes.

A good example of this is found in the border cities. When I lived in Texas, Nuevo Laredo was really big business. A lot of the Texas companies I worked for had cross-border operations there. Some companies built their factories with half the building on the US side, and half on the Mexico side. Made things easier, you know?

I talked to a business person from Texas not too long ago, and they're totally scared about the idea of doing business in Mexico border towns. The big investments made not too long ago are totally bust, from what I hear.

Why did this happen? Because of the influx of gangs.

Well, how can the Mexican economy be improved to prevent illegal immigration if business is scared off from investment?

The same thing is happening with illegal immigration, IMO. It's not just for poor farm workers anymore...

I've seen a microcosm of this here in my neighborhood. To be honest, I wish I had some of those old style illegals back...

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Well this is just your opinion

I find it quite telling that you have no formal research or even a link to support your claim that illegals are gangbangers.

My experience is completely different. Like I said, the illegal immigrants I know are here for JOBS. They don't dare do anything to bring attention on them (like criminal activity) or that could result in their deportation. And they like it here - they have good jobs compared to what they did before they came here.

[FormerRepublican]

139. I'll give you the same one I dug up for someone else:

"LOS ANGELES, March 14 - Federal immigration authorities announced Monday that they had arrested more than 100 members of a violent Central American street gang in a nationwide crackdown.

The gang, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, was born in the Rampart district of Los Angeles and has since multiplied across the continent, involving itself in narcotics and gun trafficking, murder and prostitution, law enforcement officials said.

Many of the gang members are illegal immigrants, mostly from Latin American countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. Those arrested have a litany of criminal charges on their records, and some are immigration violators who were ordered deported but either returned to the United States or never left in the first place.

In total, 103 people were arrested over the past month by agents of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement."

Link

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. That's LA

The MS 13 gang here is mainly Anglos, and not illegal immigrants.

[FormerRepublican]

162. And your point is...?

You asked for an example of how MS-13 and illegal immigration are related, and I gave it to you.

[BeFree]

106. One way, they say...

...is to shock and awe them! That is the big government way, the * way, the republican, and half the democrats way.

So, I do not trust the government to solve any of this.

We lost a long time ago, when we invaded America and tortured the natives. It could have been so different, but its not. And this government won't fix things. Gore? Oh, he'd a helped, but then his presidency was stolen, now wasn't it?

[FormerRepublican]

109. This part I agree with. Our government has some really BAD immigration...

...policies that merely make the problem worse for everyone. Pfft. Usual elected losers doing their worst for America.

[BeFree]

121. You mean...

...unelected leaders. This problem has really gotten out of hand since the POTUS stole the election from Gore.

[Zookeeper]

209. This is OT, and I don't expect to get into a long exchange...

But, if everyone in the world who wanted to move to America could, what would our country look like? It would be an environmental disaster, especially given the resources that are used by the average American lifestyle. We would end up with coast-to-coast sprawl.

I think Americans have the right to make decisions about how we want our country to grow and an obligation to thoughtfully plan our land and water usage.

[Boojatta]

26. "El Salvador has death squads after them"

Why doesn't El Salvador try to put them in prison instead of trying to kill them? Why doesn't the US government have death squads after the ones who are in the US?

[demosincebirth]

190. Enforce the Law at the workplace. Oh yea, I forgot, we tried that

4 years ago and the outrage from the republicans was so loud that they don't enforce it anymore.

[-..__...]

37. Supply and demand.

While fining the workplace/employers is a good starting point, it doesn't go far enough... we also need
stronger enforcement and border interdiction to stop the flow of illegals. Only going after the employers is trying to solve the problem in a half-assed manner.

And FWIW, if we're going to go after the employers it shouldn't be confined to the larger labor pool and hiring practices of industrial and agricultural operations. Enforcement should also extend to the day labor market as well. That would include the the nail pounders, painters, landscapers, dry-wallers, etc that congregate in Home Depot parking lots. Need a new deck, basement finished or flower bed weeded? DIY or hire a licensed/certified crew to do it. Need a nanny or cleaning serice? Demand to see their paperwork before you hire them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

174. Since this is the type of work my husband does, I agree with you

100%. He'll be glad to show any employer his US passport and US birth certificate. This bull that Americans don't want to work is simply that-bull.

[porphyrian]

92. Great point. It's a shame so many contractors, agribusinesses and...

McMansion owners hate America.

[Yupster]

126. The people would still come up and try for

landscaping, mowing lawns, mom and pop restaurants and repair work. I think the draw would still be there.

[gekeeley]

3. Yiiiikesssss...

Though I agree that violent gangs are unacceptable, I think this is almost a broad generalization of a large (and as we know, I mean <b>large</b>) group of people. Most illegal immigrants enter the country to work, not terrorize. I do agree that stricter standards must be set, but the guiding reason should not be to curb gangs, it should be to curb the rampant drug running and to close up any potential gaps in our border's security.

[madeline_con]

6. "not be to curb gangs"

Yes, groups of people who fight over drug territory, killing innocent people in the process, should be not curbed, annhialated.

[FormerRepublican]

11. The whole problem with ILLEGAL immigration is that we have no...

...control over who comes in. We don't know if it's just honest workers, drug dealers, or MS-13 gang bosses out to recruit.

You're OK with gangs? No problem. I'll tell the MS-13 homies that you're fine with having the boys move next door to you. Since the place got tagged, I'm sure if I stand around outside at night I can find a few homies who are interested in expansion over to your neck of the woods...

This is a SERIOUS problem, and we need to stop brushing it under the carpet. What the heck is wrong with LEGAL immigration so that people who cross the borders are screened for criminal activity?

WRT drugs - well who the heck do you think is moving the sheet? It's the gangs!

[RagingInMiami]

76. Or maybe even Al Qaeda

As the president would say

[sam sarrha]

20. i live in a little rural town, 14 yr girl raped and murdered by illegal

from mexico, our town is about 1,200. emptied of jobs by NAFTA.. they are not sympathetic here in west TN

[OzarkDem]

44. The US is no longer strong enough

to take care of so many illegal immigrants. Our economy and infrastructure are crumbling, we can't afford to manage such large numbers of people entering the country illegally.

It has to stop before it become unmanageable.

[Hutzpa]

202. Why don't you talk to Dick Cheney

and Dubya, they are the ones selling us out to China and Asia. Thats why America can't take care of problems such as these, all the resources are being spent...oops wasted on things that do not help America.

[madeline_con]

4. Are you sure? Copycats are all over.

I know kids who tell people their Cryps. They're punks who want to feel big.

[hiley]

7. MS 13 are in at least 33 states

Extremely violent & deadly.They do not play so it is best to take them serious at FIRST glance.

The Most Dangerous Gang in America
They're a violent force in 33 states and counting. Inside the battle to police Mara Salvatrucha.
By Arian Campo-Flores
Newsweek

March 28 issue - The signs of a new threat in northern Virginia emerged ominously in blood-spattered urban streets and rural scrub. Two summers ago the body of a young woman who had informed against her former gang associates was found on the banks of the Shenandoah River, repeatedly stabbed and her head nearly severed. Last May in Alexandria, gang members armed with machetes hacked away at a member of the South Side Locos, slicing off some of his fingers and leaving others dangling by a shred of skin. Only a week later in Herndon, a member of the 18th Street gang was pumped full of .38-caliber bullets, while his female companion, who tried to flee, was shot in the back. The assailant, according to a witness, had a large tattoo emblazoned on his forehead. It read MS, for Mara Salvatrucha, the gang allegedly responsible for all these attacks.
At the nearby headquarters of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents—many of whom live in these communities—fielded the reports with mounting alarm. But Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, wasn't terrifying just northern Virginia. "They were popping up everywhere," says Chris Swecker, assistant director of the FBI's criminal investigative division. "It seemed like we were hearing more and more about MS-13." Then one day last fall, FBI Director Robert Mueller called Swecker into his office. "You have a mandate to go out and address this gang," Mueller told him. Mueller declared MS-13 the top priority of the bureau's criminal-enterprise branch—which targets organized crime—and authorized the creation of a new national task force to combat it. The task force, which includes agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), aims to take on MS-13 much as the FBI once tackled the Mafia.


Composed of mostly Salvadorans and other Central Americans—many of them undocumented—the gang has a uniquely international profile, with an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 members in 33 states in the United States (out of more than 700,000 gang members overall), and tens of thousands more in Central America. It's considered the fastest-growing, most violent and least understood of the nation's street gangs—in part
because U.S. law enforcement has not been watching as closely as it might have. As authorities have focused their attention on the war against terrorism, MS-13 has proliferated. In the FBI's D.C. field office, the number of agents dedicated to gang investigations declined by 50 percent. "There was a definite shift in resources post-9/11 toward terrorism," says Michael Mason, assistant director in charge of that office. "As a result, we had fewer resources to focus on gangs," though he adds that the bureau made up for any shortfall by leveraging resources from other agencies. In recent weeks, authorities have made strides against MS-13: a gang leader accused of orchestrating a December bus bombing in Honduras that killed 28 people was arrested in Texas in February, and a recent seven-city sweep by ICE netted more than 100 reputed MS-13 members. But Robert Clifford, head of the new national task force, says "no single law-enforcement action is really going to deal the type of blow" necessary to dismantle the gang. No one is more interested in busting up MS-13 than leaders of the Latino community, who live with the fear and fallout of the gang's savage actions.
<clip>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/

[radwriter0555]

9. The 18th Street Gang did a better job of keeping crime out of my

neighborhood than the cops did.

And the people taking care of my neighborhood weren't illegal immigrants. They were LA born and raised.

[FormerRepublican]

15. Does that mean you want MS-13 in your neighborhood?

I'm sure I can find someone willing to go on over to check the place out!

And while you may have felt safe from 18th street, many others weren't:

"The gang is involved in many forms of organized crime. It has been linked to 154 murders from 1985 to 1995 in Los Angeles alone. Eighteenth Street has had its share of casualties from retaliations by many gangs in the Los Angeles area. The main rivals of 18th Street include MS 13,Florencia 13,Clanton14 or C14st., White Fence, Echo Park, Pacoima, San Fer, Rebels13, Playboys', Rockwood, Longo13 Drifters and Mid City Stoners 14th St.. The last one has its origins in Clanton Street, as well. Additional rivals include other Hispanic and Sureño gangs in Los Angeles. Eighteenth Street is also in Honduras where an intense rivalry with MS 13 and the Honduran government is ongoing.

In San Jose, Honduras, the leading cause of teen murders is the result of having an association either the MS13 or Eighteenth Street gangs. The Honduran military has had numerous gunbattles with both gangs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

Given that these two gangs are rivals, I imagine they would be an asset to your neighborhood. :sarcasm:

[radwriter0555]

23. They're business people. They take care of their neighborhoods. It was

on the advice of an LA County Sheriff that I bought my house on that street. The Sheriff told me it was well known that the 18th takes good care of its "home turf", and I found that to be the truth. We had no graffiti, no break-ins, no car burgs, no assaults, no muggings. The homes were mostly well cared for and very tidy and clean. Some people were having a harder time financially than others, but we had no drug houses, no meth dens, none of that.

They took care of their business with each other. If they had disputes, it wasn't with those of us in the neighborhood. They had respect for those of us who wanted to make their neighborhoods nicer.

The 18th made sure that other gangs or crooks didn't come into our neighborhoods and cause trouble, and they took care of us that cared about where we lived.

I would far, far rather live on the street I did, near Crenshaw and Washington, where there was literally NO crime, than in West LA or Culver City where assaults, rapes, car thefts, break-ins, etc were daily occurances. We never had to worry about that at all.

Funny how things work out, I suppose. I was safer in my corner of the 'hood than in fancy schmancy West LA, or in Beverly Hills where I had a peeping tom and my car stolen.

[FormerRepublican]

25. Somehow I don't think MS-13 is that kind of asset to the neighborhood.

And given that I recall LA having major gang wars when I lived in Cali about 25 years ago - dead people all over the place - I'm not sure I'd feel great about it even if they made the neighborhood safer in the short term.

[radwriter0555]

95. I know what you're saying about 'gangs' and all that, but I have a way for

you to look at the whole thing that breaks it down pretty simply.

It's kinda like all the right wing gun nuts;

I say, let them kill each other. I know, I know, "innocent people get in the way..." etc., but that really rarely is the case. The people who sometimes, rarely get caught in the cross fire were kind of there for a reason.

They're doing us a favor when they clean out their gene pool. They're stupid idiots to begin with, to live a life of violence, so if they kill each other, it helps everyone.. in a bad way, but in a way that rarely involves the rest of us.

Same with the right wing gun nuts who leave their guns laying around for 4 year old bubba to shoot his sister with. It's nature's way.... in a matter of speaking.

Let the idiots kill each other.

[FormerRepublican]

98. Except these guys are into massive recruiting efforts...

...no way the idiots could all kill each other. As soon as one dies, 10 more are recruited to take his place.

[-..__...]

John Gottis Howard Beach neighbors thought he was a swell guy.

Zero to little crime, kept the "riff-raff" out, block parties, barbecues and fireworks displays.

Certain urban areas where the Hells Angels had their clubhouse(s) are also relatively crime free.

Why? Because common street crime is bad for buisness... it attracts unwanted police and media attention
that could interfere with their criminal enterprises. Taking care things of and looking out for the neighbors endears the locals to the gangs (you're sentiments and sympathies are a perfect example).
"They're really a bunch of nice boys whom are misunderstood". "Just the other day one of them carried
my groceries home for me". "I don't understand why the police are always picking on them". :eyes:

WRT to MS-13 and the 18th St thugs, a genuine, serious state and federal effort needs to step-up and take out the garbage.

(ETA: for some reason my reply is showing as responding to the OP when it's directed at radwriter0555/Post #23).

[radwriter0555]

99. Just to clarify, I'm not sympathetic at all. As a capitalist in the

neighborhood at the time, I merely appreciated that "they" helped my real estate value dramatically increase and that my street was nice and quiet and well kept. I never knew any gangsters, never spoke to any gangsters, never saw any gangsters, never wanted to! The only reason I knew 18th was there was because the LA County Sheriff's deputy told me they were.

It's a nice little area with a lot of potential. Magic Johnson has invested heavily into the area, and is putting in a starbucks a block from the house I sold.

I made more than 100% profit on that property in just over 2 years.

[KittyWampus]

122. It is same with druglords in Columbia. I spoke to a great guy from there

and asked him about that stuff. He said locals liked the big drug dealers cause they paid for neighborhood stuff while politicians were REALLY corrupt.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. I guess it depends on the gang

Some gangs are just there as a support group for each other and not violent. The MS one from Mexico from what I've heard seems really bad though. If this group you're talking about didn't do graffti and other things like that than that's cool and fine and you shouldn't be too judgmental on a group. I think the only reason why you should becareful about a gang is if you can see any evidence of misconduct.

[Hutzpa]

204. Common people ain't we getting over ourselves here

a little bit, this sounds like sympathy to me, a gang is gang, yes its all fine and dandy that they try to keep the neighborhood clean and quiet, but what happens when 18th and MS cross path, and it so happens that this lil thug live next door to you, the same neighborhood they are cleaning and keeping quiet, you get shootout, bottom line Gang is gang no ifs or but they kill people period.

[phylny]

140. My aunt used to say the same about the Mafia.

Many of them lived on her street, and she said you could walk any hour of the day or night, leave your door unlocked, and no one dared mess with you.

Not saying that the Mafia was good, just saying....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. So, how do you know they were "illegal" immigrants?

[FormerRepublican]

19. Give me a freaking break. MS-13 is ENTIRELY an imported gang...

...who then go on to recruit locals. Even the local boys have ties back home to El Salvador, because that's where they get a lot of their weapons and drugs, and in turn where they ship back stolen goods for sale in El Salvador.

And MS-13 has moved into every country along the smuggling route, which probably explains why violence is increasing in Mexico and on the US/Mexico border.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. And, I repeat, what makes you think they are "illegal" immigrants?

"Even the local boys have ties back home to El Salvador.." doesn't have anything to with "legal" or "illegal" immigrants. My mother was a "legal" immigrant from England. She had "ties back home".

So, you're extrapolating that whoever did the tagging must be an "illegal immigrant" based entirely on what? That because the tag had something that indicated that it had something to do with MS-13? Couldn't the taggers have been "legal" immigrants? Just as the Mexican Mafia is made up of primarily of American citizens, as is Aryan Nations, the Crips, and the Mafia?

Or, do you consider all brown-skinned people "illegal"?

[FormerRepublican]

38. Given that a large swathe of their business involves traffic...

...over the borders, how is illegal immigration not relevant here? And just so you know, MANY of the locals in my neighborhood are illegals. How do I know? Because I've talked to them and they told me. If they obey the law and behave themselves, I don't give a freak. But in the past two years when illegals have streamed into my neighborhood in large numbers (my apartment complex had a total shift in those two years, and I'm one of the only original residents still here), the problems have escalated.

What makes you so sure they're NOT illegals, when the gang itself is strongly tied to illegals? Have you been wandering around my neighborhood asking the locals?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. So, you've actually talked to the guys who did the tagging?

Would you be happier if the "tagging" was done by home grown white citizens?

Your statement that the gang is "strongly tied to illegals" is backed up by what?

No, I haven't wandered around your neighborhood asking your neighbors anything. But, I've had "illegals" as neighbors, I've met them in hospitals doing the (literally) shit work, and I've run across them in all kinds of encounters. For the most part, they've been far more polite and hardworking than their "legal" counterparts.

[FormerRepublican]

97. Dude, have you even read anything at all about MS-13?

Half of their function is cross-border between here and El Salvador.

WTF?

Here, maybe this will make you feel better:

"Slaughter in Honduras

The yellow transit bus rumbled between two slums on a muddy road lined by rusting warehouses and sugar cane fields in San Pedro Sula, an industrial city about 100 miles from the Honduran capital of Tegucigalpa.

It was late evening last December, and among the Christmas shoppers on board were warehouse worker Emilio Lopez and his 10-year-old son.

Half a dozen men in a van raked the bus with automatic weapons fire. As passengers screamed and ducked, a gunman climbed aboard and methodically fired away, authorities said.

When the shooting stopped, 28 people were fatally wounded. One was Lopez. He died apparently shielding his son, Emilio, who was found wounded and hiding under a seat, the boy's mother, Maria Lopez, recalled.

"These people have no souls," she said of MS-13.

Maduro, the Honduran president, has blamed the group for the slaughter, saying it was a response to his administration's "zero tolerance" campaign, which has resulted in the arrest of more than 1,800 gang members since 2002.

An accused mastermind of the bus attack is Lester Rivera-Paz, who is tied to an original MS-13 cell in Los Angeles, the Normandie Locos. He had been deported from the U.S. four times."

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/11128

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. So, Dude, did you talk to the guys who did the tagging?

So? The Italian/American mafia is just as vicious and has close ties with their counterparts all over the world, and the vast majority of them are Americans. You're claiming, with no proof whatsoever, that the taggers were "illegal" immigrants. How about showing us something to backup your claim, and your inference that "illegal" immigrants are gang members. You're also stating the "illegal immigration" is the cause of the vandalism.

So, did you talk to the guys who did the tagging to find out if they are indeed "illegal" immigrants or citizens?

And, what the hell difference does it make if they're "illegal" immigrants, "legal" immigrants, or home grown, lily-white taggers? The problem is the graffiti not the citizenship status of the assholes doing it.

[FormerRepublican]

113. So, Dude, you feel the ILLEGAL crossing of the border to engage...

...in criminal activity is totally irrelevant?

WTF does it matter if the MS-13 members in my neighborhood were legal or illegal? The gang itself is international and engages in illegal border crossings as part of their "business" operations. And no, I have no intention of approaching local MS-13 gang members to say - "hey homie, are you here illegally?" Is that something YOU would do?

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you're so compelled to defend illegal immigration that you are willing to overlook a legitimate problem associated with the issue?

WRT the Mafia - don't you think it's a good idea to block KNOWN mafiosa from entry to the country?

Perhaps you'd like to explain how that might be accomplished with KNOWN MS-13 members in the current environment?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

131. You keep stating that they're "illegal immigrants". So, prove it.

Your statement that "illegal crossing of the border to engage in criminal activity" is not only irrelvant but illogical.

You say that that the graffiti was done by MS-13 but are unable to show a connection between MS-13 and "illegal" immigration. For all you know, the criminals in MS-13 were born in, and are citizens of the USA.

Yes, indeed, criminals should be apprehended and tried where ever they may be from, El Salvador or Scotland, or Nebraska.

You have yet to make a case that your graffiti problem is linked to "illegal" immigration except to say that MS-13 are bad guys. Which is like saying that someone's Harley Davidson motorcycle doesn't run properly because Hell's Angels are bad guys.

[FormerRepublican]

136. No doubt you will say the NY Times can't be believed, but here goes:

"LOS ANGELES, March 14 - Federal immigration authorities announced Monday that they had arrested more than 100 members of a violent Central American street gang in a nationwide crackdown.

The gang, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, was born in the Rampart district of Los Angeles and has since multiplied across the continent, involving itself in narcotics and gun trafficking, murder and prostitution, law enforcement officials said.

Many of the gang members are illegal immigrants, mostly from Latin American countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. Those arrested have a litany of criminal charges on their records, and some are immigration violators who were ordered deported but either returned to the United States or never left in the first place.

In total, 103 people were arrested over the past month by agents of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement."

Link

Dude, is there ANY evidence I could provide that would actually convince you?

You think I have an ICE database here so I can check status on everyone in MS-13 and post it on DU?

:banghead:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

142. "many...are illegal immigrants".

So? Many of the people emptying bedpans and picking tomatoes are illegal immigrants. The story could just as easily said, "Many of the of the gang members are not illegal immigrants."

Again, what difference does it make if criminals are legal immigrants, "illegal" immigrants, or native born? What percentage of "illegal" immigrants engage in gang activity as compared to how many "citizens" or "legal" immigrants?

Wouldn't you be better off demanding that the local lawmen go after criminals regardless of their citizenship status rather than trying to tie your graffiti problem to "illegal" immigration?

Or, perhaps you think that erecting walls and manning the watchtowers with "minutemen" (with or without sheets) is the answer to spray paint on apartment buildings.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

143. Ignore, posted in the wrong place.

[FormerRepublican]

148. How, EXACTLY, do you control an international gang without border...

...controls?

How much of the drug trade is actually produced in the US, vs. crossing our borders illegally? How do you control this without effective border controls?

Why should we let citizens of another country cross our borders to live and work just because they want to? Mexico doesn't let me cross over to live and work just because I want to!

You seem to have quite the illegal immigrant agenda. Why is that?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

163. You seem to have an anti-immigrant agenda. Why is that?

How much of the drug-trade is spurred by demand? You want to go after the international drug trade? How about locking up, or executing, drug users?

Why should we let citizens of another country cross our borders to live and work because they want to? I refer you to Emma Lazarus.

I don't have an "illegal immigrant agenda". I have a "poor people trying to survive" agenda without regard to race or nationality.

[porphyrian]

178. You definitely have a border patrol agenda.

Border patrol hasn't stopped the Russian mafia, or the Jamaican criminal organizations, or the Chinese tongs, or even our own skinheads, from operating on US soil. What makes you think they'd suddenly be effective in eliminating gangs from our southern neighbors? International crime is best dealt with by the local, national, and international law enforcement organizations already in place, who will go much further in stopping gang activity in your neighborhood than the border patrol ever will.

[HamdenRice]

52. According to your own link, they were founded and are based in LA nt

[FormerRepublican]

56. And your point is...?

[Solon]

60. He probably means that if you try to deport the gang, so to speak...

That it wouldn't work. Think about it this way, the gang was founded by illegals in LA, now, how many of its members are now or have always beens citizens. How would you curb the growth of the gang, outside of standard procedures, with any of your suggestions.

[FormerRepublican]

69. If the gang is fueled by illegal gang business like drugs and...

...stolen goods moving illegally across the borders, than I think border controls would put a good dent in them. At least in their available $$$ used in criminal operations.

Do I think it's the only thing that needs to be done? No. Obviously, US citizens who are guilty of crime also need to be prosecuted.

But it is clear to me that haphazard border control isn't helping the problem, either.

[Solon]

78. The question is how are we to secure the border...

Its 3,326-kilometers long, and much of it through desert or rough terrain. Even if we had 100 border patrol officers per square kilometer down there, many things and people would still slip through. Building a wall or fence isn't practical either, not to mention many of the border towns, on both sides, that have residents whose families straddle the border, legally I might add. Now, there are other problems as well, for example, while it is certainly possible to sniff for drugs for many shipments into the nation, there are other means of entering the country off the roads, and, as I said, the border is long.

This isn't to say all is lost or hopeless, the problem straddles both borders, and the solutions need to as well. A couple of things that really stand out is the corruption of many law enforcement on the Mexican side of the border, especially in the border states, and also the fact that the local economies of Mexico are being destroyed, leading to desparation and the flight of people across the border.

[FormerRepublican]

105. It's also extremely hard to catch criminals inside the US who like...

...to hide and obfuscate their crimes. Doesn't mean the effort shouldn't be made.

Will some illegals get across the border no matter what we do? Yes. Does that mean an effort shouldn't be attempted? No.

I'm not willing to give up on border enforcement any more than I'm willing to give up on criminal apprehension and prosecution. Both are hard to do, but we can make an impact with legitimate effort.

[Solon]

135. I'm not saying we do nothing, just that we do it right this time...

There is a difference between throwing money at a problem and not making a difference, rather than setting up programs that would be effective at dealing with the problem. The problem is two fold, first, there are employers and others here that don't care if a person has a green card to get employment, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The second problem is an economic problem, Mexico is suffering from the same scrouge the US is, outsourcing, but unlike the US, they have almost no social services to help anyone who is out of a job there. Many times they don't even have the option of even finding a job in the area in which they live, having the local economy be almost completely destroyed by American factories moving in. We need to find a way to solve these problems, instead of wasting time pointing fingers.

[FormerRepublican]

138. My point is no matter how much the US might want to, we can't solve...

...all the problems in the world. Like it or not, a certain responsibility for Mexico does fall on Mexico. Some of their problems will need to be solved by them. Stepping in to meddle will only cause more problems for us.

We can provide aid - with oversight so we know it didn't get pocketed by corrupt officials. We can suggest programs that might help. But in the end, we are as dependent on actions by the Mexican government as the impoverished are.

In that environment, and given our own economic problems, I would say that border enforcement becomes MORE necessary, not less so.

[Solon]

146. I agree actually...

The US can't really do anything about this, and Mexico has its own problems. However, I'm just mentioning that their are SOME things we can do to alleviate the problems on our OWN side of the border. I won't mention the current treaty obligations we and Mexico have between each other currently.

[FormerRepublican]

151. Personally, I don't think NAFTA has done much for us, either.

The only thing it's done is enrich the big $$$ boys. Pfft.

I think the US is headed toward a big blowback on globalization. Perhaps it will take NAFTA and CAFTA down with it.

[Solon]

169. I hope so...

I don't lay all blame onto NAFTA for the illegal immigration problem, but you have to admit that the problem of illegal immigration has increased DRAMATICALLY since the treaty was signed. When you have poor people in any nation lose their jobs or be FORCED into employment for a foriegn firm, and then have that job lost, after their local economies are destroyed, then what else are we to expect from the desparation being created there. They are going to go where they can find jobs, really simple if you think about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Good point

I wonder if he asked these taggers for their green cards. LOL

[FormerRepublican]

116. It's she. And I'm more than willing to let YOU do a survey of MS-13...

...to find the ratio of legal to illegal members.

Shall I sign you up?

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. No need

I know where these gang members come from. Too bad you don't.

Hint: it's not Mexico.

[FormerRepublican]

141. Hint: We're not sitting on the El Salvadorian or Honduran border.

And somehow, I don't think they're coming across the Canadian border in large numbers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. So how do you think the immigrants from other Central American

countries get here?

[sam sarrha]

16. 1o% to 12% of the population of Mexico has migrated here, Mexico is

exporting their Poverty to the USA and the biggest money making industry in mexico is the migrants sending money back to mexico.

the 'Have It All's' in mexico have a standard of living second only to FRANCE..

the burden of educating and providing medical care to migrants is Biblical.. they already have taken 28 million jobs thru NAFTA.. and now we are facing another 20 million taken here..

the flood of migrants is apparently being better coordinated.. so not to be so obvious in any one place. our Walmart had a mexican food section about one shelf wide, the next week there was nearly an entire ISLE.!! i told my mother that the illegals were on the way here, Jackson TN.. within a couple weeks large groups of Mexican Peasants were all over the place in walmart.. but are keeping a low profile in the community.

we are losing a factory ever month and small business every week, we can NOT afford an influx of people who will work for sub minimum wage competing for the few jobs that are left in a area of double digit unemployment.. our small communities are empty of business, all the stores in our small town are empty, the shoe factory empty, NCR is gone.. to name a few, the Kellwoods textile factory empty..gone to Mexico, something needs to be done QUICK.. the economy is about to CRASH here.

[NNN0LHI]

49. Mexico has migrated here? Some Mexicans don't look at it that way

[ChazII]

53. Give California

Arizona and New Mexico back. The income form CA should give Mexico a boost. :sarcasm:

[Hutzpa]

206. LOL.......you have to laugh in the face of adversity........

....so the whole ideology is America belongs to Mexico and since they can't get back their country, this is one way of taking back California and Arizona. Well I'll say this, even if they do have those states back the same thing will happen, there will still be illegals immigrants coming into states like TN, AK, NY, MD etc.

It seems tome that Mexicans can't police their own, the officials in power are more corrupt than the gangs themselves.

[High Plains]

93. Hmmm...maybe you could open a Mexican restaurant

What with all those illegals flooding in and taking your jobs. They have to eat.

[Zookeeper]

210. Minnesota has had a huge and rapid influx of Hispanics...

and the new arrivals I know personally, or know of, are here illegally. In one case, from Central America via sneaking across the CANADIAN border. We also now have our own Mexican Consulate, so Mexicans don't have to travel to Chicago.

On edit: Neither Spain nor Mexico has ever had a claim on Minnesota that I know of.

[Minnesota Libra]

22. I know the "illegal immigration" issue from personal experience.......

.....but let me say from the outset that I'm torn on a few issues but not many.

I used to live in Denver, Colorado, and experienced the "illegal immigration" issue change from a "we need to do something" to "it's beyond hope" now. It started with a few illegals here and there who were expected to "fit in" to society and in most cases did so. They were nice people, very family oriented, and simply wanted a better life than they could ever hope for in Mexico.:) So far so good!!:bounce:

In just 20 years the situation went from tolerable to Denver now being at least 50% Mexican and/or Mexican/American. I haven't got a problem of any kind with the Mexican/American part but it's the Mexican part that has gotten out of hand. I could go on and on about the crimes and rise in crime rates in that 20 years just at the hands of illegal Mexicans in Denver.

Some of the suburbs fought back using an economic approach by raising apartment and house rental and buying prices. Many places now have requirements in place that not all Mexicans can meet so the suburbs are in much better shape than Denver itself.

Some people find objection in the fact that housing built by "Habitat for America", and social services, goes primarily to Mexicans whether they are citizens or not. There have been efforts to crack down on this but of course have for the most part been unsuccessful.

I firmly believe that our borders need to be MUCH LESS POROUS than they are now for our own good but having said that I'm not sure what the answer is to illegal immigration.

Wish I had the answers, I'd be an instant millionaire.:toast:

[porphyrian]

28. That was just as likely done by one of your neighbors' kids...

...as by the actual gang, not that a wannabe with something to prove is any less dangerous. The truth is that we can never stop illegal immigration, any more than we can stop drugs or guns. Harsher laws simply mean that the relatively harmless immigrants get stopped. The criminals will just take another route in.

If we're really serious about preventing illegal immigration through Mexico, we should help Mexico become a more appealing place to stay.

[FormerRepublican]

29. Given what I know about my neighborhood of late, I don't think it was...

...kids. Something is up in this place, and I'm moving ASAP.

[Boojatta]

35. Your comments suggest some questions.

The truth is that we can never stop illegal immigration, any more than we can stop drugs or guns. Harsher laws simply mean that the relatively harmless immigrants get stopped. The criminals will just take another route in.

If we're really serious about preventing illegal immigration through Mexico, we should help Mexico become a more appealing place to stay.

Why should the US government be particularly serious about preventing illegal immigration of harmless immigrants through Mexico?

If we're really serious about preventing illegal immigration of violent criminals through Mexico, then should we help make Mexico more attractive to violent criminals?

[porphyrian]

47. My Answers

"Why should the US government be particularly serious about preventing illegal immigration of harmless immigrants through Mexico?"

I don't believe the US govt. should be particularly serious about preventing harmless illegals in. The point I was trying to make is that, as with gun control laws, harsher immigration laws will do nothing to stop the immigration of the determined criminals who don't acknowledge the law in the first place. You should understand that most illegal immigrants are simply very poor and many are escaping for their lives. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong for breaking the law, but I distinguish between someone stealing a car for a joyride and someone stealing food so their family doesn't starve, and I liken most of the illegal immigration to the latter. That is not to deny the economic and cultural impact this has on our communities, nor is it to say we shouldn't work to find solutions. I simply believe it's a much more complex issue than merely preventing illegal immigration (which I hold cannot be done).

"If we're really serious about preventing illegal immigration of violent criminals through Mexico, then should we help make Mexico more attractive to violent criminals?"

The majority of illegal immigrants are not violent criminals, they simply have nothing to lose from trying to get in (and often much to lose if they stay). Helping Mexico become more appealing to their own poor would go much further towards solving both our and their problem than draconian laws we cannot enforce (or afford) in the first place.

[Boojatta]

144. You gave a very full answer to the first question, but you didn't answer

the second question with a definite "no." Would a definite "no" answer to the second question misrepresent your views?

"If we're really serious about preventing illegal immigration of violent criminals through Mexico, then should we help make Mexico more attractive to violent criminals?" <-- This was the second question.

True or false? "Criminals can usually gain more from crime in the USA than from crime in their home countries."

True or false? "Criminals from outside the USA will usually face lighter penalties in the USA than they would face if they committed the same crimes in their home countries."

[porphyrian]

170. The reason I did that was that you seemed to be missing my point...

...in asking it, so I tried to clarify. To simply answer it, I would say no, we shouldn't be making anything more attractive to violent criminals (except maybe non-violence). However, that wasn't what I was saying, and we should keep in mind that most illegal immigrants are not violent criminals. We grow more here at home.

"Criminals can usually gain more from crime in the USA than from crime in their home countries."

That statement itself needs clarification. Gain more what, profit? One can benefit from our crime without being here, so it certainly doesn't require illegal immigration, if that's what you're getting at. As such, it's impossible to give a simple true or false answer to this.


"Criminals from outside the USA will usually face lighter penalties in the USA than they would face if they committed the same crimes in their home countries."

That depends on the crime, what country they're from and their level of immunity. Again, this isn't a simple true or false as you'd like it to be. It's also a misleading statement. Just because a foreign criminal receives a light sentence in the USA for a crime doesn't mean they go home scott free. Again, depending on the crime and the country they are from, they may face the death penalty when they get home (assuming they're extradited).

My question for you is why do you feel more threatened by illegal immigrants than the violent criminals living in your immediate area?

[The Straight Story]

159. Oh I dunno, does the term 'illegal' mean anything?

Breaking the law just to get here does not seem like such a person really cares much about our laws. We have legal migration.

A lot of people don't want to pay taxes, get a license, have car insurance, etc - but there are a ton of ways they can check you for those things - hell, driving without a seat belt can get you pulled over and fined.

Instead of working on issues at home and fixing things there they just up an leave and come here where they can be more free than many of us here since they are not tracked, taxed, etc. I would not mind going to Canada myself, but I would not sneak over the border - either I go through proper channels and get in or I stay here.

I don't personally have a problem with mexicans - most the ones I have known here (both legal and not) have been good folk who are hard working and don't cause problems (and I mention Mexico because that seems to where the largest amount of illegals come from, feel the same about any country).

We have laws and rules we are all expected to abide by - even the ones we think suck. They should have the common decency to do the same - if they don't, than I don't want them here.

[porphyrian]

172. You have inadvertently brought up the best case against mandatory...

sentencing. Our laws are not created equal. Our laws acknowledge this, which is why there are various degrees of murder, for example. Do you think people who drive over the speed limit should leave America? This is why it's so important to have judges pass sentences rather than lawmakers. There is a big difference between a serial killer sneaking over the border to kill and a fourteen year old girl doing the same who is escaping a sex slavery ring that's paid off the local cops.

It's easy to judge others from our climate-controlled wireless networked fully-stocked kitchen homes. Maybe we should have the common decency of removing the plaque from the Statue of Liberty. After all, false advertising is against our laws, too.

[The Straight Story]

177. So what sentence should there be for illegal immigration?

And please note, I agree that mandatory sentencing is not the way to go. But before we can hear the case of the 14 yr old who fled we have to catch them and then evauluate it.

[porphyrian]

180. That's for the judge hearing the case to decide.

However, you're asking the wrong question.

Why are you so worried about illegal immigrants, who we know to be mostly harmless people, when we have proven criminals in our own White House running free?

[The Straight Story]

183. I can worry about both at same time

Pretty easily actually.

Perhaps we just allow all who want to come here do so freely with no questions asked?

And as far as harmless people, I am sure they are, but they are still showing wanton disregard for a basic law we have. It puts a huge strain on our social systems as well. To pretend it has no effect is to bury our head in the sands.

I am all for helping people get out of a crappy country and come to a better place, although from what I hear sometimes we are the worst place in the world so I am not sure why we have one of the largest immigration problems of any country.

Maybe we could annex mexico and make it the 51st state, then there would be no problem :)

[porphyrian]

184. Our own President shows wanton disregard for our basic laws.

I think you're being a little silly sticking to that line. Expecting outsiders to be more observant and respectful of our laws than we are is just a tad hypocritical and very ironic, don't you think? Come on.

[The Straight Story]

186. So because he does we all should? And some stats on it all

I don't have a problem with them both being held accountable.

During the 1990s, an average of more than 1.3 million immigrants — legal and illegal — settled in the United States each year. Between January 2000 and March 2002, 3.3 million additional immigrants have arrived. In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.

The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants.

Approximately 1 million people receive permanent residency annually. In addition, the Census Bureau estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually.

At the peak of the Great Wave of immigration in 1910, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. was less than half of what it is today, though the percentage of the population was slightly higher. The annual arrival of 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants, coupled with 750,000 annual births to immigrant women, is the determinate factor— or three-fourths— of all U.S. population growth

http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html

[porphyrian]

187. I didn't say that, you did.

And the stats you list only prove that America wouldn't be what it was if not for immigration, both legal and illegal. It's funny how after every major immigration wave, Americans want to close the borders. Maybe we should remove that plaque from the Statue of Liberty after all.

[Telly Savalas]

191. So you think the millions of Americans who smoke pot belong in jail?

[OzarkDem]

46. Re-think it

We can't get a handle on the problem or help Mexico until we control our own borders.

[porphyrian]

51. We can't control our own borders because they aren't real.

Why do you think we have illegal immigrants? The idea of "borders," like "security," is an illusion that's dispelled as soon as someone decides not to believe in it. I think most of the hubbub about illegal immigration is just fear, of change, of people who are different, of language they don't understand. Immigrants are being scapegoated - their impact on an economy wouldn't seem so bad if the economy wasn't already shit (this administration's fault), the rise in crime (if substantiated and not just perception-control propaganda) would be much better addressed by supporting the local law enforcement than by putting more people in a desert to watch a fence.

Most Mexicans are hard-working, good-natured people, half of whom have faced more adversity to get here than many of us have in our entire lives. Crime rates are always higher with the poor. If we're serious about stopping crime, we need to end poverty. Fearing and punishing families that still believe in the American Dream and take the chance sneaking in here to live a better life are not the problem.

[FormerRepublican]

58. You need to talk to some of the people in my neighborhood.

WRT border controls - how is tracking criminals down when they disperse across the entire US easier than enforcing the border, which is a much smaller area of land mass?

[porphyrian]

65. Your math is fuzzy.

While our country is vast, people don't live in most of it. Our border surrounds the entire mass, however. How is that a smaller area to patrol?

If there are criminals living in the unpopulated places right now, we wouldn't know it anyway. However, most crime requires a victim, so most criminals live where other people do. These populated areas already have law enforcement agencies who are familiar with the area and the people living there. They are much more likely to catch a criminal than a couple of guys in a truck who drive along a fence in the desert (especially when immigrants can spot the truck).

The people in your neighborhood sound scared to me, not rational.

[FormerRepublican]

72. So we should just open the borders completely and let anything...

...wash across? Al Qaeda can ship in nukes, cartels can ship in drugs, other countries can ship in counterfeit goods, human traffickers can ship in women for the sex trade...?

That makes no sense whatsoever. And the same point you make about where people are applies to our borders. People do tend to cross in specific areas where resources can be allocated - and far fewer resources than trying to control the problem once it gets into the US if border controls are eliminated.

[porphyrian]

77. No, but what are we doing now?

We're forcing them to find new ways in all the time. Before all the hubbub, we knew all the places they were getting over, we just found it easier to round them up at their new home or new job and bus them back. The immigration problem hasn't gotten worse because we need better border security, it's gotten worse because of NAFTA, the global economy, and the INCREASE in border security. How? Because we've forced those who are determined to get in to be more creative and resourceful than we are in doing so.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have any at all, just that you need to realize the nature of our borders and get realistic about them. Like gun laws, the only people our borders stop are law abiding citizens and lazy or stupid criminals. The border is too big to protect effectively in the manner you suggest. Our resources are better spent protecting our people and the things criminals would target. We can't wall off our country, and I wouldn't want to. For the land of the free and the home of the brave, this whole tougher-border-security thing is neither.

[FormerRepublican]

124. On that we disagree.

Yes, the economic situation down south is causing problems. H*ll, the economic situation here in the US ain't exactly rosy.

But there are other problems involved with illegal immigration that are fueling the current crisis. One of them is the fact that illegal gangs like MS-13 are running illegal aliens (human trafficking) to make big $$$. And like any company, they do what's necessary to improve profits, including violence. Then you mix in the drug trade and the violence associated with that. Yes, the situation is going to get more and more violent, because gang $$$ are involved. Does that mean nothing should be done because gangs are violent? That's their pay-off!

I see this in the same way I see any other criminal enterprise. Yes, it's difficult to do something about it. It was hard to crack the mafia and put them down. But that doesn't mean you should stand around wringing your hands, or say that nothing should be done. And I personally don't see how turning a blind eye helps things when that's how we ended up in this situation in the first place.

Given the fact that ALL of border security officers is 1/4 the number of cops in NYC, I think we could improve our enforcement without breaking the bank.

[porphyrian]

147. Yes, we do.

I am not speaking out of fear. You are. Thus, while I am acknowledging that most illegal immigrants are a humanitarian problem, you keep focusing on the violent minority and trying to justify treating them all as violent criminals. That's irrational, and certainly not the way we should make laws.

You also refuse to understand that I am not saying we should do nothing. I am saying we should focus our resources effectively, which does not include attempting to seal our country off from the world just because a few bad guys might get in (clue: we've already got bad guys in here, and an effective internal system of law enforcement to deal with them). What would make you feel better? A cop every fifty yards along the border? How about a twelve foot wall with gun towers? Or would it really take everyone different from you moving back out of your neighborhood so that you could feel comfortable again?

America is not a bunker, and I refuse to let scared, irrational people turn it into one.

[FormerRepublican]

154. What I don't understand is why the insistence that it's OK to let...

...foreign nationals stream across our borders with no controls. What's up with that?

Nationalism is not racism, and some national self interest is warranted if we want to continue as a nation.

I read posts over and over again on DU about people losing their jobs, outsourcing, globalization, etc. etc. We're shipping our jobs to India and China - oh, how terrible!

But no one will touch the problem of illegal immigration.

What's the freaking difference?

[porphyrian]

166. Foreign nationals don't stream across our border without controls.

Most come in the same way you or I would. However, I don't feel threatened by them where you do.

Nationalism isn't the same as racism, but it's just as dangerous when it's being used as an excuse for xenophobia.

The jobs aren't leaving because of illegal immigrants. The jobs are leaving because American businessmen would rather fire Americans and hire cheap foreign labor to make a bigger profit. Why is your nationalism focused on the symptom rather than the problem? I wouldn't blame you for moving somewhere, even illegally, to feed your starving family. That's the difference.

[Lefty48197]

32. What percentage of "illegal" immigrants are MS-13 members?

Maybe 1%? I think the percentage of Russian and Italian immigrants who are gang members probably hovers around 1% too, but they're all considered "legal" immigrants.

[FormerRepublican]

41. Can you back up your statement with links?

I'd like to see the numbers backing up your claims.

[Lefty48197]

I'd like to see the numbers too.

That's why I phrased my answer in the form of a question.

[FormerRepublican]

90. Here are a few numbers:

"One of the gangs being addressed by the FBI and its law enforcement partners under the National Gang Strategy is the Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13). MS-13 is a violent gang comprised primarily of Central American immigrants which originated in Los Angeles and has now spread across the country. MS-13 gang members are primarily from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, who initially established a presence in Los Angeles, California, in the 1980s. In 1993, three MS-13 gang members from Los Angeles, California, moved to the Northern Virginia and Washington, DC, metropolitan area to recruit additional MS-13 members. Current reporting now estimates there are as many as 1500 members of MS-13 in the Northern Virginia/DC area.

Based upon the National Gang Threat Assessment conducted by the National Alliance of Gang Investigators Association, MS-13 members and associates now have a presence in more than 31 states and the District of Columbia. MS-13 has a significant presence in Northern Virginia, New York, California, Texas, as well as in places as disparate and widespread as Oregon City, Oregon, and Omaha, Nebraska. Due to the lack of a national database and standard reporting criteria for the identification of gang members, the frequent use of aliases by gang members, and the transient nature of gang members, the actual number of MS-13 members in the United States is difficult to determine. However, the National Drug Intelligence Center estimates there to be between 8,000 and 10,000 hardcore members in MS-13."

Link

"In recent months, the departments of Justice and Homeland Security have started a series of initiatives to confront the threat posed by the gang, also known as MS-13, which has 30,000 to 50,000 members in half a dozen countries, including up to 10,000 members in the United States, according to federal law-enforcement statistics."

and

"Interviews with law-enforcement officials in four countries and reviews of intelligence reports, letters between MS-13 members, transcripts of phone conversations and surveillance videos show that gang members communicate and coordinate criminal activity across state and international borders."

and

"Law-enforcement crackdowns in Honduras and El Salvador are helping reverse the flow. MS-13 gang members recruited in those countries are arriving in the United States and bolstering the gang's ranks from California to Maryland.

This north-south recycling of gang members has put intense pressure on Mexico, where MS-13 is involved in robbing immigrants and human trafficking, according to officials. "It has to be treated as a regional phenomenon," said Magdalena Carral Cuevas, Mexico's top immigration official."

and

"Paz told investigators she and Flores traveled to meet MS-13 leaders in Seattle; San Diego; Tijuana, Mexico; Eagle County, Colo.; and Meridian, Idaho, often collecting and transferring money from drug dealing and auto thefts, said attorney Greg Hunter, appointed as Paz's legal guardian because she was an unsupervised minor."

Link

Another Raygun legacy. That, and bad immigration policies that escalated the problem. We let them in illegally after Raygun hatched up the El Salvadorian civil war, then we deported them (where they promptly recruited more gang members in their home countries), then we let them illegally immigrate again while spreading the gang all along the way...

[Warren Stupidity]

195. 8,000 and 10,000 out of 1.5M?

And that assumes that all MS-13 members arrived this year, so it is way off to begin with. So even using this inflated number we get 10,000/1,500,000 or 6/10 of one percent.

[UTUSN]

34. Nobody thinks nothing should be done about illegal immigration

We are Democrats. We are NOT for illegality. We ARE for national security. We are also for civil rights, humane treatment, and social justice. We haven't gotten a handle on how to counter the wingnut framing of the issues over the past three years (O'LOOFAH, MALKIN, the Minutemen, TANCREDO), and we are going to be caught flat-footed AGAIN in '06 and '08, this time over THIS. Our framing of this needs to be parallel to the CHOICE issue. We are NOT for abortions, we are for CHOICE.

We do NOT defend the MS13 any more than we defend lawbreakers of ANY OTHER minority---Hispanic, Black, Gay, Chinese, or whatever.

What you're doing by zeroing in on the dangerous, hateful MS13 here is to CONFLATE the issues of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION with the specific gang. This is the same thing the Minutemen and the rest do when they MESH the issues of illegal immigration with NATIONAL SECURITY and alleging being PRO illegality.

I'm not alleging that the o.p. has the SAME motives of the Minutemen at this point, but a vast majority of the Minutemen supporters are using ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and NATIONAL SECURITY as covers for their racism, or perhaps they ALSO care about illegal immigration and national security (besides their racism).

MS13 are the WORST of criminal THUGS and need to be dealt with mercilessly through the law. The illegality of the dude who puts in your ceramic tile floor needs to be dealt with, too, but obviously NOT the same way as MS13. And WALLING and MILITARIZING the SOUTHERN (only) border, as O'LOOFAH and the rest want to do, are not the answers either.

[FormerRepublican]

43. So how do you control MS-13 without some sort of border controls?

The whole operation of MS-13 depends on cross-border traffic. I can't see how that can be stopped (along with the associated violence) unless some sort of border controls are enforced. Far more than we have in place now, since the problem appears to be escalating with current controls, not decreasing.

[UTUSN]

50. Uh, we are POURING border patrol hirees & buildings & horses &

helicopters, and dune buggies, and boats---------into the boondoggle of "border controls". It ain't being done "smart". Just as the "war on drugs" was not done.

The true answers are EXTREMELY long term, and getting at the CORE problems, and changing OURSELVES. You dismissed one of the poster's (above) saying that we needed to dry up our DEMAND for cheap labor. Wingnuts look to the OUTSIDE and blame others; libs examine themselves and look for the root causes. It's a matter of supply and demand. Mexico has always said that, "Don't ask for the drugs and we won't send them---we'll send you cheap, colorful pottery instead, or whatever the hell ELSE you want."

Unfortunately, I don't have society-wide answers. I react individually-------like when faced by a bully or by (non-MS13) juvenile taggers in my neighborhood: I scream like a STUCK PIG! Over the past 15 years a fence 3 houses away from my house has been tagged. The MINUTE I first saw the tags I broke out my gallon of paint and painted it over, without asking the neighbor. Then I called the police graffitti contingent (who would take 2 wks or a month to come paint) and showed them where i painted and they took a police report. It has been 3 or so years since the latest incident. I realize my neighborhood taggers are not comparable to your MS13s, but neither are your MS13s comparable to MOST of the laboring illegal aliens.

Literal answers: Either raise a ruckus in the neighborhood or give it up and move out. There are like-minded people who would join you in raising the ruckus and getting THEM, the thugs, to MOVE OUT.

[porphyrian]

55. My only disagreement with you is that not all graffiti is gang-related.

Maybe the tag you saw was gang-related, but it isn't necessarily. Graffiti is legally vandalism, but most of it is simply urban and\or Hip-Hop culture, which is only "dangerous" to the status quo. Just as using a chainsaw doesn't make you a serial killer, the use of graffiti doesn't automatically make you gang-related.

That doesn't mean I think you did anything wrong other than make that implication.

[UTUSN]

66. Just as it isn't all gang-related, it ain't all "art" either

and there's a time and place for everything, including art, and the fence near my house ain't it.

[porphyrian]

75. Oh, I agree with you there. - n/t

[Solon]

79. Since we are on the subject, I LOVE city sanctioned art projects...

A few cities in my area allows people to spray graffiti that isn't obscene on certain buildings, etc. Hell, my Uncle, who's an artist, once showed me a book about graffiti, showing some examples that really blew my mind.

[porphyrian]

86. Chicago has some awesome graffiti artists. - n/t

[Solon]

102. Check these pictures out...

I took these pictures in University City Missouri, on the U City Loop about a year ago. I'm collaberating with my Grandmother in updating and rewriting her book "The Brief History of University City". BTW: This is far from complete, the building is pretty large, and these two pics only cover about half of it, I have three other pictures of it from my little excursion having fun with my digital camera. This area around St. Louis Missouri is really very liberal, its not unusual, on the Loop, to see businesses that have the yellow on blue equal sign on them. Plus the area has other huge varieties to it.

[Cleita]

112. I often thought if we were a compassionate nation that we

should offer some of these taggers art scholarships. Some of them are very good artists and instead our system lets all that talent go to waste because we don't want to invest in education for the poor youth of our nation.

[Solon]

125. I agree...

In U City, there is a community art center up the street from these photos, also, along the street are many statues and other forms of art that were made by students at the Center.

Here's an example:
This statue is across the street from the Art Center, unfortunately, after looking at my files, I can't seem to find a pic of the art center itself, oh well, another trip to the loop is warrented, I think I'll hit Fritz's Bar. :)

[UTUSN]

114. It's a good thing they're not on the fence near my house. (KIDDING!) n/t

[porphyrian]

150. Very nice. Is that a permission wall or just tolerated? - n/t

[Solon]

176. Celebrated would probably be a more accurate term...

This is probably the most colorful area in St. Louis Metro outside of the Urban renewal efforts in downtown St. Louis, now THAT is really colorful. You have to visit to understand I guess. Let me just say that the buildings in the U-City Loop are, in many cases, well over 50 years old, others, but don't look it, you can literally go to the corner candy/ice cream shop, and then cross the street to read at the public library. The local movie theater, Tivoli routinely plays foriegn, classic, and independent films, the U-City Loop is a favorite hang out for people from the ages of 1 to 100+. You can eat at the Saleem's a Lebenese restaurant for lunch, or, if you prefer, have a nice cup of Thai Tea before that.

U-City is considered one of the most progressive areas in the entire area, its highly integrated, the mayor and city council were one of the first to declare total non-cooperation with the FBI on enforcement of the Patriot Act.

[porphyrian]

201. If I'm ever in MO, I'll definitely have to swing by there. - n/t

[FormerRepublican]

67. You're assuming the solution to this problem is here, in the US.

I'm not sure that it is. Given that other countries are involved, despite our mighty fist :crazy:, our ability to influence those countries to change in a positive direction to alleviate the underlying problems are limited. Can we support the entire world's impoverished? We're already losing jobs left and right from the corporate exodus to cheap labor, indicating that our economy IS limited WRT how many it can support, so I'd say no...

Given the fact that the number of border control officers currently on our borders (ALL of them, not just southern) is less than the police force from a major city, I'd say border control has gotten the short shift...

10, 817 Border Patrol officers - http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ga09_norwood/BorderAmnesty.html (sorry about the crappy link - only one I could find that had the border patrol numbers)

NYPD Police Force (largest in US) -
"The size of the force has fluctuated, depending on crime rates, politics, and available funding. The overall trend, however, shows that the number of sworn officers is decreasing. In June 2004, there were about 40,000 sworn officers plus several thousand support staff; In June 2005, that number dropped to 35,000."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Police_Department

Given the fact that NYPD is 4 times the size of the entire border patrol force, I fail to see how border patrol is over-resourced.

[UTUSN]

68. Supply & Demand ain't assuming. The demand is HERE. n/t

[FormerRepublican]

118. The demand will ALWAYS be here - otherwise we wouldn't have jobs...

...either. There will always be employers who are willing to skate the law and hire for cheap. Just as there will always be criminals willing to engage in violent crime.

But this can be interdicted. Do I think sanctions on business needs to occur? Yes. But it's only one part of total action required to address the problem.

Somehow, I don't think a lack of jobs would keep the illegals out. They currently forge credentials to avoid deportation, so I'm not sure how they can be prevented from forging docs to get a job.

[-..__...]

39. Here's how to address the problem...

:eyes:

Anti-machete law stalled
State legislators say they must decide where bill fits into Virginia's legal code

A bill many in Northern Virginia hope would limit gang violence has stalled in Richmond, with the primary difference being what part of the legal code it should fall under.

One version of the bill addresses the "intent to intimidate," while a second calls for the "brandishing" of a machete to be a crime.

8<------- Snip

Machete Bill

- The bill targets MS-13 and South Side Locos gangs.

- Victims of gang violence in Northern Virginia have lost fingers and had hands severed in machete attacks.

- It is already illegal to carry concealed machete; the new bills call for additional penalties.

- Under the bill, the crime would be a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year behind bars. If a machete is used criminally within 1,000 feet of a school, the crime would become a felony.


http://www.dcexaminer.com/articles/2006/03/02/news/n_virginia_news/03anewsv03machete.txt





"Lt. Bobby Shirley, of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, examines graffiti near where MS-13 gang members are known to congregate. A bill aimed at limiting machete violence among gangs has stalled in the state legislature. - AP"

[OzarkDem]

40. I agree with you

I don't think illegal immigration is acceptable. Its dangerous and ruining our economy. I'd rather see the US help build Mexico's own economy and keep people employed there than bring them over here.

[dysfunctional press]

45. so what's YOUR suggestion?

i see you complaining a lot in this thread about living in a bad neighborhood that is being infiltrated by gangs/gang violence-

you keep saying that "something needs to be done"...but i don't see you making any solid suggestions-

what would YOU like to see be done...realistically?

[FormerRepublican]

54. Here's what I'd like to see done (and input in this area is welcome):

1. Some sort of legal immigration program for south of the border. If it's so important to allow illegals to continue coming into the country, then it's important enough to have a legal immigration program in place that's better than the current system. The legal version can screen for criminal and gang behavior, and match numbers for expected job demand so our economy isn't overloaded with illegal job seekers during economic downturns.

2. We need to get serious about border enforcement. This includes increasing pressure on countries south of the border to do their share. In many cases, illegal immigration is encouraged by southern countries to export problems and keep the American $$$ rolling in from immigrants who send money home. The US, while wealthy, is still only one country. Compared to the $$$ of the ENTIRE WORLD, our wealth is a drop in the bucket. No matter how much we might want to, we can't support the economies of every other country on Earth. They have to do what they can to improve their own economies, too, without expecting our immigrant exported $$$ to bolster them. To all intents and purposes, they're exporting their citizens like a manufactured product to make money, and I personally find that offensive.

3. Come up with some kind of viable economic plan. One thing we have to realize here is that the US can't do it all. The countries south of the border have to be willing to do their part, too. That means effective policies would have to be implemented at home so illegals aren't so driven by desperation. We also have to realize that illegal immigration is NOT the solution to all the problems for illegal immigrants, and the millions who remain behind who might follow into the US. If we keep thinking illegal immigration is the solution, then we never address the underlying problem that creates it. I personally am not willing to say we should have open borders merely because countries south of the border are unwilling to institute helpful policies for change at home - either because they like the $$$ flowing in from the US, or they like keeping all the $$$ with the elites at the top.

4. We need to get serious about gang interdiction. Terrorism isn't the only national security threat we face, and we should not be putting all our eggs into the terrorism basket.

[porphyrian]

61. I like your ideas for #1 and #3.

As far as border enforcement, it just can't be done adequately. I think the resources would be better spent reducing poverty and beefing up enforcement agencies in high-crime areas. Otherwise, we're just throwing money down a hole while the problem gets worse.

Cities where gangs proliferate are already serious about gangs, as is the FBI. If it doesn't seem that way to you, it's likely just because the gangland activity has finally made it to your neighborhood.

[Solon]

63. Number 3 is impossible to implement under NAFTA rules:

Just an FYI, everytime Mexico tries to pass policies to help the LOCAL economy or to institute labor, health, or enviromental laws, they get slapped with an "Investor's Rights" lawsuit under NAFTA's Chapter 11. They have already lost millions of dollars because of these lawsuits, especially when it cuts into future profits of the companies in question.

[dysfunctional press]

64. what's the incentive for countries south of the border?

you say that countries south of the border(i'm pretty sure that we only border one country to the south- mexico) need to do "their share"...

why should they?
what's in it for them to do so?

if their criminal element is leaving their country to come here, and send U.S. Dollars back home- what's the incentive to them to cooperate and do "their share"?

and just what is "their share"...? even tho' it's illegal to enter the u.s. illegally, are there any laws in those countries that prohibit people from travelling/leaving their country? other than cuba?

[FormerRepublican]

153. I guess it's OK for us to invade Iraq, then.

Since there's no real incentive for us not to.

[dysfunctional press]

194. talk about your non-sequiters...

that makes absolutely no sense as a reply.

are you sure that you're a "former"...?

honestly tho- you keep carping about, i assume- latin american countries- doing their "fair share"- what do you consider their 'fair share', and why is it their responsibility to solve our social/political problems anyway...? especially when they ultimately benefit from it...?

[Strelnikov_]

89. Deal With Illegal Immigration By Addressing Demand, Not Supply

Then the resources spent chasing people here illegally can be directed toward the criminal element in the sea of basically honest people who are trying to better their life.

It appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship. All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents and immigrants the job is a step backward.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position, a defined benefit/trust fund annuity, or college paid by the parents, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

What we need is a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration. This will address illegal immigration by dealing with demand (employers).

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&s=forum

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. I do think it's something to address and work on

Why not become a legal citizen? What are you (in the general sense) hiding from? :shrug: That way you can really work on changing your life and not worrying on being sent back anywhere.

[dysfunctional press]

70. they just want to make money to send home...

and there are limits on how many people from any one country can become u.s. citizens in any one year- LOTS of them probably would- if they could.

[porphyrian]

74. It's not a simple as that.

Legal immigration requires time, money and an extensive bureaucratic process, after which many petitioners are denied simply because of our quota system (we only accept so many people from different countries each year). Many who enter our country don't have anything to hide (and you really shouldn't use the same argument used to justify wiretapping innocent Americans to promote anything legal), they simply don't have the time, money or literacy to go through the channels. Understand that many of these people have families living in slave-like conditions just so they can maybe make it into America, earn some cash and buy their family out of their hell.

The way to catch criminals is not at the border, but where they try to set up shop.

[Boojatta]

149. If you lived in hell, would you start a family there?

Understand that many of these people have families living in slave-like conditions just so they can maybe make it into America, earn some cash and buy their family out of their hell.

[porphyrian]

152. You wouldn't be here if people didn't.

Do you want to think that one out a little more? You don't really think most people in the world are as comfortable as we are, do you? You need to get out more.

[Cerridwen]

71. That was one helluva broad brush you just painted with.

You managed to conflate and relate criminal gang activity with illegal immigrants as though all illegal immigrants are gang members. I'll presume at this point that the tagging was done by a gang and not by some neighborhood kids who need some parenting and that you know for a fact it was a gang comprised of illegal immigrants.

An idea I've always wondered about is whether or not we can bill the country in question.

I've read story after story in which economists, statisticians and politicians quote the cost of the illegal immigration problem. If they do in fact, have some idea of what the costs are, why not break it down by country then send the bill to the country in question? Perhaps if countries had to take financial responsibility for their citizens in this country; they might consider it worth their while to fix their internal issues which force their citizens to move or work elsewhere in order to survive.

If the country in question refuses to pay-up, we "reposess" the country thereby making its citizens U.S. citizens who are awarded the rights of U.S. citizenship including labor laws. I specifically mention labor laws because at that point, the U.S. based corporations who are profiting from illegal immigration (slave wages, lack of benefits, no concern for safety, union avoidance) would now be required to follow national labor laws regarding wage, benefits, safety, etc. as they apply to our new citizens. Our new citizens would now be paying into the system from which many think they unfairly benefit.

As to the criminal element, well I've heard that we in the U.S. have a criminal element, too! *gasp* Gangs, even! Maybe we could deal with our new citizen criminals the way we do with our home-grown criminals?

Anyway, 'ts'just a thought.

[Cleita]

81. Thanks for saying this better than I could.

Attitudes and conflations like this are what spread racism, something we need less and less of today, if we all are going to survive as a species.

[FormerRepublican]

158. Nationalism is not racism. There is a difference.

[Cleita]

168. Well, if you are a nationalist, then why aren't you worried about the

meth epidemic and the crimes perpetrated by it in the white American world? In my area alone there have been stories in the news about people dying from meth, accidentally killing their children while high on meth and having police stand offs for making meth. Funny, that all the news photos show white people being arrested and yet there is no outrage about this problem, which is every bit as serious as the gang problem. Actually, it is moreso because death is often involved and I think that trumps a can of paint.

[Zookeeper]

211. Actually, meth has become part of the border drug traffic...

apparently, a better quality of meth is now being produced in Central America and gangs are moving it into the U.S. I can google a link for that info, if you like.

[FormerRepublican]

161. No conflation. MS-13 is a gang comprised of many illegal immigrants.

If I were to say all illegal immigrants are criminals, which I didn't, that's conflation. If I say MS-13 is a problem of illegal immigration, it's factual, because many of the members are illegal immigrants. And yes, I want something done about illegal immigration because IMO there's no way to separate the problem of MS-13 from the problem of illegal immigration. MS-13 uses illegal immigration to advance their "business".

[Cleita]

171. The majority of illegal immigrants are not MS-13.

But yet you accuse the whole demography of being gang members. Also, any social worker will tell you that the first generation of any immigrants, whether legal or illegal are usually hard working and law abiding.

It is their children who run to gangs for a variety of reasons but mostly from dissatisfaction from being underprivileged and not being parented enough by parents who are working two to three jobs.

I'm not really interested in going into this further to rip your argument apart, but those gang members are probably born here in the USA and American citizens. Just food for thought.

[Cleita]

80. So get a bucket of paint and cover it up. Gangs used to

tag our neighborhood all the time when I lived in Santa Monica. It's there way of telling rival gangs that it's their turf. Removing the graffiti tells them that it's still your turf. Then yell at your mayor or whomever is in charge of where you live to beef up police or sheriff patrol.

But don't accuse everyone of being gang bangers because of the circumstances of their birth. This is like sayng all black men are going to rob you if you get to close to them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Getting rid of their tagging works!

Paint over it ASAP and that sends them a powerful message. There is a reason they tag certain neighborhoods and certain buildings and not others.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. MS 13 is in my community also

And the cops here tell us it is straight out of LA, a spinoff of the Crips and Bloods.

That pretty much blows your 'evil gang straight out of Mexico' theory right out of the water.

Nice attempt at fear mongering though.

[hiley]

127. you might want to read up on MS 13

http://www.hijosdelaguerra.com/pdf/hdlg_synopsis_e.pdf

http://www.hijosdelaguerra.com/
Another PDF
http://www.refugees.org/uploadedFiles/Investigate/ms-13.pdf

The Most Dangerous Gang in America
They're a violent force in 33 states and counting. Inside the battle to police Mara Salvatrucha.

By Arian Campo-Flores
Newsweek

March 28 issue - The signs of a new threat in northern Virginia emerged ominously in blood-spattered urban streets and rural scrub. Two summers ago the body of a young woman who had informed against her former gang associates was found on the banks of the Shenandoah River, repeatedly stabbed and her head nearly severed. Last May in Alexandria, gang members armed with machetes hacked away at a member of the South Side Locos, slicing off some of his fingers and leaving others dangling by a shred of skin. Only a week later in Herndon, a member of the 18th Street gang was pumped full of .38-caliber bullets, while his female companion, who tried to flee, was shot in the back. The assailant, according to a witness, had a large tattoo emblazoned on his forehead. It read MS, for Mara Salvatrucha, the gang allegedly responsible for all these attacks.

<clip>

Composed of mostly Salvadorans and other Central Americans—many of them undocumented—the gang has a uniquely international profile, with an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 members in 33 states in the United States (out of more than 700,000 gang members overall), and tens of thousands more in Central America. It's considered the fastest-growing, most violent and least understood of the nation's street gangs—in part because U.S. law enforcement has not been watching as closely as it might have. As authorities have focused their attention on the war against terrorism, MS-13 has proliferated.
<clip>
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/01/60minutes/main1090941.shtml
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/channel/blog/2006/01/explorer_gangs.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. Well since you don't live here and you don't know the gang members

in my community, I will choose to trust what I know is true.

[hiley]

212. hey, I was just giving info

and you don't know where I live.MS 13 is an horrendous gang like most others {except for their expert use of machetes}.

Trust whatever you like it makes me no never mind.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

111. Vote for Kucinich for President

He said the first thing he did in office would be to get the US out of the WTO and all these one world order trade agreements.

I know he is for really increasing our security in this country, not just giving it lip service while handing out conracts to cronies and taking away our rights with PATRIOT Acts, which Kucinich also wants to get rid of.

Give him a look:

http://www.kucinich.us/

[redherring]

119. From what I understand MS-13 members are from El Salvadore,

not Mexico.

[hiley]

129. most come into US thru

Mexican border..

U.S. steps up battle against Salvadoran gang MS-13
By Danna Harman, USA TODAY
SAN SALVADOR — A street gang based in El Salvador has rapidly spread in the USA and raised enough concern for the Justice Department to create a new task force to battle it. But the head of the task force says the gang has no al-Qaeda connections, despite a suggestion Monday by El Salvador's president that there may be a link.
<clip>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-02-23-gang-salvador_x.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec05/gangs_10-05.pdf

[High Plains]

130. We reap what we sow...

Gee, where did MS-13 come from? Why were there half a million Salvadorans in LA in the 1980s?

They fled the civil war down there where the US government spent $4 billion to make sure the capitalists and nun-killers didn't lose power. About 80,000 people were killed.

So, the Salvadorans settled in LA and some learned how to be gang-bangers. Then some of them took the nasty shit they learned in America back home. Now we have a multinational organization.

I would wager, by the way, that a large number of them are US citizens.

And I think this gang hysteria is a bit overdone anyway.

[Ksec]

132. The way to stop illegal immigration

Confiscate any business caught hiring them. The laws allowing businesses to hire illegals are a freakin joke.

The jobs dry up so so does the illegal immigration..

[Cleita]

173. That's too sensible isn't it?

But I wonder who they will scapegoat next when these targets of bigotry are no longer around?

Will they have equal outrage about the vandalism on public property? The bullet holes in traffic signs and fences? The accompanying empty beer cans spread along the road just about anywhere you go in rural America?

Nah, that's just some good ole boys from the Aryan Nation having fun.

[Raydawg1234]

133. here's how you stop illegal immigration: Bring the army home from Iraq,

and put it on the Mexican border. Controversial yes, but the only real way to stop illegal immigration.


Illegal immigration??? more like an invasion by a foreign country.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

145. Stereotyping is sooo much easier than finding solutions.

And, just as repugnant as cops profiling black men as criminals or the FBI profiling people from the Middle East as terrorists.

[FormerRepublican]

155. Yes, it is. And that's exactly what you're doing to MY concerns.

I'm no more of a stereotype than they are.

Perhaps you'd like to offer up some solutions of your own?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

160. Call the cops?

When criminal activity occurs, call the cops rather than rant about the terrible immigrants.

And, your solution is?

[FormerRepublican]

164. If it's illegal immigrants involved, the cops can do NOTHING!

And your solution to this is...?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

167. Since when?

If an illegal immigrant is caught holding up a liquor store by the cops, then they say excuse us, pat him on the head and give him a lift to the border?

I think not.

[Ksec]

165. I disagree

Thats a weak argument.

And wheres the compassion for the american worker whose getting screwed out of wages and jobs? I understand what you think about illegals not being the real problem but they are part of the problem whether you can admit it or not. Were up against two forces here. Big business and the illegals it hires. For you to say the illegal aliens are not part of the problem is poppycock.

[QC]

175. Cheap labor liberals aren't much concerned with those displaced workers.

Their compassion is reserved for others.

[rockymountaindem]

192. Exactly

I don't get it either.

[Cocoa]

185. did your views on immigration change since you went outside today?

should ours change due to your scary gang?

[Maestro]

188. I am not sure what this has to do with immigration

since MS13 has been active in the US for years and many of its members are born into poverty right here in the good ole US of A.

[Mythsaje]

189. Go after the corporations who hire them

and the corporate officers who look the other way.

Thom Hartmann suggests that if we passed a law threatening jail time for these officers who look the other way, they'd be lined up on THIS side of the border the very next day.

[Warren Stupidity]

193. Uh - gosh I think criminals ought to be arrested.

Don't really matter to me if they came from over there or over here. Graffiti, while annoying, is not actually on the top of most law enforcement priority lists.

[degreesofgray]

197. This problem will not go away

until the government cracks down on those who hire undocumented workers, on those who exploit and underpay undocumented workers, on those who traffic in human misery; until we not only raise the minimum wage but ensure a living wage, until we treat our fellow humans with dignity, until we stop trying to keep the bucket from leaking by blaming the water.

In other words, we're in for a long wait.

[GRLMGC]

198. Wow, all Salvadorans are in gangs?

Oh wait, I'm not. I'm a college student who wants to better her life along with my roommate and several other friends. Do you want to know why Salvadorans are here? Its because of Reagan's deadly policies in Central America which only served to destabalize the region. You're a "former" Republican so chances are you supported all that. Thanks a lot.

[porphyrian]

200. This is a tangent, but I'm still pissed Reagan got out of that shit.

First he lost his mind (while in office, no less), then he dies, then republicans deify the fucking traitor and we have to hear about how great he was for a week. Slippery bastard.

[titoresque]

199. BOOOOOOO-HOOOOOO!

Give me a break! I live in a neighborhood of about 50% white, and 50%
Mexican. My neighbors on each side of me are Mexican. The only trouble
I've ever had was with the previous neighbors on my right who
sold crack out of the house. THEY WERE WHITE. It doesn't matter if people are illegal or not if they're inconsiderate vandals, or junkies, or gang members or WHATEVER it makes no difference the color or nationality.

[hiley]

213. MS 13 are not mostly Mexican they are

mostly Salvadorans and other Central Americans.
Point is the US/Mexican border.