Men Working to End Male Dominance

[shance]

MEN WORKING TO END MALE DOMINANCE

Three articles by males that deal with specific steps men, (as well as some women), can take to end domination by males, whites, professionals, loud mouths, bullies, frauds, etc. in any situation.


WORKING TOGETHER FOR CHANGE
from an article by Bill Moyers that is widely used in nonviolence training publications.



Many of the problems we run into in movement groups are those of domination within the movement.

People join a social change movement in order to alleviate an external problem.

Too often we are confronted with the same kind of behavior we find in our everyday lives.

We’re all too often stifled by heavy-handed authority: bosses at work, parents or spouse at home and teachers at school.

People want not only to be accepted in these groups, but also to make a contribution and be active participants. In order to work successfully to change things we must also pay attention to our own behavior.

More often than not, men are the ones dominating group activity. Such behavior is therefore termed a “masculine behavior pattern,” not because women never act that way, but because it is generally men who do.

Men are beginning to take responsibility for their behavior. The following are some of the more common problems to become aware of:

Hogging the show. Talking too much, too long, too loud.

Problem solver. Continually giving the answer or solution before others have had much chance to contribute.

Speaking in capital letters. Giving one’s own solutions or opinions as the final word on the subject, often aggravated by tone of voice and body posture.

Defensiveness. Responding to every contrary opinion as though it were a personal attack.

Nitpicking. Picking out minor flaws in statements of others and stating the exception to every generality.

Restating. Especially what a woman has just said perfectly clearly.

Attention seeking. Using all sort of dramatics to get the spotlight.

Task and content focus. To the exclusion of nurturing individuals or the group through attention to process and form.

Put downs and one-up-manship. “I used to believe that, but now...” or “How can you possibly say that...?”

Negativism. Finding something wrong or problematical in everything.

Focus transfer. Transferring the focus of the discussion to one’s own pet issues in order to give one’s own pet raps.

Residual office holder. Hanging on to former powerful positions.

(snip)

If sexism isn’t ended within social change groups there can’t be a movement for real social change. Not only will the movement flounder amidst divisiveness, but the crucial issue of liberation from sex oppression will not be dealt with. Any change of society which does not include the freeing of women and men from oppressive sexrole conditioning, from subtle as well as blatant forms of male supremacy, is incomplete.

Here are some specific ways we can be responsible to ourselves and others in groups:

Not interrupting people who are speaking. We can even leave space after each speaker, counting to five before speaking.

Becoming a good listener. Good listening is as important as good speaking. It’s important not to withdraw when not speaking; good listening is active participation.

Getting and giving support. We can help each other be aware of and interrupt patterns of domination, as well as affirm each other as we move away from those ways. It is important that men support and challenge each other, rather than asking women to do so. This will also allow women more space to break out of their own conditioned role of looking after men’s needs while ignoring their own.

Not giving answers and solutions. We can give our opinions in a manner which says we believe our ideas to be valuable, but no more important than others’ ideas.

(snip)

Interrupting others’ oppressive behavior. We should take responsbility for interrupting a brother who is exhibiting behavior which is oppressive to others and prohibits his own growth. It is no act of friendship to allow friends, to continue dominating those around them. We need to learn caring and forthright ways of doing this.

TOOLS FOR WHITE GUYS WHO ARE WORKING FOR SOCIAL CHANGE
AND OTHERS SOCIALIZED IN A SOCIETY BASED ON DOMINATION

Chris Chrass

1. Practice noticing who's in the room at meetings - how many men,
how many women, how many white people, how many people of color, is
it majority heterosexual, are there out queers, what are people's
class backgrounds. Don't assume to know people, but also work at
being more aware.

(snip)

12. Remember that social change is a process, and that our
individual transformation and individual liberation is intimately
interconnected with social transformation and social liberation.
Life is profoundly complex and there are many contradictions.
Remember that the path we travel is guided by love, dignity and
respect - even when it is bumpy and difficult to navigate.

13. This list is not limited to white guys, nor is it intended to
reduce all white guys into one category. This list is intended to
disrupt patterns of domination which hurt our movement and hurt each
other. White guys have a lot of work to do, but it is the kind of
work that makes life worth living.

14. Day-to-day patterns of domination are the glue that maintain
systems of domination. The struggle against capitalism, white
supremacy, patriarchy, heterosexism and the state, is also the
struggle towards collective liberation.

15. No one is free until all of us are free.

http://www.carolmoore.net/sfm/vs-dominance.html

[Canuckistanian]

1. OK, I'll speak first, I think this is great

Male dominance doesn't seems to helping anything these days.

This culture is overdosing on Testosterone.

[shance]

7. Thanks Canuck* A friend of mine made a good point the other day

regarding our societies obsession on women's estrogen levels, while its the overzealous testosterone that seems to be destroying everything in sight.

What's wrong with that picture?

[Dora]

2. K&R

[omega minimo]

3. "If sexism isn’t ended w/n social change groups there can’t be a movement"

"If sexism isn’t ended within social change groups there can’t be a movement for real social change. Not only will the movement flounder amidst divisiveness, but the crucial issue of liberation from sex oppression will not be dealt with. Any change of society which does not include the freeing of women and men from oppressive sexrole conditioning, from subtle as well as blatant forms of male supremacy, is incomplete."

This is why it is worth trying to address in a place such as this. And why entrenched sexism is a danger signal for Dems and progressive boards, as well as "within social change groups." This is stated very well here and makes the point that "subtle as well as blatant forms of male supremacy" negatively impact women AND men.

-------------------

to add to the list above from a local MoveOn group meeting a year ago:

Discussion groups broke into two due to a big turnout. Ours was app. 50 folks. A man and women were facilitators. The man ended up in charge and the woman got to stand at the board and write on post its and put them on the board.......... :eyes:

Here's the thing: The (older, white) male leader did this time after time after time....... when a man spoke, the leader responded to or picked up on what he said and the flow of conversation was moved.

When a women spoke, the leader WAITED UNTIL SHE STOPPED SPEAKING, didn't respond at all, and went back to whatever track he was on as if she had not spoken.

[shance]

5. Thanks Omega. That is an example of what women see often and

its diminishing and belittling.

I watched last night on the Oscars a man and a woman win (cant remember who - it was artistic direction of something!). The man gave his speech (did you notice the men never thought to allow a woman to go first who won as well, it was always the men). Then, when when the woman tried to say something, they cut off the microphone. She looked embarassed and it was so unbelievable. My friend and I just sat there.

The sexism and disrespect is becoming more obvious in many arenas. I don't think it will stop either until women say enough and secure men address it with other men. I think it's a given that if white men were being treated in such a way, they would be screaming from the rafters and from every network and magazine available.

This is why I appreciated Bill Moyers addressing the issue. I think it will make a bigger impact, when men address it with each other. However, in the meantime, women need to return to our power and dignity as women and not give it up to men. It should not belong to anyone but ourselves, and each other as women.

[nick303]

4. IMHO you take the advice given here at your peril

For the top half, I'd agree nitpicking and negativism are definitely out. However, I try to picture the person who follows the rest of the advice and I see someone who is timid and ineffective. It's a tough, unfair world out there, and I think you would be better off by having more assertive women than having more timid men (I also this think this is the more plausible possibility).

"Practice noticing who's in the room at meetings - how many men,
how many women, how many white people, how many people of color, is
it majority heterosexual, are there out queers, what are people's
class backgrounds."

I shouldn't have read any further after this, what a disgusting way of viewing the world. Again my opinion, this is morally equivalent to "making note of" people's background for less benign purposes.

[shance]

6. Mutual respect and courtesy for others is considered "timidity"?

And rudeness, overzealous aggression, and an inability to tolerate others is considered "assertive"?

Where I come from it's called immaturity, and/or infantilism.

If you want to impress women and/or other men for that matter, rudeness never works. It may instill fear or intimidation for the short term, but eventually the gig is up and they will figure you out.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[nick303]

42. I'm a tragic victim of low postism

I'll admit, when I made my post I was thinking mainly of a professional setting ( a la "the board room"), but I think my comment also applies to most academic environments. In a social change organization, the strategies above may (or may not) make sense, but what comes after that? What about all the non-political organizations out there, especially the workplace?

From a very broad outlook, I think I want the same thing that the author of that article wants-- a fair playing field for anyone in a discussion. We just disagree on the practical way of getting there.

This is mostly a framing issue- sort of the difference between being "cocky" vs. "confident", but if I had to border on someone considering me rude or timid, I'll err on the side of rude every time. So with that in mind I have some real issues with the practicality of the suggestions in the article. You will not be able to get aggressive people to take it down a notch or two, and if you try to lead by example in this regard on a micro level, you will probably just end up with most people thinking you're a chump.

I'll close with an example that I witnessed recently. The genders of the people in this story are not important, it's just an example of behavior that I see that I don't think will be going away any time soon. I am a consultant, currently on site at a large, well known company. I was in a meeting with some employees of this company. We're currently working on a project that is about a month behind. So as this meeting came to a close, the woman in charge of the project said something to the effective of "We just need to communicate better, I'm not pointing any fingers, Nobody is at fault here..". Then a guy we'll call Bob said "Actually, it's all Steve's fault... yeah that's right, I'm not afraid to name names". To be fair Steve could have done a better job managing things up to this point. My point is however that the behavior of people like Bob isn't nice, it isn't especially constructive, but it isn't going away, no matter if you'd like it to or not. So I ask, what would you have said after that if you were Steve? I'll post what he actually did and what I would have done in a bit.

[RazzleDazzle]

15. Well, lookee here

A Case Study Personified has walked in to provide us with His Wisdom and the Right Way to Think About Life and Everything.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. The problem with that line of attack

Is that it can be used against any objection with equal validity.

If you have specific objections to the post, fine, but "How dare you tell me what you think I should think" isn't legitimate.

And the post you're replying to is anything but dogmatic, dictatorial or over-assertive, so even if your point was "I don't like your tone", I don't think it's reasonable.

[Cleita]

9. Great that these men realize that there is a problem. What

bothers me is that they are giving us permission to agree with them. I think we need to confront just those loudmouths etc. on our own terms. I had a confrontation with a rather large man in the supermarket recently because of what is a lack of these large men not looking at where they are stepping and whom they may be stepping on.

I am five feet, one and am constantly dodging these guys who step in the aisle with both feet spread apart and often step backwards into you without looking to see if anyone is in their way like a little old lady or a child. It really comes from this male entitlement that men have. They don't feel that they have to share the aisle.

So after 60 years of getting fed-up with this. I yelled at this man to watch where he was going. He was rude enough to tell me that I shouldn't have been in his way. I was rude enough to tell him that he was a self-centered creep who needed to be taught some manners.

So I vent.

[petgoat]

10. I have been watching at meetings of two groups I attend

I noticed that men frequently interrupt women. The women often look frustrated, but they rarely
object.

Men frequently interrupt women
Men rarely interrupt another man
Women never interrupt another woman (sometimes an alpha woman will)
Women rarely interrupt a man--sometimes to get the floor back when they've been interrupted

Interestingly, though an alpha woman will sometimes interrupt a woman and occasionally even a man,
even alpha women rarely object to being interrupted by men.

I suspect we all learned back in school days that this is how it's supposed to be, and that's why
most of the women go along with it.

[Cleita]

11. Or, maybe we choose to pick our battles since we

are the underlings.

Look at what is happening to those two brave women Medea and Cindy as I type this.

[shance]

12. Absolutely Cleita* And they are but a few.

We don't have to look far to find many brave women (and men too) fighting against wrong headed and wrong hearted policies implemented by privileged men at the expense of everyone but themselves.

[RazzleDazzle]

16. The flaw in that thinking

IMO, is that in "picking" one's battles to the exclusion of others, you cede ground when on an issue such as women's rights and women's equality, ceding ANY ground is ceding a little bit of all ground. If you're unwilling to fight the little things, the bigger things will overwhelm you.

That's exactly what has happened since the full measure of gains we made as women. We weren't vigilant, we let this go and that go, didn't pay attention to how the anti-discrimination laws were being enforced or the diminishment of our roles in myriad ways including all the rampant and truly ugly sexism in the media, and oops!! SUDDENLY, as if without notice, we've got 11 states in the process of actively banning abortion (with one already finished with the job), and a Supreme Court potentially willing to let them get away with it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x591015#595427

Something like that doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens when individual women have been unwilling to continue to insist on full equality. It happens when individual women have "picked their battles" so damn carefully that suddenly we are hard pressed to JOIN the battle at all.

[Cleita]

17. I agree with you in principle, but in reality we have to

do what is doable. Just because you retreat from one battlefield doesn't mean you aren't planning a sneak attack when they all go to sleep thinking they have beaten you.

[kineneb]

19. the whole problem is with identity

We all need to stop thinking "I am a ___, so I must act like ___" and start thinking "I am person, just like every other person, and must treat those around me with courtesy (even if they are assholes)." Some men need to consider being less forward and some women less timid.

I was raised in a relatively "gender-neutral" environment, and was encouraged to speak up for myself. Some guys think I am bossy, so I must be doing something right! :-)

[lukasahero]

13. K&R eom

[bettyellen]

14. K+R

[RazzleDazzle]

18. Another thing men typically do, and aren't even aware of it

That's the rub, you know -- they aren't even fucking aware of the dominance they portray.

They take up more than their share of room. I've actually sat next to men in meetings, all of us sitting in those greige folding chairs, and the guy next to me spreads all out so that HIS feet and part of his legs are in front of MY chair. And not just once by one guy, either.

On elevators they will stand facing the front and keep edging back so you're squished against the back wall while they have several comfortable empty feet in front of them.

They'll slop over the arm rail on air flights if you let them.

Standing with another or in groups they'll put their elbows out to the sides to command more room than other people have as well. Or spread out their feet in such a way as to command more of the surrounding area than others have.

Yeah, they're bigger (most men), as a rule. But they STILL demand more than their proportionate share of the available space.

They also tend to talk louder (mentioned above) and sometimes faster than others -- and often refuse to yield to interruptions (even when appropriate) -- so they can dominate conversations.

I love the list -- you see it at work right here at DU. In fact, we should make a handy copy of it and point it out every time we find one of those behaviors here.

[petgoat]

22. Lack of awareness is an important point, quite aside from

disrespect.

From watching, I got the impression that women were deferring to interrupting men without even thinking about it, and men were interrupting without even thinking about it.

Becoming consciously aware of your actions and habits and attitudes is the way to achieve greater control of them, and hence, freedom.

[RazzleDazzle]

23. Well said, and a very good observation

Too many women need a little (or a lot) CONSCIOUSNESS RAISING about some of these things, methinks.

[petgoat]

24. Well the men could use a bit too.

We all can. Like I said, I think these social norms go back to school days when boys interrupting
was presumably tolerated so we all of us got the idea that was the way things were supposed to be.

[MountainLaurel]

43. This needs to be screamed from the mountaintops

That's the rub, you know -- they aren't even fucking aware of the dominance they portray.

:applause:


They aren't aware because they don't have to be.

[newyawker99]

70. This looks broad brush.

[BoneDaddy]

20. It is about basic respect

and I don't see that from a good number of people in here about men. if I said the shit about women that I hear women say about men, I would have been run through the gauntlet. I don't say it cause I don't believe it. So tired of this shit.

[zanne]

25. Tired, huh?

Thousands of years of oppression, but it's just too much for you when women "complain"?

[BoneDaddy]

30. Women can complain all they want...

Complaining is one thing, being abusive hypocrites is another.

[omega minimo]

39. Yep! That's why women "complain" about "abusive hypocrites"!!!!!11

:bounce: :bounce:

[Name removed]

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[kalibex]

53. Oh, and lemmee guess...

You're the one(s) defining 'abusive' versus 'complaining' - not us.

How convenient. :eyes:

-B

[BoneDaddy]

73. if the shoe fits

wear it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[omega minimo]

40. ...as we are tired of this same ole ill-logical mindfuck

It may make sense in Limbaugh Land or "Men's Rights" drum circles, but the men jumping in this thread and accusing women of being hypocrites are letting their defensiveness get the better of them.

"I have been and will continue to support the women's movement for freedom and equality, but it doesn't mean I will sit back and watch you make not only illogical and irrational statements and not be challenged.

"In what ways have I been sexist? I have great respect for women, this argument is with you and your warped views about what you think you can do to others, I have no respect for you. Not because you are a women, but because of how you act."

The way you and others may show that respect is not to attack us for comments that we make. For example, if you thought comments were "illogical and irrational" and MUST BE CHALLENGED, one might ASK or DISCUSS instead of go on an insulting rant.

Rather than throw a muddy boot in the middle of the discussion and dump on the people here discussing the OP, perhaps you could comment on abusive, dominant behavior that you observe......... or some situation where you noticed (or didn't) that some people feel more entitled to space/attention/credibility than their fair share and deny those things to others................. sometimes with such sense of automatic entitlement that they are unaware of it. (And with apologies, that is a frequent challenge for men to acknowledge when they are-- well-- unaware of it).

It's been pointed out that the OP was about bullies and not just typical male ones.

[hfojvt]

46. it may have been intended to be about bullies

but when the bullies are singled out for being male and white, then it seemed to spill over onto all men, or at least all white men. The following quotes from the thread, do not single out bullies as much as they single out men.

"More often than not, men are the ones dominating group activity."

"Another thing men typically do, and aren't even aware of it..."

"Men frequently interrupt women
Men rarely interrupt another man"

"It really comes from this male entitlement that men have. They don't feel that they have to share the aisle."

"When you can see that in almost all cases YOU as a male have an advantage over almost all women and resolve to change the balance, then you'll gain my respect,..."

It seems that my perspective here and my experience here must be invalid. That my own position on the "social food chain" has hardly been a privileged one, and, again, the mere fact that I have both gender and skin pigmentation in common with many of the dominating ones - does not make me part of the problem. Or is it part of my "white male entitlement" to feel that I should not be a target of a broadbrush smear any more than I should engage in one?

[omega minimo]

47. Those comments don't "invalidate" your perspective or experience

You may think a post an over-generalization or untrue, but it isn't about you, unless it is, right? For us to talk openly about it is not "a broadbrush smear." The comments also come from the four articles in the OP. Have you looked at any of the info or considered where it comes from or did you feel personally insulted by the subject?

If we can step back and listen and recognize INSTEAD OF DOMINATE AND PUT DOWN what people are saying, we might learn something.

I shared a story up above and thought it might get flamed, but it was a direct observation of repetitive behavior in an example of what the OP brought up (progressive groups).

There are STUDIES on all this stuff, sociological documentation of the behaviors described here.

The sad part is that we can't come here (all of us) and learn from each other rather than get pissed off. The thing about the quotes you mentioned, as hard as it may be for men to get, as "unfair" as it may seem, these things ACTUALLY HAPPEN, they are part of women's daily experience and many men ARE largley unaware of body language, spatial relationships, conversational control, etc.........................

You brought up a good example:

"It really comes from this male entitlement that men have. They don't feel that they have to share the aisle."

This can be read AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE INNATE, UNCONSCIOUS, UNAWARE ENTITLEMENT that many men have, rather than an indictment of something they are DOING. To a man, that might sound like that guy is acting like a jerk. If you listened to women's experience, you might learn what women experience is the FACT that many men do not recognize the personal space boundaries of women; and sometimes men don't pay attention to what's around them AS IF THEY ARE THE ONLY PERSON THERE unless of course there's another man............................................... this lack of awareness includes lack of willingness to hear it pointed out by women. :eyes:

Think about this. Just reflect on the enormous difference in the perceptions and experience b/w men and women based on the fact that their perceptions of going out alone at night are different based on gender.

[hfojvt]

48. in the statement you mentioned

it apparently is about me, whether I think, or know it is, or not.

"It really comes from this male entitlement that men have. They don't feel that they have to share the aisle."

If this is a "male entitlement that men have" because the poster did not feel the need to include the adjective "some" or even "most". None of the quotes qualified it, at all. They were not about "male bullies" or "inconsiderate" or "dominant" or "privileged" men except in the sense that they said that ALL men are bullies, inconsiderate, dominant, and/or privileged.

So apparently while I was working as a lowly temp, a part time janitor and experiencing hundreds of almost daily subtle and not so subtle threats, harrassment, disrespect and disparagement from both men and women and boys and girls that I encounter, I really did not realize how privileged I was because the President, 93% of Congress and CEOs, 86% of business owners had the same Y chromosome and skin pigmentation as me, and so does the huge guy who walks around with his sense of entitlement. But "it ain't me. It ain't me. I ain't no fortunate son. No. No. No."

And the only reason I feel kinda safe at night is because I stay in small towns, but in this town I felt the need to buy pepper spray.

[omega minimo]

49. Points well taken. And thank you for turning this into a discussion

From your personal story, it makes clear how the TopDog thing occurs in all situations, in different ways. The OP and links address the universal aspects of "domination"-- we live in a world where that dominant role is typically malecentric. That's how it is. That doesn't mean it happens that a TopDog is ALWAYS male. That would be silly.

I work with a female who is very loud. She sounds like she's yelling on the phone, with customers, with coworkers, when she's two feet away-- doesn't matter. Some sort of dominance thing. And who knows how AWARE of it she is. :shrug:

As I read the story you referenced, the line you selected made sense in context. It seems as unfair to the writer as to the reader, if one assumes that she meant ALL men. That would be silly. She made a generalization. And from my experience, I knew exactly what she was talking about. Does that mean every time I see a man, I think he's going to step on me? No. Does it mean that if I'm in a shop behind a man I pay attention to whether he's paying attention to his surroundings or oblivious? Yes. Do I sound like Donald Rumsfeld? GRACIOUS SAKES, NO!

Thanks again, hfojvt, and I sincerely apologize for once saying your screename spells :spray:.........................:evilgrin:


Cleita (1000+ posts) Mon Mar-06-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great that these men realize that there is a problem. What
bothers me is that they are giving us permission to agree with them. I think we need to confront just those loudmouths etc. on our own terms. I had a confrontation with a rather large man in the supermarket recently because of what is a lack of these large men not looking at where they are stepping and whom they may be stepping on.
I am five feet, one and am constantly dodging these guys who step in the aisle with both feet spread apart and often step backwards into you without looking to see if anyone is in their way like a little old lady or a child. It really comes from this male entitlement that men have. They don't feel that they have to share the aisle.
So after 60 years of getting fed-up with this. I yelled at this man to watch where he was going. He was rude enough to tell me that I shouldn't have been in his way. I was rude enough to tell him that he was a self-centered creep who needed to be taught some manners.
So I vent.

[mongo]

77. If an over- generalization about men isn't about me personally

then why is calling condi rice a bitch about you personally, or any number of DU'ers that have fought that battle?

You can't have it both ways...

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[omega minimo]

57. "I love you hypocrites, you simply are so self unaware of your own crap."

:loveya:

[zanne]

62. Sounds personal, bonedaddy

When you've had thousands of years of abuse and oppression, I'll listen respectfully to your complaints.

[rman]

27. so it's generally women who are being disrespectful?

it seems i got it all backwards.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[omega minimo]

45. "Gender fundies"?!! There's a readymade slur to go with the Attitude?

"GENDER FUNDIES"?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 :wtf:


:eyes: Perhaps you didnae notice the title of this thread (on "Male Dominance") or were surprised by the comments associated with male dominant behavior that you found there, or fell onto this board by accident......................

This is what happens, time and again. Even in a thread where the context for discussion is clearly stated. Or ought I say "ESPECIALLY" where the context for discussion is clearly stated. If women on DU raise these issues and say what we want to say openly in discussion, outside of certain basement forums where it is "tolerated," we get bullied, badgered, harrassed, shouted down, hijacked, shut down, misrepresented, misquoted, misunderstood-on-purpose, stalked, trolled, personally attacked and-- if we protest and challenge the attackers-- locked.

That sort of reaction is textbook example of the kind of (male) dominant behavior the OP is addressing.

It would be a step forward if we could-- just ONCE-- have an adult, rational discussion in the context of DU Rules and Democratic goals without being completely distracted with arguing this kind of petty bullshit. Not only do the attackers swarm every thread, they have it worked out somehow that THEY are being "victimized."

As for the sneering slur "gender fundies" and the disrespectful, antagonistic, undemocratic, male-dominant and non-productive attitudes it indicates, all I can say is :puke:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[omega minimo]

56. If it abuses like a hypocrite

"But in your warped lil world, I am not allowed to speak up and stand up to your bullshit because I am a man and I need to sit and take your crap.....WRONG."

It appears you entered a thread titled "Men Working To End Male Dominance" with a chip on your shoulder.

"It is because you sound like an ass and they know you are wrong."

You are exhibiting the behaviors that the various OP articles were addressing as problematic.

Using slurs like "gender fundies" destroys credibility.

I pointed out that you might have conversed about the posts you disliked, rather than attacking. Read the thread title next time and don't enter if you are not interested in having a discussion.

:yoiks:

[BoneDaddy]

59. You are perceptive

Yes, I entered into the topic with some real frustration. I am not apologetic about it. As I have said ad nauseum, there has been a recent trend of male bashing posts and I came in with guns blazing towards the idiots who were participating in it. What don't you understand about that? My responses were upon INDIVIDUALS who I disagreed with. I didn't throw WOMEN under the bus nor would I ever do that, nor will I accept anything but the same in return.

What don't you understand about that? IF I started a thread that slammed women, do you think I would expect you to enter into that discussion calm, passive and open? Not at all.

As for "gender fundies or fascists" well all I gotta say is that it is the closest thing I could think of that fits the behavior of some of the posters who posted. Similar to the projection and cognitive dissonance of the republican fascists and the religious fundamentals, this attack on MEN as a group is everything I said it is as well as morally wrong.
I don't care what you think of it as or if I lose credibility in your eyes, if you participated in it or justified it, aren't you accountable too? Isn't that what you tell men who do not stand up against misogyny?

[mongo]

80. Why is that any critisism of posts on certain topics

is always characterized by a few DU'ers as "bullied, badgered, harrassed, shouted down, hijacked, shut down, misrepresented, misquoted, misunderstood-on-purpose, stalked, trolled, personally attacked"

It seems you want an "adult, rational discussion" of one side of the argument. Especially if many points raised don't hold water when held up to the light.

[omega minimo]

84. Giving credit where it's due MOngo

it's incomprehensible how you dare even ask that question.

:scared: :wow: :crazy:



And you'll notice the "gender fundie" "critic" got deleted bigtime.

28. this is a huge subject that would be hard to

discuss in a well rounded way, but to pick a couple of thoughts that come to my mind - isn't a lot of male dominance to boost the guy's ego, so he can feel virile and sexually competent? And secondly I think a lot of women go along with it and boost the male ego too, and try to keep other women down. It is a cultural thing.

[Ksec]

31. I care not who dominates as long as its the best

The best way for someone to dominate is to be the best at what they do.

[shance]

34. Any one faction that dominates suboordinates the voices of all others.

or stands to disregard all other voices.

I think that's the core issue.

Any one particular group that dominates is the problem. It's not the fact it happens to be white males, as much as it is the reality it is one particular group that is not listening to anyone who is not in their core group.

The issue of dominance implies that others should adhere to those dominating.

If we look at what our current situation is we have a few that are dominating the actions of this country and these actions are being done in America's name. However, the actions are putting everyone in danger as a result. Not to mention those who are dominating, illegitimately when you consider the elections were by all accounts stolen, are not listening to the rule of law, or any of us as American citizens.

That is the problem. Our planet is essentially being held hostage by those who are not being held accountable for anything they are doing and as a result they are again, putting everybody at risk and our futures at risk.

When authority and power becomes imbalanced in such a way that it is not only involuntarily but it is creating more division and harm, then that is in every capacity that I can see wrong for all that are involved, and that would include every creature human and otherwise on the planet.

[bettyellen]

35. i have seen this so many times at liberal political meetings....

they want a woman's "input" only when they are passing along a volunteer list for grunt work.
fuck being treated like that. i get enough of that in the business world, i won't be treated like a second class citizen on my own time.

[shance]

36. Yes, I think the first step is people waking up to this and seeing

how the dynamics work.

I think many men, primarily white men, probably aren't able to see what others who arent white and male deal with on a daily basis, because it doesnt or hasn't affected them first hand.

I understand that, because as a white female, there are certainly things that I am insensitive to or disregard, because they haven't immediately affected me in some way and I haven't experienced them.

However, that's what is important is for us to begin looking outside ourselves and seeing the bigger picture of how our choices inevitably affect everyone and our attitudes and perceptions, and equally our prejudices.

Our prejudices come from being insulated and separated from situations and others who are outside our immediate circle. If we live in a tree house and never leave it to see other things, we are going to only see things from a certain view.

That view will become our reality even though it is only one perspective out of millions. We essentially become impaired when we limit our thoughts and our experiences to a safety zone that only consists of things we are comfortable seeing and doing.

I think the imbalance of power and overall sexism and racism is and has been a cultural/media driven issue.

I think one thing to consider regarding the media is, if white males own and run all media outlets, how discrimnitory is that in and of itself?

As far as accuracy, how can media be "fair and balanced" if all of our news is being aired from this one perspective? A perspective which largely has been isolated from many of the prejudices and assumptions that have been made about women and others who are not "white"?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Maybe It's My Region, But All Those Things Listed I Generally See 50/50.

Most of those behaviors I find common in both sexes, probably by about a 50/50 split from my experience thusfar in life. That isn't to say the ratio isn't worse other places or hasn't historically at times been worse, I'm just speaking from what I know.

When I read the list, it didn't remind me of Men. It reminded me of a personality type, common in Men and Women who have it. Though part of me thinks that entire article is sexist in several ways, I also can't ignore the past in which things were far worse than they are today. So any movements to improve treating others fairly, even if sexist in their scope, is still a positive thing in my book!

[shance]

37. Those are good points.

I would disagree from my perspective it is 50/50, but I wholeheartedly agree it is not soley a gender issue.

There are certainly women who dominate and will boss and bully others.

[Katherine Brengle]

38. Perfect, exactly what I was trying to explain in the "man bashing"

thread a few minutes ago.

Until men work to end male domination of our culture, it will never end, and everything else just stems from that domination...

[shance]

41. Good point. I would add as a woman, until women come to value

support and protect each other (and ourselves), and cease defining ourselves through a male-dominated media and culture, things will not change either. We will continue to be objectified, marginalized and demonized by those who support such a system. Many who support the system are also women. It will take all of us.

In addition, it is only by all of us seeing how important it is to have mutual respect and admiration for all individuals which will allow everyone the freedom we all want. As one of the writers put it in the original post, no one is free until we all are free.

[cally]

44. I've seen this in too many progressive organizations.

Men interrupting women and trying to dominate. It detracts from women's involvement and the goals of the organization. Luckily, I've also see women call them on it and try to change the dynamics.

The organizations which allow a few to dominate lose the ideas, energy, and often the commitment of all those relegated to the sidelines. Maybe it works when you are paid to be there, but not when it's a volunteer organization or a group trying to promote change.

K & R

[Mr.Green93]

54. If white women would stop having white men's

children a lot would change.

[shance]

67. Well many white male leaders in South Dakota would disagree with you

or atleast many of them would.

They want to ensure that women have as many babies as possible which of course, the male leaders will have no responsibility for their upbringing just ensuring that the women have them.

[MadHound]

55. And thus it begins, and thus we all lose

I promised myself I wouldn't jump into one of these threads, nothing good could possibly come from it. But, hey, promises are meant to be broken sometimes, so here I am:shrug:

What I find incredibly sad is here we are, doing the work of the fascists for them. Our esteemed female posters are slamming, bashing and broad brushing all men(most of it justifiable). Our esteemed male posters are taking offense because they consider themselves to be caring, non-sexist, non-misogynistic men in favor of equal rights for all, and are irritated that they are caught up in these broad brush venting attacks(again, most of it justifiably so). Everybody is now at each others' throats, raging and screaming, shouting and venting.

And thus we're divided, and thus we're conquered.

Eye on the ball people, eye on the ball. We're going to have to ALL work together to throw back this encroaching disaster, and allowing ourselves to be so effectively divided at the moment when we need to be our most united is not conducive to winning this war on fascism.

Men, realize that the women around here have some good and valid points. They are feeling quite threatened right now, and are lashing out and lashing back. Yes, there are going to be some broad brush statements, but I would suggest that you ignore them for now, and instead of reacting with venom of your own, understand what they're going through and allow them a little leeway.

Women, realize that there are many, many men, both here and in the broader world that have supported your cause and have fought just as hard as you have to gain equality for women. Yet when these men hear some of these broad brush attacks, they feel betrayed and angry, having worked hard for years and decades on behalf of womens' equality. A few qualifiers in your posts would probably go a long way to mitigating this.

All of you, don't fall into this trap again and again. We must present a united front against all of the outrages that are being perpetrated on us, and devolving into an angry, squabbling mob over one issue is counter productive for success on all of the issues facing us.

OK, I'm going to go:hide: now, I know what generally happens when one steps into the middle of a mess like this.

[omega minimo]

58. Discussing experience isnt "slam/bashing, broadbrushing all men"

:brave: very good post toward mediation

However, everyone who enters this thread is aware of the title, the OP (which immediately underlined that the behaviors are not only male) and CANNOT be surprised that women would discuss our experience of the discussion topic. :crazy:

The fact that "even on DU" we can't have this sort of discussion without being bullied (proving the point of the OP/articles :crazy: ) and that some men can't drop their defensiveness long enough to consider what is actually being said..............

Adds up to terrible distraction and constant deterrant to addressing the issues and learning from each other. Our time is spent fending off bullies while trying to not get threads locked.

Look at the exchange I had with :spray: hvojpt... It worked out cuz we listened to each other. No mystery there.

"And thus we're divided, and thus we're conquered."

This is a good point. Women here require some forbearance and basic courtesy from men when they read things they may not realize women have to say-- because women continue to disappear and silence themselves here, as men (whether aware of it or not) continue to dominate the board.

edit: I meant :applause: but decided to leave :brave: That too! :hi:

[MadHound]

60. I agree with you up to a point

I also see the broad brush attacks on all men, even the ones who are caring, tolerant and supportive here at DU. Like I said earlier, this leads to frustration and anger on the part of these men. What I'm trying to say is that there is anger, both justified and not, on both sides, and it is starting to pull us apart.

I would also like to point out that abortion has been used as a very effective wedge issue for decades now in keeping people who had so many problems and outlooks in common apart. Now we're seeing that wedge starting to go to work here, and we need to put a stop to it.

One more thing to consider, that perhaps some of these male posters that you and others are allowing to anger you are nothing more than trolls, coming here and making these outrageous and misogynistic statements in order to do just what is happening, drive us apart.

I think a stepping back is needed, a cooling off, a consideration of others. Mindlessly flailing away by both parties is going to do nothing but cause problems, both here and down the road.

[omega minimo]

61. That may not be necessary as good women continue to go away

:yoiks:

[MadHound]

63. Good women go away, Go away from where, here, or the party

:shrug:

Sorry, but I think picking up your marbles and leaving is counter productive. The vast majority of men on this board, and in the party for that matter, are decent reasonable human beings. If you allow the few trolls and true misogynists drive you away, then guess what, the anti-feminists have won already, and we will have all lost.

Rather I think we should all, men and women, cool off for a bit, then come together and work in a spirit of cooperation to bring back sanity and justice to this country.

[omega minimo]

64. Yes

:patriot:

[VelmaD]

65. One thing that I think might surprise you...

is that many women on this board (and in the party) don't agree with you that most men on DU and in the Democratic Party are "decent reasonable human beings" when it comes to standing up for women's rights.

I know a lot of men will likely jump down my throat now. I'm not saying any individual man in particular is not "decent" and "reasonable". I'm just telling you that in many women's experience...we are not treated in a way that makes us believe that the majority of men in the party would really stand up with us when push comes to shove.

[MadHound]

66. Maybe, maybe not,

But picking up your marbles and going home isn't going to accomplish anything productive, while sticking around here and actually finding out just might.

And frankly, I think that you would be suprised. I remember back in the bad old days, and how many men came out to work shoulder to shoulder with women on both the abortion issue and ERA.

Give it a chance, allow yourself to be pleasantly suprised.

[VelmaD]

71. You're preaching to the choir...

I'm notorious for sticking around here and fighting about women's rights issues. I'm bound and determined to run the misogyny out of the Party. Along with the racism and homophobia. :)

And btw, I'm not some green kid who doesn't have a sense of the history of the fight for women's rights. I know some men were involved. I've been active in the Party and politics for years so I've been sticking it out and giving it a chance for a long time now. Please don't assume.

[MadHound]

79. I know you're not leaving, I've seen you around for too long

It wouldn't be the same without you;) And you do good work here too, though some may choose not to listen.

Nor was I assuming anything on your part. I don't know your age, and thus was using the "bad ol' days" schtick as a reminder, both for you and those who weren't there.

[omega minimo]

72. This thread contains proof of why

"...we are not treated in a way that makes us believe that the majority of men in the party would really stand up with us..."

The thread where I asked "Pro Choice AND Pro Woman?" as invitation to speak out, received more proof.

We hear here from the men who are defensive, but not so much from the ones who are supportive.

[shance]

69. What is sad is your denial and insensitivity to others experiences MH.

You seem to want us to put everyone who is not white and male, back into our "place" and then we can all come together in a "spirit of cooperation", which otherwise defined, is to continue to allow one faction to dominate every area of everyones' lives and our choices. No one group should ever need to dominate and control everyone else.

I don't find that to be a 'spirit of cooperation' - that is trying to essentially shame everyone else into submission.

[MadHound]

74. *Sigh*

I knew I shouldn't get into this, for this very reason, people misreading my posts and my intentions. Please, please, re-read my posts in this thread. Where, exactly, have I even given the hint that I "want us to put everyone who is not white and male, back into our "place"", or that I'm defending one faction over another? I'm striving hard to be even-handed in this matter, pointing out the problems of both sides, and I'm also telling both sides that they need to back off, cool off, and then come back together to work together. I truly think that you're reading more into my posts that are there. Especially funny that you mention that I'm wanting to put everyone who isn't white or female back in their place. Now why would I want to do that, in so much as by doing so I would be disrespecting not only my friends, but also my family and ancestors, who are both black and female:shrug:

It is because of reactions just like yours that I'm suggesting that people, get that, people, need to back away and chill out for a bit. People get worked up, pissed off, and start reading things into statements and suggestions that really isn't there.

And gee, if I was wanting women to submit, why in the hell would I have fought for abortion and the ERA? Why would I be married to a very *independent* woman? Gee, think it could be that I believe that women should be equal and independent, that it could be that I come from a family of independent and free women? Nah, must be because I want to dominate and control women, shame them into "submission":eyes: Whatever.

I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this thread, just for this reason:yoiks:

[omega minimo]

76. I appreciate what yer tryin to do

[MadHound]

78. Thank you, I really appreciate that

'Scuse me now, I'm going to go throw myself on another live grenade:evilgrin:

[shance]

88. Im sorry you feel misunderstood. So do many women.

And others who have been ignored, discriminated against and even harmed because of being a women, or not lucky enough to be white and male.

I say that not to blame you or anyone, but to acknowledge a much ignored truth.

[shance]

68. Did you read the post? The articles are written by men, not women bashers

Bill Moyers and Chris Chrass, who as men, have the awareness to see the dominance being perpetuated at the expense of what is more representative of everyone.

When did acknowledging realities become bashing?

[MadHound]

75. Umm, I'm not really talking about those articles friend

I'm talking about the male-female divide that is opening up both here and in the wider world in general because of the SD abortion law. Too many people jumping on each other's cases over this, when in reality if people would just calm down a bit, most would realize that the "other side" is wanting to help them.

[shance]

87. Are you afraid of acknowledging that there is a divide? Because there is.

We as women are not trying to use the Bible or any other religious excuse to control and manipulate your bodies as men and make you as a man, our property.

There most assuredly is an assault on women, by many men.

It is also being enabled by other women who support a patriarchal/oppressive form of living.

Your patronizing tone is a bit humorous because of course you don't want to look at the women and men who are being oppressed by controlling, overzealous males who want to dominate everyone and everything.

[omega minimo]

82. When it upsets the status quo

"When did acknowledging realities become bashing?"

[newportdadde]

81. I think some women expect men to be more aggressive in meetings.

Both my managers are alpha females, have been for years.

I'm a pretty laid back guy and in meetings will tend to take a wait and see approach until asked a question or until a subject comes up that I am knowledgeable about and then I try to be very respectful when I talk. I do not talk just to hear myself speak.

I get dinged for this on performance because I'm not vocal enough(ie RUDE). Thats right I get dinged for not perpetuating a stereotype :wtf:.

I guess I just come at this from a unique perspective, in our meetings out of 6/7 I'm the only male and none of my current coworkers or superiors are male. So I sit and watch while boss and underling go out shopping over lunch, talk about hair styles etc. I also make less then anyone in the room and this is in IT not exactly what you would normally think of as a female dominated workplace.

My situation may not be typical but when I read a thread like Male Dominance I just kind of laugh to myself, I don't feel very dominant.

Really your descriptions reminded me not of genders but of personality types and I can think of quite a few from both genders I've been around.

[shance]

85. I agree. However on a grander scale, it is a given, I believe if you

have been a women or a male who is not Anglo/white, I would imagine those of us in that category can name more than a number of times how we have been disregarded primarily by those in power, being white male. Yes I would certainly agree with you it's often personality types, and it is not necessarily about being white and male, however those are the ones who are in power (white, wealthy males, along with a handfull of others who tow the line) are ignoring the most pressing problems facing this country and this planet.

If Bill Moyers has had the insight to understand the problem, along with those of us who have experienced it, I think you can say this is an issue.

Not to mention taking a look at the Congressional leadership - Predominantly all white and all wealthy. Look at where our Congressional leadership is taking us. Its time to have leadership that is more representative of this country's economic and social and cultural backgrounds. Having a privileged white male network and club is not serving anyone in this nation, including them. They apparently know not what they do. Or if they do, they care not that they are extinguishing every natural resource on the planet and every element of what is sacred and selling it off to the highest bidder.

[Ksec]

83. Why must we always be at war with one another?

Blacks against whites. Gays against straights. Pro choice against anti abortion. Men against women. Dogs against cats. (well strike that one)Dominants against subordinates.

Cmon people now. Smile on your brother. Everybody get together, try to love one another right now.

Cheesy enough for ya? I got more where that came from.

[shance]

86. Easy for those to say who are suppressing everyone else

People are dying because of our horrific, dishonest, cowardly leadership. Our country is being sold off because of this leadership.

Our leadership consists of predominantly wealthy, privileged white males with a handful of others who do their bidding.

When our planet is at stake, we have to look at who is leading our path towards the cliff. We have an imbalance of power by racist ideologues who are incapable of fair, honest governing and everyone on the planet is paying for it.

I will "smile" on those who deserve my smile. I will not enable murderers and cheats who hide behind their religion and use their money to further destroy everything and everyone who is good.

[Sheri]

89. I wanna puke.

Mothers make misogynists. It is because mothers instill patriarchal values into their sons that we have patriarchy. I don't blame the men. I blame the women who made the chauvinist pigs.

And I blame young women who would rather date the captain of the football team rather than the wimpy, geeky guys. If the desirable women choose the chauvinist pig, all the guys learn pretty quickly to be chauvinist pigs.

And we want to blame men for that? Makes me sick. :puke:

[Laelth]

90. LOL

I always wondered why I could never get a date. Not piggish enough. :rofl:

Sad to say, I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, here.

-Laelth