DU pro-choice men, check in!!

[MindPilot]

The man-bashing is in full swing today; it seems like ALL men are being blamed for the actions of a few religiously insane nutjobs. Opinions in some of those aforementioned threads range from men have no involvement abortion because they don't own a uterus to men haven't done enough work toward preserving abortion rights.

Personally I have put my life on the line as clinic escort--many times. I've donated to NARL, PP & NOW. I've worked on pro-choice candidates' campaigns. I've organized and fund-raised, about the only thing I haven't done is actually HAD an abortion.

Any other guys here with similar credentials?

[still_one]

1. I am pro-choice, but the reality is there are a hell of a lot men

who want to control women

[renaissanceguy]

231. Definitely. I'd like to see how fellow men would react

if/when the fundies try to outlaw masturbation.

Anything's possible with those nutcases.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.46183076

[cdb]

2. I am pro choice.

My wife told me I have to be.

[spacelady]

109. That's a good reason & I'm not being snarky. n/t

[Deep13]

3. I haven't done THAT much, ...

...but I have been pro-choice since I was in college. For a while a was literally pro-life but did not think it was a proper matter for the state to decide. Then I was pro-abortion as well as any other form of birth control. I don't believe in a soul, therefore, there is no reason to restrict any abortion as people are the product of their experience and not of divine origin. I've donated to ACLU but now usually give to candidates directly.

[Stockholm]

180. Are there DU:ers who are anything but pro-choice?

Seems to contradict the whole liberal/progressive idea?

[MountainLaurel]

234. Oh yeah, there are plenty n/t

[EOTE]

219. I do believe in a soul....

Yet I am strictly pro-choice. I believe a soul is in a way the sum of our life experiences, so I don't believe that fetuses have souls. Other than that, it IS a woman's choice. I've given to the ACLU as well, and have donated to several pro-choice candidates. Otherwise, I just make sure to only throw my support behind pro-choice politicians.

[Bluzmann57]

4. I am a man and I am pro choice

Do we as men have a right to tell women what to do with their bodies? Not really, but if it's my seed inside the woman, I damn sure have some type of say in whether or not the woman is going to have an abortion. Having said that, I do think women are intelligent enough to make their own choice.
Now I'm almost sure I'm going to get slammed for a sentence included above, so let me clarify. If my seed is inside the woman, and she chooses to abort the child, it would be nice to be made aware of her decision. In a case like that, it would seem to be a mutual decision. Difficult decision I imagine. I have to go, so if anyone rips me, don't expect an answer for a while. But I am pro choice, although without the credentials of the original poster.

[atreides1]

34. Your example

Would only apply if you and the woman in question were involved in a committed relationship, not if your seed was inside of her because of a one night stand!

[Bluzmann57]

42. Very good point

I suppose I should have thought of that.

[spacelady]

112. OK, I have made this sticky point before & NOBODY has yet given

anything close to a fair and unbiased opinion--One night stand, woman gets pregnant, she chooses life, man does not want child, but is legally forced to pay child support for next 18+ years. Other side of coin, woman gets pregnant from one night stand, chooses abortion, man wants child, his opinion does not matter.

BTW, I am absolutely women's pro-choice, just thinking that in my case I would want to be prepared to be fully responsible for any child I chose to bring into the world regardless of whether the father wanted to be involved or not emotionally or financially.

[BoneDaddy]

188. Good points all around

I concur.

[Warpy]

45. It stopped being YOURS when you LET GO OF IT

If you want to keep control of it, catch it in a CONDOM.

Yes, C-O-N-D-O-M. That is where YOUR choice comes in. Wear one and control the outcome, or GIVE AWAY "your seed" and let HER decide what to do with it.

[katinmn]

173. Very good response.

:yourock:

[Triana]

184. What Warpy said....Men do have a say in choice...

...absolutely. Men have a choice. At what POINT their choice is made is the crux of that discussion. It is made long before a pregnancy occurs or doesn't, as a result of any sexual encounter. Once he releases his sperm into a woman, it and any resulting life form belongs to her. Below is a piece from a previous post on the subject. It wasn't written by me but by another DUer whose handle I don't have. If anyone knows who wrote the below, please attribute appropriately:
_ _ _ _ _

Men do have a say in choice

Have you heard the right-wing talking point that men have no choice in matters of reproduction? Guess what? They do. It is a man's choice who he elects to have sexual intercourse with and if he uses protection during that act. That is the man's choice.

It is a man's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to produce offspring and to take action based on that decision. Once the sperm has been freed to fate, however, the choices that remain belong solely to the woman.

It is the woman who will have her body altered.

It is the woman who will possibly lose a promotion within her chosen career.

It is the woman who will undergo labor and delivery.

It is the woman who must open herself up to the possibility of loss, as well as joy.

In short, it is the woman who must bear the pregnancy and all the after-shocks of that life journey.

To argue otherwise is to deny the fact that a woman's body is her own. In order to believe that a woman's decision in reference to her own mental and physical health must be first approved by her husband or lover is to equate her with property owned by men. A woman's liberty does not disintegrate when marriage vows are taken or when underpants are removed. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is not gender-specific.

Please do not try to tell me that a man has no choice in the matter of reproduction. He does.

[renaissanceguy]

232. That's a REALLY GOOD POINT.

Bravo!!

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.46183076

[Yupster]

145. But it can't be a joint decision

You can't have a 1-1 tie on whether to have an abortion or not.

Someone has to decide and it must be the woman.

I do think the woman's right to choose should end there though.

She should decide whether she becomes a parent or not.

I do not believe she has a right to decide whether the man should become a parent or not, especially if there is not a committed relationship involved.

I think that's taking her right to choose too far.

[cdsilv]

5. I don't have any credentials, but I am the father of two daughters....

...and the ex-husband of a mother who had two miscarriages. That't not the reason we divorced.

I'm not really FOR abortion, but it is not my decision to make. If one of my daughters feels that she needs an abortion for whatever reason, I believe that is her decision. I will stand by her.

That is all.

[w13rd0]

6. Until I'm able...

...to pop a 10 pound child from a small opening beneath my equator, I acknowledge that I have absolutely no right to an opinion about a womans reproductive choices.

[Ohio Joe]

14. I view it from just a slightly different angle

My opinion on the matter is that the choice should be up to those that actually can pop a 10 pound child from a small opening beneath their equator.

[BiggJawn]

7. That's me!

I think I can tell you to be pregnant or not?
I don't think so.

[coalition_unwilling]

8. I'm a man (I think) and I agree (I think) with

Jeanene Garafolo's position on "The Majority Report" last night:

Only women should have any role in deciding the issue.

I plan to commit felonious civil disobedience against the South Dakota law, probably by helping organize either an underground railroad for poor women who seek family planning (poor women are the real target of the legislation, as rich SD Repuke suburbuanites whose debutantes get in trouble can just gas up the SUV and "head to Californi") or by organizing underground women's health collectives to provide family planning services for afore-mentioned women.

[wake.up.america]

20. You will be saving many women from back alley clinics.

[coalition_unwilling]

241. That's my plan (still rather vague at this point) but

will involve driving there at my expense and trying to hook up with whatever indigenous underground resistance has developed and placing my car and my driving time at its disposal.

Q: Is abortion still legal in North Dakota? (That's a sight closer than Canada.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. Thank you, MindPilot.

From someone with a Uterus.:hi: Thank you for helping us fight the good fight.

And a BIG THANK YOU to all our DU Pro-Choice men!:hug:

[nickinSTL]

10. haven't done a lot actively...

but I'm absolutely against the government being involved in abortion.

It's noone's business but that of the woman and her doctor. Period.

I'm in favor of trying to cut down on the number of abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies from occurring (by education, contraception, a strong economy in which women can participate on an equal footing with men) but that it should NEVER be illegal, it should always be an option, and an AVAILABLE option.

[Journeyman]

11. If DU posters are calling DU men to account for the present situation. . .

then those posters are too misguided and confused, or too angry to be reasoned with. They should direct their energies towards areas where their activism will have an impact and quit griping because some in the chorus are singing off pitch.

[Katherine Brengle]

87. It has nothing to do with "DU men" but men in general and the failure

of men to take responsibility for their domination of our entire culture.

Damn right some of us are angry--you try being part of half of the population that has never been considered fully human by the other half of society...

We don't think the men on DU are bad guys--but you are all part of that dominant gender, and therefore bear some responsibility for the actions of your brethren.

[Journeyman]

91. Take your efforts outside the choir is all I'm saying. . .

you'll get no converts in a room of believers -- why waste your breath trying to convince me of something I've believed for most likely longer than you've been alive? And please, don't even attempt to make me accountable for the choices of other people. I didn't create this society -- I just got here, in a relative sort of way -- but I've done my best and continue to do my best to change and modify this world we've found ourselves cast unto, and beyond that, no one has a right to ask more of any other.

[Katherine Brengle]

131. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything--just

adding my own opinion to the pile.

[mondo joe]

124. Men are not more anti choice than women.

Statistically there are minor variations between men and women, some in which EACH gender is more anti choice. But the differences are minuscule.

Men are not the enemies of choice.

[Warren DeMontague]

130. The enemies of choice

are the people who don't understand that "choice" means sometimes other people are going to choose to do things with THEIR OWN bodies that the enemies of choice don't like.

And in my experience, they come in all ideological stripes, not to mention genders.

[Katherine Brengle]

133. Did I ever say that they were? n/t

[mondo joe]

134. No - you just blame men for dominance of culture, despite the fact that

women also comprise culture.

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

191. Thank you

Many of the anti-male extremists hold men solely accountable for this issue and tend to be extremely irrational and unfair when they blame men. Where is their outrage for the vast numbers of women who are anti-choice?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

181. No, we don't.

You're making the mistake of considering "men" and "women" as two entities, rather than two hundred and fifty million. I am no more responsible for the actions of any other man than I am for the actions of any woman.

Collective responsibility is a very dangerous idea indeed. A human being is responsible for their own actions, nothing more, nothing less.

And the claim that "women have never been considered fully human by the other half of society" is just not true. There may still be a few men (and an even fewer women) who think that women "aren't fully human" or something equivalent, but only a very few.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

183. I'm an 80% pro-choice man.

I think abortion should be legal on demand for the first 20-24 weeks, and in certain circumstances (particular risk to mother, rape, disability etc) all the way up to birth, but I don't support unrestricted third-trimester abortion.

In terms of American politics, though I think candidates more pro-choice than I am are better than ones less so, because currently the pendulum is too far in the anti-choice direction.

On edit: drat. This was meant to be a reply to the OP. It has nothing to do with my other post. Ah, the wonders of modern technology... sigh...

[RazzleDazzle]

207. Learn a few facts, will ya?

NO ONE supports "unrestricted third-trimester abortion," and they don't exist, nor is anyone calling for them. Roe v. Wade did not authorize such.

The mere fact that you are using such language, qualifying your "support" in that way indicates you have been brain-washed by some of the anti-abortion folks. Get over it, and for God's sake have a little more respect to the WOMEN involved (as if women go seeking third trimester abortions for perfecly healthy fetuses!!), not to mention their doctors (who you must think are eager to comply).

Sheesh.

[BoneDaddy]

189. Absolutely not

I bear NO responsibility for others of my gender. Would I hold you accountable for Mary Matlin, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingram, Condi Rice? Wrong.

I will say I have an accountablity to speak up, yes, I will say that, but don't you dare try that piece of chicanery.

[BoneDaddy]

254. Okay

I hold you responsible for all the women who are anti-choice. That makes sense according to your logic.
HORSESHIT.

[gekeeley]

12. Word up.

Male. Pro-choice. Done and done.

I agree with the belief that only women should have a say in this, its their body, their choice, their decision. Its pretty simple.

[Nederland]

16. Wouldn't make a difference

There is a confusion around DU that gender makes a difference in ones opinion on abortion. It doesn't. All the polls show this.

[northofdenali]

56. I hope someone's welcomed you to DU!

Our men are the best. No one agrees with everyone all the time - but DU'ers have got your back when you need it.

Thanks, DU Dudes from the distaff side :hug:

[gratuitous]

13. You have no right to my body

And I have no right to yours. Put me solidly in the pro-choice camp.

Now, if you come to me as a friend for advice, I have all sorts of input based on our long-standing relationship and what I know about you, and I'll probably support your ultimate decision. Otherwise, this is not a matter for the law of the land to address except to say that it's nobody else's business. And apparently, we need a law to tell some people to mind their own business.

[MuseRider]

15. To you MindPilot and to all the others

here and elsewhere who have done these things I owe you a debt of gratitude. Please know that we know it is not all of you.

We are desperate to keep these things from happening, especially those of us who were "active" pre Roe. We NEED you to do more than speak up or write a letter now and then. We need you to talk about it openly and to continue to do the things that you, MindPilot, have done.

We will never win this without you all alongside us.

[wicket]

18. Amen, sister

:thumbsup:

[mongo]

39. I'm right there with you MuseRider

But have you seen all these threads lately?

A lot of DU'ers want to make this about MEN telling WOMEN what to do -- it's not a gender war. It's a war between free people and theocrats hell bent on ruining America.

[MuseRider]

49. Thank you.

I have to admit that I am having a difficult time caring about some men these days. Those men make it hard for us to not fight with each other and it very much feels like a gender war at times.

For those of you who do fight with us please remember how stressed this is making us. It makes it difficult to take a well intentioned but not so nice joke. It would not hurt to step back and give us a little slack from time to time when we need to vent. I do not know anyone who "hates" all men but I have to admit at times I care very little for a lot of them because of this.

You are correct that it is all about the theocrats, men and women. I will try to keep that in mind. After all, several of the men on this board who I know are men I would trust totally to stand with me and never say or do anything that would sell me out.

[MindPilot]

61. Thanks Mongo!!

That's pretty much what I was trying to say with way too many words. :hi:

[FtWayneBlue]

17. Pro-choice

here in Indiana. The state legislators have been making noises for a while, it seems they want to make this the next state to ban abortion.

[Random_Australian]

19. I am pro-choice

but have never done anything about it, because aside from a drug called RU-486 there has never been any attempt to restrict abortions here...

[negativenihil]

21. I am not "pro-life"...

Here's the deal.

IMO - i do not feel i have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body. This is something that is between the people who've conceved the child, and i have no right to tell someone else to either keep or abort an unwanted pregnancy.

If i found myseif in a situation where an unexpected pregnancy happened, i'd want the option for abortion.

Such a messy subject.

[Yupster]

147. "something between the people who conceived the child" ??

Personally I think it's a woman's right to choose.

The man can offer his opinion if he wants and the woman if she wants to might be nice enough to thank him for it. But it's up to her what she does regardless of what he says.

[racaulk]

22. I am a man and I am pro-choice.

Whether or not a woman has an abortion is a decision to be made by the woman involved, hopefully under medical supervision. To me, it's as simple as that.

[rman]

23. check

[mattclearing]

24. Very pro-choice, always have been.

I don't believe I have any right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her reproductive organs.

Too many children are being born into bad situations anyway.

[HERVEPA]

25. I'm an escort and ....

an escort coordinator at Planned Parenthood. Have been doing this for about 13 years, mostly one or two Saturday mornings per month.
"Spawn of Satan" is one of the nicer names I've been called.

[Solly Mack]

29. We need more "Spawns of Satan" just like you

Thank you.

[lukasahero]

47. Thank you for walking the walk, so to speak.

You may never had heard the words, but by some scared young woman, one of the names you were probably called was "hero".

[DrGonzoLives]

26. Ooga ooga

Me caveman. Me want dominate woman. Ooga ooga.

Not really.

[johnnie]

27. I'm not pro abortion

But I am 100% pro-choice. It's too bad men are getting bashed on this because I know many men who are on the same page as I am with the issue. I also know people, men and women who are anti-choice.

To me, this isn't a gender issue. We *all* should be standing up for the rights of others.

[mongo]

28. Check!

Women have an absolute right to control their own bodies.

[stop the bleeding]

30. checking in n/t

[SidDithers]

31. I'm pro-choice, and pro-privacy...

a persons medical decisions, their reasons for making those decisions, and their medical history are none of my, or anyone elses business.

Sid

[FuzzyDicePHL]

44. Yes!

Well put, Sid. I'm with you.

[ThomCat]

32. I'm pro-choice, but I don't see the man-bashing.

I see some generalizations about guys that are accurate As Generalizations. I see some very legitimate frustrations with what many guys do/believe/support. But I don't see anything I would classify as man-bashing.

I too have volunteered as a pro-choice escort at a clinic. Once a week for 4-5 years back in the 80s and 90s. I donate money at least once a year when I can.

Let's concentrate on opposing the anti-choice nuts and try to get involved in in-fighting. It's not productive. We're all frustrated, but let's point it outward, not inward at each other.

[Stuckinthebush]

33. Ding Ding

Hand raises enthusiastically.

Although, men are a very real problem with the anti-choice crowd, I'm glad my progressive brethren are part of the solution.

[KAZ]

35. NARAL Leadership Circle here.

My wife, and my sisters are not second-class citizens, and I'll fight these fucks to the death to keep it that way.

[YOY]

36. Here and sick of fundies as well as the man bashing

Sorry ladies, but IMHO acting like an asswipe is not my generation and not my persuasion. It's your body and I'll never say otherwise.

Although I can say as a happily married heterosexual man that the problem with our society is not just over testoseroned males, but also the women who seem to think that the 'tough guy who thinks with his fists' would make an ideal mate.

[ronnykmarshall]

37. Pro-choice and a NOW member.

A was a NOW member when I was in H.S. I was very supportive of the ERA.

[lakeguy]

38. Check! nt

[Canuckistanian]

40. It's not my business telling women what to do with their bodies

Simple as that. Passing laws telling them what to do is state intervention at it's worst.

[flvegan]

41. I'm pro her choice. Count me in!

I've not had the chance to do the clinic escort thing, though, so you're head and shoulders over me. Direct action rocks!

[sui generis]

43. why is the rhetorical idea that men don't have a say in abortion

considered man bashing?

I really don't get it, and I'm not being rhetorical.

Explain.

On Edit: I would vote to support women's choice of course, but there is nothing in the world that affects me less than this topic.

[MuseRider]

52. You walk with us and

we walk with you. One group or another, we will all eventually be the ones they are picking out. For now it is both of us and maybe it always has been both of us but if we don't stand together we will all fall.

[sui generis]

63. muse nobody was saying you should stand alone

I guess there's a perspective issue and we're buying into the "other side's" fighting style.

I will definitely support a womens right to choice with my vote and actions - that's not even remotely the issue. But in a very narrow world of words, this is a decision about women that should be made by women, or rather this shouldn't even be an issue since it concerns personal choice.

Is there a sentiment that more women are against abortion than for? Maybe that's the piece I'm missing here. I'm not trying to be dense; there's just a subtext here that I'm not getting.

[MuseRider]

96. sui

I wish I could give you a rational answer. At this moment I am incapable of even being rational about this and you are one person I would never want to insult. I did not mean that you would not stand with us, I know you would.

Women against available abortion, yes, a whole bunch of them. Why? No fucking clue at all. It makes as much sense to me as the fight against the GLBT community. The only thing I can come up with as an answer is that they have never been allowed or courageous enough to break away from what their "society" says they should be. Meek, a help mate, quiet, obedient and doing what their husband (church?) says. There are a lot of women like that. My father and mother tried as hard as they could to raise me that way but being me I broke out and away as quickly as I could so the thought of any woman, especially these days, putting up with that just boggles my mind. But they are there and they do and think what they are told. I am also sure that there are some who are totally against it all on their own, I mean who really is anti life? Still, it is one thing to be against something and another to try to force others to live your belief.

See, I have no more clue about this issue than I do any of the things they are trying to do to all of us. :shrug:

[Jacobin]

53. Probably because of this

Men don't have to squeeze a watermelon out of a small orifice, after having carried it around for months, not to mention the next 18 plus years of care and feeding

[DrGonzoLives]

57. Maybe because of statements like this

DU is mostly silent

what is there to say? women have been kicked in the vagina again. . . by the men

are you men happy now?

[sui generis]

92. that was cryptic

I reread it and I reread my statement and I'm not sure how you got to that.

Anyway, for the record and to clear it up for any late nite posters - I hate the idea of abortion, but I value an individual's freedom of choice much more, but aside from support of a woman's choices for her reasons, whatever they may be, I personally don't think I have a say in whether women should or should not have abortions.

I support a woman's right to choose.

Hopefully statements like this do NOT keep DU silent and nobody has been kicked in the vagina or testicles, at least not by me.

[Mikimouse]

46. Definitely pro-choice...n/t

[jsamuel]

48. I am against "no-choice"!

[Mandate My Ass]

50. Thank you for all you do to keep choice legal

Sorry about the man bashing. I don't believe in taking frustrations out on an entire gender. Hopefully things will calm down soon cause I've been flamed myself. :yourock:

[Jacobin]

51. Utterly pro-choice and have been since day one

It is a matter between a woman and her doctor. Period.
Paragraph.
No ifs, ands, or buts allowed.

[Broke In Jersey]

54. You should be able to do what you want with your own body -

whether its a haircut, a nipple ring, cutting off a toe, committing suicide, or having an abortion! No one should ever tell you what to do!!!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. First And Foremost, The Abortion Debate Has ZERO To Do With Man VS Woman.

That notion on it's own is purely sexist, misguided and inaccurate. I agree with you though, that many feel the need to twist it into that anyway, regardless of it's lack of accuracy.

Having that said, I am pro-choice even though there are many circumstances in which I do not believe abortion is ethical or appropriate. Regardless of that opinion, however, I believe it is up to the individual to choose for themselves what they perceive to be ethical.

[TheWraith]

60. (Applause)

[Laelth]

98. I must, respectfully, disagree.

I am completely pro-choice, and would support a woman's right to choose under any circumstances ...

If your uterus isn't private and protected by the 4th Amendment, then nothing is.

However, I see these attempts to control women through abortion restrictions as nothing more and nothing less than a direct reaction to the tremendous power that women have gained over the past 100 years. Many people (both men and women) think women have gained too much power while men have, correspondingly, lost power. These people want to do something about it. Abortion laws do little to control women, but they make these people feel better. Others of us (both men and women) feel that, despite the fact that women have gained tremendous power, that they must be made complete civil equals in our society (equal work for equal pay, unrestricted access to all jobs, etc.) Sure, there are men and women on both sides of this issue, but the debate is, at its core, man vs. woman. We're sorting out what the appropriate roles and powers for our genders ought to be.

-Laelth

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. 100% Absolutely Not A Man Vs Woman Issue.

Saying otherwise is false on its face. If you believe otherwise, I would ask that you visit this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x601054 or click any of the links below.

Thanks! :hi:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11385.xml?ReleaseID=738

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/22/opinion/polls/main537570.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=88

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/nov/05111502.html

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11385.xml?ReleaseID=820 (starting at Question 14)

[Laelth]

110. Sigh.

Did you read my post, or just react?

-Laelth

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Of Course I Read It. I Never Reply In Ignorance To Context.

I tried reading it several times to make sure I understood where you were coming from since the first time I read it I was slightly confused at how you said men vs women yet used in every example that it was men and women on each side, which lined up with what I was saying. Upon reading it further, however, I found myself disagreeing that it is in any way a power struggle, that it is more just a simple issue of perception of life or perception of privacy and individual rights. You finished by saying at its core it is men vs women. It isn't. It is perception vs perception regardless of gender. Equal to or More women are against abortion than men. That's a fact. In my humble opinion, calling it men vs women for any reason is simply faulted. (though I will agree with your logic that on certain levels within the argument it is about the issues you speak, but that is only a very small aspect of the overall debate)

[Laelth]

114. Exactly.

In essense, you and I were agreeing. That's why I was dismayed by your "100% Absolutely Not A Man Vs Woman Issue" header and your list of links copied and pasted from another thread.

Perhaps the fault here is mine. My "respectfully disagree" header was ironic and semantic.

-Laelth

[Laelth]

118. Let me also add ...

... that I don't highly value a "perception vs. reality" dichotomy. What we are, in reality, is irrelevant and, ultimately, unknowable. What we perceive ourselves to be, and what we perceive our "proper" gender roles to be, is what really matters. From that perspective, I see "us" as a civilization, struggling with the "man. vs. woman" question. To me, then, it is a man vs. woman debate. It is not "real" men fighting against "real" women, as you rightly note. It is people (both men and women) on one side fighting against people (both men and women) on the other side about how we will distinguish between men and women. Exactly what, we want to know, will that dividing line be?

Are we confused yet? :crazy:

-Laelth

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

121. In That Context I Agree With You 100%, And Thank You.

My apologies for my earlier tone. Not only am I enjoying your perspective, but have found it quite refreshing to communicate with someone who kept it on an intellectual level. There have been so many radical and twisted attacks on this topic lately that I almost started defaulting to expecting the replies to be of that nature. I was wrong though and you have 100% earned my respect for the intellectual level on which you communicated back. I enjoy those with the ability to think and perceive a bit deeper. What I'm wondering though, is why your screenname looks so unfamiliar to me and don't recall seeing it often, though I long for and look out for intellectual posts. Do you post in GD often and I miss it? Or do you mainly hang out in one of the other "Big 6"?

Anyway, off to bed I go. Goodnight and thanks for the objectivity. :)

[Laelth]

260. My pleasure.

I figure that on DU we're all, basically, intelligent and on the same side (more or less).

As for why you haven't seen me around, that I can't explain. Admittedly, I read more on DU than I post, but when I do post it's usually in GD or LBN and, occasionally, over in the Lounge. I'm almost always up for a rational discussion of these rather important issues. Hats off to ya.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Donald Ian Rankin]

182. Whether or not it's a man vs woman thing

I don't think it's about gender roles, at least not for the anti-abortion movement.

To give the devil his due, I think that nearly all anti-abortion campaigners would be doing just the same if it was men having babies; I think most of them really are motivated by the believe that abortion is morally equivalent to murder.

Incidentally, this is why I've got into heated arguments with other equally pro-choice individuals for arguing that most of the arguments advanced by pro-choicers are invalid or irrelevant; the only one we actually ought to be advancing is "no it isn't"; once you've done that (which you do by pointing out that a foetus isn't self-aware) you've won the debate, and unless you've done that then you've lost it despite being on the right side, at least by my scoring.

For pro-choicers, on the other hand, the abortion debate is to some extent about gender roles: one of the reasons a lot of people *support* the right to abortion is that it clearly has had an emancipating effect on women, which is clearly a good thing (that's not one of the reasons I support it, because I think that if it were murder then that wouldn't be a sufficient reason to legalise it, and as it's not you don't need any further justification, but I can see where people taking that view are coming from, at least).

[RazzleDazzle]

210. Thank you, exactly right, PLUS

don't forget the horror these sexually repressed idjits have about women having -- and worse yet, enjoying -- their own sexuality. The urge for men to wan to control ALL women's sexuality, including "their own women," has been responsible for many horrors and continues to this day. Because the most awesome power is women's sexual power, exceeded ONLY by her spiritual power (which the Catholic Church understands full well).

[TahitiNut]

137. Agreed 100%.

:thumbsup:

[porphyrian]

58. I'm pro-choice, and not just for abortion. - n/t

[TheWraith]

59. A long, convoluted explanation.

"The man-bashing is in full swing today"

Unfortunately, yes. Some people here tend to forget that the percentage split on abortion is nearly the same whether you're polling men or women.

"Opinions in some of those aforementioned threads range from men have no involvement abortion because they don't own a uterus"

If that logic held, then women should have no say in whether a man wears a condom, because they don't have a penis. It takes two people to create this situation in the first place. It's a matter of law, not a neofeminist bully pulpit.

Alright. I seriously considered not weighing in on this thread, because my opinion is sure to be unpopular. But I thought it needed to be said.

I don't like abortion. I don't think it should be treated as casually as it is. I don't think that it should be treated as if it's a good thing. And I'm all for keeping it legal.

Why? Well, for one thing, it would be unethical to say anything else. You can't outlaw something because you feel that it's not good. I don't like smoking, but outlawing it would be unacceptable. More importantly, just because I don't think it's a good thing doesn't mean it's not neccessary. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have war, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to abolish the military to try and create an ideal world.

A lot of people here behave like abortion is some kind of great and wonderful triumph. They forget that the bottom line is always something bad, whether it's birth defect, rape, medical emergency, or simply someone playing fast and loose with their reproductive organs. That's plenty of reason to keep it legal in the here and now. But is it really that much of a shock to think that in a perfect world, we wouldn't have any abortions?

[Maru Kitteh]

99. Women DON'T have a say in whether a man wears a condom, they

have a choice whether or not to have SEX with a man with no condom. They can say no, just like men can choose to keep it in their pants.

NOBODY has any business making ANY value judgments on what ANY woman does with her own body, this holds even more so when the person passing inane value judgments like "it shouldn't be done casually" has

no fucking uterus.

CASUALLY?? WTF are you TALKING ABOUT?

Ladies, when was the last time we all got together for a good ol' fashioned casual abortion party? Gee, it's been so long. :puke:

[Yupster]

157. I think a mother who keeps herself

strung out on cocaine is a sorry ass mother.

And if that means I'm making a value judgement on what a woman is doing with her own body, then I guess I need to be pilloried for it, but that's the way I feel.

[Maru Kitteh]

235. Thanks for the Red Herring, but I've already had lunch n/t.

[Yupster]

261. Well you're the one who said

"NOBODY has any business making ANY value judgments on what ANY woman does with her own body"

Kind of a dumb thing to say isn't it with pregnant women smoking and taking crack and all. I really can't make a value judgement about them?

[Maru Kitteh]

267. Perhaps I was wrong

to chose to believe that you were smart enough to realize what the statement meant within the obvious context? I prefer to give the benifit of the doubt.

[TheWraith]

244. Do not raise your voice at me.

Of course a woman has a say in whether a man wears a condom. Don't act like an idiot, making semantic distinctions for the sake of being contrary.

I don't think you know me nearly well enough to say that I have "no fucking uterus." You seem to have jumped to a conclusion about my gender based solely on your preconceived notions of who is supposedly on "your side." Need I remind you that nearly as many women oppose abortion as men?

And yes, casually. You know what I mean, so again, don't act like an imbecile and try to change the point. The Screamer faction loves to act as though abortion is an obvious and minor thing that absolutely no one of sound mind could ever have issue with. The reality is that it is treated like it's no big deal. It is a VERY big deal, and one that should be treated in a sober and respectful manner--not as a crowbar for beating up anyone who doesn't bow to your personal views of the world. Witness your response to my message: it's not enough that someone agrees with your general aims, they must worship at your personal altar, otherwise they're evil incarnate.

The two movements have been fighting for so long that they've become defined by their diametric opposition to the other. They're incapable of conceeding that there are good uses for abortion, and you're unable to admit that some reasonable people could see it as the ending of a developing human life. Just those two tiny little ideological concessions, and nothing else, could take most of the wind out of this private little war of yours, but that would actually involve rational thought and debate, and god knows we can't have that. Then people might actually be able to make up their own minds. So it's no wonder that screaming tirades like yours alienate many moderate people who would otherwise be behind you. Congratulations on being an extremist. Of course, you'll be unable to understand why that's a bad thing.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

64. yo.

Former clinic escort here as well.

[Maine-i-acs]

65. I do not like abortion!

And wish there were none.

But I detest even more living in a place where a woman whose egg is conceived is forced by the will of the state to carry the baby to term under penalty of law. Thus I will fight for a woman's reproductive choice.

Which nations force reproductive slavery upon their women? Only the most oppressive.

With access to sex education and contraception, unintended pregnancies drop dramatically. Are these tools more accessible since 2000? Nope...

How many adopted crack babies are living in the SD Governor's mansion? How many unwanted babies will he adopt when this becomes law? Ask your favorite pro-lifer how many crack babies or meth babies they've adopted.

[file83]

135. Nobody "likes" it.

But the anti-abortion wingnuts like to try and claim that Pro-Choice advocates "love it". As if we go around having orgies with no protection just so we can have a partying DUI caravan of pregnant women and drunken men crash into the abortion clinic to have a hyped up bloody abortion party. As if.

It's a horrible procedure that no one enjoys - but then again, so are many medical procedures. No one likes it but the other option (back alley jobs) is completely unacceptable.

[Gelliebeans]

228. Exactly

I can't imagine any woman waiting around to get knocked up so she go shopping for an abortion.
That is just sick.

[Beaverhausen]

66. Thanks to you all!

Please just understand how passionate we women are about this topic. We are facing the loss of control over our own bodies.

I know we don't really mean to bash you, but instead the anger is pointed toward all these men who are trying to control our bodies.

edited cause I can't spel.

[hack89]

67. I am pro-choice nt

[Rowdyboy]

68. You don't tell me who to sleep with, I don't tell you what to do with your

body. Its that simple.

The decision to bear a child or to seek to terminate the pregnancy should be that of the pregnant woman after consultation with her doctor. The government has no business making decisions about sex, reproduction or health decisions, including euthanasia and marijuana use. Protect our borders, keep our infrastructure sound, keep the economy strong, provide for adequate health care and a social safety net then leave us the fuck alone.

[TahitiNut]

69. I resist violating my "virtue is its own reward" principles.

I am, however, quite appalled to wade through so much sexism and male-bashing on DU, of all places. I've been a pro-choice guy all of my life, even before Roe v. Wade - which is more than some of the male-bashers can say. I knew someone who died due to a septic, "back-ally" abortion. I've done volunteer support work with survivors of rape and sexual abuse. I've also known quite a few anti-choice females! Framing this as some gender war is just plain wrong-headed and insulting.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mongo]

224. So what makes it not sexism?

It's funny when sexism against women is encountered and challenged on DU, it is usually a word directed at a particular public figure - whose behavior may warrent the description. But the mere mention of the word is sexist. But of course, no one complains when a male public figure is called a prick -- whose behavior also warrents the description.

But sexism against men here on DU usually takes the broad-brush approach "men just want to control our bodies", "men can't keep it in their pants", etc.

Unless of course, you're one the "feminists" who believe you can't be sexist against men. IMO, that is just an excuse to justify bigoted behavior.

[immoderate]

70. Pro-choice here. Nothing else makes sense.

--IMM

[Iris]

71. I'm not a man but I think it's worth mentioning that in most polls

men are usually MORE pro-choice than women. I get pretty pissed off when man-bashing becomes the way women express anger and fear at what's going on.

Thanks for being here for us. Please, stick with us.

[WillyT]

72. Here...

I've held several women's hands taking them to the clinic for the procedure. Sat with them while they waited, held them when they came out, and talked and comforted them way into the wee hours after.

Too bad the assholes who impregnated them didn't have the courage to do it.

:shrug:

[DanCa]

73. I just wanted to say that I voted for Kerry and not 3rd party....

Because I knew this culture war crap would start under Dubya's watch. My conscience is clear.
Btw the Catholics asked me to leave the Church in 2000 when I refused to take pictures with my digital camera for a website that listed the names and addresses of said woman and their doctors. I was so upset by this that I lost my voice for 3 days, but hey doing the right thing is never easy. Hey I have been fighting these creeps for a long long time can anyone else say that?

[LSdemocrat]

74. I'm pro-choice

[iconoclastNYC]

75. I don't donate to pro-choice groups.

I don't think they are effective and I think they hurt our party.

[AndyTiedye]

178. Abortion is the Perfect Republican Issue. Of Course It Hurts Our Party!

That's why they keep bringing it up.
This issue will hurt us no matter how we play it.
Always has, and always will.
Even though the majority agrees with us.

We have to keep fighting for reproductive freedom
because it is the right thing to do.

We should not be under any illusions that our support
for reproductive freedom will ever help us electorally.
Quite the contrary. Our efforts to keep abortion legal
are very costly for us electorally, and the increasing
political activity by the Catholic Church will only make it worse.

If we cave, it costs us even more votes, since we won't
pick up the anti's and we lose some of our base.
(some Dems don't seem to understand this).

It is the nature of defending a freedom that most people don't want
to admit they might need.

[iconoclastNYC]

263. I agree.

But i just think giving money to fight one issue is a waste of resources when we're also fighting to save Democracy. Abortion won't matter much once we are all living under a right-wing totaltarian police state. And I don't think that's so far-fetched.

[LeftCoast]

76. I'm a pro-choice man who won't be spending any money in SD any time soon

or in any other state that sees fit to pass this type of law (this means you Mississippi).

[Kenergy]

77. Pro-choice n/t

[im10ashus]

78. You've done more to help than most men.

Not that it's any of our business what a woman and her doctor decide is the best alternative. Thank you for all you've done. I too am pro-choice!

[Saboburns]

79. Right here bro,

Tis a woman's body. Do wih it what you will.

[NastyRiffraff]

80. THANK YOU, guys!

You've restored my faith in the male gender.

Yes, I have a uterus (no longer active, tho!). But I've been following the road to a theocracy with alarm, and abortion is only one of the reasons. But it's definitely a piece of the theocratic state.

I hope I've never bashed men in DU...I don't think I have. If I have, my humble apologies. When I read this thread, with some men saying outright they're pro-choice, some saying they don't LIKE abortion but they support a woman's right to choose (and that's a legitimate position), and PARTICULARLY those who have been escorts and other helpers at abortion clinics, I have to say I love you all.

To the guy who said something about if his seed is in a woman, he'd want a say in an abortion, I say to you:

If a man and a woman have a good, loving relationship, that would happen anyway. But there should be no law saying she must tell her husband, boyfriend, etc. Because not only is it none of the government's business, such a law would be all-inclusive. Doesn't matter if she's in an abusive relationship, or if her health is affected and she KNOWS he doesn't care, etc. etc. There are many, legitimate reasons why a woman wouldn't want to tell her husband. That said, again, in a loving relationship I too think she should. SHOULD, not MUST.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

81. Pro choice.

[stepnw1f]

82. Pro-Choice

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Right Here. PP, NARAL, etc. Was at the big march in 2004, although

fat lot of good it did.

I think people need to be allowed to make their own moral decisions about their own bodies, even if what they choose to do with their body may rub someone else the wrong way or conflict with their agenda.

Period.

Choice is not negoitiable.

:hi:

[liberaliraqvet26]

84. I am Pro Choice and an occasional escort at the clinic...

but im NOT a one issue voter. I think some of the Casey bashing has gotten bad at DU.

[MellowJazzDocent]

85. Pro Choice right here.

[Katherine Brengle]

86. It's not "man bashing"----------------->

This is a really common way of escaping an uncomfortable situation, especially one involving gender disparities.

I'm sure you a super guy, so please don't take what I am about to say as a personal attack.

Our culture is chin-deep into the idea that male is superior to female. When a woman is physically strong, she is compared to men who are physically strong. When a woman has a high-powered corporate or political career, she is "playing with the big boys." Men are held up as the standard on which all other life-forms are based, and as long as this concept persists, women will never have full citizenship in this country or in any other.

You have a penis--congratulations on that, how extraordinary. (I am sure you agree with this sarcastic comment--it is certainly no accomplishment.) But society treats you and the rest of our male citizens as though you have earned some right in this world to dominate and control, simply because you are male.

You are not a victim. You are part of the social ruling elite, even if you don't even realize it.

Until you all stand up and say, "We're not going to do this anymore. We're not going to allow our brethren to do this anymore. We are going to treat women like the independent, rational human beings that they are and stop oppressing them, stop dominating them, stop abusing them, stop relegating them to a lower social status than we enjoy. We're not going to use our power to shut them up and we're not going to use it to intimidate them anymore"---until you all stand up and say this, you are all guilty, even if you don't see it.

Pro-choice, pro-life, it doesn't matter. Regardless of what comes of the abortion debate, we (men AND women) are all in this together, and the sooner everyone realizes this, the better. All of the things you have done to help women and women's organizations are good things, and you have every right to be proud of them. But it isn't enough.

[Warren DeMontague]

123. "pro-choice, pro life, it doesn't matter"

Uh, I beg to differ.

[mondo joe]

128. And society is __% men, __% women.

As long as you perpetuate the idea that men act and women are acted upon, you feed the notion that women are hapless victims.

[RazzleDazzle]

208. And what was your excuse for South Africa during apartheid?

where the black population far outnumbered white -- was that their (black's) fault too for being at the receiving end of a huge power differential?

Political power isn't equivalent to sheer numbers, else women would NEVER have been oppressed in the first place.

[RazzleDazzle]

206. Amen, sister

Perfect.

Men have to give up some of their (white) male privilege, and most of them -- including most of the ones here (and when I say most I mean MOST, as in probably 99.99999% -- okay, maybe 99.99996%) -- simply don't want to. Hell, they don't even acknowledge it exists, and "failure to acknowledge privilege is itself abuse of privilege."

[GoneOffShore]

88. Pro choice here

Contributor to NARAL & Planned Parenthood. Voted for pro choice candidates, campaigned for Kerry, written letters to Congress critters, etc.

[dave29]

89. Delete

[SPKrazy]

90. I'm Pro Choice

But personally against abortion

But I will defend a woman's right to choose that for herself

and I won't be someone who spends their time trying to pursuade someone not to have an abortion

I am someone that if asked would gladly give my opinion.

But in the end, it is a decision between the woman, her physician, and her spiritual beliefs as to whether to have an abortion or not.

[Laelth]

93. Here.

And we need to be sympathetic today. It is not our rights that are being taken away by these anti-abortion measures.

That said, I'd ask our women DUers to take a step back and consider that women, as a whole, have gained tremendous power over the past century. In return, men have lost power. The modern Republican party gets its votes because people are reacting to this dramatic and far-reaching social change. Don't dismiss the concerns of these "whiny-men." We had better listen to them and try to recognize that their concerns are real. If we don't, we're stuck with fundinazis governing our lives for the foreseeable future.

imho

-Laelth

[UTUSN]

94. Aren't we all? n/t

[RB TexLa]

95. We are granted the same rights under Roe v. Henry Wade as women

I do not have to inform my wife of any of my medical procedures, any illness I may have diagnosed, or have her consent to have or refuse any treatment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

97. Reproductive rights is a "litmus test" for this man.

[goodboy]

100. They're not "pro-life" they're just "pro-BIRTH" and furthermore...

I support, respect, and defend the right for women to have sovreignty over their own body and mind and spirit.

[Charlie Brown]

101. Keep the gov't the hell away from my space

Pro-choice and proud of it.

[mdmc]

102. I found abortion as an issue in high school

some hot girls were pro choice.

[Ksec]

103. Im pro choice.

I want it kept safe. The dumbasses who would kill RVW will only put it in the backrooms . It wont stop abortions.

[Giant Robot]

104. How about this...

I've messed with the anti-abortion protesters outside the clinic where my sister-in-law used to work. Taunting, making jokes, and just being my obnoxious self.

Truth to tell, I don't really think men should be involved a whole lot in this debate. But for what it's worth, abortions should be safe, accessible and rare.

Condoms anyone?

[electron_blue]

117. I think we do a disservice to say "men should stay out of the debate"

We lose a lot of valuable people that way. Men, who could put up valiant fights next to the women, who stay out of it bcs they think they should stay out of it.

Meanwhile, inroads are threatened on Roe v Wade.

I used to think "men, stay out of it", but then I figured out it wasn't really about controling women. It's about controlling the lower & middle class. It's class warfare. See many other DU posts linked previously to read more.

So, men, if you're thinking of staying out bcs you think you should have no say over women's parts - please rethink the situation.

The war is proceeding anyway. And, as I said before, this is a class war, not sexist war.

[mondo joe]

126. Ridiculous. Of course men must be part of the debate.

Civil rights are issues that effect us all - even when particular outcomes don't.

[leftstreet]

136. That's like saying straight people shouldn't be involved in gay rights

We should ALL do the most we can to support the rights of ALL individuals. The system attempts to divide and conquer the interests of labor by separating us into groups, working in isolation, on what it terms as individual "issues" somehow unique to each group.

They're not "issues" - they're RIGHTS.

[Nikki Stone 1]

105. Mind Pilot, I went on clinic defenses and there were some GREAT men

who came out and helped in every way possible. They ran the gamut of backgrounds, but they were united with us in a common goal.

Glad to know you were one of them.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

106. Pro-Choice here.......

and I will not go in for a government that seeks legislate our behavior on the grounds of a moral/religious code not shared by all, as well as diminishing the standing of women within this society by removing control over their own bodies. As of this day the women of South Dakota have become second-class citizens, subject to horrors not thought possible just six short years ago.

[LuckyTheDog]

107. I am pro-choice

Not a fan of abortion. But that is a personal decision I'll never have to face and would not presume to make for another. And, let's face it, making abortion illegal does nothing in the real world except put women at risk by making it riskier.

If we want the women in our lives to choose something other than abortion, we need to be prepared to offer the time, money and commitment the mother and child need and want. The commitment of a husband or other kind of parenting partner can, of course, make motherhood a very attractive option in a lot of cases. Other times, depending on the partner ... not so much. But in the end, it's not our choice to make. All we can do is be there.

[Hailtothechimp]

113. Pro-Choice.

The alternative is not something I could live with. My two daughters deserve the freedom, when they grow up, to decide when they will become mothers.

[MinneapolisMatt]

115. Reporting for duty.

Pro-choice all the way.

Matt

[RagAss]

116. Pro Choice man here....checking in.

[Broken_Hero]

119. Pro Choice here....n/t

[Gregorian]

120. I've ended my man-bashing.

What is life without choice?

And that question is especially important for those who call themselves Christians. God gave us choice. Without choice, it isn't life.

[The Traveler]

122. Another pro-choice man here ... deal me in. (n/t)

[Aristus]

125. Pro-choice here.

Pro-choice man, pro-choice Christian.

[omega minimo]

127. Okay ya'll, can you now be Pro-Choice and Pro-Woman?

If there's this many menfolk in support of reproductive rights and privacy rights, can we use this as a stepping stone to a more balanced DU?

Can we talk about the issues without getting distracted by gender wars?

Is it necessary to open this thread with "the man-bashing is in full swing"-- (kind of a shock, given the thread title).

Can we raise the level of discussion beyond "YOU started it!" "Did NOT!" "Did TOO!" "Did NOT!" "Did TOO!"?

Can we count on you Pro-Choice, Pro-Woman men to speak up and step in if your DU sisters are under attack for being women, for raising women's issues, for presenting women's perspective-- will you be there for us as allies or antagonists?

Will you support us when the "woman-bashing is in full swing"?

:thumbsup:

[jpgray]

129. It's okay to bash men here in ways it is not okay to bash women

Understandable, since these sorts of bigoted sentiments cause the most harm when they originate from those in power. In general, that's men (though over half the US population is female). But just because it's understandable doesn't make it right. Saying someone throws like a girl causes a flamewar here, but much more virulent misandrist material goes unquestioned. It's true that misogyny is far more harmful because it has more opportunity to do damage, but sexism is bigoted and base, no matter what sex it is associated with.

[omega minimo]

141. raise level of discussion beyond "YOU started it!" "Did NOT!" "Did TOO!"

"It's okay to bash men here in ways it is not okay to bash women"

Hogwash.

"Saying someone throws like a girl causes a flamewar here, but much more virulent misandrist material goes unquestioned."

Why anyone would WANT to say "throws like a girl" and use Limbaughisms like "misandrist" on DU is questionable.

I asked:
Can we raise the level of discussion beyond "YOU started it!" "Did NOT!" "Did TOO!" "Did NOT!" "Did TOO!"?
Can we count on you Pro-Choice, Pro-Woman men to speak up and step in if your DU sisters are under attack for being women, for raising women's issues, for presenting women's perspective-- will you be there for us as allies or antagonists?
Will you support us when the "woman-bashing is in full swing"?

So far the answer to these questions is "No."

[leftstreet]

146. Yeah, yeah. I'll do it, if you go fix me a sandwich!

:rofl: :hi:

But seriously, don't say things like "step in." It perpetuates a dangerous and false notion that women are unable to protect themselves, and must rely on men, who in turn somehow reserve the right to withhold their protection.

Which is completely untrue.

ALL men and ALL women must learn to STAND TOGETHER for ALL human and civil rights!

[omega minimo]

149. How bout "step up"?

I said "speak up and step in" as in SHOW UP, show yourselves, step in to a thread (no one said "damsel in distress") when we are getting hijacked and pounded by boneheads. I ASKED if there was solidarity and whether men would "stand together" with women. We are quite able to "protect" ourselves and when we do, when we protest abuse, the threads get locked. It's a big game for some of these :puke:

[leftstreet]

151. There ya go! "Step up" is GREAT

:thumbsup:

Although I understand the reasons behind your original words, sad to say, "step in" will be interpreted differently by different types.

(Oh, and you're right, it's a big sick game that's hard to watch.) :-(

[jpgray]

150. "Sexism is bigoted and base, no matter what sex it is associated with."

I'm sorry, you read this as a refusal to stand with women against sexism and attacks on the right to choose? Could you explain to me how you read it that way?

[omega minimo]

156. Strange, addressing the questions without answering them

And the first comment an example of "you started it did not did too" so that kinda missed the point.........

"It's okay to bash men here in ways it is not okay to bash women"

Strange, this too.

"I'm sorry, you read this as a refusal to stand with women against sexism and attacks on the right to choose? Could you explain to me how you read it that way?"

Since I didn't read it that way, there is naught to explain.



The questions I asked were about more direct mutual support and if these oblique comments and challenges are an answer, that'll do.

:patriot:

[jpgray]

161. I must sadly conclude you are looking for a fight

Are you asking me not to comment on and challenge your ideas? Do you view comments and challenges as combative or hostile? I'm trying to figure out why you read my reply as a negative answer to your post.

[omega minimo]

163. You are looking in a mirror

Is a non-answer a negative answer?

Good question! :think:

Adieu! :hi:

[jpgray]

167. Says someone who runs away after posting a non-answer herself

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from, and you're trying to win an argument. I am one man making comments on your post, and you turn that into a negative answer from all men on DU. I think you're reading things into my posts that aren't there.

[omega minimo]

170. Thank you for providing an example of the sort of

topdog, mindbending obstructionist nonsense that we are frequently forced to contend with.

Your projections fall on deaf ears.

HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT! :evilgrin:

[jpgray]

172. I just wish you'd tell me what I've done

I make a few comments, and you tell me I've rejected your call for unity.

[BoneDaddy]

194. Don't waste your breath

Any inconsistency on some of these gender fascists is merely dismissed and swept under the rug or rationalized in some twised way.

There will always be extremist whackos on either end of the spectrum who simply buy into the very generalizations that they decry. They can't see their hypocrisy if it fell out of the sky and crushed them.

[omega minimo]

200. For example when called "gender fascists" "extremist whackos" "hypocrisy"

DU is this bullying OK with you?

[BoneDaddy]

222. Omega

if that is bullying, then bullying is done everyday in DU, by DUers. It is just directed at groups that we all can agree upon "bullying" such as right wingers, conservatives, anti-choice etc..

[omega minimo]

246. Never have seen those slurs here before, directed at DU women

or anywhere else.

And yes, it is bullying.

[BoneDaddy]

248. Well ...

what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If what I said can be construed as bullying then you are guilty of the same.

[omega minimo]

252. Are you 12?

:rofl:

[BoneDaddy]

255. LOL

Omega, I offered once to get past this, but you obviously don't want to.
I am done with you... you and others like you are a waste of my time.

[Warren DeMontague]

253. These are examples of Extremist Whackos at work:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/opinion/14013410.htm

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionlaw/a/sdabortionban_2.htm

http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/News/Political_Notes/2006/03/02/Down_With_Dildos_/index.shtml

I certainly wouldn't put OM in with that crowd. If you've got a point you want to make, the insults aren't gonna carry it across.

[BoneDaddy]

192. 100% agreed

I perhaps have acted with some passion in my recent responses to some (very small few, maybe 3-4) women who pretty much come out and say something to the equivilent of: MEN SUCK and they need to be ______ (fill in the blank) to earn my respect.

They need to be called on it and their misinformation corrected.

[omega minimo]

213. When the topic is "Male Dominance" you may expect discussion of

"male dominance" and not try to "male dominate" the thread.

You earn respect when you show respect.

You destroy credibility when you come in swinging.

[BoneDaddy]

223. You destroy credibility

when you make comments that are anti-male.
Ok I have to point out this dynamic. A woman makes gross, illogical, untrue statements about ALL MEN. I respond with pointing out the illogical inconsistencies and label the behavior as similar to the behavior of the fascists I fight against everyday, and you accuse me of starting it? I find that off target on so many levels.

But I would like you and I to stop the back and forth, I have heard your take on it and you have heard mine. Let's bury the hatchet, preferably not in our proverbial heads.

I will make an attempt to listen clearer if you make the attempt to keep your criticisms to descriptors such as "some" men, not all. I am quite aware that some men do the things you claim.

AS for being dominant, I only get that way when I feel it is necessary. In this case I was going to push the limit, as I believe it is important to do with this issue.

And I get that from my mother, btw hehe. She didn't take shit from anyone.

[omega minimo]

250. Individuals are not cardboard cut-out cliches or "gender nazis"

"I will make an attempt to listen clearer if you make the attempt to keep your criticisms to descriptors such as "some" men, not all. I am quite aware that some men do the things you claim."

I am already careful in my use of language regarding "some," etc. I do not accept being treated as if I have said things I have not, attacked by someone pissed off at what someone ELSE said, or spewing their pre-packaged (hostile) attitudes about generic "feminists."

The "dynamic" you "point out" was in context of a topic and relevant to it-- an aspect you continue to ignore.

We need to be able to discuss, listen, use clear terms, resist hostility, all AHEAD of time, not after all this mess.

Thank you.

[Warren DeMontague]

176. Definitions?

"Under attack for being women"- that sounds terrible. Clearly, I'll step up, step in, step on in any way that I can to raise an objection to that. But I'm not really sure what you're talking about, or where you're seeing it happening here on DU. I'll be the first to acknowledge that there's a lot of threads here-- and I usually don't have time to look at more than a small slice. Links are always appreciated, as are examples.

"for raising women's issues"-- Well, personally, I think reproductive choice is a human rights, privacy, and personal self-determination issue, but certainly, as we've been reminded repeatedly, it's a 'womans issue' as well- because women are the ones who get pregnant, so clearly the laws will affect womens bodies. I certainly don't think anyone objects to choice being raised as an issue. Hell, I'd say DU-as-a-whole is pretty pissed off about these asinine laws that are being passed right now- and rightly so.

So what, other, women's issues are you talking about? Breast cancer? Equal pay for equal work? Leaving the toilet seat up? (just kidding, there :hi:) I'm wracking my brain to think of 'women's issues' that can't be presented here without drawing significant or even marginal critical commetary or dissent (which are not, as you are well aware, always synonymous with 'attack'.) What other 'women's issues' didja have in mind? (Specifics are, like always, wonderfully appreciated)

...And --this is a legitimate question, IMHO-- are the issues and 'perspective' you speak of indicative of the views of ALL women and ALL women on DU? Do they represent notions -like the notion that women should have the right to choose- that just about all of DU agrees with? Or are they the very earnest but by no means universal opinions about a range of things held by one particular ideological corner around here?

Again, that's not an 'attack'- it's just asking for some clarification.

Lastly, we all see these issues through our own lenses- personally, I don't believe any "bashing", ---man, woman, or otherwise affiliated--- is appropriate on this board, and thank the flying spaghetti monster we've been graced with an alert button. But since I see the fight for reproductive rights as not just a 'woman's issue' but also an issue of the right of INDIVIDUALS to control their own bodies, I certainly am going to offer a spirited dissent to anyone who tries to argue -for whatever reason, in whatever context, backed up by whatever strain of ideology- that there is some justification to tell other people, particularly consenting adults, what they may or may not do with their own bodies- no matter how much they may 'not like' the choices those people make for themselves.

Hopefully, I can count on you to step up and support that struggle, too.

[omega minimo]

217. Start right here

:think:



"Hopefully, I can count on you to step up and support that struggle, too."

And although you write as if we have never conversed (and quite recently), you already know the answer to that.

[Warren DeMontague]

245. Then I hope you'll please excuse my rhetorical flourish.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

:thumbsup:

[BoneDaddy]

195. I agree

But if you did a small bit of research on the topic, it was initiated by women with such an anti male bias in their posts that I had to read it several times to make sure I was in the right "progressive liberal" message board.

If you want it to stop, when you see a blatant attack on the totality of men, they YOU should step in, in the same way that I would if I witnessed misogyny.

I would love to have an enlightened, serious, non-attacking discussion on it, but when it is initiated in such a hateful way, I am not about to step off. Sorry.

I would, however, like to work towards healing some of the gender wounds, but don't think I will simply bow out when I see some of the utter crap I see by a very small number of women in here who have nothing more than an axe to grind.

[omega minimo]

214. Try listening without defensiveness

"I would, however, like to work towards healing some of the gender wounds..."

[BoneDaddy]

221. I hear ya

That is the ideal and will attempt to work at it, as we are all works in progress, I just ask the same in return.

Omega, let you and I start fresh and begin anew please. We most likely agree on 99.9 % of things,it is quite foolish for us both to continue this. Thanks

[FiveGoodMen]

132. Decidedly pro-choice male, here.

[kentuck]

138. I am pro-choice not because I am "pro-abortion" but because....

I believe women are equal to men. I have believed this since I was a very young child. It is a constitutional issue before it is a religious or a personal issue with me. It is the forest - not just a tree. We must fight the abortion issue from another hillside, in my opinion. Women are not subservient to men or the laws that men might pass - if those laws make them less of a person than a man himself.

[progressoid]

139. Me too.

I've donated more to PP & NARL than my wife. Wish I could afford more.

[Blue_Tires]

140. pro-choice here as well

ttt!

[PatrioticLeftie]

142. Another pro-choice male

I'm getting sick to death of all the sexism

[johnaries]

143. it should be between the woman and her doctor.

The government and the curches need to butt out!

[Yupster]

160. And if the doctor is pro-life, then

he/she needs to step aside too.

It really is not between a woman and anyone.

It's a woman's right to choose.

[Stinky The Clown]

144. Pro choice here, too

[The_Casual_Observer]

148. It's none of my business what a woman wants to do about reproduction

[liberaltrucker]

152. LT here, and pro-choice

As a human being without a uterus, I have no moral right to dictate
to those who have one what to do with it.

[Pachamama]

153. Best Answer I ever heard from a Man on this topic:

"I respect Women and respect and trust them to make the right decision. It is not my place to judge or to make that difficult decision that only they can make for themselves. And because I respect women and trust them so much, I know that they will do what is right".

[donheld]

154. Totally pro-choice here

:hi:

[RandomKoolzip]

155. OF COURSE I'm Pro-Choice.

Checking in! :hi:


As an aside: a lot of the "man-bashing" that occurs here is totally understandable by me at least, since it fuckin' sucks to have to be the half of humanity that carries the heaviest burden for the least reward.

[jpgray]

162. I agree it's understandable, but I don't think it's right

[RandomKoolzip]

166. There have been times when I've thought it pretty harsh.

And I've held my tongue about certain very anti-male sentiment I've seen here. Certainly, some of the more radical anti-male posters are allowed to spew some pretty awful offal without riposte. (And hands off my porn, please.)

But the truth is that women's rights are in danger right now, and picking a fight about semantics and selective misandry seems like a kind of a back-burner sorta phenomenon, nez say pah? Mile-walking in others's shoes and all that jazz....

I guess I'm saying that the whole South Dakota law has made me want to seek some common ground, and I cannot fault the women of DU for feeling like they're under attack.

[jpgray]

168. Absolutely

I would never raise the issue anywhere but in a forum of ostensible progressives. I believe that with an infinitesimal number of exceptions we are all on board for women's rights and gender equality. Only in a place where these are givens would I raise the issue of sexism that targets men. In general society it would be a curious use of my energy, but here I feel it needs to be brought up and yelled about wherever it appears. It's the same reason I barge into "all Republicans are fucknozzles" or "people from region x are dumbasses" threads--in general society that kind of prejudice wouldn't be worth my time, but since we are free of most of the serious discrimination issues here, I'd like to draw attention to and stamp out what few we have left.

[BoneDaddy]

196. The heaviest burden?

That is a matter of perspective. It is a statistical fact that men die alot younger than women, doesn't seem to be a light burden there. I think many women think that men simply have it sooo easy and that life is just handed to us. That couldn't be farther from the truth and if some people took the time to walk in someone or some other gender's shoes, perhaps we would walk away with a new, fresh, enlightened perspective.

It is because I put myself in women's shoes that I have the level of support for their rise to equality and ownership of their bodies. I just ask that you do the same. These mass generalizations about gender are killing the chance for us to really learn about each other.

[RandomKoolzip]

198. Well, BEING a man, I can tell you that no, MY life has not

been easy. But at the same time, more men need to realize how they benefit (even in little ways) from simply being male, benefits that do not extend to women (on the whole; case-by-case might be a different story). Most men don't have to deal with paternalism or condescension, the "oh, you're too cute to be using such big words!" attitude that women face all the time. How would you like to go through life knowing that half the population might not be taking you seriously? Most men don't know how it feels to walk down the street and be objectified, or to be judged solely on one's looks and not on one's merit. Women have still not acheived parity with men in terms of income, in terms of success, in terms of health care (Viagra plentiful and cheap, abortion about to become illegal: ain't that a kick in the head?), etc.

Of course, it's only natural for men to get defensive about stuff like this. "Well, I've had it rough and *I*'m not passing laws that oppress women!" That's true, and that's why the SD law is so very important. The mere fact that this opens the floodgates for a whole new raft of laws that target women ought to be enough for most men to get on board fully with women's rights. Like jpgray said above, we (dudes) take it as a given that liberal men support women's rights. But do liberal women take that as a given? We need to show it more, be vocal and involved, and need to give women unconditional support now that Roe is in serious jeaopardy, even if that means holding our tongues when a female DUer rants and raves.

I'm sure several DUers, and a lot of women, have relatives old enough to remember stories about women's sufferage. Realizing how recently it's been since women have even been allowed to vote, and realizing that now the right wants to make them second class citizens again scares the hell out of me.

[BoneDaddy]

199. agreed

I recognize the damaging effects of patriarchy, misogyny and inequality, that is why I am a liberal progressive, when it could be so easy for me, being a white male, to simply jump on dominant cultural factor issue of white male privlege.
My point was never to denigrate the women's perspective as I recognize and do not disagree with the facts of gender bias. I only ask that the same thing be done in reverse and we get away from this kindergarten mentality of making all or none statements that simply are not true, nor are they productive in healing whatever wounds exist between men and women.

[Kurovski]

158. Me.

Donated to NOW for years.

Worked hard to toss Alito.

Accompanied two Friends to the clinic, and stuck with them in the days after.

[gordontron]

159. hello

I think abortion should be avoided, but definately available.

[cboy4]

164. TOTALLY pro choice

Fuck South Dakota!!!!!!

[WCGreen]

165. Here I am........

[farmboxer]

169. I am pro-choice

I am pro-choice and always have been.

[sutz12]

171. I don't have your creds but I'm pro choice

I had to be, when my daughter asked for one. I'm proud of the fact that I maintained my cool and gave her a hug and let it happen.

Abortion is an emotional trauma that can be recovered from. Being forced to give birth against one's will can be a life destroying event.

But then, I've always been pro choice. It's not for me to force my opinions or my morality on others.

[DarkTirade]

174. No credentials here...

but I'm of the firm opinion that even people WITH a womb have no right to tell other women what they can and can't do with theirs, let alone people without one.

[Pushed To The Left]

175. I'm definitely pro-choice

I have done phone-banking at Planned Parenthood to battle Prop 73 and to fight Alito's nomination.

[VOX]

177. Absolutely pro-choice.

A woman's body and her reproductive rights belong to her, and no one else.

The government and the church (and the lines are certainly blurred between the two these days) have no business trying to legislate their so-called "morality."

For what it's worth, I'm a NARAL and PP donor, as is my wife.

[mogster]

179. I'm pro-choice and support feminism

I don't mind being man-bashed either. At least not today :P

[DIKB]

185. Pro-Choice and DAMN PROUD OF IT !!!

A woman's rights are just those, HER RIGHTS.

Right to choose, right to freedom from oppression, freedom from religious persecution, and from the tyranny of men. A lot of women go through their own personal hell, making this decision, but it's something that NEEDS to be there, and we have NO RIGHT to take it away from them.

[michreject]

186. I'm a man

It's not my body nor my decision.

Pro choice.

[BoneDaddy]

187. Signing in

I have spent 16 years counseling youth in the both the public and private sector. During that time I have counseled and supported young women who became pregnant on numerous occasions. I have worked in conjunction with women's groups, shelters, planned parenthood to give the young woman access to safe, afordable family planning. Some have opted for abortion some opted to carry to term. Either decision was supported with compassion, patience and tolerance.

My wife and I give to Planned Parenthood as our charity of choice as well and have participated in fund raisers and educational presentations. We are both members of the ACLU and will fight like hell if they go after Roe v Wade.

And people wonder when the male bashing starts why I get so fucking pissed.

[Le Taz Hot]

190. Woah, there!

There were plenty of us women who defended you guys in those threads as well. Are you now guilty of what you are accusing others of -- painting with a broad stroke?

[BoneDaddy]

197. agreed

And thanks so much for your support.

[ProfessorGAC]

193. I'm Pro-Choice On Everything!

Too much restriction on personal freedom is the ultimate governmental evil, IMO.
The Professor

[Walt Starr]

201. Pro-choice man checking in n/t

[RazzleDazzle]

202. Utterly amazing, probably predictable -- why am I surprised?

This purportedly pro-Choice, pro-woman thread starts out this way:

DU pro-choice men, check in!! The man-bashing is in full swing today; (and the whining goes on from there)


You poor things. My GAWD, My GAWD, how awful for you. Women are getting the rights to ownership of and soveriegnty over their own bodies taken away from us, but YOU -- my GAWD how awful -- YOU are getting bashed (or so you imagine).

Is there no justice in the world? DAMN those man-bashing women anyway.

Pathetic, just fucking pathetic.

Time to revisit this thread and article:
Men Working to End Male Dominance
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x592585
Link: http://www.carolmoore.net/sfm/vs-dominance.html

Most especially, these spring to mind (from the article):

More often than not, men are the ones dominating group activity. Such behavior is therefore termed a “masculine behavior pattern,” not because women never act that way, but because it is generally men who do.

The following are some of the more common problems to become aware of:

Hogging the show. Talking too much, too long, too loud.
snip

Defensiveness. Responding to every contrary opinion as though it were a personal attack.
snip

Attention seeking. Using all sort of dramatics to get the spotlight. (Also see Focus Transfer below)

Task and content focus. To the exclusion of nurturing individuals or the group through attention to process and form.

Put downs and one-up-manship. snip “How can you possibly say that...?”

Negativism. Finding something wrong or problematical in everything.

Focus transfer. Transferring the focus of the discussion to one’s own pet issues (like MOI!!! MOI!! always MOI!! Hey! I'm a man and I don't get enough attention -- and I especially don't get enough praise and thanks for what I have done. You mean women are ignoring MOI!!!!)...

snip (and maybe some of the others listed in the article as well...)

[TahitiNut]

203. Yep. We should "take it like a man," right?

:eyes: :puke:

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

212. Define Whining

I think you'll find that posts like mine, and the earlier one replying to the OP by TahitiNut contain no whining whatsoever.

Broadbrushes are useless tools in the hands of anybody using it.
The Professor

[MindPilot]

236. Thanks for making my point for me.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

249. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

256. What a bunch of bullshit

I'd like to see what statistical proof they have that it is "generally men who do" engage in hogging the show, being defensive, negativism, focus transfer, etc....

I've been in classrooms, focus groups, work and study projects, so on and so forth. Anyone who thinks that there aren't as many women who engage in the same behavior as men do need to get out of whatever lab or library they hide in and get some sun.

[IronLionZion]

204. Safe, Legal, and Rare

pro-choice pro-life Democrat checking in, because life is precious after birth too.

[apnu]

211. Checking in!

I'm pro-choice, I'm male, I'm proud of my position. My family donates to NARL and NOW.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

215. After reading all the man basing posts, Im ashamed to have a Penis

Ok not really, but I thought that sounded funny.

Actually Im quite attached to it

:) :)

[Bake]

216. Man here. Have daughters. Pro choice.

That's all.

Bake

[Orsino]

218. I am a pro-choice man.

Someday, when sex education is taken seriously, when adoption is easy and when women enjoy an equal voice in government, we can talk about limiting abortion in the third trimester...maybe. When the forces who would deny an abortion are made responsible for raising the resultant child. When all God's chillun got shoes.

Until then, the owner of the womb makes the rules, as far as I'm concerned. I take the responsibility of parenthood so seriously that I would deny any other people the right to force it onto a prospective mother and father.

[populistdriven]

220. I am Pro-Women

I don't understand guys that feel they need to control women ???

[Ufomammut]

225. Pro choice

Tis a no-brainer; keep Big Brother out and away from reproduction.

Aside from being a compoenent to their "family values" propaganda, a key to the right's insistence upon "pro" life is simple - they would prefer women to be brood mares for the state. Conservatives need live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Period.

[sakabatou]

226. I am pro-choice

... HOLY CRAP! IT'S THE JEUS POLICE! :yoiks:

[PleadTheFirst]

227. Staunchly Pro-Choice man here.

What right would I have to tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her body?

[Zhade]

229. Yo.

NT!

[Taverner]

230. Pro-choice, but it's not "man bashing"

I've noticed its red-state dems who are rightfully worried and blue-staters who don't see the big iceberg our ship is crashing into.

[lukasahero]

237. Way to go Taverner

Thanks for understanding that much of the ranting and raving is just out of frustration and real fear and NOT directed at the pro-choice guys. :yourock:

[Krist]

233. I dont care

I dont care about abortion.

[maveric]

238. maveric checking in.

If men were the ones who got pregnant, abortion would be legal everywhere in the US.

[mikeytherat]

239. Your body, your choice.

I can't have a baby, don't have to carry it, birth it.

YOU get to decide, not me.

mikey_the_rat

[truebrit71]

240. 100% Pro-choice. If fellas got pregnant choice would be a constitutionally

..guaranteed right...

[GliderGuider]

242. Yo!

Absolutely, utterly, 100% pro-choice here. I come from a family with four generations of activist pro-choice women, so it was mother's milk to me (so to speak). I actually take a very hard-line position: All abortions up to the moment of birth are a decision that should remain between the woman and her doctor, and any other men including the impregnator shouldn't get to say squat about it one way or the other unless invited to do so by the woman. It's her body, it's her decision.

[slackmaster]

243. Have donated to Emily's List and NARAL

Sorry to be "difficult" but I rarely see anything in black or white. I consider myself a pro-choice leaning moderate.

The fight will never end. Roe v Wade is a workable truce. The law ain't broke.

[puerco-bellies]

247. Check.. n/t

[leftofthedial]

251. why do I need to "check in"?

After 45 years, I don't have to "audition."

[Warren DeMontague]

257. Because otherwise, the front desk may give someone else

your room.

[SeattleRob]

258. pro choice here....

I think it all boils down to the question of whether a woman has the right to control her body. I say, yes.

[MadisonProgressive]

259. I am staunchly pro-choice

[bullwinkle428]

265. Pro-choice now...pro-choice forever!!

[EstimatedProphet]

262. I am pro-Choice. That's that.

[Maestro]

264. Pro-choice

Pro-sex ed in schools (abstinence is a joke!)
Pro multicultural
Anti-bigotry

[Texasgal]

266. I SUPPORT YOU PROGRESSIVE MEN!!

THANK YOU for your understanding and support!