If a child were successfully shielded from all life's trauma and injustice

[jpgray]

Poll question: If a child were successfully shielded from all life's trauma and injustice

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. Real life can be a B*tch...

If they don't learn that before going out into the real world, they aren't going to be able to cope. imho

[cynatnite]

2. They would have no concept of real life...

trauma and injustice is a part of real life and in preparation they need to see that it exists.

[sandnsea]

3. I went with other

Because I think the child would be incredibly loving and extremely well adjusted -- to live in whatever protected world the parent had created. I've read of tribes around the world and how they raise their children with constant love and very little, if any, judgement or negativity. They, in turn, become very loving and giving and confident adults. Would it translate to being adjusted to living in any modern city?? Probably not. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be the right way to raise a child if ALL children were raised that way though.

[cynatnite]

5. but how prepared would a child be without...

understanding bad things happen and life isn't fair? Could they know how to handle it when faced with it? Would they be empowered in some way by not being exposed to injustice and trauma?

Trauma covers a lot of ground so I'm not exactly sure what the OP had in mind when using the word.

But I'm of the belief if my child is going to be prepared to live in the world as it is today, they need to understand shit happens.

[sandnsea]

10. Which is why I chose other

Because I believe a child raised with nothing but love and acceptance, and who was going to live in that environment as an adult, would be seen as perfectly well adjusted. In response to the OP, it is possible and I think it would be a sad day if everybody lost the belief in that possibility. I also think that if you live in a tribal village, with the whims of nature and human nature, you're going to naturally learn that life isn't fair. And so what. Pick up and keep going, like everybody else does anyway.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. Interesting

Under the scenario that you're describing the entire concept of fairness as we know it could be altered. Certain things occur and that's a natural part of life, such as death for example. However, death isn't a time of mourning for all cultures. Some view it as a time of joy at the ascension or rebirth of the one that died.

[sandnsea]

25. My mother died when I was 1

My father remarried a woman who was, shall we say, a neurotic perfectionist prone to fits of rage. My entire life has revolved around dealing with the concept of fairness. Between the natural realm and human nature, fairness doesn't exist. Unless the fairness is in the fact that there will be unfairness.

[jpgray]

7. Nah--his/her peers would still tease/beat the crap out of him/her

:D

[sandnsea]

8. No they don't

It is completely foreign to some of these cultures. How would you know to tease or hit if you've literally never seen it before?

[jpgray]

9. Eh, how do bear cubs learn to fight each other?

Natural behavior, instinct--competing on some level to vie for social position happens in every human society, and not a few animal ones.

[sandnsea]

11. Yeah, it's in their culture

They learn it by observing it, some of it is imprinted I'd imagine. Not true for humans, every human does not have a need to bash somebody else in the head.

[jpgray]

12. We're animals like any other

Our instincts to bash the crap out of each other are just like our instincts for empathy and charitable behavior--natural.

[sandnsea]

13. I completely disagree

Empathy and charity are not natural instincts, people raised without appropriate love and attachment don't develop those instincts at all. But like I said, you'd have to have a complete village raised with complete sharing and no sense of ownership, no hitting at all, in order to avoid the physical altercations. We don't have that, but based on some tribal studies, it is possible.

[jpgray]

14. If they aren't natural, where did they come from?

If you posit that a trait must be taught, logically there was a point in the past where no one existed to teach the trait. Thus someone became possessed of it in another way. For that to happen, the trait has to be naturally occurring.

[sandnsea]

15. Self defense

Developed over time as humans fought animals in the wild. Gone array at some point, but if it isn't perpetually taught, it would not exist in a culture. Look at Europe if you don't believe it.

[REP]

16. Ah, Those Peaceful Nordic People - The Vikings!

Oh, and don't forget ancient Celtic culture, with their ritually tortured bog sacrifices. Peaceful and loving!

[sandnsea]

17. Now

I kind of thought that was obvious. All tribes did not develop warrior mentalities, even among the North American tribes. It's just wrong to say there's no other option for the human race.

[REP]

18. Germany?

They've had some problems in the last 100 years, wouldn't you say?

Did you see what happened in France a few months ago?

Have you been here long?

[sandnsea]

20. Reread the thread

I already said that we don't have a society where all people are raised violence free. But Europe is certainly on a better path than the US. And there are and have been cultures that were violence free in the past as well. It's certainly possible.

[REP]

21. "But Europe is certainly on a better path than the US."

"Ans there are and have been cultures that were violence free in the past as well."

Nope. You lose on both counts, but thanks for playing!

Tee hee.

[sandnsea]

24. Because you say so

Great game. Make your own rules. Who taught you that??

[REP]

37. You Did. I Learn Fast.

[IChing]

28. No your logic loses

sorry
thanks for playing

[REP]

35. The Irony Is Priceless!

I haven't laughed so much since the last time I read y~... well, I've said enough.

[IChing]

39. Well Jesus said the same thing about your since of history

and denial of it.

LOL, LOL , LOL

your post is a joke
Right?


no you are serious in the thing of the bible right?

Oh, yes your posts have gotten nominations for its
LOGIC and history

right ?

I haven't laughed so much since the last time I read y~... well, I've said enough.

enough is not what you defended Mr. Last Time.

[REP]

40. Step Away From The Bong Slowly

1. Not Xian

2. Not a Mr

3. Made no bible references

Still laughing, but no longer with you.

[IChing]

42. OH, no logic reply just personal attacks?

ON me?


Still laughing

but with your mama

[REP]

44. Peace Be With You, Little Girl

I hope your cramps are better soon.

[IChing]

41. Any fool that puts the totality of his reality in a finite of absolute

Plays a game in his own mind, and cannot discuss or play in the consciousness of history


that will burn the truth in stake of his soul
or confess, in torture, the logic of his totality.

You r killing us with your thoughts,

really

and u guys normally have done that over the centuries.

LOL

I know straw dogs arguments

[REP]

43. Intimately, I See

I must stop taunting the afflicted.

If it makes you feel better to think of me as a Xian male, then you go right ahead, dearest.

[IChing]

47. now on your logic it you still answer on a personal basis

I am a female,

"I stop taunting the afflicted."


I have found your god
and I am saved


YOU WIN,
I GO TO YOUR CHURCH
I HAVE NO LONGER THE RIGHT
TO HAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION


YOU WIN
THAT AMENDENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION MEANS NOTHING TO YOU


"I stop taunting the afflicted."

[treestar]

56. IA, because humans are thinking beings and they change and

advance, so animal comparisons do not illustrate well, IMO.

[IChing]

23. You r right they had nothing over the Christians

I agree, your religion didn't do anything wrong,

Your knowledge of history of Christianity is on the empire education of the roman empire.

And will not talk about ritual burning of human beings in this country


I am Warlock
burn me



I am Druid
burn me

I am a witch
i am a pagan.
drown me
with your logic.

Do not get self righteous in your religion
without looking at the apron of blood on your own religion in the history

[REP]

34. No One was Burned In The United States

Hanged and "pressed" (Giles Corey), but not burned.

Don't know who you're calling a Xian.

[IChing]

46. "No One was Burned In The United States"

We have Mr. History here


That Knows nothing of the Salem Witch Trails


Drowned, burned (saints), at least she wasn't a woman.


it is a matter of death we give unbelievers that is righteous
that is a saintly matter.

100 years of war in the name of god


and at least
what the pope did for the last 500 yrs here in these lands in the name of your god

[treestar]

55. Because we aren't animals, we develop new and different

things as history goes along. It is also natural to humans to advance.

[Jamastiene]

36. Yep, I had my fair share of that growing up. n/t

[NMMNG]

48. I hear ya.

Been there, done that.




Haven't seen you around much lately--you been away or have we just been missing each other? :hug:

[Jamastiene]

49. I've been up to my neck in numbers at school lately.

I do have this week off and I intend to spend a lot of time here during this week. I love having one glorious week off. I intend to enjoy it too. I needed this spring break badly. I'm having those middle of the semester panics again where I can't seem to get my shit together. I usually pull through, but I am feeling burnt out lately. I've been chosen to represent the school in Raleigh in April. Nice honor. The lady who took my picture for the paper said that basically this award meant the school was going to "trot" me out "in front of all the politicians" to say "these are your brightest students in colleges in NC. Give us more money." She actually said that. So I guess they are pimping me out to the politicians for the evening. There is a bright side. I'll get to shake hands with a real good Democrat in this state, which is hard to come by, ya know. So, it will be fun. Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that they think I am one of the brightest in the whole college. Fools. They actually think that. Haha. Oh well, that 4.0 GPA isn't going to waste, at least. Good to see you. It's been a while since I've been here. I've missed it.

[NMMNG]

50. 4.0 GPA?

Wow, that makes my 3.33 look like mule puke. :puke: Oh well, there's always grad school.

Congratulations on being one of the school's poster people for the cause. :applause: Maybe you can put a bug in that politician's ear. ;-)

Hope to see you around some more. :hug:

[Book Lover]

4. Then s/he would become the Buddha

if you believe the stories, that is.

[NuttyFluffers]

31. Only after shock seeing life's trauma and injustice all at once later.

if you believe the stories, yes.

[IChing]

6. I would still stick explosives down a frog's mouth

Of course my family

was from

Connecticut

I was shielded by human injustices
but we were only living in the BUSH

Most of our lives.

[0007]

19. Ah, the the qualities of a good leader.

[IChing]

27. lol

Torture
is the christian way


we have the chambers
to make you confess

in the middle ages

I can give photos(they will not release now)
what they did to the Jews
and the non believers


Buddha Jesus and Mohammed all the greatest
r saying the same thing
but in different cutlure

Now where is that
Hemlock?

[Peter Frank]

26. The Key-word here is "All" (life's trauma and injustice)...

With this mindset -- the book/movie "Old Yeller" would be too much. We need to give young people more credit. Many of them are more capable philosophers than ourselves.

[badgerpup]

29. nice idea, but not practical

I remember the first time my Mom did something and my response was "That's not fair!"
and her reply was "Yeah, well, life's not fair!"
I was devastated.
Shielding a kid from ALL trauma and injustice, i.e. to the point s/he isn't aware that they exist is really counter-productive.
You get nice people, yeah...but you also get people with NO CLUE about the real world, how it works, and the fact that it is a nasty, brutal place.
These 'nice people' frequently get eaten alive, get killed really fast, turn to drugs and alcohol to cope, or go crazy.

Easy for me to say, since all my kids have four legs and fur. :shrug:
and yes, they are adopted, not chimeras...:rofl: :evilgrin:

[wickerwoman]

30. That child would fight for justice

even where there was no hope of achieving it and might even buck the odds every now and again.

Are we saying that's a bad thing?

It seems to me to be a better approach to raise idealistic kids than cynical ones who give up at the first sign that things aren't going to work out fairly.

I suspect that this was prompted by the titty-twisted threads of the past few days. In that case, I would say as a teacher and a person of responsibility I absolutely would not stand by and do nothing while a kid was being bullied because boys will be boys. Because what does that tell the kid? The powers that be don't give a shit. You'll never get any justice in this world so don't even try. And that's a hell of a lot to lay on a thirteen or fourteen year old.

[neweurope]

32. This child COULD not fight for justice because it would have

absolutely no idea of what injustice feels like. Also "fighting" has to be learned, like walking, like muscles have to be strengthened or the immune system. And you learn by being confronted with problems. A child shielded from everything bad would not be able to survive, much less fight any injustice.

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[wickerwoman]

38. You're talking hypotheticals-

I'm referring to the more realistic scenario- a child does experience pain and trauma but it is immediately dealt with by their parents, teachers, etc. They know how to fight because they've seen their parents do it.

Let's say a kid in a deli is bullied- (pushed, given a titty twister, etc.) by a larger, older kid. Do you think the adults witnessing this should do nothing because it will give the kid the false impression that there is some justice in the world? Or should the adults lead the way and show the kid how to fight back in a socially-acceptable way (mediation)?

What do children learn by being presented with problems that are too difficult to handle? They learn to give up. A child who is repeatedly beaten down (physically, mentally or emotionally) by a seemingly insummountable force doesn't learn how to fight. They learn to lie down and play dead. It's the responsibility of parents, teachers, adults and other would-be role-model to frickin' help kids who are presented with things they don't know how to deal with.

[neweurope]

61. Of course I'm talking hypotheticals, and so was the original poster.

I certainly do think grownups should show the kid to fight back. I do not think, however, that grownups should totally shield a child from ever being bullied altogether. No, of course children should not be presented with problems too difficult to handle! They should however be presented with problems, problems they can solve. They should not be shielded from problems altogether (which was the original question). We certainly agree :)

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Jamastiene]

33. It would take them years of therapy and serious

adjusting the the real world before they could even begin to put their lives back together. I should know. I was overprotected as a child. I still suffered from a bunch of abuse, but the world as my mother showed me worked right and everything was done for the right reasons. I wish they world was as rosy as she thought it was. I'm 35 and only now beginning to pick up the pieces and put my life back together again. Only now, do I understand the world and adapt to it better. I now accept it for what it is and try to figure out how the system works, so I can fight it the right way instead of wasting my time trying for the utopia that, unfortunately, will never be. It has taken me years and years of therapy and adjusting to get to this point too. At least I am over the suicidal urges for the most part now.

[Bunny]

45. Because we all know that no one can possibly become a

normal, well-adjusted adult without accepting numerous titty twisters, swirlies, noogies, bra-strap snapping, skirt lifting, pats on the ass, breast rubbing, rough grabs in the lady regions, and or course, swift kicks in the nutsack. The bigger and stronger will always assert their authority in this manner, might as well get used to it. Deliberate infliction of physical and emotional pain is perfectly normal. What's the matter, can't take a joke? Get over yourself - them's the breaks.

[pitohui]

65. good post, bunny

i agree

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. You'd probably end up with someone who is extremely self-centered,

but low on stress. Basically happy, but not a team player.

[pitohui]

67. nothing is more self-centering than pain and abuse

we've all had to deal w. the damaged ones who can't get over their abuse, unfortunately, pain does not cause me to be more loving and caring, it causes me to put "me" first, when you are in pain, nothing exists but the pain

i am amazed at some of the kids today, who do not have to put up with the bullying, "spankings," being touched on by old creeps, and all that other good happy crap we had to put up with

it's almost a little sad because they are not just better people, they are not just happier people, they are actually more intelligent, i just look at how bright and gifted these sheltered pampered kids are and it blows my mind

i envy them

[LaurenG]

52. The child would be surprised when the

reality of human beings was discovered. He'd/she'd need one heck of a mentor to guide them through the poop.

[Dutch]

53. It would probably not be particularly healthy, but the reality is...

far more damage is done through children being exposed to excessive trauma and injustice. Making no attempt to protect children from trauma and injustice would do far, far more harm than good.

Bullies who are taught that it's OK to torment others will also end up as very fucked up and unpleasant individuals.

Everyone at some point will have to deal with trauma and injustice, but no-one should ever have to accept victimisation, harassment or physical abuse.

[hyphenate]

54. A child who is denied the honesty of the truth

will be overwhelmed upon separation from his safe place. What do his parents think? That they can protect him 24/7 for the rest of his life?

There are some things which are mostly wrong to subject small children from--that's true. We perhaps should not let a 5 year old see Grandma's body in a casket, or the euthanizing of a family pet. At least not at 5. A child of that age will likely have nightmares for a very long time; however, by the time a child is slightly more mature and better understands, it's time for them to know the cold hard facts about life, death, violence and other non-fun stuff like those.

I recall from my own childhood I used to have nightmares about the monster in the cellar. I don't recall how they started, but it was a relief when they went away. My parents never broached the subject, though, and it was the one time when some sort of discussion would have been nice to have. And I think that is the crucial part of raising a child--there is a time and a place for everything, and it is senseless to avoid certain topics when the child raises questions, because lying to them will only make their anger greater when they do find out the truth.

Thos parents who try to keep all these topics from their children's lives are doing a great disservice to them. They might think for some reason that sheltering the children gives them a "longer childhood" but it doesn't. Children pretty much are smarter than many adults give them credit for and can sense things which are kept from them.

So it's not fair to the child to be pacified when they start asking the important questions. The truth will be more important and will carry a lot more weight for the future: if a child eventually finds out that he has been lied to, he is less likely to confide in his parents when he's older and needs some answers to life's questions. Fearing the dishonesty that his parents displayed to him when he was a younger child makes him more likely to confide in his friends, and no adults would be allowed into that world. Parents complain that their children don't talk with them about things, and they wonder why. It's as obvious as the noses on their faces, if they only used 1% of the common sense they're supposed to possess.

I know someone who was homeschooling (a REAL fundie) because she didn't want her daughter to learn how to "put a condom on a banana." I would like to see the statistics on those children, who, when finally of an age to engage in sexual activity, get venereal disease or worse because their parents were squeamish or pompous on the issue of sex. I think the percentage would be way higher for that group than for the group whose parents were able to discuss adult themes with the children and help them comprehend the risks involved with such activity.

It's rather frightening, I think, to see so many parents be of such a mind that they think keeping life's realities from their children is the "right thing" to do. Not only do the children suffer, but the parents are showing their own ignorance by such deeds. You have to wonder how many of them were raised as well, and how many of them were also shielded from the truth and the grit of life. My money would be on a streetwise child over an overprotected one any day.

[napi21]

57. MANY years ago, I was a kid like that!

I was an only child, was never allowed to play with the kids next door because THEY played in the dirt and I might catch something from them, was sent to a Catholic school, and FOR SURE there was NEVER any talk about sex or anything "weird" in OUR house!

I can't say that I was "messed up" when I completed school, but it took me until I was in my mid 20's to actually "grow up"! I got married at age 21, and when I heard a dirty joke at work, I'd laugh along with everyone else, then ask my husband to explain the joke when I got home that night. I had to learn almost everything about the "real world" by sudden immersion when I got my first full time job. Thank God I was a quick learner, and luckily I didn't make any serious mistakes along the way.

I had 2 sons. I promised myself long before they were born, that I would raise THEM totally different than I had been raised. They are both grown men now, and it sure looks like my tactics worked better for them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. She'd grow up to be a first lady married to an idiot.

[sendero]

59. that child would be messed up..

.... but not near as messed up as a bully left unchallenged and unpunished.

[stray cat]

60. Kind of like W?

[riona]

62. qualified to head fema

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. I taught some of those pampered college students

They're horrible, because they expect people to keep smoothing the way for them and rescuing them from all their problems. They're also shallow, because they've never had to think about the hard questions.

[pitohui]

64. most sheltered children do MUCH better than children who are not sheltered

there is simply no comparison

the time to find out that life is unfair is not when you're a helpless 4 yr old when it eats into your mind and you have no power to do anything abt it

find out in college when some asshole prof gives you an unfair grade

don't find out by being bullied, raped, beaten and abused as a kid

ok, i survived abuse, but too many children DON'T survive, and even if their bodies survive, their kindness, their sexuality, or their spirit doesn't survive

the same way you don't let a 6 year old play touch and tackle football, you shield and protect the child

suffering, trauma and injustice don't ennoble, most people who suffer are not better people for the suffering, they are worse people, when i am in pain then my ability to help others and to think of anything except self has narrowed down to nothing

the instinct to shield your child is the right instinct

[dogday]

66. Have to experience the good with the bad cuz

there will always be someone who won't like you and you need to learn to deal with this...