Who the f*ck do these persons think they are???

[boston bean]

These persons believe that they have control over a womans uterus, her clitoris, her fallopian tubes, her ovaries, her vagina and her eggs.

They think these body parts are dirty and dangerous. Poor young men (and old) are enticed by them and led down a path of destruction.

Women are disgusting creatures, don't ya know.

Women should be able to control men begging, forcing, pleading for sex. And when they can't they are sinful creatures. No not the men, only the women. Why is it always the woman's fault or responsibility for abstinence.

Why do they want a woman's only choice to be that of abstinence, rather than birth control and termination of a pregnancy. It is easy. They hate women, these persons, they really do.

I can guranteefuckintee that if men got pregnant there would be an abortion clinic on every corner in Main Street, America.

[LisaLynne]

1. It is about misogyny, you are right.

It's what happens when one group has dominance in the culture. Those who are not like them are reviled.

[Solly Mack]

2. Doctors would make house calls to perform abortions

if men could get pregnant and they'd be government funded.

And all throughout America, abortion clinics would run neck and neck with the number of churches on every corner.

[boston bean]

5. LOL , I believe you are correct!! There would probably be

special programs at all colleges and universities and allied health programs dedicated to abortion for men.

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. An abortion clinic next to every Jiffy Lube.

[Deep13]

3. Pretty much.

This has nothing to do with protecting the so-called unborn. It has everything to do with keeping women in "their place." Social conservatives believe in the strong father figure social model where the family is subservient to the father and the country to the government. Any sort of self-esteem by women upsets that model. I think they resent that women alone have the power of creation and want to control it. These people are not just men either. They are plenty of women collaborators who have bought into that mentality.

[boston bean]

4. I will agree, it is women too. But the persons in control of the laws

are mostly men. I believe many of these women to be victims of men with this type of mindset.

But you are correct, there are many women and it really isn't fair to say it is just men.

[acmejack]

7. It is a societal thing.

Been beat into people for generations as in "That's just the way it is sweetie". But it is Bullshit, our Sisters deserve complete equality in every way end of statement.

[Laelth]

33. I agree.

I want the power to create children, to know with certainty that my children are mine, and to always have the bond with those children that comes from giving birth to them and suckling them. I want to be able to walk into a bar and get laid, pretty much whenever I want to. :sarcasm:

I want equality, darn it!

But I can never have it. As a man, I know I can never be equal. And don't pretend that woman power isn't real power. It is real. One could argue it's the greatest power on earth. No wonder men envy and resent it so much.

Don't get me wrong. I support a woman's right to choose. If you're not free to do what you want to your own body, then you are not free at all.

However, it is foolish to dismiss the right-wing's reaction to the immense power that women have gained over the last century. Modern-day neo-Nazism is little more than a reaction to this dramatic and far-reaching social change, in my opinion. Rather than bitching about this reaction and dismissing it, it would be better to recognize it, hear it, affirm it, and then channel its energy into something more productive.

Our failure to hear and see the crisis of masculinity in our time has given us the modern Republican party and its control over our government and our lives.

(flame-retardant gear on) ;)

-Laelth

[zanne]

6. Yes, there are plenty of women...

But MOST women support choice. There aren't equal numbers of men and women who are anti-choice. Sometimes, I think people say "some women are against abortion, too", to blur the lines. It's a right-wing tactic, like saying a bill is "bi-partisan" when a minority of Democrats and a majority of Republicans votes for it.

[TahitiNut]

19. Wow. Just ... "wow".

Anything to frame this as a gender war, huh? If someone points out that the proportions of women and men on either side of the choice/abortion debate are closer than the margin between pro- and anti-choice people irrespective of gender then they're employing a "right-wing tactic"? When there are approximately 6-7 million more female voters than male, just how large a marginal difference does there have to be to support the notion this is a gender war?

Why don't we ask Ann Coulter, Katharine Harris, Midge Decter, Michelle Fox, Condi Rice, Elizabeth Farah, Laura Schlessinger, Genevieve Wood, Dr. Pamela Smith, Patricia Heaton, Nancy Grace, Anne Northup, Peggy Bohanon, Elizabeth Dole, Hunter Tylo, Holly Coors, Christina Hoff Sommers, Rita Cosby, Kay Bailey-Hutchison, Nicola Case, Dolores O'Riordan, Barb Van Andel-Gaby, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Kellyanne Fitzpatrick, Janet Parshall, Kay Coles James, Gov. Joan Finney, Lynne Cheney, Beverly LaHaye, Sharon Weston, Lindy Boggs, Phyllis Schlafly, and all the Conservative Women of America (and many millions of others) whether this is a gender war?

In 2003, the anti-choice crowd wallowed in orgasmic delight as the results of a poll ("Progress and Perils") commissioned by Faye Wattleton's Center for the Advancement of Women (CAW) were heralded by such 'fair and balanced' media such as the Washington Times. Fifty-one percent of women, it claims, now favor banning abortion completely or restricting it to cases of rape, incest or to save a woman's life. Only 41 percent of women think abortion rights should be "a top priority" of the women's movement--and only 3 percent think it should be the top priority.

Feminist.com reported this as follows ...

WOMEN'S TOP WORRY IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

IN THE STATES
By Luchina Fisher - WeNews correspondent

(WOMENSENEWS)--Domestic violence and sexual assault top the list of women's concerns, coming way ahead of preserving abortion rights, according to a recent poll.

The poll also found growing support for restrictions on abortion rights and decreasing support for affirmative action among white women. At the same time, fewer women are joining organizations concerned with women's issues.

The findings are part of a wide-ranging poll of 3,300 American women by the Center for the Advancement of Women, a New York-based research and advocacy organization led by Faye Wattleton, the former head of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. In a report titled "Progress and Perils: New Agenda for Women" released at the end of June, the center compiled the results of two surveys conducted in 2001 and 2003.

Wattleton called the findings on abortion "alarming." Fewer than half (41 percent) of the women surveyed cited "keeping abortion legal" as a top priority for a women's movement, whereas 92 percent listed "reducing domestic violence and sexual assault," with "equal pay for equal work" coming in a close second (90 percent).

The center first reported a slight drop in support for Roe vs. Wade in an earlier survey in 1999. Other pollsters have found similar results.

"What concerns us," Wattleton says in an interview with Women's eNews, "is that the trend line continues to go downward."

About one-third (30 percent) of the women surveyed said abortion should be "generally available." That was down from 34 percent from a survey conducted in 2001. Another one-third (34 percent), up from 31 percent, said they would restrict abortion to cases of rape, incest or to save a woman's life. And 17 percent of women surveyed said they would ban it completely--a rise from 14 percent in 2001.

Not surprisingly, the views on abortion have garnered the most attention. Social conservatives trumpeted the news on their web sites, highlighting the fact that it came from Wattleton, a long-time supporter of abortion rights. The conservative newspaper The Washington Times headlined its story on the study:

<snip>

No matter how this is read, it cannot be validly concluded that (all or most) women are the 'good guys' and (all or most) men are the 'bad guys' in the abortion debate!

The Nation probably summed it up best ...

For Whom the Poll Tolls
by Katha Pollitt

<snip>

In line with numerous polls that show stagnant or slightly declining support for abortion rights, the numbers got worse between the 2001 and 2003 surveys. Yet other polls from January 2003 showed much more support for abortion rights--an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll found 59 percent agreeing that abortion should be left up to a woman and her doctor, up from 57 percent in 1990. In an ABC/Washington Post poll, 57 percent agreed abortion should be legal in all or most cases; 56 percent said it should be as easy as now to get an abortion, or easier. A Gallup poll had 53 percent saying Roe was a good thing--versus only 30 percent saying it was a bad thing.

<snip>

Still, whatever its flaws, "Progress and Perils" is a much needed summons to the pro-choice and feminist movements. We've concentrated on lobbying and judge-watching and clinic defense (as well as the actual provision of women's reproductive health services, which the anti-choicers don't bother with)--vital, necessary work. But we've let the grassroots education and activism slide. "You have to win the hearts and minds of the people," Wattleton told me. "And that takes place in the public arena." The anti-choicers have been all over that arena for years. "Progress and Perils" shows how effective they've been.

It should be carefully noted that the "much more support for abortion rights" surveyed both men and women! The numbers just DON'T support the specious notion that this is a gender war. If many people in the 'pro-choice and feminist movements' continue to demonize men and portray this as a gender war, they run a serious risk of alienating many of their staunchest allies! Such broad-brush stereotyping is always ignorant and often bigoted.

[boston bean]

20. Well would you agree that men have more power in society

than women?

[TahitiNut]

21. Isn't it nice that a majority are pro-choice?

:shrug:

[boston bean]

22. That isn't really making a difference is it though.

I used the word "persons", because I know there are men and women, in the minority who are forcing their will on majority. And this minority is mostly white men with a christo-facist bent. And they happen to have control of this country right now.

[zanne]

23. Watch out, MassDemm

You'll be accused of starting a "gender war"!

[zanne]

25. Wow. Didn't realize I was "demonizing" men.

Excuse me all to hell.

[TahitiNut]

26. Is your name "they"?

I didn't say YOU were, but ... I guess when the foo shits ... :shrug:

[Deep13]

10. What difference does it make who it is?

My point about women right-to-lifers was just an afterthought. Ultimately, it does not matter who is doing the oppressing as it is still oppression. I think the best thing women can do for themselves is to stop thinking of sex as something they give up and that the man gets. Men are encouraged to be aggressive to "get some" while women get "deflowered." Once they stop being ashamed, it will help put things in perspective. On the related note, men can do themselves a big favor by no longer thinking of sex as "scoring" and something they must constantly pursue to be a real man.

[TahitiNut]

28. I detest that paradigm and always have.

The metaphor of "getting some" has always, ever since puberty, been noxious and obscene to me and I've never tolerated the company of anyone who thought in such terms. If it wasn't fully mutual, it was not at all ... and the times of "not at all" have sure been no loss whatsoever.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Bucky]

12. Partly correct. But a nit

This has nothing to do with protecting the so-called unborn. It has everything to do with keeping women in "their place."

That is certainly one aspect of their agenda. But we shouldn't dismiss the genuine feelings of many that abortion is wrong. I met a loyal Democrat, socially liberal, extremely compassionate woman at my precinct caucus two years ago. She was a Dean-turned-Kucinich-turned-Kerry supporter. When we got to debating the resolutions that we were going to send out of the precinct, she argued against us on abortion rights. The lady was in tears as she talked about how she felt like our party's stand on abortion was costing us votes among many people and that more than anything else she was scared that the war would continue because we couldn't be more open on this topic.

Was she a majority? No. Was she typical of "swing" voters? No. She was just one woman. But she didn't have a secret control agenda either. She brought her 10 year old daughter with her because she wanted to show her girl how democracy works--possibly also because she was a single mother. I'm 100% pro-choice myself and had to vote for the resolution. But I have to tell you that we dismiss the sincerity of the anti-choice position at our own peril.

I think they resent that women alone have the power of creation and want to control it.

I've heard this meme before. I just don't buy it. I don't see any psychological or sociological evidence to support this claim. While it may be emotionally validating to say this among people whose rights are under attack by pro-life leaders, the claim rings hollow and makes the arguments in favor of a woman's right to control her own body a harder sell among moderates and libertarians.

[Bridget Burke]

8. One small correction....

I doubt these idiots even KNOW about the clitoris.

[Deep13]

11. Ah yes, nature's Rubix Cube.

footnote to Family Guy.

[Bucky]

13. What IS that thing, exactly?

It sounds like a constellation.

[Triana]

9. driven by patriarchal religion....

....Eve was evil. She tempted Adam - yadda yadda yadda...men are innocent. Women are evil.

Of course, we all know Eve was framed and that the real issue is men's insecurity and lack of control. Controlling women is a way for them to deal with their insecurity and to have some control - not over themselves - but to instead attempt to exert control over other people. They need to be told to control themselves and to get over their insecurity and to stop trying to control other people.

[ddzimm]

14. As a male, I do agree with what has been said so far up.

I suggested this several years ago as a methodology of holding the male counterpart of this issue accountable (during the increase of underage pregnancies). Bill the male (or his parents) for the abortion.

I personally feel that abortion should not be used as birth control, however should be allowed in cases of incest, rape, date rape, and medical danger to the mother, severe birth defects.

However, I believe more parents (fathers) need to impress upon their male children that they are “accountable” for their actions, that birth control, regardless of what she says or what you want to do, is the male’s responsibility. And, if you engage in sex, causal or otherwise, protected or otherwise, you had better be prepared to bring a new life in the world and be accountable for that life until it turns 18.

[NightOwwl]

32. "Abortion as birth control"...

is a right-wing talking point.

Just like the "Liberal attack on Christmas."

Just because a phrase is used, it doesn't make it true.

[sproutster]

34. Jeeze, how much time did you think about what you just typed:

Womens Rights:
I personally feel that abortion should not be used as birth control, however should be allowed in cases of incest, rape, date rape, and medical danger to the mother, severe birth defects.

Mens Responisibilities:
Bill the male (or his parents) for the abortion.


This is EXACTLY what we (and whoever want's to be a "we") are saying.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

15. I have noticed

that it seems like they think they own everything of everybodys, from their library records to their phone calls.

Abortion is just one aspect of it and if all other aspects hadn't been effectively ignored over the last 20 odd years, then perhaps abortion would not be threatened in such backwater states anyway.

I've never been to Mississippi, but did live in S Dakota for a number of years and I can't believe there could have been more than one clinic throughout the whole state to begin with.

[Cats Against Frist]

17. Right on. It's about hatred and fear of women.

Birth control and abortion shatter womens' roles in the order of traditional patriarchy. If it was about caring for the life of the fetus, or caring for children, those who are against abortion would not be gung-ho for war, be against social welfare -- and, further, there wouldn't be one disabled black child as an orphan, in America. We all know that this is not the case. I, myself, am a libertarian, an agnostic/athiest and something of a postmodernist, so the answer about whether or not abortion is morally acceptable is a moot point, for me. It can never be answered. All I can do is look at the motivations behind those on each side of the issue. It is clear to me that the faux concern for unborn "lives" is nothing more than an adherence to superstitious constructs and a desire to enforce the traditional constructed roles of the anti-modernists.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. If men got pregnant

abortion would be a sacrament.

[Dora]

24. If men could conceive/carry, we'd have male birth control post-haste. n/t

[boston bean]

27. Something is definitely wrong in America. I never knew life

with out the option to choose. I don't even know if I would ever choose one, but by god, I always supported the right of another woman to make her own choices.

I can't believe how far backward we are moving. I hope women don't give up this right.

on edit: I guess I just never had to make the choice, so I don't know what I would do.

[NightOwwl]

29. It's all about subjugation and dominance.

After all, their bible says that women are the root of all evil, so what choice do they have but to strip us of all of our rights? :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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