I had to tombstone someone on a forum I run. It's the Brokeback/Crash

[Beausoir]

debacle again. I run a non-political forum. She was ELATED that BrokeBack lost the Oscar. She has never seen the movie.

She posted the following: "Homphobia implies fear. I am not afraid of them. I just disagree with their choice to be gay." Later, she wrote "Nobody is born gay."

A couple of my members are gay and they wrote to me privately to express dismay at what she was posting. I tried to reason with her but she just got more and more freaked out and eventually asked me to delete her registration. She claimed she was being respectful and that just because she doesn't agree with homosexuality, she is being targeted.

Why do I feel so badly about this? It's upsetting to all involved.

[murielm99]

1. I'm sorry.

I understand why you feel badly. Just let it go.

Targeted my ass. These people play the victim to get what they want.

[EFerrari]

2. Remember, she had a choice to be respectful of other people.

Maybe this outcome wasn't the one you would have preferred, but you never know when a seed may be planted.

:hi:

[Occulus]

3. she SHOULD have been banned

Anyone who believes being gay is a choice is a dangerous fool who WILL NOT grant gay people any sort of equality in the least and will in fact vote to eliminate rights they themselvwes take for granted- all in the name of "not supporting a lifestyle choice".

Fuck the bitch- at least she had the "class" to ask that she be removed. Personally, I would have banned her without notice or ceremony after the FIRST comment.

[smtpgirl]

18. My sentiments exactly

She was up to something

[FreedomAngel82]

25. So banning instead of seeing if she would listen to other people?

[Occulus]

30. Yep.

These people do. Not. Change. Their. Minds.

They're like the Ori on Stargate.

[ronnykmarshall]

41. Oh please.

To hell with her.

Anyone that pulls that "no one is born gay" bullshit out of their ass needs a foot shoved up it.

Listen to other people? Yeah right.

[mondo joe]

48. Fuck yeah. It's not the job of other people to educate her.

She can behave appropriately, or not.

[TankLV]

50. Too bad you didn't ask her when she chose to be "straight".

Or the last time she had lesbian animal sex.

Either one would have been good.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. The victim card

Bigots are good at that. They make outrageous statements which they know are offensive and then when their audience reacts they get all whiny and claim you are picking on them.

Sounds like getting rid of this poster won't hurt your forum in the least.

[TankLV]

51. "You're not nice to me because I want to kill you."

"Therefore, you are the bad person."

"You are hypocritical, too, because you don't approve of me."

Heard this krap many times before.

[BOSSHOG]

Wow, it really must suck being targeted!

Let it go my friend. Your actions may be in some small way equated to removing a malignant tumor from a healthy body. Chin up, move on.

[pocket]

5. nuke her ass

damned freepers

[Lautremont]

6. The funny thing about all those homophobes who claim,

often via bumperstickers, that they "ain't a-skeert o' no faggots" is that they are in fact terrified of them. The word is apt.

[Left Is Write]

33. If not scared of them, at least threatened by them.

I have never been able to figure out why.

[benburch]

7. Wow.

I disagree with her choice to be a Woman.

How would THAT sit with HER?

[ET Awful]

8. She feels targeted because you won't let her target other members of the

forum?

How sad for her. Perhaps she should go to an ex-tarteted-targeter bible camp or something.

[Touchdown]

9. She is homophobic.

If she "just disagrees with the choice", then how did she come to the conclusion that it was a choice? What research has she done on the subject of homosexuality to arrive at this conclusion? In debating whether or not it's a choice, what is she AFRAID of by implying that it's accepted fact? If Brokeback won, what did she FEAR would happen as a result that award? A slippery slope? To proclaim, without any evidence, that "nobody is born gay", why is she AFRAID of open debate with the people who lived lifetimes as gay men and women, who would know first hand whether or not they had a choice, or knew they were different from very early on in childhood?

Make no mistake, there's a lot of fear, and a lot of denial...about homosexuality. So she is a Homophobe, no matter how much she denies it.

[northzax]

42. now to be perfectly fair

and I think that it's a bogus position, but you can make an arguement, from a religious standpoint, that being gay is one thing but that engaging in homosexual contact is wrong. I think that is a reasonable standpoint to engage in for certain people.

personally, I didn't see any of the movies in question, so I can't comment at all. but that's not unusual. I go to the movies for escapist entertainment, it's what I enjoy. I'll see the rest on DVD.

[Touchdown]

45. SHe didn't see the movie either, so that's ok.

Now, to respond. If I could be a little non-diverse a bit. One could also run with the argument that the entire concept of conservative Christianity is predicated on fear. So one has to have some fears in order to find fundamentalism appealing.

It could also be said that Religion, by it's very construct is intolerant. What the denizens of any religion agree upon is that they believe certain things, and anything contrary of those things is not of their faith, and thus they must be intolerant of them to remain faithful. Think of a circle. Everything that we believe as Christians is placed inside this circle. What is left outside of this is not of our faith, and should be discouraged, disowned, excommunicated, feared, fought against, and destroyed...not all necessarily in that order.

The act of conduct, and the human disposition to engage in it are of the same human state of being. They cannot be parsed, severed, or dissected by any intellectual exercise, faithfully reconciling or not. For if people were not gay in the first place, then engaging in hoomosexual acts would not occur. And surely, no church would expect anybody to deny their own human nature just to conform to a set of doctrines that may be mis-translated, would they?;)

[northzax]

49. See, I would argue that the essence of humanity is to overcome

baser instincts. (and I don't put homosexuality into that category, neccesarily.) I could argue that human instinct tells me to go out and sleep with as many women as I can, in order to increase the probability that my genetic code will live on. And yet, being human means resisting that baser impulse in favour of my long term relationship with my girlfriend. If we go by the actions of our closest genetic relatives, the Chimpanzee, the strong should rule over the weak, exterminating them from places where the strong want to be. And yey, that would not be considered moral behaviour among human males. this is where I depart from your statement: The act of conduct, and the human disposition to engage in it are of the same human state of being. I may have a disposition to kill someone, but that's not acceptable conduct, is it? Being human is to overcome the disposition, sometimes, in favour of more socially acceptable behaviour.

it's about picking which of our dispositions to follow, and which not to. Different people may have different choices for themselves.

[Touchdown]

65. A disposition to kill somebody is harming to others.

gay sex, of either gender is not harmful to society, or the participants. One is consensual, and unless they wish to die, the other is not. Of course behavior modification should be used to curb our more violent tendencies, but sexuality, and emotional attatchments are not violent tendencies, and should be left to human nature, so they can run their course.

I would disagree PHYSIOLOGICALLY with your belief that it's better to sleep with one woman, as opposed to many, since monogamy is a human, and religious construct and not a natural one. SOCIALLY, you are doing the right thing, because the rewards of love, and companionship are there that more than make up for the lack of seed conquest.

[northzax]

68. I agree with you

pure darwinianism tells me to spread the seed around. On the other hand, I could argue that physiologically, if I stay with one woman, and she bears me say, two children (I have none and don't want any right now) and I can provide them with a better upbringing and more socio-economic and educational advantages than the twenty children I could have by sleeping with every woman that I can, my lineage is more likely to be successful, in the long run. The question of whether humans are monogamous is an interesting one, I would suggest that perhaps the fact that males are more nurturing than in many other species (not as much as an Emperor Penguin, of course) means that we are evolving towards monogamy and nurturing of young as an evolutionary advantage. In a society, it probably is.

[ruggerson]

54. That's the catholic position

which, of course, is utterly bogus.

God made you left handed. But you must never use your left hand.

[Bluebear]

55. Ay yi yi....

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/rehu/dextera.html

[northzax]

56. to take that to a logical conclusion

God made you psycopathic, therefore, you should kill at will.

and if I think that being closer to my God requires me to overcome my lefthandedness, isn't it my right to do so?

[Bluebear]

59. Of course it's your right, it's just appears sad to me

So many aspects of what your God created are apparently undesirable to said God, if that makes any sense.

[northzax]

67. hey, I don't agree with it

just expressing what I find to be a perfectly logical extension of someone else's beliefs. Personally, I don't even have a God, but my personal ethics require me to abstain from certain things my instincts tell me to do, in favour of other longer term interests. It's why I didn't ask the really cute girl I was talking to at the bar last night for her phone number or kiss her goodnight, while the body said "go" the ethics said "hey, wait a minute, you love your girlfriend and this isn't worth that" It's the same thing. If someone wants to deny their baser instincts for what they see is the greater good, then more power to them. as long as they don't ask me to follow their code, I won't ask them to follow my code.

[Democrats_win]

10. It's a rough situation. Some think the choice was homophobic, I hope not.

I've not seen either movie, but read the original wonderful short story about BBM. But many gay columnists on the net think it was in fact homophobia in some of the movie business men.

Anyway, I wonder if we should just move on since it can't really be proven. Look at the good that came from BBM: Heath Ledger found his girlfriend, (Michelle Williams? who was also in the movie) and they had a baby. Rockmount Shirts, a Colorado instituition with it's neat 104 year old founder, got a lot of deservedly good publicity, and it showed people the consequences of missing the opportunity to love.

I hope Crash deserved to win but with the bad economy I honestly can't afford to see it.

[kevinbgoode]

11. Oh puh-leeze...she is full of fear

Tell her that denial of that fear is the best indicator of how pervasive it is. . .and then ask her to tell everyone her story of the day she CHOSE to be straight. . .

[TahitiNut]

12. I wonder when she made that 'choice' and how difficult it was for her.

I can only infer that people who hold this view are speaking from some personal experience.

I don't ever recall making such a 'choice,' even back when Kathy and I were comparing our differing personal plumbing during lunchtime in first grade. Even at that age, I sensed that her anatomy was far more fascinating to me than anything resembling my own. I think she felt the same.

[indie_voter]

13. she is a bigot.

You are a kind person to feel compassion for her. Like somebody else posted, she isn't the victim, she posted her hate filled drivel, if she can't take the proverbial heat when people respond to her then she should keep her bile to herself.

[madokie]

14. I believe the fact is gays are born not made.

I know that rasslin me down for some booty wouldn't make me gay it would piss me off big time.

[Crankie Avalon]

15. Don't let it bother you...

...she said something provocative and didn't have the testicular fortitude to stick around once she was taken up on it. So, she asked you to clip her and you simply complied with her request. Beautiful. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[lonestarnot]

16. Pooped on her parade did ye! Well I say good for ye!

[kaygore]

17. I grew up in a South

that didn't agree with the idea that Blacks were equal. We now agree as a society that Southerns were not only wrong but evil when they felt that they were being "respectful" when they lynched a Black for exercising the same rights that Whites had.

What does it matter if someone is born gay or not? What a rationalization from a person who, in another place and time, would be lynching Black people or putting her thumb down s that Christians would be eaten by lions.

She is afraid, but not of what she thinks she is afraid of. She's afraid to stand up for humanity and for the right thing to do. Because her "society" or circle choses to marginalize someone for his or her sexual orientation, so must she. I pity the smallness of her soul!

Your group is better off without her.

In fact, the world would be better off without her!

[LostinVA]

19. People on DU believe this too. I have put them on Ignore

I'm tired of having some straight man on a progressive forum tell me I chose my sexual orientation. That implies I can easily become "ex gay." SCrew it. When you look back on your life, and realize you had crushes on girls, not boys, in kindergarten, you know you're innately gay. Kids that age don't think in terms of "orientation."

[jonnyblitz]

21. I, at first glance, thought the OP was talking about a DU forum

and the woman he was talking about sounded somewhat similar to a DUer so I checked her profile for a tombstone, which there wasn't, then i realized he meant outside of DU. OOOOOOPS...:crazy: :P

[LostinVA]

22. I know!

[Maddy McCall]

71. We can wish, can't we?

:hi:

[Cats Against Frist]

35. Since you're talking about me, I will choose to respond

And since you claim to have me on ignore, but still answer my initial posts (always choosing to "selectively" ignore me, when I attempt to engage you in critical debate), I'm not sure whether you're listening or not.

The theory of social construction of sexuality v. essentialism (which is what you're claiming), was NOT invented by a band of rogue homophobes, but by social scientists, to attempt to explore the entire range of human sexuality, not just who has "the gay lightswitch" and who doesn't, according to discredited and foggy attempts to find a genetic basis for homosexuality.

I have reitertated TIME AND TIME AGAIN that I feel that gays and lesbians deserve equal rights, equal love and equal standing in society. I feel that a non-genetic basis for the legitimization of homosexuality is more important and productive than simply "justifying" it, by trying to convince people that it is, in fact, genetic, when there is absolutely no proof of that.

I have linked you to the Council for Responsible Genetics, a non-partisan organization that defends choice, and fights against genetic discrimination in health care. I've tried to REMIND YOU that all of liberalism/socialization/egalitarianism/modernity rests on the idea that one can supercede his or her genetics. I've also tried to point out the DANGERS of trying to legitimize things through genetic causes -- and that, by pursuing your inherently selfish line of thinking -- you're putting women, minorities, and future gay people (unborn) at risk.

I've also tried to tell you that I BELIEVE YOU when you say your sexuality was not a choice. I'm not saying that, in all cases, or even most cases, it has to be. I believe it is not a choice for the vast majority of homosexuals. That said, I believe that environment, and perhaps, to an extent, a number of non-genetic, but still possibly biological factors can be involved.

I'm going to say it, until I'm blue in the fucking face. There is no proof that homosexuality is genetic. All of human sexuality is complex, and all of our sexualities are constructed. GENDER is a construct. Your theories don't take into account the myriad possibilities for sexuality, nor do they take into account bisexuality, transgenderism, etc. The binary "gay" and "not-gay" is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

You can make of it, what you will. You can take as many cheap shots as you want. When you're ready to discuss this, like an adult, I'm listening.

[readmoreoften]

44. I'm gay and I agree.

There's a difference between intelligent questioning of genetic theories of homosexuality and gay bashing homophobes. I don't choose to be gay, but this is a complicated statement for me and not a simple genetic assessment of myself. I don't know why I'm gay. I don't know why I'm inclined to be a writer and filmmaker instead of an auto mechanic or interior decorator, why I prefer vanilla over strawberry ice cream, or why I'm deeply affected by political issues when some people aren't. I do know that I didn't "choose" to have certain talents, tastes, or emotional responses. Some may be genetic, others may be developed. The important thing is that I am encouraged to live my life , enhance my talents, and pursue love in the way that suits me best.

I adore my partner. Anyone who truly believes that my love for her is worthy and valid and will fight for my right to love her to the fullest extent, any person who believes that my love is equal to theirs, is an ally.

I would rather be around a social constructionist who supports queer people as full members of society than a homophobe who thinks that someday there will be a genetic "cure" for "the gays."

[sui generis]

20. what gives her reason to believe that gays "choose" it?

That we would be compelled to lie about choosing it?

Even so, "disagree with choice" is her right, just so long as it stops there. But they don't stop at disagreeing. They write laws to ruin our lives, to harm our families, to interfere with our basic happiness and personal freedoms in our relationships.

Homophobia implies ignorance. Why should she be more concerned about our lives than we are about hers? I don't agree with her choice to be a bigot. Or to have an opinion about my life - she's got a whole big life of her own to worry about.

[Beausoir]

39. I asked her to support her claim and she replied "I won't debate

that other subject." Whatever that means.
That's when she really started flying off the handle, claiming victim hood.

[Ian David]

23. Nobody is "born Christian" either

With prayer and therapy, most Christians can eventually be converted into good Muslims.

Or Scientologists.

Except that costs more money.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

57. *snort*

:rofl:

[FreedomAngel82]

24. How does she know nobody is born gay?

:shrug: Every gay person I've talked to about this has stated clearly they didn't choose it.

[Touchdown]

64. Silly! Jesus appeared in her Cheez Whiz and told her.

Try and keep up. It's all perfectly logical.:crazy:

[David Zephyr]

66. Your comments on this subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2495196#2495439

[bullwinkle428]

26. One guy at another site I frequent claims the "choice" issue comes

into play for some people, because it's "trendy"...:wtf: :banghead: :crazy:

Oh, did I mention he's also a poster at FreeRepublic?



SURPRISE, SURPRISE!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

27. "I don't fear them, I just HATE them because of their choice to be gay"

[Jax]

28. I read some pretty homophobic tripe on DU yesterday

about this film and it made me sick...comments like "I love men and don't have any plans of changing"....despicable.

[Hans Delbrook]

52. Yeah, that killed me. I thought it was "safe" here on DU. Who knew?

She even had the nerve to ask me why I thought she was homophobic - just because of her smug and hurtful statement that, "I as a straight woman may never know what it's like to live a life of a gay person. I love men and don't have any plan of changing." GAH! WTF? Here on DU??

Her premise that you have to be gay to appreciate the love story told in BBM makes about as much sense as me saying I hated Titanic because I can't relate to Irish peasants falling in love w/ upper class women.

And her statement, that Crash "...features all sorts of people who your average every day person can relate to" suggests that "your average every day person" can't relate to a story about gay love. Like it's soo different from straight love it belongs in a zoo.

I went to bed ready to weep.

[sendero]

29. "They chose to be gay"..

... yeah, I'd choose to be hated, beaten, threaten, chastised, bullied and treated like less than a full human being by a significant proportion of the population.

You did the world a favor. No message board has any obligation to let idiots who spout ideas that have been proven to be untrue as fact keep posting.

Everyone hates having to use a heavy hand against another. Some people just give you no choice. I would not sweat it, she's probably long since forgotten :)

[Radio_Guy]

31. I choose to be liberal

And where I live, I am often hated, (not beaten, thankfully), threatened, chastised, bullied and treated like less than a full human being by a significant proportion of the (local) population. I'm not gay, so I will never know what it is like to walk in their shoes. But if being with someone you love means being treated like less than a full human being by a significant proportion of the population, so be it. It wouldn't matter if I was born that way or chose to be that way...it is MY business.

[Left Is Write]

32. Even IF homosexuality were a choice -

(and I don't believe it is; after all, I didn't choose to be heterosexual)...who is she to "disgaree" with it?

It is what it is. People's personal relationships are not for others to "agree" or "disagree" with. Geez.

[Cleita]

34. Don't feel bad. She'll find a forum where everyone agrees

with her and you don't have to put up with her insults.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

36. What you posted there doesn't sound disrespectful to me

If a person cannot post at your website who "disagrees with their choice to be gay" but is not hateful or calling for persecution of gays that I can see from the writing, then it does look like she is being targeted just because she doesn't agree with homosexuality.

You can allow people to post at your site for whatever reason or not. Maybe you should put it into your rules like DU pretty much does.

I personally feel that EVERYONE has the right to believe whatever they want to believe as long as they are not physically hurting anyone or advocating violence against anyone. There is no constitutional right to not be offended that I am aware of.

[Generator]

37. Yeah maybe you would if I wrote

I disagree with your choice to be hetrosexual. You are contributing to the downfall of the planet earth with every child you have. And NOBODY needs to have any more than one child. It's clearly a CHOICE how many children you have. Who the hell are you to have so damn many? Homosexuals are SAVING the planet by not procreating and you are destroying it. (and most certainly this person is having many babies BECAUSE numero uno reason is religion to be against Homosexuality and the thought is multiplying is proof that it's ungodly.) Also we are told that Adam & Steve can't have children so it's not natural. Also used as a bullshit reason against gay marriage. As if there was a requirement that EVERYONE that gets married must have children. And as many as possible. No marriage then in you are sterile, too old or don't want children.

Of course you can believe whatever you want. However, right NOW there is much discrimination favoring the beliefs of this poster in this country and less protection of the unfavorable thing-to be gay. It's a CHOICE afterall. Well so is being a hetro and befouling the world with your endless spawn. WOW I bet you never heard that opinon heh? AND I've hear the arguments against being Gay for so damn long--AND I'm so BORED OF them-I'd love to hear someone talking on the breeders ruining the planet. It's JUST an opinion, you know.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

70. You can disagree with whatever you want

I will not try to influence someone else to shut you up.

Because I practice what I preach. As I said, there is NO Constitutional Right to stop people from thinking things you might find offensive or to live your life without fear of ever being offended by anything. I'm not for changing the Constitution for allowing such nonsense either. Real freedom can be offensive. Free Speech is Free Speech and it only ends when it advocates violence agisnt others. Or screaming fire in a crowded theatre.

Nice strawman also, as I saw nothing in the OP about "homosexuals are contributing to the downfall of planet earth" blah, blah, blah.

Maybe you should actually read what people write, rather than imagining a bunch of shit and getting pissed off about that.

[Beausoir]

38. Interestingly...her brother is gay. She trots him out from time to time

prove she's not a homophobe and then she hides him back in the closet again.

I feel like I took a stand with her that I would not allow those types of unsubstantiated comments on MY board.

She just doesn't get it and she never will.

Why is it allright for these types of people to constantly and relentlessly shove their fundamentalist hate down my throat, but when I shove back, they completely freak out?

Thank you for the comments. It may sound like a petty matter, but it really upsets me.
Being around ignorant bigots is literally exhausting.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

58. Your board, your right to ban

She is happy the movie didn't win best picture because she thinks a win would validate homosexuality.

It wouldn't, any more than not winning invalidates homosexuality.

The only thing that validates anything is box office, baby! But I digress.

She was a disruptor so you banned her. You done right.

[ronnykmarshall]

69. Thank god she not my sister.

If any of my family called it a "choice" they would be kissing my ass as I walk out of their lives.

[ronnykmarshall]

40. I wouldn't feel bad ...

Deleted a hate monger like that is better than sex. Hell, I'd light up a smoke after I did it.

[ReadTomPaine]

43. Target away, baby.

I would have told her that we live in "unilateral times" and that I am just taking cues from the top. After all, what sort of leader would flip-flop on the issue?

Humiliated and her voice denied to her, she'll learn a little about what it's like to be powerless and shut out. It's a good lesson, there are plenty of people who need to learn it.

[Jim Sagle]

46. What's the deal with all the hoohah about another soapy, dopy chick flick?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.;-)

[Cha]

47. Ang Lee won best Director, though..

did that chafe her butt? Ang gave such a sweet acceptance speech, too.

[Bluebear]

53. She had an agenda. No doubt about it.

She sounds like some whacked out fundie. "Their choice to be gay" etc. Don't lose another moment of grief over her.

[NMMNG]

60. Homophobia does not necessarily mean "fear of gays"

(homophobia)
noun: prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality

http://www.onelook.com/?w=homophobia&ls=a

And her asking you to delete her registration and claims of being targeted? She's just playing the martyr. "Poor little me, I'm just expressing my honest beliefs and those nasty people jumped all over me.:cry:" No mention of the fact that her opinions are bigoted, rude and hateful.

[Nothing Without Hope]

61. No wonder you are so disturbed by this. But don't blame yourself

for tombstoning this person. She is ignorant and homophobic and is stating falsehoods to support her own self-delusion. This has no place on your forum. You cannot erase homophobia and lies about it from the world, but you can make a safe bubble where people can discuss issues seriously.

It's bitter to be faced with this kind of destructive delusions in part because it's a microcosm of what's so wrong about our society. Also, we are encouraged to believe in the power of logic and reason to overcome this kind of thing - but in fact many people are ruled by irrational emotions and they have no desire to change this, only to drag down anyone who disagrees.

You did the right thing, as you already know. You did all you could with this person, but she is not open to facts or logic, she is homophobic and is holding fast to her self-delusion that she is tolerant and rational. Nothing you can say will shake her clinging to her beliefs; her mind is closed.

[DemonGoddess]

62. I run a non political forum as well

historical gaming, actually. And, until we made a rule that ALL politics post 1900 were strictly off limits (any posts discussings politics PRE 1900 are okay, in an historical context), I had to do that to a few as well. It's not easy to take that sort of action, but sometimes, it's necessary. It truly depends upon the nature of your forum and the kind of discussion you have there, as to what are appropriate actions. In my for instance, it was divisive and took away from why we all get together in the first place.

[xchrom]

63. she is a perfect case study in how people who are not oppressed by anybody

have managed to convince themselves{and others along the way} that they are victimized by the minority.

these are dangerous people -- capable of little in the way of common humanity if they feel cornered.

she is not being rational -- worse -- she KNOWS she is not being rational and defends it.

my feeling is you shouldn't in least feel bad about your actions.

[Malikshah]

72. Do not feel bad.

Until she is bashed, beaten and tied to a rail fence to die a slow painful death...she's not being targeted.

Sound harsh?

The soft bigotry of some is quite dangerous. That is what is harsh.