spoke to a friend regarding her Marine nephew in Iraq

[redwitch]

Friend is former air force. I just spoke to her about her nephew whom she loves dearly and is very proud of- and he is proud to serve his country. He told her when he was home around Christmas he likes the Iraqi people very much and wishes he could do more to help. She then asked him if what he is doing there will matter in the long run if we pull out next week, next year or in ten years. He sadly shook his head. Neither he nor any of his comrades are under any sort of delusion about it. When we leave, Iraq will become a bloodbath. The thing is,we all see it going that way WITH our troops there. It is absolutely sinful and criminal and appalling and I don't even have the words today. We have destroyed another country. I actually think they were better off with Saddam Hussein in charge. That's how badly we have fucked up.

[Sammy Pepys]

1. I don't think they were better off with Saddam....

...but that's not to say everything is rainbows and puppy dogs now.

[Jacobin]

5. I do.

We WERE far better off with him in charge. He was no worse than a dozen other tin pot dictators and we have out-tortured and out-destroyed infrastucture and out-murdered Iraqis by far.

The oil was flowing and the tribal factions who want to kill each other were kept in check.

We are not able to do either.

I predicted when this war started that we would wish Saddam was back in power in two years. So far, only Imus has made that observation, only half in jest.

[Sammy Pepys]

9. Well, I'm not talking about "WE"...

We WERE far better off with him in charge.

I'm talking about the people that actually had to deal with the inconvenience of living under him in Iraq.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. You mean like the young women who attended the university

in Baghdad under Saddam, who today can't leave the house without a male relative?

Things under Saddam were not good, but there were not a hundred people a day getting blown up of gunned down under his reign. Things were not good, but the electricity was on for more than 4 hours a day. Things were not good, but the water flowed more than every third day. Things were not good, but Shia and Sunni were not blowing up each others' mosques. Things were not good, but Christian Iraqis were left in peace and even held positions in the government.

Yes, he led them into two disastrous wars, before we invaded in 2003, but only because he had our approval and support -- if we had not supported it, he would not have attacked Iran; if we had not indicated our tacit approval, he would not have attacked Kuwait.

He was a far less bloody dictator than many we made no move to stop - Mugabe and Amin come to mind. When we hated the communists, he cracked down on the communists in his country. When we hated the Iranian mullahs, he started a war against the Iranian mullahs.

He was us.

[immoderate]

31. Bill Mahar said it too.

--IMM

[atreides1]

7. It depends on how you look at it

The people had electricity, running water, garbage pick-up, woman and girls could attend school without being attacked by religious zealots, it wasn't all great but at least it was better then what they have now.

[Sammy Pepys]

12. We've got all that now, too...

Should we give up impeaching Bush?

[redwitch]

16. I don't really see the point of that statement.

Bush should be impeached. What say we get the Chinese to do it? They can invade and occupy the US, set up checkpoints, take over the prisons, the power sources, the newspapers can be full of their propaganda...

[Sammy Pepys]

19. The point is...

...if having running water and electricity and such are good enough reasons to bring a guy like Saddam back into power, than why bother getting rid of Bush? By those standards, we've got ourselves the next freakin' George Washington. Impeaching him would be ridiculous.

[redwitch]

21. One more time Sammy: NO ONE IS SUGGESTING BRINGING SADDAM BACK

n/t

[Sammy Pepys]

25. I KNOW

THE PROBLEM IS THE LEVEL OF DEFERENCE HE SEEMS TO BE GETTING HERE.

"Oh, people had running water and electricity, so Saddam couldn't have been all that bad." That ranks up there as some of the most ridiculous rubbish I've ever heard in my life.

[Bandit]

38. Why do you think Bush 1 decided to leave him in power?

If he was even half as bad as you seem to think why did we leave him in power in 1991? Because we thought the country would quickly deteriorate into Civil War and become a complete mess. Guess what has happened? Saddam is probably no worse than Bush* as far as the brutality that has occured under his watch..It is a fact that Iraq was a Secular Government and the most Westernized of all Mideast/Arabic countries. Saddam was our friend for more than a decade while he was supposedly doing all his evil. In fact we provided weapons of the worst sort for him. But why recognize the truth when the propaganda is so much more fun????

[redwitch]

8. Saddam is a rotten son of a bitch as were his sons

and all the thugs who propped him up and were responsible for the misery of his regime. But what have we done for them that makes their lives better?
Unending civil war?
Infrastructure crumbling?
No dependable electricity or running water?

[Sammy Pepys]

10. I didn't say we had made their lives better...

But I don't think wishing Saddam back into power is going to significantly improve their current situation. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

[redwitch]

13. I don't wish him back into power

And I have absolutely no idea how to improve their lives now. Nada. Zip. You have an idea or two you're holding back? I'd like to hear them.

[Sammy Pepys]

17. No, I don't...

But how we're trying to do it now is definitely not working, and bringin Saddam back is just ludicrous. Those are two ideas that certainly won't work.

[redwitch]

18. No one has suggested bringing back Saddam.

Clearly that is not an option. :eyes:

[Sammy Pepys]

20. Yeah, but everyone sure is rushing to his defense...

saying Iraq would be better with him there. I don't know what to think of that, especially considering the guy we've got in the White House.

[redwitch]

24. No one here likes Saddam. No one is rushing to his defense.

He was horrible. All I am suggesting is that I see nothing but misery and civil war in Iraq's future- and we caused it.

[Sammy Pepys]

26. Have you been reading any of the other responses in this thread? n/t

...

[Maru Kitteh]

32. Your reply was to the OP who never suggested bringing Saddam back besides

which such a scenario is clearly not possible. Arguing against that which is not possible seems pointless.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

14. Hmmmm. The Iraqi people could walk the streets of Baghdad....

...with no fear of being killed, Iraqis worshipped in peace at the church, synagogue, or mosque of their choice, electricity was present in every home and business, running water was present in every home and business, and healthcare was as good as it could be considering the fact that our sanctions kept the Iraqis from getting the medicines they needed.

Even before the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, some of us knew for a fact that there were no WMDs in that country, no connections to Al Qaeda, no mass graves except those of Iranians who had died during the Iraq-Iran War, and absolutely no intent to invade any neighboring countries. To top it all off, the story that circulated about Saddam gassing his own people has also proven to be false...the gas used was used only by Iran at the time those people were killed.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone in their right mind can believe that Iraq is better off now than they were under Saddam. Most of that country currently has no electricity, no water, and very little incoming food supplies. The Iraqis are afraid to go anywhere in their own country, even to work or school. Medical supplies and personnel are in very short supply.

[Laelth]

41. I think the Iraqi people WERE better off under Saddam.

That's my opinion. You are, of course, entitled to yours.

-Laelth

[MadMaddie]

2. That's what Pat Buchanan said the other day....

I don't listen to him often...I was passing by...

He said as despicable as Saddam was it was his tyranny that held that country together.

The * Cabal was warned and they "broke international law" by going into Iraq....

Our soldiers deaths should be included in the death toll when he is proscecuted by the Hague!!

[bobbieinok]

23. also said of Tito...'it was his iron control that kept the peoples of

Yugoslavia from slaughtering each other'

[atreides1]

3. They had stability

And people were employed, had water, electricity, no drive by shootings, no kidnappings, and no religious zealots making the rules.

Now since the US invasion the people of Iraq suffer more then they did.

But Saddam was still an evil man, just like George Bush!!!!!

[IsItJustMe]

4. Saddam was an SOB, but he was their SOB

[RC]

33. No, Saddam was OUR SOB. We, the United States put him in charge.

He had a job to do and he did it as long as he was able. This merry gang of criminals in charge her now set him up to maintain stability in Iraq. And that he did. We took him out and things have been going down hill ever since.

[IsItJustMe]

42. I stand corrected. I forgot about that.

[MasonJar]

6. Who are we to say they were not better off? All those now dead

children (who should have been alive another 80+ years) are certainly not better off. Neither are their dead and/or maimed relatives.

[bluerum]

11. Saddam is a sadistic bastard - but he kept control in the country.

Whether Iraq is better off now than it was 5 years ago is kind of a subjective question. I think in some ways it is, but in many others it is not.

I suppose one could say that the country has a chance for a future now. This is the thing that should give the people that are suffering under the current state of affairs in Iraq some hope - what will it be like in 5 or 10 years? Will Iraq recover?

Certainly the dead and injured leave painful memories - the economy is in ruins - the country is occupied - there is street fighting amongst religious and political factions - there are snipers on the streets - military checkpoints are everywhere - being tortured in jail or prison is SOP; just a different gang doing it - POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS ARE COMMONPLACE.

How do you justify saying that Iraqi's are better off? Its seems to me that the main reason for saying that is that Saddam and his government (some of them) are in jail and his sons are dead. You may not agree with his politics and methods but people could walk the streets.

[wakeme2008]

15. The ppl there was much better off under Saddam

they had water, electric and women were treated much better than in places like Saudi.

[Kashka-Kat]

22. better off/ worse off -- why even go there

Somewhere I read an article (wish I could lay my hands on it) written by young Iraqi man who said that almost certainly his generation would've overthrown Saddam themselves and established a true democracy. Because Saddam had forced women out of burkas and into the workforce, for the children of these women, equality and western style democracy was not such a stretch as it might be for the more traditional islamic places.

By our actions the US has delayed the progression to self-determination indefinitely--at least a generation. Those d*mn bases you know are going to be there at least until the oil dries up. That to me is the ultimate tragedy of this debacle.

[MadMaddie]

28. I agree...it wasn't our business.....to go there...

The US is going to get kicked out just like the British did...those bases will be destroyed....they don't want us there....

[Minnesota Libra]

27. Saddam and his sons were cruel and sadistic BUT THEY WERE ALSO......

....religiously much more liberal than many of the other muslim countries in the area. Yes, this whole Iraq thing has been a MAJOR screw up that we will be paying the price for the next 50 to 100 years from now. Those people ADO NOT FORGET or FORGIVE esily.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

35. Who we gonna believe? Tobias, or our lying eyes?

QUOTE:
"But take a stroll down any Shia' or Kurdish slum in Iraq,
and 95% will tell you they are better off now."

Where did you get this so-called "fact", tobiascore?
Not even B*shCabal™ itself is making such preposterous assertations these days.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

39. Yes, and I asked you what those 'sources' were.

And I am still waiting for an answer.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maru Kitteh]

30. I hope her Nephew gets out of there before he learns to hate them

because that's what war does. I hope he comes home soon and gets help if he needs it. God bless him for his service and his obviously kind heart. :patriot: :hug:

[redwitch]

34. I agree.

My friend was so sad when I spoke to her about him. She is very afraid for him, the job he does is very dangerous. And you are a sweetie to think of him, I will tell her. :hug: