Why Can't We Just let Mexican Workers Sign up and come on

[leftyladyfrommo]

over the border to work? And then they could just go back and forth across the border without risking their lives.

I guess I just don't get it. Can't they just get a worker card and come to work and then go back home when they need to.

They pay taxes just like anyone else.

[wakeme2008]

1. That is Bush's Guest Worker program is all about

It is just his base does not understand it :rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. Oh, stop making sense.

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. Ok, OK I'll stop.

It just seems like so many Mexicans are killing themselves trying to get here for no good reason. We need them and they need us. So we need to just deal with the reality of it.

I don't know about becoming citizens. Can't they just apply like any other immigrant would? I guess if they don't really live here they can't.

I'm sick of seeing stories about dead immigrants. We are a nation of immigrants. So why not the Mexicans?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. I couldn't agree more.

I'm the son of an immigrant who came here to escape poverty. Actually, my grandmother who brought my mother and 3 other daughters here from England via Canada. Her two sons were put out for adoption in Canada, simply because she couldn't feed them after her husband (my grandfather was killed in an accident).

That was back when it was "legal" for white immigrants to come to America.

The vast majority of "illegal" immigrants are simply poor (very poor) people trying to survive. I'm appalled by alleged progressives blaming them for doing what most of us would do in similar circumstances.

[Horse with no Name]

3. One thing that strikes me quite odd

I have friends in Europe who seemingly travel across the borders with ease on holiday and so forth. What about the countries that are landlocked with more than two borders in Europe? Do they have illegal immigrant problems?
Nurses are heavily recruited from other countries to come here and work and are given visas to do so.
However, the only "border" talk is about Mexico.
Canadian nurses come here and "take Amurican jobs" frequently without a word said.
Is it only the professional jobs we don't care about? Is it that most are white?
In other words--we want you if you meet our needs...but fuck you if you don't when it comes to immigration.
Do I have it correct?

[havocmom]

4. And the employers would pay taxes, just like everyone else.

There must be a decent profit in avoiding the paying of payroll taxes by employers. They risk jail by hiring illegals (not often enough though) so it must be worth the risks to them.

And it is easier to exploit illegals in other ways than deal with workers who have papers, and probably some rights. Job safety regulations are MUCH easier to ingore if the workers can't complain. That must save employers a bundle too.

Then, there is the political damage many folks would incur with their constituents by working for such legislation, especially at a time when so many US citizens are unemployed or under employed.

Oh, and there is currently some legal things going on so the LAST bunch of guest workers can get their share of the funds which were withheld from their wages for things like Social Security.

What will local governments do about schooling and medical care? That would need to be worked out also, as many workers have families and bring them to the US. What about the health care of the workers? Medical services for poor working class people is abysmal in this country.

Lots of facets to what seems like a simple program.

[Warpy]

5. They do, but their numbers are limited

to protect American workers. We all know that American employers would be happy campers with a steady supply of legal Mexicans flooding in to work all jobs at $5.15/hour with no benefits. They'd dearly love to have the back end of the restaurant, the floor of the plant, the housekeeping staff, and any other job that doesn't require face to face contact with an English speaking customer to go to a Mexican who is glad to get starvation wages in dollars.

The problem has never been the Mexicans. The problem has always been a government that has sided with cheap labor employers, refusing to fine them or institute any real punishment for replacing an American workforce with a crew of illegal aliens. The problem is a minimum wage that looks like a fortune to a Mexican who can convrt it to pesos but which will not sustain a worker who intends to keep living in the US.

If the minimum wage were raised to a living level and strictly enforced, those cheaper Mexican pairs of hands wouldn't look like as much of a bargain, and the jobs that illegals have no trouble finding would dry up. Given a choice between a worker who shares your culture and language and a worker who does not at the same wage, the employer will hire the former.

[SoCalDem]

7. We used to have a program called "Bracero" where they did that

but the fact still remains that "some people" will always complain about "the other", no matter what..

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

[DemFromMem]

8. That's what the Kennedy-McCain bill is all about.

There's a ton of good information on this topic at the web page of the American Immigration Lawyers Association at www.aila.org. If you want to learn more about the subject and to make your voice heard in Congress, go to http://capwiz.com/aila2/home/.

The Republicans are destroying themselves by being so divided on this issue. The Democrats need to stay unified and so far seem to be doing a good job in that department (despite actually lining up with the President on the one issue about which he's to the left of his party).

[FormerDittoHead]

9. They DON'T pay taxes like anyone else...

This is a bit of a fine point, YES they do PAY TAXES, but they DON'T "pay taxes like anyone else"...

A little over the time of the statute of limitations ago, I worked in the HR dept of a (now defunct) food processing plant where hiring illegals was the accepted practice.

Illegals DO pay into social security - they DO pay taxes.

BUT, I processed the W-4's. EVERY ONE declared at least 6 dependents. At the rate we were paying them, that meant that NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES were taken out. We all knew that they didn't EACH have 6 dependents, they just wrote that in so they'd get out of paying income taxes.

They never FILED their tax returns.

They would leave at the end of our processing season to return the next year with a new name and new social security number. We knew these people, they weren't fooling us, but it was our JOB (or we'd be fired) to accept their identities.

No one ever had a second thought about this. Our mission there was to get our work done. The workers did their jobs, and the only people we (they) screwed over was the government.

Was it wrong. Yes.

Was it illegal. Yes.

Is it being done in THOUSANDS of places all over the country? YES.

I'm not focusing on the workers - it was a two way street.

But don't think for a minute they're paying taxes "like everyone else"...

[NNN0LHI]

10. They pay sales taxes just like we all do on every purchase they make

Can't get around that.

And there are plenty of Americans who pay Ø Federal Income Taxes too. Using legal and illegal methods.

Don

[FormerDittoHead]

17. Please accept my information in the spirit it was given.

If you read my message, you'll see that I was being very specific.

Of course they pay sales tax. I didn't suggest they weren't paying sales tax.

And sales taxes are, of course, state taxes, not federal, which is what I was addressing.

The assertion in the OP was that they pay taxes "like anyone else". My direct experience proves otherwise. It's a fine point and I was careful not to paint with the broad brush that the OP did.

I've already said that yes, they do pay taxes (and tolls etc as well), but specifically, they don't pay federal income taxes, which is different from SS taxes.

I will add that because of the illegal activity of over declaring dependents, they probably get out of paying a lot of state income taxes.

Hmmm, could this be why Texas doesn't have a state income tax, but higher than average sales taxes, taxing everything including services?

[NNN0LHI]

20. No you explained it fairly as far as I am concerned

I was just trying to point out that they do pay a lot of taxes here in the USA. Its unavoidable.

And as far as the loss to state and federal coffers due to the situation you pointed out I would also suspect that actual loss if any is minimal due to the low wages most of them are being paid to begin with.

As a matter of fact if they were legal and did file income tax there is a good chance using their earned income credit and other legal deductions they might get back more than they paid in.

Don

[FormerDittoHead]

24. A HA! We agree...

I agree that their eventual Federal income tax wouldn't be very much.

I'm sure that the total amount of illegal immigration taxes un(der)paid this year wouldn't amount to but a few weeks in Iraq.

[Odin2005]

11. Corporations need thier slave labor.

Illegal immigrants, because of thier ilegal status, can't go to the athorities if thier boss treats them like shit. An amnesty program, or a crackdown on illegal immigration, is bad for profits, so it will never happen. The right just like to bring it up every now and them to get the xenophobes and racists out to vote for the Pukes.

[MadHound]

12. Better yet, let us punish the corporations who hire illegals

And force them to up their pay scale and clean up their working conditions. Then many of those jobs would be taken over by Americans who are desperately looking for work.

[RufusEarl]

19. Totally agree!

This is the only reason i'm against the guest worker program. If employers were required to pay a living wage to guest workers then it would make sense, but american employers don't want to provide decent working conditions along with benefits.

As you mentioned, if american employers has to pay living wages along with benefits, more american would be more then happy to take allot of the jobs that illegals are now doing.

[fasttense]

14. This would be a perfect solution if all citizens would be willing to work

at Wal-Mart wages the rest of their lives. Would you be willing to give up your standard of living in exchange for helping corporate America obtain a cheap labor pool and preventing border crossing deaths?

It's not so much the illegal that is the problem it is corporate America who is pitting their poverty against our middle class. If corporate America could fill every job they have at half the current labor cost wouldn't they? You and I better be prepared to accept working longer hours at half the cost if we allow an influx of immigrants into the US. That is what a flat earth economy does in the United States. It turns profits for corporations, dramatical lowers wages in developed countries while allowing corrupt governments to ignore their social ills and push them off onto more stable economies.

Why isn't Mexico objecting to their citizens leaving in mass? Why aren't they suffering a worker shortage? Because only the poor are leaving. This allows the rich to gain more control and creates even more poverty. Instead of the government addressing the needs of their poverty stricken populace, they encourage them to leave and get help someplace else. To bad US citizens can't get jobs at twice the US rate by crossing the border. Then it would truly be a flat earth economy.

[Yavin4]

15. I Agree With Your Solution, But With One Proviso

Any business that employs anyone without documentation would lose their license immediately, face stiff fines, and imprisonment for multiple offenses.

[Jim__]

16. Do you think there should be a limit on how many can get worker cards?

I think we have a problem if any number of Mexicans can come to work in the US, namely, they will displace American workers. Mexicans, coming from a poor country, will generally work cheaper than Americans, so, employers have an incentive to hire Mexicans over Americans. Politically, Americans are going to fight any program that allows Mexicans to take "their" jobs.

The real problem is that the US is an extremely rich country with Mexico a very poor neighboring country. This causes an immigration problem for the US. I think the only viable solution is for us to help the Mexican economy to grow so that Mexicans can find workt at home.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. Did We Put a Limit on the Irish or Germans or Jews or Asians?

They shouldn't be treated any differently.

If they can come here and learn a trade and learn business they might be able to just go home and take their knowledge with them. It might really be a way out of the awful poverty that makes them risk their lives to get here.

[Jim__]

22. That depends on whether you consider Mexicans to be "free white persons"

IIRC, the Naturalization Act of 1790 allowed any "free, white person" to immigrate. In 1875, the US Supreme Court ruled that the federal government could regulate immigration. Chinese were prohibited from immigrating.

Did the allowance of immigration of any "free, white person" have a negative effecton the lives of current residents? I guess you could ask an American Indian.

You really can't say that whatever was valid in the past is therefore valid now. In the past, the continent was considered to be largely uninhabited - if you just ignore the presence of American Indians - which our immigration policy did - they could just be moved at our convenience. There is a real problem with the importation of essentially unlimited amounts of cheap labor - that displaces current workers. There are large effects from this displacement - not the least of which is political instability.

Immigration is a serious issue; and it is beset with numerous problems. I agree, our current policy doesn't work. That doesn't in any way indicate that we can just abandon any immigration policy and allow anyone to immigrate. That also doesn't work - it destabilizes the economy and the political situation.

My answer to your original question is that just allowing unregulated immigration is not a viable solution to the current immigration problem. Do you not see any problem with a flood of cheap labor entering the country? Do you not see a problem with a sudden jump in population? Do you think if we just allowed free immigration from Mexico we would not incur any serious problems - some more serious than our current problems?

[Coyote_Bandit]

21. What interests should government serve and protect?

Does it protect the interests of American citizen workers to allow foreign workers to easily come across the border to work? Or does such policy serve primarily the interests of (1) those foreign workers and (2) the businesses who hire them?

If we really have a government of, by and for the people then doesn't that government have some obligation to protect the interests of its citizens in being able to earn a living wage - without the necessity of competing in their own homeland often against foreign labor in order to do so? If cheap illegal foreign labor were unavailable would businesses be willing to pay more for services traditionally offered by immigrant workers? Would that better reflect the economic dynamic of demand and supply?

Whose interests does economic globalization serve? Is it possible that furthering a policy of globalization will produce long-term trends that result in rich countries becomming poorer while poor countries become richer? What practical effects would such a trend be expected to have on average citizen workers in those richer countries? Conversely, what effects does such a trend have on multinational corporations?

Have (and do) governments protect the financial interests of their citizen workers by limiting immigration and imposing various tariffs and import taxes? Should they? Is labor a truly global commodity such that any citizen worker who finds himself displaced in his own homeland is able to easily relocate anywhere else in the world to a place where his skills and abilities will earn him a living wage? Should our government protect the earning capacity of workers who are unable to freely relocate and work elsewhere?

Might any of this reflect on the long-term ability of you or your children or your grandchildren to earn a living and have the qualty of life you prefer? Could any of this be relevant to an immigrant worker program?

Silly me. How dare I ask....

[PsN2Wind]

23. Well assuming from your screen name

that you are in MO, then your neck of the woods would be pretty safe from the influx, as that would be a helluva commute. But you're obviously willing to sacrifice the opportunities for gainful employment of those living within several hours travel of the Mexican border. How magnanimous you are in your willingness to sacrifice the living standard of other citizens to make yourself feel good.

[leftyladyfrommo]

25. I'm not making myself feel good.

And we have lots of illegals here. Almost every fast food place in the city is staffed by illegals. All of the roofing crews, most of the sod laying crews, most of the lawn care crews are Mexican.

I just don't think we should treat those from Mexico any differently than we have other immigrant populations.

Most immigrant populations that came in were poor and uneducated. But hard working. And they just pulled themselves up. And they have made this a country like no other in the world.

[PsN2Wind]

26. Are you really about welcoming people to this country

or having your house roofed cheaper, and your sod laid and lawn care done for a lesser amount.
I spent fifteen years in the roofing trade, made pretty fair money. At the time my back went out in '79, I was making $11.70/hour, not big bucks but enough to allow me to buy a home and feed and clothe my family. You would have preferred that I compete with illegal labor which would have had me working for minimum wage which in '79 was $2.90/hr. I doubt that you would have stood outside in the heat I endured for $2.90/hr but you think I should have slaved away at a hot, dirty and dangerous job for minimum wage.
You really feel that we can lift ourselves up from the minority party by telling workers that we should let into this country everyone that wants to come here and compete for their job.
The middle and lower classes have watched their wages stagnate or decline for decades and your ideas would help make them worse.