"The duty of art"... WTF?

[cherokeeprogressive]

Okay, shoot me because I think Diana Ossana sounded a little pretentious. Art has a duty? I don't think so.

Art is irrelevant
Art is irreverent
Art is sweetness and light
Art is darkness and horror
Art is truly in the eye and heart of the artist
Art is subjective and not to be judged by any set group of rules

I'm sorry. I thought that the five nominees for BP were chosen because they tweaked the nose of the right. Each and every one of them.

Shouldn't the best picture be the one everyone wants to see? The one everyone sees?

Who are these people (Members of the Academy) anyway?

[Renew Deal]

1. She plagiarized the quote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4844786&mesg_id=4844786

If we went by the movie everyone wants to see or did see, Spiderman 2 would have won.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Okay, maybe "wants to see" or "did see" is over-simplified

I didn't see SpiderMan II. I saw Crash though, and I saw Brokeback Mountain. I nodded off during Brokeback, but was enthralled by the way lives were intertwined in Crash.

[Montauk6]

2. Should we start calling her Ossana Bin Lofty

:+

[Drum]

9. LOL!

[brook]

3. Who are these people (Members of the Academy) anyway?

They are the co-workers & peers of the nominees.

[Renew Deal]

4. It's KKKarl Rove and the Bush cabal.

That made Brokeback a loser.

[crispini]

5. I know a member of the Academy.

He's a minor actor in New York. He takes his Oscar duties very, very seriously. Watches all of the films, every year.

[Lorien]

25. I know a bunch of them-almost applied myself

(three films working in the same capacity-that's a requirement). Most of my Academy member friends do take it seriously. One doesn't-he just votes for the few films he's seen and doesn't bother watching anything that's a period piece, foreign, or has a "liberal" slant to it (he's gone Bushbot since 9/11). For a while he would dump all the movies he didn't want to watch on me. I've got a closet full of them-many of which I have yet to watch.

[brook]

37. Perhaps the rules

have changed over the years.

I don't think this one has: A member votes for people who do the same job they do -i.e., only costumers vote for costumers; editors for editors, etc. When I was involved, you could only vote for films you'd seen at the Academy during the pre-screenings which were held every week for several weeks.

The point was to be recognized by your peers.

[Lorien]

39. If you don't live in L.A. they send the films to you

My friends are in animation; they vote for best picture, best animated picture, best animated short, and best director (four are directors themselves). They still receive 50 or more films by mail every year (if they live outside CA).

[NoodleyAppendage]

6. So, you proposing that pictures like "Soul Plane" be BP picks???

Often these days the movies that "everyone sees" are pieces of shit. Anyone can pick up a camera any make a movie, but not all can make a movie that stands the test of time.

Escapist movies are the Thomas Kinkade tripe of the movie industry. Mass-produced, souless, and devoid of any artistic merit.

The Oscar is given for excellence, not popularity. I only wish the same could be said of our Presidential election process.

JB

[Montauk6]

12. 4 Words

Lord of the Rings. You were saying?;-)

[NoodleyAppendage]

14. LOTR actually was based upon a serious literary work.

In the fantasy genre, you can't get much better than Tolkien. For all its faults, LOTR wasn't without some artistic merit.

JB

[Lorien]

27. I always felt that LOTR went beyond the fantasy genre to modern myth

which is exactly what Tolkien had set out to do. What started as an experiment to discover how language effects the development of societies gradually grew into an attempt to create a myth that would be to Britain what "Beowulf" is to Scandinavia. I think that Joesph Campbell would agree that he succeeded to some extent.

[Renew Deal]

36. LOTR won in 2003.

And it was a great movie.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. "devoid of any artistic merit"

You're the sole judge of what constitutes "artistic merit"?

THAT is pretentious.

Excellence. Define it? And if you choose to do so, would it be your opinion, or that of the intellectually elite, or that of the "great un-washed"?

Get off the high horse.

[NoodleyAppendage]

19. Ah, so I see we have a Dadaist amongst us. Nothing like artistic anarchy.

Without high horses society would be reduced to the lowest common denominator and anarachist views of taste and quality. Thank heavens for pretention. Otherwise, the world's GREATEST ARTISTIC WORKS would be thrown to the dustbin of history.

Under your theory of "art as a popularity contest," masterworks by artistic innovators like Van Gogh, Braque, Munch, and others would not have survived. All were relatively "unpopular" with the public at the time.

Intellectually elite...AND DAMN PROUD OF IT.

JB

[Odin2005]

24. Exactly.

The disdain modern society has for "experts" and "intellectiualls" is pathetic.

[fishwax]

34. van gogh wasn't really popular with the critics of his time, either

he survived in spite of an elite that gladly ignored him during his lifetime.

Of course, I'm only being ornery in pointing out the facts. I agree (to a degree) with the general thrust of your argument. I mean hell, large groups of people often fall for total crap, and the New Kids on the Block sold far more albums than Dylan ever did, so numbers do nothing for me ...

[fishwax]

35. pshaw, he never said he was the sole judge, just that the box office gross

is no judge at all of artistic merit.

[fishwax]

32. you wish our elections weren't based on popular opinion?

;)

[Book Lover]

7. Artists certainly have duties

Duty to the truth they express with their art.
Duty to their craft.
Duty to themselves as artists, that they express their truth as fully as they are able.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. Two words for you: Artistic License

Simply put:

From about.com: ...artistic license means an artist is accorded leeway in his or her interpretation of something, and is not held strictly accountable for accuracy.

Well there goes the truth thing.

Duty to their craft?

Does that mean that when my 6 year old, first grade artist makes a clay dinosaur, it's not art of it's not a "true likeness"?

There goes the craft thing.

"That they express their truth as fully as they are able".

THEIR TRUTH.

IF, and I stress it's a very subjective IF, an artist has a duty, it's "To Thine Own Self Be True". That said, my art is just as artistic as your art might be.

[Book Lover]

20. You misunderstand me

When I create a linocut of Hercules fighting the Nemean Lion, I am obligated to represent my mental image on the block as true as my skill and craft will allow. That truth. The truth I am obligated to express as fully as I am able.

As for your daughter, you know as well as I (another parent) that she is a child and is not held to the same artistic obligations as a mature artist, unless she is a prodigy.

[NoodleyAppendage]

21. I'd like to see your linocut being a bit of a Grecophile...

Care to share your work here? Sounds neat. Have you seen the Herakles/Namean Lion struggle represented on ancient Greek coins from Lucania, Heraclea?

JB

[October]

29. Artistic License is a cliche...

And as far as "true likeness" goes, just because someone can realistically replicate something by painting or sculpting its image, doesn't make it art. That's just one level of a learned skill. It takes much more to take it to the next level. There are color theories, perspectives and many other sciences involved in learning any art form. It's a study, and to suggest otherwise is showing a lack of understanding and an amazing over simplification. Only when an artist can master certain skills can they add their own expression to elevate the work to an art form.

I can cook, but that doesn't make me a chef.

My daughter is a very serious ballet dancer -- she's been studying for years. If someone walked into her class for the first time, they would not be able to do what she does. You might enjoy their movement or expression, and they might have a great time, but it would not be ballet.

[Lorien]

28. As a professional artist, I wholeheartedly agree

and as someone who once worked in the film industry, I can say that adhering to such duties in that industry is a tall order indeed. There are so many obstacles that for those few groups of talented individuals who manage to put forth a bold and visionary work there is...the Academy awards.

[WinkyDink]

8. No, "best" doesn't equal (necessarily) "most popular".

Didn't the 1972 election of Nixon prove that?

It's called "quality".

[The Traveler]

11. "Shouldn't the best picture be ..."

Not necessarily. Van Gogh, for example, was not widely appreciated before he died. Art pushes boundaries, and many people are uncomfortable with that ... thus the best art in film is not necessarily the big box office draw. Consider, for example, the commercial success of Der Arnold ... by your criteria, the Academy should have awarded him a BP at least a few times, a conclusion I would dispute.

[mondo joe]

15. One big fat flaw in your theory: seeing a movie doesn't mean liking it.

What you're proposing is awarding the best marketing.

[Der Blaue Engel]

16. "Shouldn't the best picture be the one everyone wants to see?"

No, that would be The People's Choice Awards.

I disagree that the nominations were purely political; I think it's more likely that this is the kind of art that gets made, that speaks to people, during times of political oppression. And what's wrong with tweaking the nose of the right, anyway, even if that were the case? Fuck the right. Tweak 'em until they bleed, if that's what it takes to get their attention. Thank goddess we don't have state-approved movies...yet.

[Mike03]

38. Good Point

The Academy's taste is not unsimilar to the public's and runs in trends. When politics is not on everyone's mind, you get "Best Pictures" like Chicago and Forrest Gump. There are periodic nice surprises like David Lynch being nominated for Mulholland Drive. I actually thought Munich was the best film of the year, but I didn't expect it to win. In some ways, it is far more controversial than Brokeback or Crash.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

17. No, BP shouldn't be the most popular movie.

Becuase I'd be really pissed if Armageddon had received a Best Picture award.

And as to your question "Who are these people (Members of the Academy) anyway?" See George Clooney's acceptance speech.

[Drum]

22. Art? Duty?

I totally know what you're saying. However, I'm involved in the performing arts (dance) and I can't emphasize enough the big difference in what we do as opposed to the film industry. I mean, duty is such a loaded word, and in my world is more aptly applied to the performer rather than the creator/choreographer. From my experiences, choreographers most want to say something, to experiment..."duty of art" is really not something that the good ones are preoccupied with. Making a film involves so many people that creative vision eminates--or should--from the top as well. Film stands on its own of course, in so many ways, and one of the biggest advantages is in its manipulation and permanant nature. Because it is permanant, a film keeps its impact for every viewing, and thus can continue to affect more people all the time. A film that is really different and special always will be, regardless of how many or few awards it's given.

[Hissyspit]

23. The one everyone sees?? You can tally ticket sales for that. n/t

[Richard Steele]

26. True ART is not a duty, it is an irresistable compulsion. nm

[OneBlueSky]

30. some artists perceive a duty . . . others do not . . .

and we're free (for now) to enjoy the art of both . . .

[fishwax]

31. why should the best picture be the one everyone wants to see?

:shrug:

The prize for being the picture everyone sees is raking in brazillions at the box office.

And whether or not art has a duty, i suppose, is up to the artist.

Why do you think that art is irrelevant?

[Colorado Blue]

33. Actually I agree with her. But then I'm a painter.

I've always felt art is extremely important. Yet it's frequently shortchanged, relegated in our culture to the merely decorative or entertaining. Our culture tends to regard artists as useless, essentially; fluff.

But art can, and often does, embody real emotive, creative power. Artists can reveal aspects of life that people wouldn't ordinarily see, or stop to look at. Do all artists aspire to such levels? No - nor need we. But some do - the Rembrandts, the Spielbergs, the van Goghs. I think Ang Lee has a great vision, Yeats had a tremendous vision that sharpened and dried as he aged; Shakespeare encapsulated an age and made it ageless.

That said, I agree that trying judge art is probably silly. It's so subjective, beyond certain technical standards.