It only took 11 months to defeat the Nazis.*

[trof]

Allied forces landed at Normandy on June 6, 1944.
What was left of the German military command officially surrendered on May 7, 1945.

We Invaded Iraq on March 19, 2003.
On May 2 of the same year, George W. Bush was flown to an aircraft carrier just off of San Diego and spoke under a banner which proclaimed "Mission Accomplished".

Next March 19th will mark the end of the third year since the Iraq invasion and occupation.
And we're still there.

*I understand that the 11 month time period is a bit simplistic. The U.S. had boots on the ground in North Africa as early as November of 1942. They then fought the Italian campaign with Italy surrendering in September of 1943.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm#1942

[madokie]

1. an army can be defeated, an idealogy, well

[MadMaddie]

2. The difference is during WWII the US let the Generals run the war....

we have civilians running the war just as they did in Vietnam and we have gotten the same result, getting our asses kicked!!

[MrModerate]

11. Oh, I think Georgie is pretty much letting 'em . . .

run it as best they can with less than the historical average of interference.

It's just a war that can't be one by having the bigger battalions.

[patcox2]

15. Nope, not true.

The US has and always will believe in civilian control of the military. During WWII in europe the aramy was frequently interfered with and held back for political reasons (not getting Monty angry was a commmon one). Patton bitched constantly about being held back.

Your comment is word for word the conservative line on the Vietnam war.

The problem isn't civilians interfering with the generals, the problem is trying to use an army to address a problem which requires a different kind of solution.

[Hubert Flottz]

3. And the Russians were killing thousands of Germans too.

And we were bombing the Germans for years.

Edit...The battle of Britan and the war at sea took a toll too. 'INSIDE THE THIRD REICH' by Albert Speer is a great read. Speer kept the war going for Hitler.

[trof]

6. Aug 17, 1942 - First all-American air attack in Europe.

Neat website.

[Hubert Flottz]

25. War is a sad thing. The Germans started it and they paid the...

price. We started the war in Iraq and now Bush wants to invade Iran next. Will we pay the price the Germans paid someday in the not so distant future?


The Fire-bombing of Dresden
An eye-witness account

Since the facts of the combined USAF and RAF raids on Dresden became known, mostly through the novel 'Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut, there has been great controversy as to why this appalling raid was considered necessary.

The city had no military targets to speak of, and it was known that it was packed with civilian refugees from the east. Here is an eye-witness account by Lothar (shown here with his sister), just nine years old, who survived.

It was February. 13th, 1945. I lived with my mother and sisters (13, 5 and 5 months old twins) in Dresden and was looking forward to celebrating my 10th birthday February l6th. My father, a carpenter, had been a soldier since 1939 and we got his last letter in August 1944. My mother was very sad to receive her letters back with the note: "Not to be found." We lived in a 3 room flat on the 4th floor in a working class region of our town. I remember celebrating Shrove Tuesday (February 13th) together with other children, The activities of the war in the east came nearer and nearer. Lots of soldiers went east and lots of refugees went west through our town or stayed there, also in the air raid night February13th/14th.

About 9:30 PM the alarm was given. We children knew that sound and got up and dressed quickly, to hurry downstairs into our cellar which we used as an air raid shelter. My older sister and I carried my baby twin sisters, my mother carried a little suitcase and the bottles with milk for our babies. On the radio we heard with great horror the news: "Attention, a great air raid will corne over our town!" This news I will never forget. More

http://timewitnesses.org/english/~lothar.html

The WWII Dresden Holocaust -
'A Single Column Of Flame'

snip.

Dresden's citizens barely had time to reach their shelters. The first bomb fell at 10:09 p.m. The attack lasted 24 minutes, leaving the inner city a raging sea of fire. "Precision saturation bombing" had created the desired firestorm.

A firestorm is caused when hundreds of smaller fires join in one vast conflagration. Huge masses of air are sucked in to feed the inferno, causing an artificial tornado. Those persons unlucky enough to be caught in the rush of wind are hurled down entire streets into the flames. Those who seek refuge underground often suffocate as oxygen is pulled from the air to feed the blaze, or they perish in a blast of white heat--heat intense enough to melt human flesh.

One eyewitness who survived told of seeing "young women carrying babies running up and down the streets, their dresses and hair on fire, screaming until they fell down, or the collapsing buildings fell on top of them."

There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.More.

http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

Horrific fire-bombing images published

A ceremony has been held in the central German town of Kassel, marking the 60th anniversary of an allied bombing raid that claimed more than 10,000 lives in a single night.

snip...

"Goebbels forbade these photos of our victims from the German papers," says Mr Friedrich. "In a way, we've obeyed his orders until this day."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3211690.stm

"Goebbels forbade these photos of our victims from the German papers," says Mr Friedrich. "In a way, we've obeyed his orders until this day." (just like Rummy wants to keep a lid on the pictures from Iraq.)

This is just a story about ONE NIGHT in the bombing of Germany. A bombing campaign which went on for four years, because you must remember, that the English had dropped thousands of tons of bombs on Germany, by the time the US dropped it's first load of bombs on Germany. The English, IMO, had every right to attack Germany, because Germany had murdered thousands, in their air raids on the UK. I myself believe, that near the end of WW II, things like the fire bombing of Dresden were overkill.

Hitler wanted WAR, his people backed his play and they paid one hell of a price! We as a nation have backed Bush, in much the same way.

Saddam was not connected to 9/11! I believe that history will bear that fact out. There were NO WMDs. The neocons had no more reason to invade Iraq, than Hitler had to invade Poland.

[skylarmae]

4. Isn't March 19th going to be the 3rd anniversary?

[MrModerate]

7. 3rd year/2nd anniversary n/t

[trof]

8. Yeah, that's kinda confusing. Need to edit. Thanks.

[MrModerate]

5. Perhaps because the Nazis conveniently and tidily . . .

Stood up in conventional military units to be shot down by what became overwhelming military force. And we didn't give a rat's ass what we blew up to get 'em.

Things are a tad different now. Al Qaeda and like-minded Islamofascists don't bother fighting with obsolete, inappropriate techniques that are subject to defeat when met with heavy boots on the ground. Not being stupid -- and not being a nation-state, but more a state of mind -- they use techniques that work for them, especially against bloody-minded fools like Bush and his gang of snot.

[On the Road]

10. "Al Qaeda and like-minded Islamofascists"

?

[MrModerate]

12. This is in reference to excuse number 6 . . .

(Or was it number 7? I can never keep track.) as to why we're in Iraq at all: To Fight The Terr'ists.

[Radio_Guy]

9. Wrong war

This one will eclipse Vietnam both in length and casualties.

[trof]

13. I know, I just like the time comparison.

And the fact that the nazis were an industrial war machine and Iraq is almost a third world country.
If it wasn't before, it is now.
:-(

[unblock]

14. the 11 month thing is even more simplistic than that

let's not forget our soviet allies who were seriously draining the nazis in russia.
italy was not only gutted but some of the italians joined up with the allies against germany.

the bottom line is that germany was already on the decline by d-day. starting the clock as of the start of a particular campaign by primarily one of several allies is rather distorting what really happened.

the war started in 1939, it took nearly 6 years to finish them off.

[David Zephyr]

16. It took far more than just 11 months to defeat the Nazis.

The French and the English and the Canadians and the Australians had been fighting the Nazis for years (yes, that's plural) before the United States ever even entered the war. And let's not overlook the Soviets and their great contribution in defeating the Nazis.

The French declared war against Germany not because they were attacked, but because Poland was invaded. The United States, however, only went to war after we were attacked. Whose entry into the war against the Nazis should then be judged more noble?

By the time of the Normandy Invasion, the Russians had contained a great majority of the Nazi armed forces, as well.

The self-serving, false and egocentric lore among Americans that "we won the war in 11 months" is not worthy of a great people. True, we did our part and made a great sacrifice in World War II, but our allies also did their part, did it years earlier, and they distinguished themselves from us by doing it in the aid of other nations, not because they themselves were attacked.

It is foolish for Americans to diminish the war efforts by the French, the English, the Australians , the Soviets and the Canadians during World War II in order to embellish our own contribution in it. In fact, our allies could easily respond calling our efforts a "mop up" after the fact, couldn't they?

[Boojatta]

26. Rating how noble a given declaration of war was.

The French declared war against Germany not because they were attacked, but because Poland was invaded. The United States, however, only went to war after we were attacked. Whose entry into the war against the Nazis should then be judged more noble?

Didn't a state of war between the USA and Iraq originally arise because Iraq invaded Kuwait? Would that have been a less noble action if Iraq had attacked the USA? I have heard the opposite: that the US didn't even have a right to attack Iraq because the USA was not itself threatened.

Once a state of war between the USA and Iraq was established, did it continue as a cold war that later heated up?

Didn't the Nazis benefit from French territory and equipment?Would it have been less noble for the French government to maintain a state of neutrality, strongly defend France, and keep French territory and weaponry out of the hands of the Nazis?

[David Zephyr]

29. Are you suggesting that the French, British, Canadians, Aussies..

should have sat out all of those first years of the war?

My nuanced question with regards to nobility was not so much about when the French went to war with the Nazis as it was about when we finally did.

I don't participate in feel-good French bashing at the DU. I admire the French and thank them for helping us defeat the British and win our independence.

The Poles know who stood up to the Nazis first and who didn't. So do the families of the Holocaust survivors. We were more than a day late and more than a dollar short.

[Boojatta]

32. An answer and more questions

Are you suggesting that the French, British, Canadians, Aussies.. should have sat out all of those first years of the war?

No. Can you quote some words I wrote that made you think that I was suggesting something regarding Australians?

My nuanced question with regards to ...

Are you using the term "nuanced" because you asked a number of questions and they were not all nuanced and you want to make it clear which question you are referring to?

Alternatively, have you already identified a particular question and are you now claiming that it is nuanced?

[David Zephyr]

34. You are a funny one. I'll keep you in mind.

And I'll keep you on "ignore" here.

[Hobarticus]

17. Bullshit. There was no war against Nazi Germany, at all, until D-Day?

Ask Britain, they fought the Nazis for six years.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

18. Might have a hard time convincing the millions of

US, UK and ANZAC troops who fought and died in North Africa, Italy, Turkey, Greece, and Palastine before 1944.

[Hobarticus]

20. Plus about 20 million Russians...

Think the OP needs to spend some time in a high school history class. Or better yet, actually READ through their own link.

:eyes:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

22. And the Belgians, French, Polish

and Romanians who were scattered all over the place before the Blitzkrieg.

[Hobarticus]

24. Ethiopians, Libyans, Norwegians, Dutch....

Sure wish they could've pitched in, but hey.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

28. Hard to fight Nazis when you are a refugee

in the UK

[TheBaldyMan]

31. and the Poles, Czechs, Russians, French, ...

WWII = September 1939 to August 1945 for an awful lot of the allies.

[tocqueville]

19. and they had the help of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

Soviet : 10 million men
UK : 6 million
Free France : 1 million

"not counting" Aussies, Canadians etc.... etc...

[trof]

21. Oh dear, I have offended DU historians.

It was meant to be a simple little catchy propaganda piece and it incurred the wrath of the historians.
I knew it would.
How come the repugs can get away with stuff like this all the time?
:evilgrin:

[onenote]

23. because they have no respect for history, facts, truth...

[Hobarticus]

27. A better analogy would have been, it took ten years until the Allies

had felt they had "denazified" Germany sufficiently.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueCollar]

33. Britain resisted the Nazis beginning in Sept 39...eom