Network World: Macs are cheaper than PCs by half

[onehandle]

Columnist Winn Schwartau runs the numbers on what it truly costs to run a PC and a Mac in a business, and finds that a PC is nearly twice as expensive as a Mac when one takes support costs into account. Antivirus protection, firewalls, and IT labor to keep a PC secure and operational add up to a bill of $1,300 to $4,000 a year.

I've known this for years. IT departments hate Macs because they are easier to network and upkeep. They depend on troublesome PCs to insure their jobs.

http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html?page=1

[stepnw1f]

1. Not To Mention How Crappy PC parts Are

Unless you know how to build your own.

[onehandle]

8. The defenders of PCs in this thread will be techheads...

Who like a challenge. Nothing wrong with that.

However everyday people don't know how to maintain their PC.

Macs take good care of themselves. This is what makes them cheaper for most people. Not having to pay for so much support.

[cushla_machree]

107. I like my PC

It probably has to do with it is the machine i grew up on, getting used to a mac is like trying to write with my left hand.

I am a gamer.

and i prolly like how i always have to fix it, clear the spam and adware, makes me feel in control.

[ender]

109. meh... you can get good grade components ...

but, you have to pay the extra money for them. thats why the business lines of major manufacturers are much more expensive than consumer lines.

now, the piece of shit microsoft os, thats the big problem, not the hardware.

[stepnw1f]

112. Good Point..

A friend of mine built his own work station. It cost him as much as it would cost me to buy a new Mac workstation. It pretty much evens out in the end, depending on how much you know about computers. His machine is awesome... but then again, this guy is pretty smart. Not everybody who builds a PC is.

That said, I like OSX much better than Windows for it's smooth interface and its ease of use. Unix is a big plus... a plus I need to take more advantage of.

[msongs]

2. hahaha more BS in the macs are better war

my costs to run my PC in the last 2 years? nothing/nada/zilch. free anti virus, free firewall. not one cent for any kind of repair.
only cost is when I choose to add new stuff.

I am sure macs are very fine machines, having used a few over the years, and their 4.5% market share is a testament :-)

Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
mugs and shirts

[wakeme2008]

5. they are talking about PC in an office environment.

and they are more expensive because of all the things they listed.

[jayfish]

75. They Are More Expensive Because They Are...

actually in offices. I have never witnessed a MAC in an office environment outside of AV production.

Jay

[onehandle]

98. NASA, Scientific companies, Schools and Universities of course.

Apple Small Business site:

http://www.apple.com/business/



Businesses at Professional Site, too.

http://www.apple.com/pro/

[Warpy]

3. Macs are just as exploitable

which is something we'd all have found out had Jobs been smart enough to market his OS independent of his hardware. He'd have buried Microshaft years ago, because the Mac OS is a superior OS. However, any popular system soon becomes very attractive to hackers, and the Mac OS is no exception.

[Beelzebud]

4. Is it just me or do Mac users have penis envy?

:D

All I ever hear from Mac users is how l33t their computers are. They never mention what they actually do with them. As far as I can tell they are great for posting free Macintosh advertisments on forums like this one. :D

[onehandle]

13. I make money with mine.

Now a lurking Freep will report me to the Treasury Department.

;-)

I design cross-platform interactive multimedia.

[Lorien]

30. So do I. I'm a commercial artist, and Macs are the industry standard

My main client, Disney, only uses Macs in the art departments.

[stepnw1f]

18. Penis Envy?

So that's what your PC is... I see.

[Beelzebud]

20. I'm not the one bragging about it! :D

[stepnw1f]

21. Neither am I

You made the leap though...

[Beelzebud]

23. Oh jeez. for the humor impaired. It sounded like a Porsche owner

bragging about how nice his car was.

The penis envy comment comes in because usually when a guy is doing that much bragging, it's to make up for a deficit in his life. Hence the need for a 100,000 dollar sports car.

I'm not trying to actually start a flame war here. My comment was made as a toung-in-cheek jab.

Sorry for making a little joke.

[stepnw1f]

31. I'm not Humour Impaired

I'm just giving you shit. Relaaaax brother....

[Tesha]

82. The work I do on my Mac pays for my Porsche. ;-) (NT)

[Beelzebud]

108. You've got a Porsche but you can't donate to DU?

LOL I don't have the money for a Porsche, but I found the money for that. :D

[Tesha]

110. LIfe's like that.

All my spare money goes to the ACLU and directly to progressive
candidates.

This is just a chat room that spends a lot of time insulting
my favorite causes (and, frequently, me, as you just did).

Tesha

[Beelzebud]

114. Typical Porsche owner. :D

Aww someone has thin skin. Better put another coat of wax on that Porsche.

[Tesha]

118. There you go again.

> Typical Porsche owner. :D
>
> Aww someone has thin skin. Better put another coat of wax on that Porsche.

There you go again, believing that adding another insult will
win your case for you.

Tesha

[emulatorloo]

55. Dumbest thing I ever read on DU

And I have read a lot of dumb things on DU.

[Tesha]

81. Why do we have to describe what we do with them? We just do EVERYTHING!

> They never mention what they actually do with (their Macs).

Why do we have to describe what we do with them? We just do EVERYTHING!
Browse the web, run the Microsoft Office, run Unix, make art, make music,
play music, make videos, play videos...

You know: all the things PC users do when they're not busy dinking around
with their computers.

Tesha

[LifeDuringWartime]

86. making music

both recording audio and sequencing with software instruments. :)

[pimpbot]

100. I nominate this the best post in the thread!

n/t

[stlsaxman]

101. I compose and record music that is used for soundtracks and

even use my "VirtualPC" to run DSP software in sound systems... never had a problem. Been doing this with Apple machines for 10 plus years and never a problem. Did you get that part? Never a problem.

... and my penis is perfect, thank you very much.

[bowens43]

6. Too bad there is no software for Macs........

;-)

[onehandle]

9. Ha ha. That's the argument from ten years ago.

Many still believe that.

[tridim]

14. I know lots of Mac users who'd love to run a Radio Control Airplane Sim

on their Macs. As of today they're SOL. That's just one example.

It's true that Macs run lots of software, but nowhere near the amount that runs on PCs. It's a fact of the market, and a valid argument.

[onehandle]

16. There is ten times as much software for the PC as there is for the Mac.

90% of the PC software is on a 99 cent CD on a rack by the register.

Lots of crap written for the bigger market simply because of easy profit.

There are programs on both platforms that are not available on the other.

Usually for rare uses like...Radio Control Airplane Sims.

[alfredo]

34. One advantage we have is the UNIX core. That opens us up to

thousands of titles not available on the Windows platform.

Hyperjeff has nearly 15 thousand links to applications for the Mac. A good portion is either freeware or shareware. Oh, and when they say they are freeware, they actually are.


Because the market is so small on the Mac, shovelware will not last very long on the shelves.

[alfredo]

26. I know there is one for the helicopter. They have several

flight Sims like X Plane and OSX Sky fighters 1945

If there is one for UNIX, it could probably be ported over to the PPC platform and run under X11.

I don't game much, what gaming I do is on a game console. My Mac is more a tool than a toy.

[MadHound]

11. Ooo you are so funny

Ever watch any CGI? Done on a Mac, with software that is generally unavailable for a Wintel box, for who in their right mind wants to try and do CGI on anything else besides a Mac. In addition, virtually any and all normal software available for MS boxes is also available for Macs, including games.

And if there is some obscure program out there that is Windows only, well gee, you can still run it on your Mac using a Windows emulator. Something that has yet to be done for Windows boxes(and yes, there is lots of Mac only software and games out there, Andromeda software for one).

Sorry, but that dog don't hunt no more:evilgrin:

[tridim]

15. "Obscure" software like 3D Studio Max

By far the most popular and professionally used 3D application on the planet. It doesn't run on the Mac.

What Mac-only 3D software are you talking about BTW?

[onehandle]

24. Link...

Choose "3D Design & Modelling" and click "Find Products".

http://guide.apple.com/uscategories/3d.lasso

[MadHound]

28. Umm, some might dispute that but hey,

That's neither here nor there. I can still run Studio Max on my Mac using an emulator. Mac users can also choose what is a similar, but arguable better program called Cinema 4D. In addition there is the Shake suite of programs for the Mac, all of which have been employed in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, all of which used Macs for all the CGI work.

And I wasn't talking about a Mac only 3D software, I was talking about Mac only software in general. Go check out Ambrosia Games, a Mac only game producer. Shame that you can't play any of them, they're quite good, I especially like the Escape Velocity series.

[tridim]

52. Well Cinema 4D is available for the PC

I've used it, and it's nowhere near the capability and has nowhere near the community and third party support of 3DS Max. The capability part is my opinion, but the community part is a fact.

Shake is nice, but in the end it's just another compositing application. I'd love to have it for my PC, but Apple owns it and shuts out PC users. There are dozens of compositors to choose from on the PC side, not to mention 3D Studio does video post composites natively.

The point is the 3D industry uses both PC's and Macs for their work. Macs have not held the title of CG king since the mid 90's. Same deal with audio and video. Apple used to own those markets, but PC's caught up about 10 years ago.

[onehandle]

58. Many video/film studios are tossing their PCs for Final Cut Pro.

Which is totally worth it. I would say that Apple should make a PC version.

But I won't.

[tridim]

59. FCP is nice

But Sony Vegas is better. Again IMO.

You're not going to win. :P

[stepnw1f]

122. Vegas... What the Hell is That?

Never heard of it.

[northzax]

124. Vegas is good, no doubt

but then Shake has been used by 9 straight Oscar-winners for visual effects.

[stepnw1f]

125. I've Taken a Course in Compositing and Editing

We used Shake... that program rocks. Apple was smart to buy it.

[alfredo]

80. Check out Pangea software.

Their games are pretty good. My wife loves Otto Matic and the Bugdom series. Remember the free version of Nanosaur? That was a fun game. It was the first title out of Pangeasoft.

[MadHound]

85. Thanks for the reminder

I've already got Otto Matic, but I'll have to check out the others.

[alfredo]

91. It's got a good sense of humor, and likeable characters.

[Atman]

12. Yeah, and don't those big fins on cars suck?

And too bad there are no color television shows or I might actually get one of them new-fangled color teevees!

:eyes:

[Atman]

7. I got a big company to buy their first Mac back in 1987

I used to work in the home office of the country's second largest fashion retailer. I saw a Mac running ReadySetGo at a trade show, and requisitioned one when I got back. It took six months to get the requisition approved, during which time they sent me all over New England looking at "alternatives" to a Mac, like $100,000 Xerox CAD machines (hey, the D stands for "design," right?). It was lunacy! Finally, I called Apple and they sent a rep out to set up a head-to-head Mac/PC comparison in our MIS department. Trouble is, I didn't tell the MIS people (I knew they wouldn't go for it if I'd asked). They were bullshit, threw stuff, stormed out of the demo. But a week later I finally got my requisition approved for a Mac SE, and true to form for Apple, they had already come out with a new model in the meantime...the Mac II, the first color desktop, so they bought me that instead! I remember a 19" color monitor back then cost $7000!

Anyway, the only way they said I could have the Mac is if I took responsibility for it myself, no MIS support. And I was not to tell anyone else in the company I had one, lest they'd get more requests for them. They even moved me to a top-floor corner office so no one was likely to walk by and see it!

By the time I left two years later, there were eight of them...everyone in the art department had them. And MIS still wouldn't support them. They didn't have to! I found out during my exit interview that I almost got fired over the little head-to-head demo stunt, though.

;-)

[tridim]

10. A properly set up PC costs $0.00 per year to maintain

If Mr. Schwartau's IT dept can't set up or fix PC's, he should hire a new IT staff who can. If his employees continually screw up their systems, he should hire people who know how to operate a computer.

The Mac/PC cost argument is so 1990.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

66. If he is hiring people to maintain them, the cost isnt $0

Unless its an all volunteer IT department of course.

The question of whether to go with mac or pc is hardly as simple as the bigots on each side claim it is. There is clearly a market and place for each.

But lets not kid ourselves and say that PCs are $0 to maintain. At the very minimum you need a virus scanning subscription and that isnt free.

Btw, Im a PC user and have been one since the day the month that it was invented. Coincidently Im in process of reimaging my primarly laptop since it has become unstable after a year of use (and all the garbage that you accumulate from various good and bad apps)

[MyNameGoesHere]

17. IT departments hate macs

cause the are easier, and we want job security? Your mac came with drugs? I wanna smoke some that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. Damn. Are you kidding me? My next puter WILL BE a Mac.

What is the cost of a GOOD Mac laptop with all the bells and whistles.. Lots of memory, speed, cd burner, etc...?

[onehandle]

22. Here...

Matchup of an Apple (99% blue) vs. a Dull (12% blue)

Final Price:
MacBook Pro: $2,399
Inspiron E1705: $2,341

http://mikemchargue.com/2006/01/price-deathmatch-apple-macbook-pro-vs.html

[EOTE]

92. Poor comparison....

First off, I do respect Apple for being a 99% blue company, but I consider those laptops to be pretty different beasts. First off, Nvidia's 7800 mobile GPU is MUCH faster than ATI's X1600 which is used in the Mac. Also, you're comparing a 17" model to a 15" model, a 17" offers significantly more viewable screen area. If you have any interest in games whatsoever(which I do, and most people looking to purchase a laptop with a high end GPU would), the Dell is the clear winner in this comparison.

[Lorien]

33. My father went Mac two years ago

he can't believe that he waited so long to do so. He LOVES his iMac!

[Tesha]

83. Essentially no one ever goes back. (NT)

[SPKrazy]

102. I Was Mac, I Went To PC (Not Back)

I like PC because it is used where I work, and while Macs have gotten more interchangeable (software wise) with PC's, I don't see much difference.

Although I will say that Macs do a lot more, with less, and while they aren't problem free, they recover from crashes much more easily than a PC does.

And you save money by not worrying so much about viruses and worms with Macs.

Given all of that, I still like PC's better!

[Tesha]

111. Was your Mac running OS/9 or OSX when you left? (NT)

[SPKrazy]

127. We Still Have A Mac Running OS10.2.8

that my wife primarily uses as she loves Macs.

I use it, but I prefer my laptop HP running Windows XP home edition.

[Tesha]

128. Thanks! (NT)

[TahitiNut]

25. The economics aren't that simple.

A business is twenty times more likely to hire a person already familiar with using a PC than a Mac. An individual seeking technical training for a support position is twenty times more likely to find a job supporting PCs than Macs. The training and productivity costs cannot be ignored.

As the twig is bent so grows the tree.

Apple made a strategic error long ago in choosing a closed-architecture. At the outset, there were few if any alternate vendors for Macs, Mac components, and Mac software. In the "old time religion" of business, it's taboo to choose equipment without alternative sources.

My IT/MIS/EDP experience goes back to 1967. I'm a part of that constituency that strongly advocates industry standards, not proprietary standards. I eschew the proliferation of proprietary standards for hardware and software. It's a plague. Apple was a Typhoid Mary without immunity to the disease they carried. I have always regarded computers as communications devices - the sole valid purpose for which is facilitating the exchange of information. When that exchange is encumberd by incompatible inteface standards, the efficacy of the technology is materially impacted. Apple is playing "catch up" and not doing very well.

[onehandle]

29. Your first paragraph proves the article's point.

PCs need much more support, so there are more support positions out there for the PC.

This doesn't help the everyday user or save a company money.

Thank you.

[TahitiNut]

32. Nonsense.

If you think that's what I said, you should probably read more carefully. The market is twenty times more saturated with PCs than Macs.

Clue: Think personnel and recruiting.

[jim3775]

45. "so there are more support positions out there for the PC"

Yes, that is probably because PCs have about 94% of the market share.

[Dora]

42. That's a non-issue these days for most administrative positions

And by that I mean those administrative support positions most likely to use a computer as an organizational tool in the workplace. I've been using a Mac since 1986, and encountered my first DOS-running PC in 1989. In terms of usability, flexibility, and overall functionality, the Mac won hands down.

For years I've been able to put down both Windows and Mac OS down on my resume as operating systems that I'm well-versed in working in. Anybody who can't use both is as limited as a person who can't drive a car with a standard transmission. Anybody who refuses to learn should be taken out and shot. :sarcasm:kinda

[sendero]

116. "Apple made a strategic error long ago in choosing a closed-architecture."

Thank you. That is at the heart of the matter. I'm not about to buy my computer from a propriatary source that charges way too much for what you get, period.

If Apple had had the brains and guts to open their hardware architechure, they would be something other than a 5% footnote to the personal computer business.

[alcibiades_mystery]

117. Great post

n/t

(Dual boot XP and SuSe)...never did use a Mac, so I won't chime in...

[Elwood P Dowd]

27. Al Gore is a big Apple enthusiast

and is a member of their board.

[SPKrazy]

104. Didn't He Invent Apple?

:nuke:

bad attempt at humor

and yes I know Al never said he invented the internet

[CabalPowered]

35. Pffft! I can build a decent biz comp for about $350

Show me a comparable MAC for that price. Upkeep? If we have a box fail, we have a standby ready and loaded. Norton Ghost is a life saver! Total downtime, about 1 hour.

[onehandle]

37. Yeah. All PC users build and maintain their own machine.

Right? Ha ha.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. I'm lucky I know how to turn mine on!

In fact, when we went out to buy our first computer back in '94, my son was 3 years old and in pre-school learning computers! At 3 years old! When we were at the store I asked my husband "How do you turn this thing on?" and my husband says.."I dunno." My 3 year old pipes up..."Right here mommy!" and turned the damn computer on. :blush: I wanted to crawl in a hole! LOL. ANYWAY, you're right. Most people, average Joe-ette like me, knows very little about maintaining a computer. Everything I know about computers (which is VERY LITTLE) I taught myself from hit and miss. Repair one??? NEVER.

[CabalPowered]

61. The article is referring to business environments

Not a typical consumer.

[onehandle]

67. It's also talking about upkeep, not boxes.

You're talking about building and maintaining your own computer.

Few businesses want to invest in brand x boxes. They don't want to have to worry about non-standard equipment.

[CabalPowered]

73. Too many variables in the equation to say what is the best fit

If a biz has a FT tech on hand, then DIYers are better off. If you have a small shop with no in-house tech then you'll be better off going with a known brand.

[porphyrian]

63. Not all, but many. Just like Harley owners.

You won't find one without a toolkit.

[Atman]

50. There are no "decent" Macs, is the problem

Only GOOD ONES. Anyone can cludge together a $350 PC. And when they're done, they have a home-made $350 PC without any warranty or service, and full of cheap-ass bargain basement parts from god-knows-where, with a MTBF rate of two weeks.

[CabalPowered]

60. That's a bunch of hogwash. I've got dozens of P3 machines built in 00'

that have never had any failure and have never had their OSes reloaded. Stick with manufacturers that you know are good and you won't have any problems.

[jayfish]

84. I Haven't Bought A PC Since...

the first one I bought in 1992. I've built my own ever since and have saved tens-of-thousands of dollars in the process. Bargain basement parts huh? Is this an example of a bargain basement part?


250GB Western Digital OEM HDD 96.00 at Newegg

250GB Western Digital Retail Box HDD 159.99 at Best Buy



That's a saving of $64.00 over retail and carries a 3-year mfg warranty.

Jay

[EOTE]

94. Love Newegg...

I just put myself together a pretty slick gaming rig with parts I got from Newegg. Minus the monitor and a few other components I had left over from previous systems that hadn't made their way into my folks' or GF's computer, the total price was a bit over $800. This includes a dual core Athlon 3800+ (heartily overclocked because of it's extensive cooling), a 7800GT GPU (if I need more graphical horsepower in the future, I can always add a 2nd one), a gig of dual channel RAM, new thermaltake case, Gigabyte motherboard with every onboard option I can think of and 400 gigs of storage in ultra-fast RAID 0 configuration. I know there are Macs that you can get for under a grand, but they certainly wouldn't be able to play games like this setup would.

[jayfish]

95. Check Out The Gaming Forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=248

And I doubt a MAC would be able to do anything as quickly as that monster. My current gaming system is an A64 3000+ a gig of dual-channel and 6600GT. Total outlay (minus all those crappy parts I had laying around) was a bit over $600.


Jay

[EOTE]

106. Will do.

I wasn't even aware that DU had a Gaming Forum. Very cool. I wish I had more time for gaming, but my girlfriend, work and home improvement projects are taking the bulk of my time. I've been trying to get my girlfriend into some multiplayer games (RTSs and FPS's), and she's taking to it fairly well so far. She's got all my old components, so when we move in together, hopefully we can have a LAN party every now and then :).

It's been a long time since I've had an up-to-date system, so I'm just discovering some cool games I missed. In terms of FPS's, Far Cry and FEAR have been awesome so far, although I've only played them a couple hours so far. There are two awesome RTS's which just came out, Star Wars: Empire at War and Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle Earth 2. Both games are just incredible and any RTS fan should give them a look.

[alcibiades_mystery]

119. I just started messing around with building PCs last summer

Easy to learn, a few trial and error misses, but I wasn't working on my primary so much as building a "dream machine."

Worked it up, and booted it up, and wow! it sho nuf fucking worked. Never been that technical a guy, so I was pretty proud of myself. Now I'm old hat with hard drives and cables, PCI express, and loading graphic cards and sound cards and power supply and fans, hell: it's alright. I'm messing around in there from time to time, and upgrading my older primary (a fucking Dell - never again!!!) without fear, etc. Pretty fun. I think I spend too much times thinking up the next project!

Love Norton Ghost too. Just did a hard drive upgrade on my older machine and it went smooth as anything w/ Ghost 10.0.

Cheers.

[jim3775]

36. This is an extremely misleading article

The only way macs are cheaper than PC is when it comes to enterprise level securty and that is only true if you take linux out of the equation. Anti-Virus licenses are expensive, for the most part there is no need for licensing AV products on macs.

The "macs are cheaper" argument just simply inst true, you can buy a perfectly fine barebones PC from dell (or wherever) for $450-$600 and install linux on it.

[onehandle]

38. Yeah. All PC users install linux on their machine.

Every general user know what to do with a linux setup.

Right? Ha ha.

[jim3775]

39. Ha ha

I see you enjoy handholding. Ever tried KDE?

Edit: Here is a download link for Kubuntu you will be pleasently suprised. Oh wait, apple computers wont let you dual boot a new intel mac, ha ha.

[Cronus Protagonist]

40. I have three Windows PCs - never spent a dime on maintenance

Not even for utility software. I use AVG Free anti virus, update with Microsoft update regularly and occasionally run them through third party freeware from time to time just to check. Never had a virus. Never had a Trojan. Never lost a minute of productivity and Microsoft updates them for free.

YMMV

[Deja Q]

41. Pardon me while I laugh myself to death.

[stepnw1f]

123. Microsoft Wishes to Thank You

for being such a sucker. Now that's funny... lol!

[Maine-i-acs]

43. Sounds fishy.

I support 50 PCs - thus the IT budget should be $65,000 to $200,000?

Hogwash.

[jayfish]

77. I Admin About As Many...

as well as several servers. Our IT budget is my salary + upgrades. It's laughable.

Jay

[Tesha]

87. The "fully-burdened cost" of one engineer is...

> I support 50 PCs - thus the IT budget should be $65,000 to $200,000?

The "fully-burdened cost" of one engineer at my husband's company is
somewhere north of $125K/year so it sounds like your numbers are in
line (when you actually consider all of your costs to your company).

Tesha

[meegbear]

46. IT departments hate Macs because they are easier to network and upkeep?

That's a new one. I thought because PCs are easier to get parts for and Windows is used more widely in workplaces.

My bad.

[Poiuyt]

47. I once heard an IT guy say, "If you want to get your work done, use

Linux. If you want to be in heaven, use a Macintosh. If you want to keep me in business, use Windows."

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

48. Boy I sure wouldn't describe my tech savvy friends who use all 3 as

"in heaven" with Mac OS.

[trotsky]

49. Is there something about being a Mac user or fanatic...

that makes them have to bash Windows/PCs in order to feel better about themselves?

Both are perfectly fine systems that have plenty of uses. PCs have the upper hand in some areas, Macs in others. Can a Mac user say something nice about their system that doesn't bash Windows?

[emulatorloo]

53. I say nice things about PCs all the time --OTOH Mac Bashers are virulent

read what Mac Bashers say -- it is most often offensive and virulent and totally ridiculous. Crazed Diatribes re "I HATE MACS AND ALL MAC USERS!" Computers are tools -- I like my Windows machine, but prefer my mac.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=364&topic_id=596230&mesg_id=596353

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Yes in 15 years I have had two Macs

My hubby the PC freak has had 4 or 5 PCs. And he is shopping for another new one now.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

54. If you are a hardcore computer gamer, and have gaming as one of the

primary or THE primary reason for owning a PC, and having the widest selection of the latest and greatest computer games available to play (not talking consoles, that's another flamefest LOL), then there really isn't a choice.

I WILL say that the availability of some of my favorite old games like Starcraft on the Mac has improved substantially in recent years, but the simple realities of market share dictate that computer game developers will develop for the PC, and the Mac will be a port or afterthought if at all. Likewise, since the console gaming market is so much larger than the PC gaming market, if a developer has the ability to write for the Playstation/XBOX market at all, they'll do so and the PC version will be a port or afterthought, if there ever IS one.

Of course if one games little or not at all with one's computer, then it's not an issue.

[sandnsea]

56. If Mac were the industry standard

Then Mac would require antivirus and firewalls because that would be the targeted operating system instead of Windows. This is really a tired and stupid argument.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

57. Agreed, the primary reason why most virus/malware is written for Windows

is because that's what the systems have.

[bigmonkey]

64. And I'm tired of this tired "assertion".

It hides the fact that there are actual, structural differences between the OS operating Windows, Mac, Linux, and Unix machines that will affect how easy they are to exploit. Windows machines were deliberately designed to be open in a way that the others weren't. Yes, if market share were different, more people would be trying to write exploits for the other operating systems, but it still would be much easier to write them for Windows. In other words, there is little to no evidence that the exploitability and the market share will be in the same proportion.

Your assertion is unsupported. Where is your evidence?

[sandnsea]

68. Well gee

Since you've obviously debated the issue before, you've obviously seen the evidence before. Sending me on a google chase to post links so that you can post opposing links doesn't seem to be a terribly good use of my time. Certainly there are differences, but nobody can possibly make cost comparisons when there is one reality for Windows and another for the rest of the systems. Further, with the push of Apple in the Classroom, you would think kids who grew up with Macs would have flooded the market by now. Didn't happen. Windows is just easier to work with.

[onehandle]

69. easier to work with?

Even most Windows users wouldn't agree with that.

Macs did not flood the market because they didn't clone.

Macs were the market in the early days of desktop computing.

[sandnsea]

72. I like Windows better

I had a Mac in the 80's, when Windows came on the scene, I never looked back. I think it is a really stupid argument and that it is a weird sort of anti-social status symbol in the minds of most Mac users and nothing more.

[bigmonkey]

88. You have granted my point.

Your original assertion assumed that the costs would be comparable to protect the machines. I'm just calling you on it. MS has spent a lot of money to muddy the waters around these issues. All I'm doing is saying that the case is unproven. You're right, I've seen some evidence, but it has not convinced me in any way of what you asserted. No need to post links, I just wanted to represent the unconvinced, but educated, observer of these issues. If you get further upset, you're on your own.

[mattclearing]

62. This has occurred to me as well.

As a PC tech support person, I am sick of fixing PC's. I want something that just works, and Apple is happy to oblige me.

[The Stranger]

65. Good grief. The computer people are having a flame war.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. And Linux isn't even being discussed! -nt

[The Straight Story]

71. Why not use SUN systems then?

And as far as which system is cheaper you cannot simply make a blanket statement as to cost - unless you are using computer idiots as a baseline. In which case you might say 'if you are an ignorant user, get a mac, if you are savvy get a pc'.

I have worked on macs in the past, found them as unreliable as pc's in the business environment (remember the whole netscape freeze/unfreeze?). Both systems have something to offer so why not use each as is needed for your uses?

At home I run several servers - sun sparc systems, intel based xp/2000 advanced/2000 server, and ibms running both AIX and 2000 server. I manage about 2 terabytes of storage (personal use) with 2 external scsi arrays.

Problems? Nope. Disks are in arrays, firewall is set up, updates load as needed, and the os runs fine (though some third party software tends to suck at times.)

I like all PC's. Love em. I don't care what ya own or what anyone else does. True cost analysis takes into account a lot more than listed in the article - and as someone who manages several thousand servers in several data centers I can assure there are a lot more cost factors (and, oh, sun is winning in that debate as their newer systems use a lot less power and generate less heat so that it costs us less to cool the centers and less in power).

[mattclearing]

76. You raise an interesting point, but you lost me when you said,

"I like all PC's. Love em."

They require soooo much maintenance and support. People have to learn so much just to be able to keep them working. I think Macs are much more user-friendly, less prone to difficulties, and require less software.

As a PC tech-support guy, I'm sick of it. I'm with the OP. Sign me up for a Mac network.

Sun may be great for all I know.

Mac has provided fantastic desktop/software solutions for the things that I am interested in, particularly media creation.

[The Straight Story]

79. A bit overkill though, perhaps

For example - most the people in our local office here (comprising of more than support teams) use pc's for emailing, spreadsheets, and creating presentations (as well as some web surfing). A single point solution (ie, single system to distribute updates, manage firewall, etc and so on) enables us to buy cheap systems for folks to work on. Not everyone needs a high tech system for work, and parts replacements would be more expensive on macs.

The biggest problems I have seen on pc's is not the OS, but the software poorly written for it (don't get me started on lotus notes....). With a glut of solutions one can easily get a poorly written product that causes a lot of operability problems.

I still have a trs-80 I find fun uses for :)

Oh and on those suns:

Take a Sun Fire T2000 Server for a 60-day trial. You'll enjoy:

* Greater efficiencies in your data center. The new Sun Fire servers outperform the competition with up to 3x* the performance at nearly half the power and cooling costs. Cut the number of servers you need by 3:1* or better, while increasing your datacenter capacity two or threefold.
* Extreme energy cost reductions. By greatly reducing power and cooling costs, Sun Fire T2000 Servers pay for themselves many times over. By consuming less energy, CoolThreads technology generates less heat for greater reliability and easier capacity growth.
* Serve more with less. Take IT service provisioning to the next level, by supporting more users per server.
* Greater security. Using advanced on-chip CPU encryption, Sun Fire T2000 Servers can increase your web security up to 7x* over competitive servers.

http://www.sun.com/emrkt/trycoolthreads/index.html

they also make workstations.

[The Revolution]

89. A lot of businesses do use Sun

I work for a software company that sells to businesses. We sell more software for use on Solaris than any other platform by far. Last year 56% of our sales were for the Solaris platform; Windows and AIX were next with 12% each.

We don't have macs, and our software doesn't run on macs.

Also...you have a sparc machine at home? :) I don't think I've ever heard of anyone else that actually had one at home. I would have thought anyone using Solaris at home would just use the x86/x64 version.

[The Straight Story]

90. 2 sun 280r 's and an E450 sitting next to me :)

And more out in the shed I need to bring in and configure.

E450 is old but has 4 procs and 20 hd's. I am currently decomming it to give away.

[mainegreen]

74. A lot of this will become moot as the business world moves...

toward web based business apps. It's already happening.
Even with office products.

[CabalPowered]

78. That and VM ware, coupled with thin clients

is changing the entire landscape of enterprise computing.

[high density]

93. Dumb terminals cheaper than PCs and Macs by 500-1000%

They're even more secure.

But seriously, I find his statistics to be a bit funny. Most serious businesses are going to have the same amount of virus and firewall protection whether or not their network is full of Macs or PCs. For instance, the "labor" that has gone into keeping my PC secure at work is an external firewall/proxy appliance between me and the internet, Windows Update set to run automatically every Wednesday morning at 3am, and a Symantec antivirus scanner that downloads automatic updates daily. So while this stuff does take time and money to set up, it's not possible that the cost of this would be cut in half with a Mac. Macs will most likely need an AV someday soon, if they don't already.

The author adds lots of weird things to the PCs to inflate their cost, like an "email client" and "popup blocker"-- stuff that any computer running Windows XP already has free access to. I have to imagine that any company which spends money on an email client for a PC would also probably do the same thing on the Mac (assuming a similar/compatible product was available.) Do any businesses larger than 25 people actually run "anti spam" on their local PCs? That stuff should be done at the mail server level. In addition to these hokey software charges, he makes up a lot of fake "install times" for them which most serious IT departments generally would not incur thanks to drive imaging.

Overall I think his analysis is severely biased against the PC from the get go. I have a feeling the costs of administering both PCs and Macs are very much the same once you take out all of his BS extra software installs.

[iconoclastNYC]

96. Bullshit.

If MAC was at 90% market share the virus and the hacks would be targeted towards macs and this equation would be reversed.

I work in IT and let me tell you if there were real studies that showed that macs would lower costs you'd have companies switching en masse.

[onehandle]

97. Your first sentence agrees with the study I cited.

PCs are more expensive because of viruses, hacks etc.

And there are studies every year that prove this. Even before OSX.

I'll be sure and post them in the future.

[Solon]

99. Not necessarily true...

The whole argument of "security through obscurity" falls apart on many levels. The most obvious example I can give is the difference between Microsoft's IIS and Apache internet server software. Now, Apache, an open source project, running on Linux systems, takes up about 50-60% of the market share of Internet servers, yet IIS and Windows has more hacks, viruses, and exploits than Apache and Linux. How do you explain that?

[TheBaldyMan]

103. hackers leave the linux junkies alone, it's Gate$ that gets their goat.

a badly set-up linux system can be just as insecure as a windows system it's just that the 'honour code' says look don't touch.

There are some tinfoil hatters hat convinced that the whole virus debacle is a crafty way for net security experts to get 90% of the market to pay them money on a regular basis.

[Solon]

105. That's conspiracy talk...

Besides most exploits in Windows are hacked into by script-kiddies, not serious hackers. Also, unless you run under the user "root" on Linux, which is pretty stupid, most remote and even local vulnerabilities are closed. Not to say its hack proof, I mean, a buffer overflow exploit is certainly possible to gain Superuser access to such a system, same for every other OS out there, of course, having a public auditing system of you source code actually minimizes the possibility of that and patches to close up such exploits are usually released within days(at most a week) of discovery. Unlike Microsoft, who, when they discover an exploit, will sit on it for months, and then announce the vulnerability a week before the patch is to be released, then say "hey, we fixed it!" An excellent example of this is the WMF exploit, which has been around since Windows 95, that's just pathetic.

[stepnw1f]

113. Solon. Are You Using Linux and OSX?

[geniph]

115. Shouldn't this be in the Religion group?

[alcibiades_mystery]

120. LOL

Maybe. Is there a sub-group for Cults? ;-)

[northzax]

121. ha!

it is a matter of faith, isn't it? and yes, I'm running OSX.

[smurfygirl]

126. great article, but I'm still using a PC

why,why,why?????