"Democrats are against abortion!"

[Dawgs]

As many of you know, it is possible to be both pro-choice and anti-abortion. Also, you know that we lose on this issue because the uninformed believe that Democrats are pro-abortion. How do we change that opinion?

Well, if you agree that Bill Clinton was right when he said that abortion should be “Safe, legal, and rare”, then you should also agree that Democrats need to start saying "Democrats are against abortion".

If nothing else, it might change the way people think about the Democrat view of abortion.

I'm not saying that Democrats are against a women's right to have an abortion. I'm saying that Democrats, just as much as Republicans, don't want to see abortions take place. It is not the same as saying abortions should be legal.

This is my opinion, and I'm sure many others could say it better, but if we want to get voters who agree with every other Democratic principle we at least need to consider it.

Flame away!! I'll be watching.

:smoke:

[ronnykmarshall]

1. I think everyone is against abortion.

It's being to make that painful choice legally is what I support.

[manic expression]

40. Everyone, until

it's their spouse, or their kid, or their friend, or that very person, who has to get one.

[ronnykmarshall]

45. That's right.

and they see first hand what than emotional and painful choice it is for a woman.

[Epiphany4z]

2. well ya

legal and rare is ideal. I am sure there better ways to bring down the numbers but republicans don't want to do that ...it wouldn't be a wedge issue if they did.

[Lerkfish]

3. I feel that would be counterproductive.

I understand why you're suggesting it, but as we are seeing, once Alito got in, a huge number of states moved IMMEDIATELY to outlaw the right to choose in very draconian fashion...no exceptions for rape, incest, or health of mother or child.

so, as we see, there are no halfway measures with the anti-abortion crowd. To try to give them a finger to avoid losing a hand wouldn't even work, frankly.

[bryant69]

5. I don't know if that would be the OPs intent though

I totally agree that the hardcore base here is unreachable. On the other hand there is a middle ground, and it's pretty large indeed. SOmething like 71% oppose outlawing abortion in all cases except mothers health.

In all honesty I think most people are somewhere in the middle - they aren't comfortable with abortion, but they don't want it illegal either.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Lerkfish]

7. whether its their intent or not, that would be the result, I think.

I'm more speaking to the relentless and implacable nature of those who wish to rescind choice, that they will pounce on anything that they think offers them a "mandate" to eliminate choice. That's why I think semantics are very important.

[bryant69]

24. Ok but those who are that far gone are going to twist whatever we say

So why base our statements around what them, either way. I mean, yeah we shouldn't craft statements to please them, but we shouldn't craft our statements around their response either. Cause either way they are still in the drivers seat.

Bryant

[Dawgs]

32. Agree, but no one is saying that we should...

...craft our statement around their response. I'm saying that there are different ways to frame an issue, and when people hear "pro-choice" they also hear "pro-abortion".

I'm not saying my idea is the best. I'm saying that it may be time to re-frame the Democratic message on abortion.

[Lerkfish]

36. I agree with reframing, to a degree, but I'm suggesting caution

We need to avoid any framing which appears to lend credence to their side or appears to give them a majority for their extremist wedge position.
I think any reframing that indicates we are anti-abortion is only going to confuse at best, and give the wrong impression of coopting at worst.

[Dawgs]

17. Thank you!!

That's exactly what I was meaning, but I know of at least two people (both Catholic) that think Democrats are pro-abortion and vote against Democrats for that very reason.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Actually, I'm pro-abortion.

But only as an alternative to reproduction among wacko wingnut fundies.

[Solly Mack]

8. Me too

I can be called pro-abortion. I support it fully. I am for it. I'm not against it. I don't care if it's rare or not as long as it's an option. Which doesn't mean I'm not for sex ed and needed programs to boost education and jobs for people - I just don't care if 1 million women abort every single day...I care about the women and that they can safely make that choice.

[Dawgs]

15. I'm curious...

Have you ever had an abortion?

[Plausible]

19. I'm curious

why are you so "curious"?

Have you ever spilled your seed?

[Dawgs]

22. You seem to be implying something...

All I did was ask a question.

Why do you have a problem with me asking a question?

I've never had an abortion, so I'm curious to know if this person, who's pro-abortion, has actually had one. I've got no motive, so get off your high horse and quit with the rude remarks.

[Lerkfish]

37. FWIW, I thought they were making a valid point.

does one have to have had an abortion before one has a position on abortion?

[Dawgs]

46. No they don't, and that's not what I'm saying.

But I find it hard to believe that someone who has actually gone through an abortion would actually be pro-abortion.

[Lerkfish]

52. ?? what you find "hard to believe" and reality might not coincide.

Having known more than one person who had an abortion, I don't think any of them would have foregone the right to choose.

One person was raped at knifepoint in NYC back in the early 70s. She was single, living alone, and did not wish to raise the child of someone who brutally attacked her and left her for dead. Can't say as I blame her.

[Dawgs]

63. Again, that's not what I said.

I never said anyone should give up the right to choose. I am, and always have been, pro-choice.

Can you show me where I said women shouldn't have the right to choose?

[lapislzi]

56. I had an abortion, and I am pro-abortion

What exactly are you having trouble with?

Ending my pregnancy was the right decision. I am not sorry, nor was I emotionally scarred in any way by the experience.

Well?

[Dawgs]

64. I never said you should be emotionally scarred.

That's why I asked the question.

You disagree, that's fine, but I'm still not changing my opinion.

WELL?

[Plausible]

6. that's when Dems will lose my vote forever

btw, how about a law controlling men's swimmers?
Should be illegal to spill your seed.

[rucky]

9. Who said anything about a law?

OP's point is that we all want to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the country.

[bloom]

11. A twenty year (mandatory) sentence

medium hard labor - the men can start their life from scratch when it's over - sounds about right. :evilgrin:

[bowens43]

10. Most Americans are pro-choice.

We are on the 'popular' side of this issue already.

To come out as 'against abortion' is silly.

[seabeyond]

12. pro life.... we are ANTI LIFE... forget pro abortion... we are fuckin

against life. that came up last night. talking to a repug campaign. after three weeks of this dem supporting htis repug woman, and all i stood up to, and told them..... and they would lecture me the dem amongst repugs that i must be bipartisan as they continue to say a dem cannot run in this area. huge ass what the fuck.... are you just stupid

last night i committed to four hours polling for election today. i asked campaign person, carlisles talking point. she said the issue is abortions. that carlisle is pro life. i went to mad so fast...... so are you saying i am anti life. as yawl have no problem killing innocent babies in iraq....????? and i am anti life????? so so offensive i tell her

we are anti life

i am sure i will get a call to find out why i didnt show, and if i dont get a call, i will make a call. i could not sell out, i could not betray me, i could NOT........ say pro life for anything in the world

i asked this person,..... ok abortion, what other talking points? property tax? education? health care

no jsut abortion issue

my second explosion..... this is IT. this is ALL the repug party is???? nothing else???? i walk out literally shaking my head

[seabeyond]

13. btw... i am anti abortion. i am pro choice. simple n/t

[katinmn]

44. Even simpler: I am pro-choice. They are anti-choice.

[katinmn]

14. Have you heard of Democrats for Life?

http://www.democratsforlife.org/
Support life from the womb to the grave. Wants the party to welcome both pro-choice and anti-choice members.

As long as they don't support bans on abortion I am fine with what they are standing for.

[Dawgs]

18. I have, but I'm pro-choice.

This is not what I meant in my original post.

[mopinko]

16. sure, sell your mother out for votes.

yeah, that's what we need as a party.

[Dawgs]

20. Huh?

Care to explain, or did you just read the topic in my post?

[mopinko]

23. when you say abortion is bad

what does it say about the women who have had them?

[Plausible]

21. Prevention is a good position

the fundies don't seem to spend a speck of thought on prevention........well preventing sex, I guess....but preventing rape and incest, I havent seen them promote that.........and responsibility for both partners having sex.

But, bottom line, the choice should always be with the woman.

[katinmn]

43. If the fundies and anti-choice crowd have their way there will be:

No education on how to avoid pregnancy (already banned in some schools)
No birth control available to women of any age (already practiced by some pharmacists and chains)
No abortions anywhere for any reason in the U.S. (they are banking on this)
Reductions in financial assistance for young, poor, mentally ill, victims of incest and rape, or people in bad relationships who must care for children they didn't want to have. (already happened)

How fucked up is that? :argh:

[mattclearing]

25. You mean the DEMOCRAT-IC view of abortion? n/t

[Kansas Wyatt]

26. How about a study on the rate of abortions in the country

That compares the abortion rate when Republicans runs the government to when the Democrats run the government?

Let the voters really know which party attacks the cause of the problem.

MSM - Deafening silence, equals proof of Corporate Republican MSM.

[Norquist Nemesis]

27. Democrats are for INDIVIDUAL control vs. GOVERNMENT control

When I run into someone who is emotionally blinded about this and thinks the answer is to put it into the government's hands: THINK CHINA!

Occasionally, I get a 'huh?' look. Usually, you can see the light bulb go off though. For the 'huh' people, in their moment of pause, I'll ask them to look ahead 50, 75, 100 years. Is possible that the government could change it's mind with different people in power? Then the light goes off. ;)

28. I agree

we somehow became the abortion party, instead of the "caring for children" party or whatever. I think abortion should be a right, but care and concern for children and people should be the loudest message.

[DanCa]

29. Were Pro Self Deffense

If A terrorist were to (God forbid) rape a female solider over seas than I think that she shouldn't be forced to carry the child to term.

Also imagine this scenario. Imagine a pregnant mother of three who has a husband overseas and is killed in (god forbid) iraq. She than find out from her doctor that the pregnancy will result in her being crippled of paralyzed if she carries the baby to term. How will she be able to feed her family?

This is what happens when you have a political party practicing medicine without a license and playing god. The can't through the long term consequences of banning abortion.

[w13rd0]

30. No

If issues fall upon a spectrum, the more we chase them to the right along the line, the further to the right they move. They now get away with saying shit that would have been considered completely outrageous ten years ago. And they are pushing farther. They'll continue their little march toward fascism until it's legal to murder homosexuals, minorities and liberals and until women are relegated to the position they think women were "created for", namely to be forced birthing chambers.

I reject the notion that we should be chasing them along that line. We need to be pointing out how their language and goals have evolved, and where they are taking them. Christian dominionism is a scary, draconian bunch of oppressive, fascist thuggery, and it needs to be denounced firmly and without reservation.

[PBass]

31. One step would be to stop using the phrase Pro-Life

and start calling it what it really is: Anti-Choice.

[Left Is Write]

51. I agree with this.

Their position isn't "pro-life". It's anti-choice. Period.

[baby_mouse]

33. How about Democrats are FOR consenting sex between INFORMED adults?

That might cut out a few of the messy problems. Condoms, I think are preferable to an abortion, but I don't see have you can say you're against something but not against someone's right to do it without looking a bit wibbly. It's not an illogical position but illogical people might think it is.

If you're saying abortion is *necessary* but "prevention is better than cure" I kind of agree but this assumes the existence of a bunch of folk too lazy to buy condoms or invest in morning after pills with an *attitude* of using abortion as a sort of post-coital prophylactic. Maybe they exist, I'n not well-educated on the matter. I'm sure the Right THINK they exist, maybe their opinions are based on experience. :shrug:

Also, more might be made of the male taking responsibility for family planning, the onus always seems to be on women.

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. You can point out the legislator who introduced the bill in SD

to outlaw abortion is a Democrat.

[Savannah Progressive]

35. There is a claim to fame for us all

We can out fundie the Repugniks, wow, what fun that will be. Gee I wonder which party will put forward a Nationaly required moment of prayer for schools. If we continue this way, I bet it will be the Dems.

We aren't beating the Repugniks, we are trying to out Fundie them folks. We are helping them win, and then campaigning as even more conservative than the Repugniks.

Hell of a change from Eisenhowers era of the Liberal Republicans, to todays era of the far right wing Democrats.

[derby378]

38. There's a difference between "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice"

I find myself agreeing more with the likes of Clinton, Dean, and Gore on this one. You can, as a Democrat, believe that there are too many abortions in America and insist that women should not consider abortion as an "easy way out" if they broke up with their boyfriend, lost their job, etc.

But at the same time, I cannot know everything that is going through the mind of a woman who is pregnant. It's still her body and her decision whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. And that is an awesome responsibility, indeed.

Thus, I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. I'm PRO CHOICE.

NO ONE has the RIGHT to tell any woman what she can and cannot do with HER own body.

[Lerkfish]

53. AMEN!

[Hidden Stillness]

41. We Aren't Against Your Rights, We Just Don't Want You to be Able to Do It

How about this lovely slogan: "Democrats are Against Women's Rights!" No, I am not against abortion; it is needed for many reasons, among them life-threatening medical emergencies that suddenly arise during a pregnancy, which then has to be aborted, and of course, rape. Who but a sadist would force the violated, traumatized victim to bear the child of herself and the attacker? Will the attacker have visitation? I want there to be exactly as many abortions as women need there to be, and not one fewer. I am no more against abortion than I am against heart surgery, needed because the person smoked, and would not exercise. Why don't you want to ban heart surgery for those people who brought on their own medical conditions? Are you for sloth?

For every male who wants abortions to be "rare" (as in South Dakota, where they take away women's rights any old time they want to, because nothing we have is secure, unlike what citizens have), may I suggest an operation to gouge out your abdomen, implant the pregnancy, and you yourself can carry it to term, since you care so deeply about "life." Then, when you refuse for the "sacred, holy" reason that it interferes with your fucking, or some such, I suggest you just shut the fuck up.

[Dawgs]

47. Uh, that's not what rare means.

Jesus!!

[Hidden Stillness]

49. Rare Does Not Mean Rare--OK

"Uh," ("Uh"?), it is what "rare" means, when "many" are needed and sought, and are unavailable. If you cannot answer, don't come back with an insult.

[Dawgs]

61. Can't answer what?

Did you ask a question I care about?

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Rare means Jesus? n/t

[Lerkfish]

57. it would be very rare for Jesus to have an abortion.

:)

[Jax]

50. I want unwanted pregnancy rare

and abortion safe and legal.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Yeah, right at the same time that we keep telling people

"Democrats LOVE JESUS and believe that this is a CHRISTIAN NATION!"

Oh, sure, you know, we support the separation of church and state.(shhh!) But this 'perception' that we are 'irreligious' is 'hurting us'.

I mean, it must be, right? FOX NEWS keeps saying it is, and all THOSE guys seem pretty mad about it..

See what you're doing? You're buying into the fucking blather, pal. I'm going to say it clearly, and simply, so no one misses the important points:

THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ARE PRO CHOICE.

What we need to do is start STANDING UP for choice, not run away from it.

[sandnsea]

48. I'm not against abortion

I don't care any more about a blastocyst than I do about the eggs that pass from my body every month, or the sperm. Clinton's safe, legal and rare was stupid. It gave credence to the notion that there was something sacred about cells. There's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to do what nature does all the time.

[readmoreoften]

67. Ditto what sandnsea said!

I eat cows and I consider them to be fully developed beings. Why would I feel terrible about someone expelling a fertilized egg?

[FreedomAngel82]

55. I remember a while back Dean was

rechanging the debate about privacy vs anti-privacy. I think in the end that is what the debate is about.

[lapislzi]

58. How can you be "against" a medical procedure?

Anyone out there "against" rhinoplasty?

[Strawman]

59. Not for or against things that are none of my goddamn business

I just think it's none of anyone's goddamn business. It's the pregnant woman's business, period.

[Book Lover]

60. But I am not against abortion

It is the right thing to do on occasion. Why should I dissemble or lie?

[lwesty]

62. The way I see it,

God gave us freedom of choice as a way for our souls to learn and grow through love and compassion. Who has the right to veto God? As our human race grows and evolves, our spirit beings are faced with more challenging situations and this is one of them. For those that disagree with abortion I hope they are never forced to have one. For those that believe that abortion is their best option I hope they are never forced NOT to have one!

[REP]

65. I'm Pro-Choice, Pro-Abortion and Pro-Birth Control

WOMEN matter to me. WOMEN. Not fetuses. WOMEN and their families.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Agree 100% With That Logic

No one should inhibit the women's right to choose first and foremost. But having that said, it is definitely logical to want to curb abortion to whatever extent possible through education, contraception, safe practices, abstinence etc... The right for a woman to choose and have her privacy is mandatory, but that is after conception has taken place. Encouraging ways as much as possible to avoid that undesired outcome to begin with is most definitely a far better solution.

I'm with ya.

:thumbsup: