Has George Bush created more jobs for India and China, than he

[The Backlash Cometh]

has for Americans in the U.S.?

Who has the numbers? I think a reality billboard will help wake Americans up.

[HereSince1628]

1. As much as I hate Bush, off-shoring was set in motion before him.

The crisis was clearly foretold during the 1992 national election. Unions sounded the alarm but Democrats ignored them. The guy that actually tried to make an issue was demeaned for having a squeeky voice, big ears, and an overuse of charts.

[niallmac]

2. Now we can all hear the big giant sucking sound. n/t

[0007]

6. Ross baby nailed it! He was right. And the sucking sound

is getting louder and louder.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. The alarm was sounded in 1992, but the Dems stopped being a

factor in 1994 when the Gingrich revolution took over. We lost the Congress and with weak kneed Senators like Lieberman leading us, we weren't going to stop the trend because this was an issue that required educating the public and nobody was going to do that. Instead, you had a Republican Congress and Joe Lieberman pounding on Clinton to move right. A 70 million dollar fishing expedition, a partisan malicious special prosecutor and a conservative echo chamber made sure that Democrats would not get in the way. So, don't blame the Democrats for this. Or if you are, blame people like Lieberman.

[HereSince1628]

7. Clinton endorsed NAFTA in Sept 1992, long before the 94 election

[physioex]

10. As intelligent as Bill Clinton was....

He did set this in motion, and now we are living with the consequences. Not to say that Chimp doesn't bare some of the responsibility......

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Then who influenced him?

Who got to him? The DLC?

[HereSince1628]

15. Clinton WAS the DLC. Paula Stern is credited as convincing him

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. The DLC needs to rethink itself. It's supporting programs and policies

that have grown unpopular.

[physioex]

20. DLC....

In many ways does not represents the values here at DU. It is essentially Republican Lite....

[HereSince1628]

14. I think it was set in motion by corporate interests no later than 88-89

Of course at that time the DLC was pushing hard to develop corporate relations and Clinton's 92 campaign ran hard with the tactic of 'triangulation' trying to steal the R's ownership of issues.

In the end it all added up to Clinton being open to accepting of the persuasion of Paula Stern. She was a trade adviser to the Democrats who is often credited with having convinced Clinton to endorse it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Where is Paula Stern today?

Is she a Democrat or a Libertarian?

[HereSince1628]

22. Paula Stern is a director of Avaya Inc., according to google info

Apparently benefitting from the policy she advocated:

"Dr. Stern is chairwoman of The Stern Group, Inc., an economic analysis and international business and trade advisory firm. She is currently a member of the U.S. President's Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations and previously served as chairwoman of the U.S. International Trade Commission.

Dr. Stern served as an International Affairs Fellow on the Council on Foreign Relations, and as a guest scholar at The Brookings Institution, where she authored a book "Water's Edge" on how U.S. domestic politics shape foreign policy.

Dr. Stern is also a member of the board of Avon Products, Inc., Hasbro, Inc. and The Neiman Marcus Group."

http://www.avaya.com/gcm/master-usa/en-us/corporate/whoisavaya/leadership/boarddirectors/paulastern.htm

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. We need to keep an eye on her.

[HereSince1628]

26. Maybe, but I think the Dems will be increasingly protectionist from 06-08

The Bush administration's funny numbers on employment and earnings can't be hidden much longer, and off-shoring is, rightly or wrongly, going to be a target of blame.

Flat earnings rates, now going negative in younger age groups, American's are doing negative savings, and the housing bubble is losing its gas end the home as ATM, will make protecting the domestic economy an issue of great importance

In the next several years look for the pressure of consumer debt and health care costs to be devastating forces for globalization strategies.

[Warpy]

21. The alarm was sounded in 1972

because that's the year the manufacturing base started to be exported to the extent that union jobs were starting to dry up. Unions sounded the alarm when they saw the good jobs that had been sustaining their members start to go to Mexico, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, and Brazil. At that time, unions meant sweaty guys in wife beater shirts and manufacturing meant ugly buildings behind huge parking lots producing air pollution so nobody much cared that those jobs were going. Educate yourselves! Put on a suit! Follow the American dream! You don't need to be a pipefitter any more!

Ross Perot sounded the alarm in 1992 that if nothing were done to stop the process, other jobs would follow the smelly manufacturing jobs and leave Americans with the fry cook and counterman jobs. He was right.

The DLC has clung to the dogma of free trade, but so have a lot of otherwise prolabor Democrats outside it. The net result is a party that has failed to stand up for its traditional base and now can't figure out how to get back into power.

The utter failure of free trade to benefit most Americans has got to be addressed if the party wants to get anybody beyond yuppies and GOP haters to vote for them. The working class base know they've been hosed for over 30 years and they'll continue to stay home.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. We always thought the takeover of America would be military, but

it came under the radar through business. First, they came for the texile jobs, but I was not a texile worker and I liked to buy my tee-shirts cheap; then, they came for the steel worker, but I am not a steel worker, and I liked to buy my cars cheap; then they came for the manufacturing worker, but I don't work in the manufacturing business and I like to buy my appliances cheap; then they came for the service jobs, and then I became confused because the service industry was suppose to be America's next big industry; then they came for the high-tech engineering jobs and then, it was too late because all our personal information had already been sent overseas by the service people; and then, they came for our ports...but maybe it won't matter now, because I can't afford to buy anything anymore, unless someone dies in my family and leaves inheritance money.

[Radio_Guy]

3. I'm sure it has

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/business/2006/February/business_February619.xml§ion=business&col=

NEW DELHI — Retaining its buoyancy for the third year in succession, the Indian economy is slated to grow at 8.1 per cent in the current financial year 2005-06 ending March 31, 2006. India's GDP grew by 8.5 per cent and 7.5 per cent in the preceding two years, according to the pre-budget Economic Survey 2005-06.

<snip>

By comparison, US GDP rose a mere 3.5% in 2005, 4.2 % in 2004 and a paltry 2.7% in 2003

http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrelarchive/2006/gdp405p.xls

I can't find employment numbers for India, but more employees means a higher GDP. With underemployment growing by leaps and bounds here, negative GDP is right around the corner.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. I think it's a winning campaign slogan for some Democrat:

"The Republicans have created more jobs in India and China, than they have in the U.S."

[HereSince1628]

9. It might work best for an non-incumbent, non-DLC candidate.

Someone who could make a case that they were opposed to the notion of off-shoring from the start. There are only a handful of Democrats who were in national office during the past ten years that can make that case.

[izzie]

8. Well he sure has done well for the body bag business every place.

That is jobs of a type.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. The day is coming soon where Bush's mistake in Iraq will have

killed off more Americans, than the 9/11 suicide bombers.

[leveymg]

11. The theory was that the US had a competitive advantage in high-end

service and technology occupations, and the combination of lower consumer prices for manufactured goods and higher corporate profits (and stock market gains) for globalized firms would translate into more jobs for high-end systems architects, accountants, sales executives and those who provide them with services that the overall economy would grow without a rise in unemployment. Globalization was a New Age term for "Trickle Down" economics.

That cycle reached its point of diminishing returns in 2000-01, and we're now seeing everything being moved offshore, including capital. The free trade model doesn't work to the advantage of America anymore. The Dems have to embrace laws limiting off-shoring and mandating domestic content as a solution, before the domestic jobs and investment base implodes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. We also need to invest time and money into research.

And, perhaps, the most important thing we need to do is create a LOYAL workforce. We're losing corporate secrets for two reasons. One, because there are too many foreigners involved in R&D and because our mean-spirited corporate hatchetmen are creating resentment in the workforce.

[leveymg]

23. We need a half dozen Manhattan Projects and WPAs:

1) investment in public education
2) construct a nationwide intercity light rail system
3) develop low-cost,low-weight, high capacity batteries and fuel cells for vehicles and on-site energy storage
4) high-performance electrical motors
5) residential solar
6) nanotechnology

I think the problem with disloyalty is mainly a home-grown phenomenon that starts at the top.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. kick

Disloyalty occurred because there were too many hatchet men or women coming into corporations and cutting good people out of jobs to justify their CEO salaries. As long as you have that kind of difference in pay, and a feeling that the company couldn't care less who you are as a person, you will end up with disloyal employees. I don't think we can afford that any more.

[area51]

31. "We need a half dozen Manhattan Projects and WPAs"

Hear, hear. Our economy is so bad, w/jobs so scarce, that I've been saying for awhile that we need something like WPAs.

[newportdadde]

19. I blame corporate America not Bush.

No doubt Bush isn't helping matters but the ultimate responsibility lies with our employers. I'm in a profession with a lot of outsourcing(programming) and although part of me wants to blame offshore and onshore programming I can't put the blame on them. They play by a different set of rules(ie not married, no kids, no mortgage and live in an apartment with 4 other guys) so they don't need the same wages I do so I'm at a disadvantage even with better quality work.

However it is my employers who CHOOSES to use their services to help squeeze out an extra penny. Ultimately it will be self defeating as those with experience retire and no one is left to take over for them. For now though they will play with the fire in the hopes of saving a few dollars here and there. So I cannot blame Bush for, he could have sponsored legislation to protect the jobs I suppose but he is a Republican and their party would never do that, to be honest I'm not sure if our DLC party would do it either at this point.

[leveymg]

25. Make it more expensive to off-shore and import.

The solution is simple: reimpose tariffs and require domestic content.

[HereSince1628]

27. At least raise import fees to cover inspecting 30-40% of the cargoes

Even within the WTO rules we can justify national security.

[Sadie5]

29. More jobs everywhere

but where we need them in the US. And all those India and China jobs pay a small fraction of what they used to pay in the US.

[Village Idiot]

32. Corporations are doing what corporations were designed to do:

ENRICH THEIR SHAREHOLDERS.

Governments, however have failed significantly as regulatory bodies to balance this epidemic of outsourcing. They have consistently LIED to the public about it as well, citing the bogus "knowledge gap" and the idea that the outsourcing trend is good for the USA because it is profitable for US corporations.

Exporting well-paying jobs to third-world countries with dismal human rights records because workers can be more cheaply hired, environmental concerns can be shelved and human rights can be abrogated IS NOT A PLAN - it's an AGENDA.

Wake the fuck up, world!

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Are they really enriching their shareholders?

I've noticed a very ugly cycle in Wall Street. We keep getting conned into investing our hard earned money into stocks, planning for retirement, they say. Our investment consultants promise us it's a good investment if you think long term and don't pull your money out when the stocks fall. Well, what is happening is that the crash cycles are occurring closer and closer together. Is it because the bonds and stock related jobs are steadily pulling out our money when they either churn money, or when they regularly receive those $200,000 Christmas bonuses that their industry is known for? With all that pilfering of our hard earned money, is it a surprise when suddenly we realize our stocks were invested in a bubble industry which popped? Never existed in the beginning? Or was over-inflated or over-hyped? I smell scam here.

My mom and dad invested all their money on slow and steady 5% CDs. They did it because they didn't have trust in the slight of hand Wall Street stock market. They were smarter than all of us put together.

[Village Idiot]

34. It's pretty incredible that the US government keeps on...

touting the strength of the economy. Lies, damn lies and statistics...

Personal savings at the lowest point ever...any time someone is pretty much forced to GIVE UP saving money at pathetic interest rates to RISK it all on an economic CRAP SHOOT like the stock markets, you have got to realize that there's SOMETHING broken, don't you?

Nope - I guess not. It's tragic, actually. I know more people that have lost their entire retirement funds to "pump and dump" mutual/hedge fund and stock schemes than ever before...

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. And the greatest insult of all is that Halliburton Dick is telling US to

save. The man has pilfered all of our money through the government to his private cronies, and now that the banks are going to go bankrupt because public money is not there to secure them, he's asking US to put whatever we have back into the banks so that the rest of his buddies can finish us off. FUCK HIM! I hope that Dick Cheney finds the comeuppance that is portrayed in the CRASH movie for people that do the kinds of things he does.