Should only women vote on the abortion issue? And if so, then

[King Coal]

shouldn't only fertile women be allowed to vote on it?

The best solution to me would be to only allow women to vote on abortion. Partly because I think that is fair, and partly because I would like to shirk my responsibility on deciding the issue. What sayest thou? Thouest? Thous? Thouests?

[valerief]

1. I think only rich, white men should decide on this issue

Why should it be different from anything else?

[gollygee]

7. It's worked pretty well so far

[valerief]

22. Good pic. It reminded me that I forgot one thing…

Rich, white, *middle-aged* men.

[formerrepuke]

2. I've thought that, too. Being born without a uterus prohibits me from

having any input (no pun intended) on this issue. It's a women's health and women's rights issue.. interesting how many (male) politicians feel the need to weigh in- and establish laws about women's fertility. It's all about control, in my opinion.. not so much the 'rights of the unborn.'

[Kber]

23. As a woman, I disagree

One man I know wouldn't sleep with a woman who, upon discussion, told him that she'd have an abortion if she accidentally got pregnant with his child (they were in college at that time).

On the other hand, even though he felt strongly enough to keep his pants zipped, he did vote pro-choice.

Men have a choice to make too - it's just a bit earlier in the process, so to speak.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I don't think there are any 'votes' involved...these decisions are

being made by state and federal legislatures...where the vast majority is male (and white and rich).

However, I really resent ANY male, who has never faced the possibility of pregnancy, making comments about how every fertilized egg is a 'gift' from god. I would challenge any anti-abortion law simply because it was enacted by men. Until we, women, are fully represented in these decision-making bodies, I just don't think the laws are worthy of obedience!

[King Coal]

5. How do you think SD women would feel about it?

[jaysunb]

14. Uh huh....wonder if they've polled that ?

I bet they have and the results don't match the decision.

[northzax]

27. I bet they do

there are a hell of a lot of fundy wingnuts, male and female, in South Dakota.

[Orangepeel]

24. You know, I don't care. some random woman doesn't have anymore rights

to make my medical decisions than some random man does. Let SD woman each decide for their own damn selves and I'll do the same.

[King Coal]

But, that just ain't gonna do it for Jerry Falwell. He wants the say over

your eggs.

[hiaasenrocks]

4. The "You're a male so you should have no say" argument is b.s.

If pro-choice women really believe that, they shouldn't welcome the support of pro-choice males. That is, if they were consistent about it.

[Beelzebud]

6. Yeah that is getting tiresome.

I see that sentiment expressed a lot.

And while men should not be the ones deciding this alone, neither should women.

This is a human issue.

[TahitiNut]

37. It sure is.

As a pro-choice male, I'm getting the message that my support isn't welcome either.

When I think of the impact of such a message on adolescent, impressionable males who want to be seen as "real men" by women, I cringe. The spectre of being regarded as "less than male" is the stuff of nightmares for many in the post-pubescent set.

[sui generis]

42. yes and humans always know what's best for everyone

It's clearly a human choice to execute gays in Iran too - and I'm guessing not a lot of gays voted to support that.

The implication is that men who have no contribution to the physical process of pregnancy other than a little grunt and squirt, to put it crudely, have the right to tell women what they will be doing with that squirt for the next nine months and eighteen years, with no other particularly grave personal obligation themselves other than possibly some financial support if it doesn't cause them a financial hardship.

You're right it is a human issue - but it only really impacts one type of human. If we really care as progressives we should recognize it is a woman's choice and do everything in our power to make it desirable to carry that child to birth rather than terminate the pregnancy, instead of just throwing down yet another shortsighted draconian law.

Maybe we should regulate pregnancy, not abortion. Now that's something all of us could vote on.

[hiaasenrocks]

46. It impacts more than "one type of human."

The martyr complex doesn't go very far in this debate.

[sui generis]

47. that was snide

let's dance.

Assertions without any explanation go further on other boards. Nobody played martyr. So I'd also add that astute observation will at least get you a friendlier answer than just making shit up and throwing it out there.

[sui generis]

48. and another thing

you didn't address a single point in my reply - just too busy stumbling over yourself to accuse me of being a martyr? A martyr? What the fuck?

[King Coal]

9. What, then, if pro-choice males supported the rule that only women vote?

And were consistent about it.

[Beelzebud]

18. So a man's position on this should just be irrelevant?

[hiaasenrocks]

28. I live on the beach.

My property taxes have skyrocketed and what really irks me is that certain people were allowed to vote in that tax-hike referendum who have never owned waterfront property.

"No waterfront property, no vote on waterfront property taxes!"

[Beelzebud]

31. So reproductive rights is the same as property tax issues?

WTF? Are you being sarchastic or what?

If this is the message we're getting behind, that men should have NO say in abortian issues, then I say thats bullshit.

[hiaasenrocks]

34. The principle is the same.

What they are arguing is this: If something doesn't have an immediate, personal impact on you, or if you do not possess certain qualities (like a uterus or beach house) then you should have no vote.

I'm using that analogy to illustrate how absurd the "no uterus, no vote" argument is.

It's nothing more than an attempt to silence opposition. It's completely illogical, and I'm pretty sure even those who spout it don't really believe it. Which is why you will never see them declining support from someone who supports their cause but doesn't have a uterus. That's the hypocrisy of it.

So I don't give it any weight. Everyone is entitled to speak their mind, vote their conscience, etc.

[Beelzebud]

35. Oh! Thank goodness, I thought you were being for real with me for a sec.

/me puts on dunce cap. :D

[hiaasenrocks]

36. LOL. Just to be clear: I believe everyone should be allowed to vote

on the tax issue, even if they don't have a beach house. :)

Just as everyone should be allowed to speak their mind freely and vote their conscience on abortion, even if they don't have a uterus.

To the silencers, I would say: Your attempt to silence others simply shows that your argument is functionally weak and you can't support it, hence the need to silence opposition.

[sui generis]

49. "silencers"?

clearly you have rhetoric confused with reality, especially here on DU. Nobody is saying men shouldn't be allowed to vote on this issue in our political system, but in a rhetorical view men have less input to the question of abortion itself than to the question of personal choice. That's the difference - not "silencing" or "martyrs" or whatever other misinterpretation of the subject.

[Mushroom]

44. dumb thread

I'm interested in your take on the Dubai ports deal and security issues.

[sui generis]

45. then you're in the wrong thread

there's a thread for that you know.

[hiaasenrocks]

19. They shouldn't have a say at all.

That's what we're supposed to believe, of course. And it's nonsense.

The argument goes something like: "If you don't have a uterus, then you shouldn't have an opinion" and this is only applied to anti-abortion males. It's illogical, inconsistent, and a cheap attempt to silence opposition. I don't like it any more than I like the "If you don't support Bush you don't support the troops" bullshit arguments. These are nothing but silencers.

[Burning Water]

8. No.

Limiting the franchise on public issues is wrong. Regardless of the cause. That's like saying only Republicans should vote on "national security", of only Democrats should vote on "Social Security". We ALL have to live with the results of public policy decisions.

[King Coal]

17. Bad analogy. The difference between male and female cannot

be equated with the difference between republican and democrat.

[Burning Water]

29. Perhaps, the

analogy could have been more precise. But the point is still valid. All people are entitled to vote on, or for representatives that agree with, their positions on the issues. If only property owners could vote on property taxes, where would we get our funding for public schools for example.

[sui generis]

10. it's not really a crackpot idea, and I agree

by the way - not about the fertile part, but about the woman part.

I also believe that only gays should vote on whether we should "be allowed" to be legally married, since it only impacts us.

Oh what a world, what a world . . .

[Radio_Guy]

11. I don't know

I would hate to be left out of the voting. Even though I am uterusless, I feel it is the woman's right to do what she pleases with her body. So to leave me out of the voting would be one less vote for what is right and ethical, keeping abortion safe and legal. Should only those with school-age children vote on a tax to help schools? Should only those who own property vote on how money from a property tax should be allocated? I don't think so.

[Wetzelbill]

12. I would say no, because then it

gives men an excuse to be ignorant on the issue altogether. Overall, it is a human rights issue. Human rights are all interrelated, if society as a whole, men included, do not understand the fundamental aspects of women's rights, a part of which is the abortion issue, then they lose perspective on other issues that matter. Such as minority, gay and lesbian, and in general the value of human life rights. The idea that a woman should decide her own health care and what happens to her own body is only part of the issue. The issue that applies to the rest of society is that over one million women worldwide die every year due to nonmedical abortions. That's a human rights issue the same way that the genocide in Darfur is a human rights issue. For us to allow that to happen to women and shirk the responsibilty we have to rectify that issue is unconscionable. Men and Women alike should advocate medical abortions as a safe, legal and rare solution to the prevention of the deaths of women from back alley abortions. It is not a moral decision to be against abortion, when women are dying. It's expedient because "pro-life" (that is an obsolete term) politicians are simply demogoguing an issue while ignoring, if not tacitly encouraging, women to be subject to coathangers and bicycle spokes. It's ugly. So by that same token, it isn't responsible for men to disengage themselves from an issue that has so much human right's value. It's important that we understand the problem and support women in this fight, because it's part of a whole interrelated process.

[Orangepeel]

13. why is anybody voting? that's the question

if anybody, man or woman, wants to stand on the streetcorner and rant about abortion, let 'em. Whatever floats their boats. But why is anybody voting on what happens inside another person's body?

[Burning Water]

30. The Supreme Court giveth,

and the Supreme Court taketh away. Blessed be the Name of the Supreme court.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Kinda like the slaves voting on the legality of slavery.

I kinda think if such a vote were held in, say, 1859, and the outcome abided by, there wouldn't have been a civil war.

And, if a similar vote were held today, and only women were allowed to vote on laws affecting reproduction, Roe v Wade would be irrelevant because abortion rights would be like the Emancipation Proclamation.."forever free".

[Norquist Nemesis]

16. Did you forget the sarcasm?

Seriously, though... there are plenty of men on the pro-choice side. And as to only fertile women...well, I'm no longer 'fertile' but I'd sure like to support my daughter and any potential female grandchildren in a fight to keep government control out of health and reproductive decisions.

[King Coal]

21. Sorry, No egg, no vote.

I forgot that thing again.

[sui generis]

20. what makes you think women should be allowed to vote at all!

damn librools all over the place here. What the heck is this DU place anyway? Harrumph.

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

25. hahaha

yeah, women voting just means that we have neglected family values. I mean, psh, c'mon!

They should be making dinner and being glorified sex slaves instead. Important stuff like that. :) Hail Santorum! :)

[Kber]

26. What about fathers

with daughters? When we go into the voting booth, it's for our children as much (or more than) for ourselves.

[sui generis]

38. I think it's rhetorical, but

I wonder how women alone split up on this issue (fertile and non-fertile together). Seriously.

Once your daughter is pregnant, she is a woman and it is her body. You won't have to bear that child, and technically you don't have any responsibility for caring for that grandchild. If you were a Jehovah's Witness and your daughter needed a blood transfusion to live, in fact wanted the blood transfusion, should your rights as parents override her right to live?

At some indefinable point not related to age, in matters of health the parent's "rights" become less important than her conscious rights over her own body.

I think women SHOULD vote on this exclusively, all women. I haven't heard a compelling reason why this would be wrong, or why men should have a say at all.

[northzax]

32. stupid, stupid idea

if it came to a vote, and I wasn't allowed to vote, then don't you dare use my tax dollars to fund even one abortion. or my HMO dollars to provide abortions. If men can't vote, then they can't be forced to pay for it.

I mean, why should I support breast cancer research? I don't have breasts. (yes, I know men can get a form of it, but it's not the same disease, doesn't have the same treatments or the like) Every dime being spent on breast cancer research is a dime not being spent on prostate cancer research (don't worry, i won't make women pay for that either, it's only fair)

And individual medical decision is between a patient and his/her doctor. But policy decisions are made by the polity as a whole.

[sui generis]

39. well then using your logic

don't you dare use my tax dollars to pay for one bigoted asshole to provide healthcare to another babtist. Why don't we take a vote on what babtists should be allowed to do or not to do?

Why on earth do men think they have any say whatsoever over what a woman does with her body and her life for the 18 years following her pregnancy? I can't think of anything that impacts us less.

Your tax dollars have funded an illegal war, the murder of over 100,000 civilians; adults and living children, not little clumps of cells indistinguishable from an extra small hangnail.

That's an important fight, not this.

[northzax]

41. hey, I'm just saying

if I am excluded by statute from the decision making process, don't ask me to fund it. In any particular case, as I stated, the decision belongs to the patient and her doctor. But as a matter of policy, it is for the entire polity to decide.

[sui generis]

43. well northzax

I live on the wrong side of that polity. You (collectively) have voted for me to not be married to the person I love if he happens to be the same sex, or to have the right to dispose of my property to him under rights of kinship unless I am married. You have voted in most states to even keep me from legal contracts which might confer some benefit of marriage, as well as to allow hospitals to keep me from telling them to allow my unmarried partner as a visitor or to make or execute medical decisions on my behalf, even though I pay the bills, and nobody else, and even though I have explicitly stated my wishes in writing and filed them of record.

I'm not excluded by statute from voting, but the mob polity has decided that I have fewer rights for the same tax dollars I use to fund the very process that takes and keeps my human rights. My tax burden isn't any less. Your social burden for my existence isn't any more.

I don't trust the polity any more - you mostly don't have anyone's best interests in mind but your own.

Again, I use "you" in the collective. So I empathize with women wanting to decide for themselves about themselves, in the absence of men who really have no social interest in the outcome.

[northzax]

33. self delete dupe nothing to see here

I said there was nothing to see here, why are you still reading? hmm?

[Bridget Burke]

40. When has abortion ever come to a vote in a General Election?

It's been booted around in various legislative bodies--disproportionately populated by rich white men. Those august bodies produce lots of laws that affect the under-represented.

I vote for school board members even though I'm childless. I support civil rights for those who don't look like me. I'm no longer fertile but am absolutely committed to choice.

We need politicians who truly represent us--not just corporations & pressure groups. Or--maybe we need better pressure groups for OUR side! (From a contributor to the ACLU, Sierra Club & Planned Parenthood.)

[johnnie]

50. There are many woman who are anti-choice

I've said it before, this issue is more than a gender issue.

[Wetzelbill]

51. Kick

this is too interesting of a topic to let die off. :kick: