No shame, no regret. My abortion story.

[Skinner]

I really admire all the women here on DU who have posted to share their personal experiences with abortion. It is not easy to share something so personal in such a public way, particularly when the subject matter is still so controversial.

To honor all of you, I would like to briefly share my own personal experience with abortion. To be honest, there isn't really much to tell. My experience is not nearly as compelling as the others that have been posted here on DU. And my contribution to this story is very, very small. But it's the only abortion story I have.

Because of the personal nature of this issue, I do not think it is appropriate for me to share any names, dates, places, or any other identifying information.

A good friend of mine faced an unwanted pregnancy. She had only been dating this guy for a short time, the relationship was going nowhere. The guy -- I hesitate to use the word "father" -- never even knew that there was a pregnancy. For my friend, the decision to terminate the pregnancy was terrible. I was not involved in the decision, but I do know that she had to deal with intense feelings of guilt and sadness. But I have no doubt that she made the right choice.

As I said, my contribution to this story is very small. All I did was what I was asked to do. She needed someone to pick her up from the clinic and drive her home. That's what I did. It was only a five or ten minute drive. We didn't talk much. I asked her if she was okay. She cried the entire way home. She thanked me for the ride. That's all.

Since South Dakota passed a law banning virtually all abortions, I have thought a lot about my friend and the terrible decision that she faced. I admire her so much for her strength and her courage. And I am still deeply touched and proud that she trusted me to help her out in some small way on that day. I am not ashamed or embarrassed of what I did or what she did.

Among those of us who are pro-choice, it seems pretty common for abortion to be described using terms like "a necessary evil" or something like that. I understand that many people feel that way, and I understand that there is PR value in this type of framing. But I refuse to believe that what my friend did -- or what I did -- was in any way evil. My friend is a good person, a deeply moral person, and the choice that she made was right. When she faced that crisis, she showed much more courage and strength than I ever have.

[Hissyspit]

1. Wow, thanks for sharing that.

The little you did was actually A LOT. Being able to get to and from the clinic - the logistics - even today is a big deal. And to have a supportive friend there with you, I would imagine, is very important, as well.

[stop the bleeding]

2. thanks Skinner

these types of stories are good for DU and the general population

[EwokMyWeewok]

3. everyone needs to relax

these cases will likely be shut down by federal review in all circumstances within a short period of time, cementing roe as a precedent.

the nazis tried hard but theyre not going to win this one. even if it goes before the supreme court.

[Texasgal]

8. Relax?

Are you kidding?

No way am I going to RELAX! When this type of thing is brought to the forefront I am going to fight like hell to keep the governments HANDS OFF MY BODY!

Please, don't tell me to RELAX!

[VelmaD]

13. Don't you know...

we don't have to worry our pretty little heads about it. "They'll NEVER actually outlaw abortion...they need it as a wedge issue...blah blah blah blah blah" :eyes:

[Taverner]

83. Right on TG and Velma

I think all us men here need to realize that abortion is not a "women's" issue - it's a fucking human rights issue.

And to take it to a scary extreme - once the state has control of your body (the legal crux of RvWade - privacy of ones body) where do they stop?

I don't think people here realize what a fucking landmark case RvWade is - it goes beyond abortion. Beyond women's rights.

[xultar]

14. OK I think there needs to be a Check-yo-self b4 U Wreck yo-self

right here.

[Greyhound]

17. Of course, it could never happen here!?!

Where have you been for the last six years? (for the truly dense, the subject line is sarcasm)

[katinmn]

22. Have you looked at the make up of the Supreme Court lately?

[TahitiNut]

26. That's a little like telling a victim of torture to 'relax' ...

... after all, they don't want to kill the victim since they need him to get information. Since when is it "better" that human reproductive rights are used as a chip in the game of power politics? For those of us who're old enough to remember as adults the days of coathanger and backalley abortions, such a sanguine attitude seems separated from a reality we know.

[KitchenWitch]

36. I will relax when I am dead

First they are coming after abortion, next it will be all forms of contraception. It is about controlling women, plain and simple. And I will NOT be controlled.

[central scrutinizer]

103. what good does it do if abortion is legal if there are no clinics?

While we have been "relaxing" and telling ourselves that it couldn't happen here, the right wingers have harrassed doctors to the point where abortion clinics are increasingly hard to find. Doesn't one state (Mississippi?) only have ONE clinic in the whole state that performs abortions? Imagine you are a poor woman living 200 miles away.

[Kerrytravelers]

147. Yes, I'll just relax as women are once again regulated to second class

citizens. I'll make sure to relax when minorities are forced to the back of them bus again. I'll relax when states pass anti-gay laws and homosexuals are rounded up and arrested. I'll relax as the Ten Commandments become the law od the land and the Constitution is replaced by the Bible.

Yep. Let me relax. None of this would ever happen.

[Texasgal]

4. Wow... great story!

I too had an abortion 19 years ago. Being a young girl getting ready to enter college, I felt it was the best choice at the time. I have no regrets.

Thank you for sharing your powerful story Skinner.

[Caoimhe]

When I'm dead I plan on haunting pukes

I think it would be a kick! :evilgrin:

*on edit* and once again I prove I can't put my reply in it's intended spot. argh

[Dhalgren]

5. Thanks Skinner...

[stepnw1f]

6. Kudos Skinner.... (nt)

[MissB]

7. Of course it was the right decision for her.

Shame on anyone who tries to make her feel differently.

[TahitiNut]

9. Being male and offering a "safe place" is one of those small heroisms

... that go largely unnoticed, but is very essential in being human. Kudos. Being 'in service' to another human being is what it's all about - something we don't learn in school.

[AzDar]

10. WHEN are they going to GET it? Whether it offends the Fundies

of Any Higher Power or not...MY body is MY business.
End of story.

[VelmaD]

11. Thank you for putting words to something...

I've been trying to say for a while. I'm sick and tired of heaing pro-choice people refer to abortion that way as well. I'm tired of it being portrayed even by our allies in harshly negative terms. It only aids the forces that want to outlaw all abortion.

[xultar]

12. Thanks Skinner, Hearing these voices makes me feel so much better

about my decision 10 years ago. I shared in the first thread. I'd always carried it with me and knew deep down that many other women also carried their decisions with them. But some how, I still felt alone.

I don't feel alone anymore.

That is why I love all of you here @ Democratic Underground.

We also need to fight for women who do not have the choice to make in SD and possibly MS and the rest of the US.

On this issue. I will fight tooth and nail. There aren't many issues for which I'm willing to get down and dirty. THIS ONE IS IT! Look out FUNDIES. THIS SISTAH IS READY TO RUMBLE!

[Jacobin]

15. I'm old enough to remember when it was illegal

I have helped two women through their experience in much the same way you have. It was very hard for them both, but the decision was right for them. It was their decision to make, NOT the decision of the state, and that is the crux of the matter for me.

As a man, I cannot fathom the idea that the government is going to prohibit a woman from dealing with matters so utterly personal from making her own choice, and so potentially devastating to her life, and require that they turn their bodies over to the state to be involuntary breeders for some political agenda.

It is beyond sad that we have gone back so far in time on this issue.

[wryter2000]

47. When it was illegal

I got pregnant on my first sexual encounter ever, when I was 17. Abortion wasn't legal anywhere in this country. I ended up having to go to Japan for an abortion. Because of the cost of the airfare, I had to go alone at 17 to another country, find a clinic, have it done, and come back to the East Coast. Still, I was lucky because I could scrounge up the money and I had excellent care (from a Johns Hopkins graduate doctor).

Skinner, it would have helped me tremendously to have a sympathetic person greet me at Kennedy airport and drive me home to CT.

[Caoimhe]

55. Wow that had to be so scary

for a kid! How did you pay for it? Did your parents know?

I heard a radio interview with a woman in Washington State who was talking about how pre-Roe v Wade and pre-Washington state law defining abortion as a right, there was a 747 (maybe more than one) that would go to Japan every Friday, full of scared, pregnant young women seeking an abortion. They came from all over the West. The plane would take off Friday evening and come back Sunday morning, full of the same girls and women. It goes to show also that if you have the money, you can find a way. Girls in poverty would probably never be able to come up with the money. Amazing, that is what these RW idiots are trying to push us back to.

[wryter2000]

63. I told my stepmother

My mother had died years before. I didn't want to tell my father, but I managed to tell my stepmother. She got the money for the plane ticket somehow. I have no idea what she told my father. He and I never discussed it.

We didn't have a bad relationship. It just wasn't something I wanted to tell him about.

Yes, it was scary. Luckily, many people in Tokyo spoke English, and the doctor certainly did (Johns Hopkins). I had a much easier time that other girls I knew who got abortions.

What most younger folks don't think of is that back then, it wasn't easy to get birth control, either. Planned Parenthood gave birth control to unmarried girls, but private doctors didn't (or they would after a stern lecture -- what wants that at 17?) When I did get pills, I used to wear gloves to the pharmacy to pick them up so the pharmacist wouldn't see the lack of a wedding ring. Condoms were kept behind the counter, so you had to ask the pharmacist for them. Foam hadn't been invented.

For all the sanctimonious anti-abortion types who are okay with birth control, I say, "Watch these bastards, because they'll go for birth control next." I can almost find it in my heart to be glad when they have to face an unwanted pregnancy. I'm that angry about this.

[Mad_Dem_X]

62. Oh, my goodness

And this is what we'll be going back to, if the fundies get their way. This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. So much for the "land of the free," eh?

[Carni]

79. I was even treated like crap when I had a miscarriage!

It's a long boring tale but when I miscarried 15 years ago I was treated like some type of a moron...like I had done something to cause the miscarriage.

I was not ultra happy about the miscarriage (it was quite unpleasant and depressing and painful to say the least)

The pregnancy was unplanned and occurred when I was on the pill so there was a problem medically from the get go.

We chose to continue my pregnancy, but obviously there was something wrong because I miscarried. I felt relieved in a sense because it was the wrong time all the way around. I was also relieved because I certainly didn't want to have a child with birth defects (given the fact that I had been on the pill)

I certainly didn't do anything to *cause* the miscarriage (I would say that the BC pills caused both the pregnancy AND the miscarriage) but that is certainly not the way I was treated!

There was one female resident that was very nice to me in ER and she treated me with dignity and respect but the actual Dr treated me like some type of low life.
(in fact he sent me home to languish around miscarrying for a week)

That was my first taste of the whole woman=brood mare mentality.

They bushists fundies and company want to ultimately butt into the business of every woman in America PERIOD.

What next? Will those who miscarry be held accountable because the pregnancy ended spontaneously?

[bunkerbuster1]

82. A Virginia legislator wanted to regulate miscarriages

John A. Cosgrove's bill went nowhere, but still... you're not being farfetched at all.

Here's a link to the proposed bill:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+sum+HB1677

Report of fetal death by mother; penalty. Provides that when a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the proper law-enforcement agency within 12 hours of the delivery. Violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

[Carni]

85. I recall hearing about that

The Government has NO business dictating anything in regards to birth control, sex, abortion, or reproductive health.

This is Taliban type stuff IMO

[fedupwithbush]

109. Similar story for me

First, thanks Skinner for sharing.

I was trying to get pregnant for 6 years. Finally I did. I started bleeding during my second month and they did an ultrasound on me. No fetus was visible. I had to go to the hospital for what I was told was a D&C. The intern pushing me into the operating room was very rude to me and then told the nurse assisting, "She's having an abortion." That blew me away. I'm pro-choice all the way, but someone medical saying it was an abortion when no fetus was present just shocked me.

To this day I wonder how any woman will be cleaned up after a miscarriage without some asshole classifying that as an abortion also. Where does the nightmare end if they take away our right to have an abortion in the first place? Next, they'll try to outlaw any type of surgery to correct anything in your womb? Or make tying tubes an abortion?

Without that surgery, I know I would not have been able to have the two great kids I now have.

Last, I was raped when I was a teenager. I am so greatful that I didn't get pregnant, but I was already fully prepared to abort if I had gotten pregnant from it. NO ONE should be able to decide those decisions for me. I'm the one who has to live with them.

Thanks DU for giving me a place to say this. These things aren't talked about enough. I want my daughter to always have a choice. And every other female on earth.

[Carni]

115. Well sorry for you but sort of glad it wasn't just me...

I was not trying to get pregnant and wasn't thrilled about being pregnant initially, but I had accepted my situation made my decision and was doing everything "right" health wise...there was nothing that I could have done to deliberately cause that miscarriage.

You know now that you relay your experience...it comes back to me that this asshole Dr that was so rude also announced in the hallways in loud tones that I was having a spontaneous abortion. People were staring and I felt very humiliated.

I learned later that is indeed the medical term for a miscarriage but I thought it showed incredibly rude behavior on the Dr's part--that is not something that should be yelled publicly whether it's a miscarriage OR an abortion!

[LynneSin]

16. This is all the more reason we need to push RU-486 and EC

Abortions should be left between the Woman, her doctor and the father (should he be involved in the process). RU-486 has been proven safe in Europe and would allow the woman to terminate a pregnancy without the stigma of going to one of the few family planning clinics left willing to perform abortions.

At least with this ban in South Dakota these pills can be used safely instead of relying on coat hangers and other vile methods used during the dark ages. I'm suspecting there is going to be a bigtime blackmarket in states like SD and soon Mississippi to provided RU-486 and EC for woman who need help.

[Caoimhe]

27. The only problem there is

those methods must be obtained right away. Often, there is either no access or a girl may be too uneducated, or in denial... to realize she is pregnant until it is too late to use those things. ALL AVENUES must be left open to all women and girls, PERIOD. We can't lull ourselves into a false sense of security that RU-486 and EC will prevent desperate girls/women from getting unsafe back alley abortions.

[LynneSin]

29. Not RU-486

I believe that'll work through the trimester. But you're right about EC. This is why I started a thread about a week ago about stockpiling Birth Control pills while you can because certain BCP can be used as EC in a pinch.

[KitchenWitch]

38. posted in the wrong place

:blush:

[LynneSin]

44. I haven't done anything

Hell my appointment is in 3 weeks.

But maybe I will be able to help in the long run.

Oh and I have been there twice for two different women facing this decision. Ultimately both decided to keep the child but both went through heart-wrenching antagonizing over whether to do it and neither could tell the father (one, the father was her husband but she just wasn't prepared to have kids so soon after marriage and she was basically just scared)

[tritsofme]

113. EC wasn't made illegal by this bill, was it?

Since it isn't an abortion pill and prevents pregnancy from occuring in the first place, I wouldn't think it would be.

[Ilsa]

18. Thank you for the story. You were a good friend to that lady.

I knew a woman who needed an abortion and had to go from AZ to California, IIRC to get one pre-1973. Her boyfriend took her, and it was expensive, but at least it was legal and sterile.

Actress Lee Remick joined us our abortion rights protest in Dallas about 15 years ago. She told us of her sorority sisters who had to have a closed meeting occasionally to "pass the hat" to raise enough money for one of their sisters to travel out of state for an abortion.

I see abortion more as a failure. It's a failure of birth control, a failure of memory, a failure of whatever caused the pregnancy to take.

[Road Scholar]

19. You make a very important point. To hear the "pro-lifers" tell it,

abortion for most of us, abortion is a casual decision, made by thoughtless,uncaring calloused people. The only one or two that I've ever
even heard of, was done by thoughtful considerate people who had a nightmare trying to make the right decision.

[Plausible]

20. Thanks Skinner

The time is definitely here that we all need to speak up for women's rights to decide about their own body.

Through my past work, I have seen a pregnant 10-year-old, a 14-year-old incest victim; and other awful situations.

[spindrifter]

21. Thank you Skinner.

Each abortion has a very personal and complex story. It is important to share, if that is possible for the individual, in order to understand the personal meaning, as well as the moral meaning. Let us all be free to choose and to speak.

[lavenderdiva]

23. thanks for sharing that Skinner...

and thank you for being there to help your friend when she needed help. That's a true friend!

[Solly Mack]

24. Thank you.

I don't cotton to the framing of "necessary evil". It plays into anti-choice thinking. If you say it's evil and you're against evil, then you would ban abortion.

Abortion is necessary.Period. Nothing evil about it. Nothing evil about the women or men involved.

[brook]

25. Thank you.

And what you did makes you an exceptionally valuable friend to your friend. It labels you as someone who can be counted on, to be trusted, to be non-judgemental - all that signifies a true friend. You gave a gift of kindness to someone in great pain and turmoil. Nothing could be more moral.

[Armstead]

28. Sorry to say this -- But there should be regrets involved in abortion

I hate to disagree with the Big Kahuna of DU, and I realize your own involvement in that ws minimal.

I'm very much pro-choice. But I do understand the views of the other side. And, more importantly, I think abortion is a necessary evil, and regret is a part of it that should be ackowledged.

Just my opinion, but it's based in personal experience that gave a perspective on both sides of this.

I've always avoided mentioning it here, but I was once involved in an abortion as the father. Without going into the details, someone I was very much in love with got pregnant despite all our precautions.

We agonized about it for several weeks, and kept changing our minds. The factors against having the child included the mothers age and health, our financial situation and otehr issues. We finally decided to terminate the pregnancy -- but only with great reluctance.

During those weeks, we both felt increadibly conflicted. And I understood both how anti-abortion people see it, as well as the importance of having the choice available.

To this day I still don't know if it was the right thing to do or not. But I have never gotten over the regret and guilt, and these many years later I still sometimes wonder with great sadness what the baby would be like today of we had not made that decision.

In short, I believe it is vital to protect the right to do it. But I also believe that we should not minimize the very real implications of what an abortion really is.

[LynneSin]

31. But that goes back to the whole choice thing

There are no officially assigned feelings for anyone who has had any contact with anything in regards to the abortion issue. It's a personal thing and how you felt is just as important as how Skinner felt. But even more importantly, it's not something that needs to be shared with our government and other busybodies sticking their noses in where they don't belong.

[Armstead]

35. I totally agree with you

I agree that it's none of the government's buisiness, nor should people try to intrude on an individual basis on anyone's decision about it.

I guess my point, though, was that we should not minimize the very real emotions and issue it stirs up among people.

IMO it is more effective to acknowldge that reality in the debate if we are to protect it as a right.

[Mad_Dem_X]

64. Well said, LynneSin - it's PERSONAL

No one can tell another person how they should feel.

[Caoimhe]

32. Yes, because guilt is so productive.

sigh

You sir, did not go through the abortion, you were a bystander. It was ultimately NOT your decision, it was hers. I have known about 8 women and girls who've had abortions and NOT ONE regrets it, or wallows in guilt about it. Stop trying to force your own personal shame onto others. Having an abortion does NOT mean one must feel shame or guilt or regrets. I am tired of this idea that there must be a contstant mourning. I myself have had several miscarriages, should I carry around guilt and shame as well? My guess is you would say no, nature did that, it wasn't my CHOICE to end the pregnancy. So, the shame is in having the choice and using it? BS


*on edit* I'm sorry for coming off so cruel about your experience. But this subject is very raw for me. Nobody NEEDS to feel regret for their personal decisions.

[LynneSin]

33. He was the father and it was a relationship - so yes, he was!

So he was just as much a part of it as the woman. And he has every right to antagonize.

And as I had posted - there are no official 'feelings' when it comes to choice - it's how you feel and we should not be the ones to judge because it's not how we might feel.

[Caoimhe]

34. I disagree. His part was purely emotional, not physical

*he was just as much a part of it as the woman*

ahh yes.. he had his uterus scraped and bled for weeks, while his body went through hormonal upheaval, eh?

[LynneSin]

41. This is not going to win the battle on choice

by basically saying all men are discounted when it comes to abortions. In the story that Skinner told us, the father was basically the sperm-donor but the story that Armstead told us he was in a loving relationship with the mother.

Sure, physical it was nothing for him. But if we are to win the battle for choice we need to recognize that there are men out there like Armstead, Skinner and so many other who have been a vital part of this process whether giving a ride to a woman or making the heart-wrenching decision to go through with the process.

Armstead was sharing how he felt and making a valid point that for many there is always a sense of regret in the choices they've made. I thought it was a great addition to the thread and respected the fact that he was there for the girl and not just walked away like so many do.

[TahitiNut]

51. The seductive myth that there are some 'officially approved' feelings ...

... is the same false belief that leads so many into the delusion that such issues can be 'solved' by legislation. There is no possible way that such an individual dilemma, under such widely varying and differing conditions, can be 'simplified' by a state edict that treats human beings in such a commoditized fashion. Human reproduction just isn't a cookie-cutter issue - not for the 'left' or the 'right.'

In denying individual privacy, particularly in human sexuality and reproduction, the state further reduces human beings to mere commodities. We see it happening for labor, for sexual orientation, and for reproduction. Human beings are NOT commodities!

[Armstead]

65. Human beings are not commodities -- That was part of my point

It's a difficult philosophical issue below the political debates. It ultimately boils down to what individuals see as the nature and beginning of life.

I agree that there should be no state sanctioned or official response. I acknowledged that I was inappropriate to use the word "should" feel regret.

But I think feeling regret bolsters the recognition that human beings are not comnmodties. IMO seeing life as a mere bioloigical process is more conducive to the view that we are merely physical commodities. No one regrets, or example, removing a facial mole because it does't raise the same set of questions.

But I'll admit that I also feel guilty when I swat a mosquito, so my own standards may tend too much toward weeniedom, in terms of such issues. O8)

[TahitiNut]

72. I salute a fellow weenie.

I've been treated to a wide range of reactions on more than one occasion when I chose to carry a spider or bug to the outdoors rather than murder it for trespassing.

Nobody else can take custody of or responsibility for my conscience.

[Armstead]

39. Oh, nonsense

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. I have never mentioned this on DU before, and I'm simply epressing my own opinion....It seems more like you want to impose some unemotional "neutral" politically correct response on me.

And even though I was "just" the father, I was just as emotionally involved with it as my girlfriend. Don't use that sexist stereotype, or lump every father in with some rapist or casual male sex partner.

[Caoimhe]

42. What is nonsense

is saying that people SHOULD feel regret or shame for a personal choice.

[Armstead]

53. I'm simply expressing my opinion..People tend to do that on message boards

I'm not in a position to dictate how anyone should or should not feel.

But I am in a position to express my opinion and beliefs about it.

Hd you not been so callous in your original response, I probably would have acknowleged your original point that people have a right to feel or not feel whatever they choose.

[Caoimhe]

60. I understand

and I am sorry. I didn't mean to flame you. I honestly feel that a lot of women who feel guilt and regret for their decision to abort, are told they should feel that way by others. I realize many feel it, as humans we are all different. But I felt like your post was a bit condescending to all the women out there who DO NOT feel regret or shame for their decisions. I apologize again for being so cruel about your situation, I let my sometimes forked tongue get ahead of my brain and my heart.

[Armstead]

70. Accepted

I realise the whole subject is very emotional.

It's why I usually stay away threads on the subject, and stick with the "easy" topics like whether or not Democrats are our champions or useless. :)

[bloom]

122. "I was just as emotionally involved with it as my girlfriend"

Since there is no known mechanism for measuring emotions - there really isn't any way for you to know that.


Also - since women's hormones are a large part of the process - and since you weren't physically pregnant - I don't think it's that unreasonable to assume that you were NOT in fact equally emotionally involved - since you were not equally physically involved. That doesn't mean that you were not involved - or that you did not care quite a bit.


It's NOT sexist or some other nonsense to say that pregnancies affect women more than they do men. I think it's the people who refuse to acknowledge that that are the ones with their heads in the sand.

[bettyellen]

81. well said, he was not up on the table, having a procedure done..

if that were possible, the laws wouldn't be as they are now. we wouldn't have to discuss this, shame wouldn't be part of the equation.

[Fleshdancer]

40. why exactly?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but why should guilt be felt? This leads into the philosophical question of when human life begins, doesn't it?

[Armstead]

49. Maybe I used the wrong word with "should"...

Probably in stead of saying "should," a more appropriate way to say it would have been that regret is a natural response for many people, even when they believe they are doing the right thing ultimntely.

Pesonally, I do believe that terminating a life ought to be a cause for regret. But that's my opinion I realize. Others might see it differently. Among otehr things, I remember wrestling in a very direct way with a lot of spiritul and biological questions during those weeks I mentioned. Ultimately, I felt instinctively that it was a human being. But I an understand how people who don;t beliefe life begins that early could feel otehrwise.

[Zookeeper]

117. If I may add something....

I can't help but think part of the regret or sadness some people feel is related to a wish that things could be different. Plenty of people WANT to have children, but sometimes a pregnancy happens at an impossible time. So, yes, it can be very sad if you love your partner, want to have children someday, "what if, what if..."

It sounds to me, Armstead, that you were very responsible.

[Bridget Burke]

43. "She cried the entire way home."

This young woman did not make her decision lightly. I doubt a woman who's just had an abortion is unaware of "what an abortion really is." Sometimes abortion is the best way out of a tough situation. Not an "evil."

Perhaps you & your lover did NOT make the right decision. That does not mean that others are unable to do so.

[Skinner]

52. It is true that regret is part of abortion for many people.

It is also true that guilt and shame and sadness are part of abortion for many people. We should not pretend otherwise. It is appropriate to acknowledge all of those feelings. Abortion can be a terrible choice, and I know it was for my friend. I am well aware of the emotional pain she faced, and I believe I acknowledged it in my post.

But I think it is wrong to say that there "should" be regret involved in abortion. My involvement in my friend's abortion was admittedly small, but I do not regret it and I do not feel ashamed about it. It is likely that she herself may still feels some level of pain and regret about her abortion. But I do not think she "should" feel shame or regret. In fact, I hope that she does not.

[Armstead]

56. I agree that no one "should" feel regret.

Probably a poor choice of words on my part to say people should feel regret.

My point was that we shouid acknowledge, however, that it does cause regret for many people, if we want to make the pro-choice case to the other side and to people with mixed feelings and opinions about it.

[Skinner]

61. I agree.

It is true that many people are deeply ambivalent about abortion, and it is appropriate to acknowledge those feelings.

[bettyellen]

74. very poor choice of words. i have never met a single woman who

felt regret. it may not be a simple thing, but guilt and regret are often not part of it at all, nor do they need to be.
relief is.

[Armstead]

75. I'll introduce you to my girlfriend of the time and to my sister in law

Two very different women in different ircumstances who both felt regret and guilt very strongly after having it done.

If I can come up with two within my own circle of acquaintences off the top of my head, I imagine there are at least a few others who have similar rection.

[bettyellen]

78. perhaps they've been playing up to your expectations of "should regret"

it's pretty obvious the narrative you'd prefer, lots of people would prefer women to hang their heads in shame, so you ain't alone.

[Armstead]

84. You obviously don't know them. Trust me that's not what they're doing

Both are very forthright and placating my expectations would be totally out of character for eitehr of them.

And despite what you may think, I keep my own feelings about this to myself usually.

Their obvious emotions and what they expressed was genuine.

[bettyellen]

106. gosh, if i knew you were afraid of swatting flies, i'd peg you as not

being able to handle the situation in a rational manner.
i'd be too concerned about your very delicate sensibilities. :shrug:

[Armstead]

123. That was really cute

Kind of attitude that is really going to win people over to your point of view. :eyes:

[bettyellen]

125. what's the matter, think i'll regret it? LOL.

you seem to want it both ways, mister.... this abortion affected you deeply to this day, yet later you say... you're "over it" .
you play up your squeamish nature when it helps you, and get offended when it's used to illustrate your friends might know you better than you realize.
seriously, we women have already gotten the memo, we are supposed to be all regretful and conflicted if we get abortions. it's been made clear by many of y'all that just shrugging your shoulders and saying, "well that sucked" just ain't enough for you guys.
you might think it's a life, but lots of us think it's just a blob of cells, and no reason to mourn, regret or apologize.

[Armstead]

126. Okay I get it. All men are schmucks who have no right to an opinion.

Thanks for playing. :boring:

[bettyellen]

128. i did not say that... but you did make this all about your ego just now.

and maybe you ought to learn to control that.

[Armstead]

129. Yeah, right. "It's all about me."

Please forgive me for offering an opinion based on personal experience, and also for replying to people who responded. (And in a thread based on someone else's personal experience.)

Excuse me, I've got to go feed my ego now. The dang thing is always hungry.

[bettyellen]

130. well darling i have to laugh at your advice to be nicer about this...

why should i? because then you'd feel less threatened and maybe be okay with agreeing with me?
especially when you think you exert no known social pressures on these women you supposedly know so well...
if you do it to strangers here, because you don't like being argued with, god knows what you'd be like in real life. think about it.
honestly, you did not respond to the content at all of what i said, merely got defensive about how i said it.
so yeah, that would be your ego. that's how that works.

[Armstead]

132. If so, then this is just a case of battling egos

On DU I rarely take it personally -- or make it personal --when people disgree with me, no matter how strongly. I can usually have a good civil debate and stick to the subject at hand. I can give as good as I get without getting nasty.

The only thing that gets my dander up is gratitous personal attacks. That's when I tune out the content. I would put your responses into that category.

It is especially offensive for you to preseume to know anything about the personal relationships I mentioned. You haven't a clue about it, so don't project your own assumptions or experience onto people you know nothing about.

If and when you ever wish to discuss the subject rationally, I'm happy to oblige. Otherwise you can tend to your ego, and I'll tend to mine.

[bettyellen]

133. so let's go back, because i'm dead serious- if i knew you were

squeamish about killing bugs, let alone would call a cluster of my cells a life, i wouldn't be upfront with you, no way.
why would you think i should? seems like that says all i need to know about your ability to be what i consider to be rational about it.
you pretty much said so yourself, didn't you, when you mentioned the bugs?
i was really just trying to explain that people make their expectations known through a range of behaviour, without being all that specific.
in a real general way, and not just from you, women know they are expected to express regret- whether or not they truly feel it.
some people, you know they would never pass judgement or expect the regret. some people would never be okay with abortion.
i doubt your friends were clueless as to where you'd be on that spectrum.

[jbnow]

100. Many women I knew

who got abortions did have some regrets.
I am a women who is pro-choice, my friends who got one were too.

But some who regretted it didn't make that free a choice, their boyfriends insisted. They "chose", but felt bullied and bitter. That's a whole other issue.

Most others who regretted it were mothers already but the circumstances for another child were very bad or amnio showed a problem. Their regret was different, they were sorry they had to make the choice, but knew they had to and knew it was right.
All of them now and then thought of how old the child would be and sometimes wondered if they could have made it work. Not wracked with guilt, but vague regrets.

But I know some who after initial sadness at the situation really had no regrets.

In any case we always have to have the choice because sometimes it is just the right answer. That's SO clear. And women should never have to go through swearing ot proving they were raped or it was incest or any such crap to be able to get one. The why of it is never our business, we honor the choice.

[July]

99. Armstead, I think we do acknowledge this.

The other side portrays us as "pro-abortion," as if we actively wish women to seek abortions, yet they, being on the other side, do not know how we view the issue (or, at least, they don't understand our point of view very well). I think it is the rule rather than the exception on our side that we understand that many women have regret and often agonize over their decision to have an abortion.

That's why we like Clinton's formulation of "safe, legal, and RARE" (my emphasis there) -- because it IS difficult for many, even those of us who don't think in terms of "terminating a life" but rather in terms of "what might have been," with all that that implies about our relationships with the fathers, our plans for our futures, etc.

That's why we keep asking the anti-choice side to do something to help the sexually active get birth control, have access to both abortion and prenatal care, and care for or adopt out the children that are born when a woman chooses to go to term.

We do see the nuances and differences among women; they don't. One size morality fits all for the other side.

[TahitiNut]

68. This goes to the very heart of the issue of legislating reproductive ...

... freedoms. Absolutely every instance of choice is unique, no matter whether it's an "of course" or an "oh no!" Just as every human being is unique and that uniqueness must be respected in terms of human rights and civil liberties, so is every instance of pregnancy even moreso unique - at every level.

It is every bit as fallacious to impose arbitrary measures of 'rightful' on individual choices as it is to presume such measures in legislating an elimination of the freedom of such choices - treating human beings as commodities and reproduction as a mere manufacturing process.

It's a complete delusion to believe that there's any just and rightful 'simplification' of issues that are, in so many cases, agonizingly difficult merely as single instances. Since when is it sane to believe that millions of extraordinarily difficult choices are made somehow easier by legislation while preserving anything within light-years of the aggregate 'right' and 'good' achieved by leaving it to individual choice?

I remember when Roe v. Wade was passed and the profound misgivings I had and have to this day. In even imposing legislative jurisdiction over human reproduction, Roe v. Wade sanctioned state jurisdiction over what I regard as the single most (secularly) sacrosanct aspect of human freedoms: reproduction. I do not believe any state interest rises above the interest in prohibiting infringements in this area. None.

IMHO, Roe v. Wade was wrongly-decided in presuming any jurisdiction whatsoever prior to a live birth. The state camel got its nose into the tent of liberty - probably never to leave.

[Beetwasher]

136. When You Put It That Way

Hell yeah. It's offensive to my sensibilities that there even had to BE a RVW decision.

[TahitiNut]

146. Indeed. The 'damage' of establishing ANY jurisdiction is immeasurable.

What I was also attempting mightily to point out is the pervasive ethical fallacy of imposing any kind of "cookie cutter" treatment on such a systemically complex area as the exercise of individual liberties and human rights - human reproductive rights being possibly the most deserving of protection against such treatment. Any such treatment is doomed to fail because the huge variety of relevant individual circumstances just cannot yield to categorization under man-made stereotyping. Every 'brush' is a fallacious 'broad brush' - no matter what 'side' one is on.

I wish I could find a way to say it in a more succinct and pithy fashion - one that would make it clear in an "ah-hah!" way. I'm just not skilled enough in language to express that which I see in a dynamic/systemic sense.

The complexities inherent in any individual pregnancy can be so extreme as to test the wisdom of a Solomon and so diverse as to be uncountable. The pretense that one can impose any a priori 'rules' (other than the 'hands off' rule) is fallacious at the outset. Yet, even in propounding some liberal sense of 'right v. wrong,' pro-choice advocates commit the same fallacy. The whole is NOT simpler than the parts.

It seems to me that this is at the heart of holding civil liberties and human rights sacrosanct and free from the blunt instruments of legislation in general. Any such attempt is, I believe, doomed to create more overall harm than a 'no trespassing' sign (hands-off edict) - if only because human beings and their liberties cannot be commoditized for the sake of imposing compliance to any rule.

[mimitabby]

57. why SHOULD there be regrets ???

Because you ejected a few hundred cells from your uterus?
because you made sure that an unwanted life never began?
Give me a break.
I guess there should be regrets each time a guy jacks off too.
All those lives that could have been!

[supernova]

58. I am sorry for your loss, Amstead

It is a heartbreaking decision to make anytime.

I don't think there is anything else you could have done differently to dissuade her, if her health or her age were factors. Our biology just does catch up with us.

But I have never gotten over the regret and guilt, and these many years later I still sometimes wonder with great sadness what the baby would be like today of we had not made that decision.

Don't you think it's time to let go of the pain? To stop hurting yourself and hurting her, or your memory of her?

[Armstead]

67. Thanks....I've gotten over it though.

It was a long time ago and I don't dwell on it, or obsess over it. I've made my peace with it and have moved on.

But I doubt the residual efects will ever go away on some level. It's like other events we go through in life that stay inside.

[FlaGranny]

92. Interesting story, in that you have

described exactly what most people facing the choice go through. Once, as a youngster, a senior in high school, I became pregnant with my fiance. This was long before Roe vs Wade, and when I visited my family doctor he offered me an illegal abortion. By this time I was married, but only 17 years old. We declined, as this was a pregnancy begun in love and we wanted the baby. Unfortunately, the baby died in utero at 5 months and spontaneously aborted. I still, do this day, 50 years later, think about that potential child.

I have no doubt there are some callous women and girls who have abortions because they can't be bothered - but I also believe that women like these should NOT be mothers of unwanted kids who, in many cases, will not be adopted, will grow up abused and unloved, and continue the viscious cycle.

Also, at about age 50, many years after a tubal ligation, I tested positive for pregnancy, which I believe spontaneously aborted before 6 weeks. I was scared out of my wits to carry a pregnancy at that age, but I would not have aborted for the same reasons as when I was 17.

Therefore, although I know I could not personally abort a pregnancy, I believe there are those who should - some because they are not fit to be parents, and others because, for reasons beyond their control, they are unable to continue the pregnancy for health or other reasons. They only person who can decide those reasons is the person who is pregnant.

[bettyellen]

105. callous women and girls who have abortions because they can't be bothered?

WTF?

[FlaGranny]

149. Do you really doubt there are a few

women who have no regard for what they're doing? I don't believe it is as common as some would like to believe, but - come on, people are people. There are some people who care for no one but themselves. There are people who would kill other people without blinking an eye. Some of them are women and some of these women get pregnant and don't bat an eye about getting an abortion, except for the physical pain. For most women, it would be a very serious undertaking with a lot of soul searching. The few who don't care, though, can't be a reason to deny abortion to others who should have the choice.

[bettyellen]

150. i know quite a few women who didn't need to "search their souls"

in order to decide to have an abortion.
many people don't believe life begins at conception, many feel like there is no moral problem getting an abortion. it doesn't mean they are callous or less caring than you and your regretful sisters, it means that they have different beliefs.
try remembering and respecting it, instead of this denigration. we are not living in a theocracy yet.

[FlaGranny]

154. Denigration?

You are reading a lot into my posts that is not there. My personal feelings have nothing to do with it, but I believe a fetus is a human when it is born and can live outside the womb. I believe in choice. I also believe that there are uncaring people. Just because I had the choice once (almost twice) and couldn't do it, does not mean I don't think others shouldn't if that's best for them.

Why is it so hard to believe that for many women it is a hard choice? Do you believe it should always be an easy choice and that no pregnant woman should give an abortion a second thought?

[Misunderestimator]

155. I think that women should decide whether it's worth a second thought.

For me, the only second thought would have been for my own health. I never had an abortion, but I have had friends who have. My thoughts and their thoughts were only for their health, like in any medical procedure. What do you think the "second thought" should be? The few times I have been afraid I might have been pregnant, my thoughts were on praying that I was not pregnant. There was no question that I would have had an abortion if I was pregnant back then while I was in college. I had NO thoughts even remotely related to anything else. Why would it be a hard choice, other than for medical concerns?

[FlaGranny]

160. It is a different

story when you are married or in a committed relationship and a pregnancy occurs than it is when a pregnancy results from a casual affair or a rape. At least it would be for me. I definitely would consider an abortion for myself in the second circumstance. I would probably feel guilty about aborting the pregnancy caused by the affair - my responsibility after all (but I would have the abortion), but not the rape. That's the way I feel personally, but I don't demand that everyone feel the same way. That's why we should have a choice.

I guess if some people don't give it a second thought, well, they're entitled to feel the way they feel.

[bettyellen]

156. there's a lot of BS here about how it's callous or uncaring not to show

regret. i didn't suggest as others here that there is only one proper way to react. people seem to try to force this regretful thing on women, and i find it really offensive.
some people know their minds quite well and find it the only choice. some people have sex and know they will never bear a child to term. when their birth control fails, they're callous becasue they're not wringing their hands piously or thinking about it enough to suit you?
gosh, i have a great idea! let's force them to go to counceling first! maybe take an ultrasound... lets see if we can't stir up some angst in the woman- she's getting off too easily!! it's the same puritanical BS that women must endure some punishment for sex.

[Fleshdancer]

30. I agree, I don't think the decision is evil

For me, evil would be telling a rape victim to carry the product of her violence to full term regardless of what is best for her mental and emotional state. Evil is looking a woman in the eye and telling her that her life irrelevant because the promise of future life means more than her own.

Aside from the issues of privacy and choice over one's own body, I have a HUGE problem with so many people presenting their philosophical belief as absolute fact. I personally don't believe human life begins when a sperm fertilizes an egg and I know I'm not alone in this belief.

[supernova]

37. You're a good man, Skinner!

And you're a great friend. :hug:

Thanks for sharing your story.

[CornField]

45. It's difficult, isn't it?

I've shared my abortion story several times in public situations (including DU) and the words never seem to come any easier. My internal conflict is not regret over the abortion, but regret that something which should be so private and so sacred has been reduced to little more than two hyphenated words (pro-life, pro-choice). There is simply no way anyone can take my abortion situation and apply it to anyone else... or take someone else's abortion situation and apply it to mine. It's personal... most likely the most personal thing anyone will ever experience.

Skinner, you should know that over the years I've forgotten the faces and names of those who stood in the picket lines. I've forgotten their voices, most of what was yelled at me and most of what was printed on the signs. To this day, however, I can see the face, hear the voice and feel the touch of the volunteer who took my hand and helped me cross the protest line. Kindness like that - and like you gave to your friend - isn't something which fades in the memory. It is also something the universe has a way of bringing back to you. :hug:

[KitchenWitch]

46. Thank you for being there for your friend

you did a bigger thing than you will ever know.

[Caoimhe]

48. Every woman needs a friend like Skinner

non-judgemental, unassuming and willing to help in whatever way possible. You didn't force yourself into the situation, yet you were there for her when you needed her. I applaud you and all good friends who've helped people through personal crisis. No matter how big or small your role, you proved that being human is about caring and not being judgemental or second guessing others' choices.

[intheflow]

50. You are what a feminist looks like!

It's too bad that the Demopedia DU Gallery is defunct now or I would have re-posted that photo of you wearing that shirt from the 2004 Repro Rights march in DC.

Thank you, Skinner, for being such a strong male feminist voice. :hug:

[RazzleDazzle]

66. Uh, let's not get carried away, shall we?

Chauffering a friend is one thing (not to diminish what he did, tho he himself recognizes how "little" it was) -- but being an actual male feminist requies quite a bit more than that in my book. Stopping the rampant sexism on a website one owns would definitely be required. Or, barring that, it might be nice to participate in something like this to show one's support for women:
http://vegankid.solidaritydesign.net/blog-against-sexism-day
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2497191&mesg_id=2497191

[intheflow]

73. I think you must not know Skinner very well.

My experiences with him, including my past experience as a mod, have convinced me that Skinner is indeed a feminist.

I also don't see DU as a place where sexism is any more rampant than in the rest of society. I think most of what is interpreted as "rampant sexism" here on DU is being read into/projected onto posts by individual members, viewing open discussion content through their individual lenses. That's not a judgment on you, but a realization that we all interpret the world (including the world of DU) through our own experiences. That's just part of the complexity of working to overcome these huge societal issues.

[mimitabby]

54. thanks Skinner, someone drove ME too.

I guess i ought to thank her again !

[Rowdyboy]

59. Thats what real friends are for....to be there when you need them most

You were a good friend when she needed one most.

[sinkingfeeling]

69. Thanks Skinner. I also do not believe and refuse to believe that my

choice to have an abortion at 5 weeks was immoral, 'murder', or evil. I made a logical and moral choice. I looked at my position in life, my career, my 3 year old son, my character and my ability to deal with mental/physically challenged people. I did discuss the issue with the 'father' and even though we never married, he remained by best friend until his death last fall...32 years.

I was crying also on the day of the procedure, for it is a sad experience, but I have no regrets. No shame and will never believe what was done was wrong in any way.

[davsand]

71. In an ideal world no woman will face an unchosen pregnancy.

This, however, is not an ideal world.

Unchosen pregnancy is not something any woman can just brush off casually. Pregnancy (even a planned, chosen one!) is a HUGE thing to get your head around. It has physical and emotional impact on the woman and on the other people around her.

I absolutely HATE the spin that abortions happen as a form of birth control. I can't imagine the mindset that allows anyone to think that. No woman gets up in the morning and thinks, "Yeah, I WANT to get my cervix dilated and have my uterus scraped out--that's a whole lot more fun than taking a pill or using a condom."

WTF planet are these people living on to think this is even remotely close to reality?

Birth control does fail. Women are sometimes not educated enough to understand how pregnancies happen. Sometimes there IS no access to contraceptives. Those things all come into this issue of unchosen pregnancies.

The bottom line, the absolute reality is that unchosen pregnancies DO happen--be it from birth control failure, a lack of reproductive understanding, or any other reason. Women end up pregnant and have to deal with it.

When access to legal, safe, and sterile abortion is restricted women die.

Skinner, you are a stand up guy, and you are one of the good ones. (DU seems to be populated with good guys, I have noticed...) You are right when you say it shouldn't be about guilt. While, I'll grant you, we DO make the decision about having sex, there is an awful lot that can contribute to a pregnancy that is beyond our control once we indulge in that one primal need. For that, should there be guilt?

IMO, Unchosen pregnancy is a bit like getting Cancer--in that it forces a lot of unpleasant things into your life. Do we blame people for THAT? (Yeah, you can point to the guy that smoked 40 packs of cigarettes a day and he died with lung cancer, but really, most cancers just kind of happen...)

I look at my 8 year old and I shudder to think what lies ahead for her and all the other little girls if there is no longer an option for choice.

I can only hope that more men and women will stand up in compassion and caring the way you did that day, Skinner, and the way you are doing it now.


Laura

[IsIt1984Yet]

139. The 'too many use it as a form of birth control' issue pisses me off

I just got into this argument with a friend. It made me evaluate things.

I sent him this email after a heated IM conversation in which he used this as his ONLY rational "too many women use it as birth control!!":

See.... I am a woman. And I think woman should be valued.

Yes, XXXX, grown-ups who engage in sex without contraception or even WITH contraception (in the case of failure) face the potential of conception. And choices should exist. Not everyone should be a parent or is in a position to be a parent when this situation arises. Choices can be made and people learn from them. Is there abuse? Yes... but there's abuse with everything. That abuse should not be a reason to take a potential decision away from every other women faced with a life-altering situation.

The assumption that I, or the majority, or fuck, ANY women use it as a 'form of birth control' is a weak argument and a sad glimpse of how little you value the ability of a woman to make a sound decision. That argument is the one that kicked me into pissed off mode. Your argument that too many women use it as birth control and that it should be banned is literally saying that women as a whole can't be trusted with the decision. And, as a result of poor judgement from TWO people, she must now carry a child to term and deliver a child and either raise a child or put the child into a world with millions of already unwanted and uncared for children. Yes, I find that argument weak and sad and I find it sad that you feel that way.

At the most basic level, the abortion issue is not really about abortion. It is about the value of women in society. Should women make their own decisions about family, career, and how to live their lives? Or should government do that for them? Do women have the option of deciding when or whether to have children? Or is that a government decision? Are society and the government on such a moral high ground that they can simply make these decisions for women?

Women can now select their own paths in society, including when and whether to have children. Family planning, contraception, and, if need be, legal abortion are critical to sustaining women's freedom. There is no going back.

Sorry you got into the discussion with such a flaming liberal feminist pinko slut? :eyes:

I haven't heard back from him yet. This is a guy I've known for 7 years. Oddly, the discussion had never come up before. He's known my political views, but abortion as an issue hadn't been discussed until SD's bonehead move yesterday.

Now I will fight my battles and call people out on their misogyny and bullshit. I promise.

[cally]

76. Thanks for posting this, Skinner

I believe that one of the reasons women are losing rights over their own bodies is that too few of us share our personal experiences with abortion, failed birth control, and those panicked weeks most heterosexuals have faced wondering if you or your mate is pregnant. Too often, it is seen as something evil and rare when most of us have someone in our family or a close friend who has had an unwanted pregnancy. I've posted several times on this board that I'm just lucky that I didn't face this choice personally. I think every sexually active heterosexual should feel fortunate if they never had an unintended pregnancy because birth control does fail too often. You were a good friend.

[ninkasi]

77. Thank you

for sharing your story with us, and for being there when a friend needed you.

[hfojvt]

80. there should be some regret

Are you ignoring the elephant in the room?

It is promiscuity.

This raises a red flag for me:
"She had only been dating this guy for a short time, the relationship was going nowhere."
Maybe it would be wise to hold off on the sex until you know where a relationship is going. That was a choice she made before the earlier choice and it was the wrong one.

Of course, since I have never met the woman, it is none of my business. It never was, and probably never will be. I am just putting that forward as a general moral principle. One that is taught by most variations of Christianity. I would advise against it, in the same way I would advise against putting your hand in a loaded rat trap.

[tigereye]

86. this post is sickening (not the op, but the latest response)

please check the year, century and consult some books about sexuality.

[Skinner]

88. self-delete.

x

[Cleita]

89. I see the moral police are out again.

It's because of people like you that women will die unecessarily in the future if this trend keeps up. I don't see the same moral outrage for the man who used her for his own satisfaction and then dumped her without a thought to his responsibilities for the results of his actions.

[redqueen]

97. Isn't that because men 'can't help it'?

:puke:

Boys will be boys, but you girls better keep your legs closed!

:nuke:

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

96. If men could get pregnant

they'd be ordering abortions like it was beer on tap.

[redqueen]

98. Disappointed doesn't even begin to describe

my feelings upon reading that post.


Oh wait, what was I thinking?! Of COURSE human sexuality is something that people have had great success at channeling and redirecting at their moralistic whim! Throughout history this has been proven time and again! Silly me! Oh well, I'm just a girl, after all. hee hee

:sarcasm:

[TahitiNut]

108. Isn't that what the "keep it in your pants" crowd is saying?

:shrug: Perhaps I misread them. Maybe that 'advice' was based upon the efficacy of trouser material as a prophylactic.

[hfojvt]

110. there are worse things I could do

Although I hope quoting Rizzo from "Grease" does not imply that I would either say or do some of those worse things.

For example, when did I ever imply that a) my moralistic advice does not apply to males as much as females, or b) that the opinion of females does not matter because of their gender? I am sorry to disappoint you, but please do not read other things into my post. What I've said is probably bad enough without extra implications.

I am not sure what I am supposed to have learned from history. I disagree with what Will and Ariel Durant wrote in "The Story of Civilization" that "sexual morality is the key to all morality" (which is ironic considering what I just read through google - that Will married a 15 year old student (who he renamed Ariel) when he was 28). I did not equate promiscuity with serial killing or mass murder or the downfall of civilization, but it does seem immoral and unwise to me, even if almost everybody does it.

Of course, making either of these two posts seems unwise as well. We all do unwise things. I did not expect to be greeted with flowers as a liberator, but to see if my community can handle a little bit of disagreement and discussion. I shoulda known better.

[redqueen]

112. In the abortion debate,

such advice, IMO, must necessarily fall more upon the females than on the males, simply due to who is carrying the child. Not to mention, throughout history (and why should now be any exception?) men have been encouraged in and lauded for their sexual promiscuity.

My 'tee hee' sarcastic comment was not meant to imply that I shouldn't have an opinion, only that it doesn't matter... seeing as how we women are for some reason considered unqualified to judge whether or not we want to carry a pregnancy to term. Not to mention that we're all damned in the minds of those who demonize women's sexual freedom ... seeming angry that we even have a sex drive similar to men's in the first place.

What you're supposed to have learned from history is that this idea that people are going to suddenly realize that risks should not be taken ... ESPECIALLY when sexual in nature... is naive at best. Think it immoral or evil or whatever you wish... that's your right. However when you start expecting the rest of the world to adopt your viewpoint, that's where it falls apart. Mankind has never and probably never will stop taking risks, least of all where there's personal pleasure to be gained.

Yes, we all do unwise things. Why expect any different from young women? Hmm?

The sarcastic jab at this coummunity wss unnecessary. Because you surely know that while we can indeed handle a bit of disagreement and discussion, it will in no way resemble hearts and flowers and pretty ponies, puppies, and kittens frolicking in the sun.

[Cleita]

114. Also, did you notice that the example of the church going

virgin, who was brutally raped, could be an exception, how about raped, church going, married women? Why do they have to carry their rapist's child to term? And, why don't men have to be church going virgins, too? This used to be called a double-standard, but I just call it bigotry and overt sexism.

[redqueen]

118. Oh yes I did! And yes it IS bigotry.

And I for one am sick to DEATH of seeing this crap go on, and so little said or done about it.

How long did it take the media to spread the word about how 'outraged' everyone was over hillary's plantation comment? Yet THIS makes not a ripple?

--------
State Sen. Bill Napoli, R-Rapid City, explains how rape and incest could be exceptions under the “life” clause. Napoli believes most abortions are performed for “convenience,” but he told “The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer” about how he thinks a “real-life example” of the exception could be invoked:

“A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl, could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.”
--------
:nuke:

[Misunderestimator]

152. It's also unwise to eat fried foods... or to drive automobiles.

Also unwise to post backwards and morally judgmental posts on a liberal website.

[hfojvt]

158. ?tsop ym tuoba hcum sa edecnoc I t'ndid

That is was not wise.
However, I wonder about "judgementally moral"
AFAIK, liberals condemn torture, bigotry, war, ignorance, sexism, racism, etc., etc., etc.,
Are you saying those are not moral judgements?
Or are you saying that
a) liberals endorse promiscuity
or
b) liberals believe in MYOB in this regard?
As a sociologist and philospher I am not sure that such a position is either tenable nor socially beneficial.
But that was yesterday, before I was proven wrong by the eloquence and logic of the 10 replies I got.

[Misunderestimator]

159. "morally judgmental" not "judgementally moral"

I think that it's ridiculous to advocate legislating people's morality, and I think judging someone as promiscuous with no more information than that they had only been dating a short while and that the relationship was going nowhere is completely unfair, and not very progressive at all.

To compare that kind of judgment to judging a racist's bigotry... pretty telling.

[July]

101. Can't agree with you.

I don't assign moral value to either chastity or sexual activity. It is a normal human activity among sexually developed human beings. It is fun. The fact that it may lead to pregnancy or a serious relationship is not a reason not to have sex (IMO), but a reason to be aware of possible physical and emotional repercussions (and to prepare oneself accordingly).

[bettyellen]

107. regret men never go through this crap, so it's ain't free, easy + a relief

which is all it would be seen as if men could get knocked up. there's be no grief, no regret demanded from men, as it is, even here, from women.

[redqueen]

119. Amen, sister.

A-freaking-men.

[readmoreoften]

111. Promiscuity?

I don't care what is taught by "most variations of Christianity". I'm not a Christian and we're not a Christian nation. All the promiscuity in the world isn't going to get me pregnant, because I'm a lesbian. So is promiscuity just a problem for the straights? Or should I expect some other darker punishment?

The self-righteousness in your post of what you "would advise against"... No one has asked for your advice. What on earth makes you think you have answers for people?

[cookiebird]

116. Elephant?

And the choice of the man in this dilemma? What choice did he exercise?
I think Skinner described the situation very well. That other individual bailed.

[WindRavenX]

131. yay for moralists

:eyes:


Stoopid womin folks and their evil sexuality!

[Warren DeMontague]

135. The elephant in the room

is that, "red flag" or not, her sexuality, her morality, her "Christianity" (or lack thereof), is not only none of your business, it's not even remotely your place to say whether her decision to have sex was "wrong" or not.

[Misunderestimator]

151. Promiscuity? How Victorian of you.

:eyes:

[Cleita]

87. I was asked to drive with my friend to Tijuana in Mexico

back in the days when abortions were illegal. She asked me to go with her because I spoke Spanish and she thought that she stood a better chance of not getting involved with a back alley butcher. She had been a victim of date rape, and as a school teacher, in those days a pregnant and unmarried teacher would have been fired immediately and her future as a teacher ruined forever.

She had an address of a Clinica that another friend had given her in L. A.. We found it back on a winding dirt road in a residential neighborhood. The Clinica was dark, dank, and pretty forbidding. We had to find out first if she could have the abortion there. The woman at the desk said we would have to talk to the doctor.

When we were escorted in to see the doctor, he said he would do it for $500, which in today's money would have been about $1,500 dollars. My friend had only brought $300. I had an extra $100 on me. He agreed to do the abortion for $400, which left us with no money to return to Los Angeles with.

I drove back because she was still under the influence of the anesthetic and we were running out of gas, but we had no money to get some. I almost made it home but we ran out of gas over one of the busier freeway overpasses in downtown Los Angeles. There was no way to get to one of the call boxes without getting killed.

We sat there for an hour when a man pulled up behind us and he had a can of gas. I asked him how he could have known. He said he saw us up there from one of the underpasses and he knew we probably had run out of gas so he took a chance. He asked only that I take the can back to the gas station he got it from.

I lied and told him we had lost our money and I didn't know if the one gallon would get us home. He told me the gas station would accept a check if I had a checkbook. Fortunately my friend did, so we were able to gas up and go home. I dropped her off and went home myself.

I called her the next morning to ask her how she was. Her brother answered and said that he had to take her to the emergency room. The abortionist had only induced abortion and she had a miscarriage in the emergency room. Not only that he had damaged her uterus and she was never able to conceive again.

I have posted this at DU before but thought I would again so that everyone will know how awful illegal abortion laws are and what women have to go through to end unwanted pregnancies.

[Zookeeper]

121. Thanks for sharing that, Cleita.

I've missed any previous posts you made about this.

This should be required reading for young people who don't really understand life before Roe v. Wade.

[knitter4democracy]

90. It's really about mercy, isn't it?

We should show each other mercy, and that procedure can be a beneficial, merciful thing. You were a good friend, one who didn't judge and get all weird. She needed that. Bless you.

This is what gets me about people who think there should be no abortion. Well, there are a lot of things that shouldn't exist but do, so what are we going to do about it? Burn all the sinners? It's about being merciful and loving, not getting all hateful and judgemental.

[slackmaster]

91. That's more than I have ever participated in an abortion

Kudos to you for helping your friend. BTW I use the term "sperm donor" for male genetic contributors who don't act like men.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

93. When I went into the clinic for my abortion, in CA,

there was a nurse's assistant, or whatever, a candystripper, who the hell knows, telling me, as I had my pre-surgical cap and gown on, "It is taking a life, after all."

I was 20.

I didn't feel an ounce of shame afterwards. On the contrary, the next day I went horseback riding on the beach, so glad to be free of life-long responsibilities I couldn't handle, and the nausea.

There are few women in my circle who haven't had an abortion, and I've never known them to speak of any shame they felt, other than the shameful attempts made to shame them for their very personal decision.

If men did the driving and kept their mouths shut under the circumstances, women would be all the better for it.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

102. Then I got pregnant again, in Germany

at a time when abortions were illegal in Germany. It was either go to the Netherlands, or have a baby.

The CPT I was living with, and I, decided to get married and have the baby.

Seven weeks into the pregnancy, I started to hemorrhage and had to call the base ambulance service, who brought me to the base clinic. Workers tried several times to get me on an IV, with no idea what they were doing re: that simple task. I was put in a room alone, with the staff chatting convivially in the next room like nothing was going on. They eventually gave me a choice to stay at the clinic or go to the German hospital. After the botched IV, I chose the German hospital. I told them to call the CPT. They said he was on the way.

Since I had already decided to have the baby, I was hopeful it would survive, and when I saw it on ultrasound in the German ER, I asked the doctor if it could be saved. The doctor said we would have to wait to see if the bleeding would stop. By this time, the CPT had arrived to the hospital, but being the CO of his unit, working long hours, he grew tired, left the hospital, and said he would call me in the a.m.

Meanwhile, the bleeding didn't stop. I was wheeled out of my room into the operating room. The doctor asked, incredulously, "Ist Sie alein?"

The Germans kept me for 3 days (typical), and in that time, two male doctors came to my room, which I shared with other women. They asked me a question in German, which I didn't understand. They asked me again. I couldn't make it out. Then, raising his voice very loud, one doctor said, "DID YOU WANT TO HAVE THIS BABY?" I said, "Yes." Since abortion was illegal in Germany, they were probably checking to see if I had "coathanger'd" myself. I should have told them to "fuck off."

After they left, I cried. I didn't care who in the room heard.

In short, whether deciding to abort or keep the child, universally it's a no-win situation for the woman. You're still seen as the bad guy.

[Nikki Stone 1]

94. Thanks for sharing your story, Skinner.

I have personally known 5 women who chose abortion, all for reasons that they felt were justified. One was on medication and the abortion was medically necessary because the fetus was affected by the meds from day 1. (She wasn't supposed to get pregnant by her doctor's order, and she was on birth control, but these things happen.) One was very young and in a physically abusive relationship that she was trying to leave. One was a teenager with a boyfriend who ran off and a family who would have thrown her out had they known. The other two were less desperate, but it was the typical story of birth control failing. In one case, the woman was married and she and her husband were both in agreement that they were not financially able to support a child at that time.

I support all of their decisions. In all of these cases (except one) the woman in question informed her boyfriend or husband about the pregnancy. In some cases, the male ran away from the responsibility. In others, the man was there to help and support. In two cases, I was actually on the spot seeing both the anguish and panic before hand and the relief in their eyes after the abortion. There is always sadness, I think. But there is also the knowledge that one has made the right decision.

There are probably more women I know who have had abortions but don't talk about them.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

95. Would you have supported their decision if...

none of the above applied, they were simply ignorant of the chances to conceive, and took a risk in the heat of the moment?

[Nikki Stone 1]

138. Yes

..

[Colorado Blue]

104. Thanks Skinner.

I'm old enough to remember when abortion was largely illegal, except for a few states where a person ONLY had to prove mental illness or that the pregnancy would threaten her life.

I had friends who suffered terrible infections, one became infertile at age 18 due to a botched backstreet abortion. My 18 year old sister had to prove mental incompetence - a terrible, humiliating ordeal, which made her awful situation even worse.

The wealthy of course could travel. The poor, the young, the rape victims, victims of incest - they were trapped.

Women are more than travelling wombs.

In essence, freedom of choice is a primary condition for women's equality. Freedom of choice will NEVER negate the terrible emotional and moral struggles which much be confronted by women seeking options. And nor should freedom of choice translate to a lack of responsible, adult behavior.

People - USE PREVENTION.

But have some compassion for those who find themselves in untenable positions.

[David Zephyr]

120. Thanks Skinner.

I did the same for a neighbor who got pregnant by a jerk after her first marriage collapsed and she was dating. I drove her to the clinic and afterward took her home.

She married a mutual friend and a great guy. This was 10 years ago. They have a beautiful daughter that is the joy of their lives. He doesn't know and I will go to my grave with it.

I am grateful that she felt that she could call me.

Skinner, thanks for helping your friend, too.

It's a woman's choice and her choice alone.

[proud patriot]

124. Thanks for sharing Skinner

Perhaps when I have a bit more courage I'll
share my Story . I'm not ready .

[bloom]

127. Thanks for posting that.

I'm glad you were there for her.

I wonder what percentage of men (the sperm donors) know of the abortions.

How easy it must be not to know. Not to worry.

[IsIt1984Yet]

134. FWIW, here's mine.

I was 22 years old. I had a four year-old. I was in an abusive (physically and emotionally) marriage; too scared to leave. My ex-husband had "lost" his job and he was carrying our insurance. I had just entered the full-time work force about a year earlier and had just started to build a career. I was just accepted into the management training program and saw an opportunity to make something of myself. My ex was threated by this and thought I'd leave. So, he intentionally broke a condom. How do I know this? He told me after the fact.

So, here I was, deathly afraid of the man I called my husband, no insurance, hardly able to make ends meet - and pregnant. I knew that bringing another child into this world in such an awful circumstance with a man who was an evil alcoholic and had already proven himself as a sorry excuse for a father was wrong.

So, on the most ironic of days, Mother's Day... I had an abortion. It was painful in every possible sense of the word. But, I still know that it was the right choice. Five long years later I gained the strength and self-respect to get out of the marriage. But, the scars that the man left on me and my son are permanent.

Strength to all of us women. It's a very personal decision and I am sickened that some would classify mine (or anyone's) as an abortion of "convenience". No, it was survival.

As I stated last night, choice does not force beliefs and decisions onto people, banning does.

Here's a toast to the strong women faced with such difficult decisions... and I will fight until my last breath for the rights of all of us. :toast:

[Sparkly]

137. Thank you for your post...

That brought tears to my eyes. :hug:

I've lived different parts of your story, but without the unwanted pregnancy. I know what you mean about survival, choice, and the strength both require.

Toast back to you, sister!! :toast:

[IsIt1984Yet]

140. And, thank you.

:hug:

[Sparkly]

141. Please stick around, okay? nt

[Zomby Woof]

142. Everyone should be so fortunate...

...as to have a reliable, non-judgmental, compassionate friend be there at a time of need.

I am unconditionally pro-choice, for I too could never append the noun (or adjective in some contexts) "evil" to one of the deepest personal choices one could face in life, and one with which I could never fully relate as being a man.

But as a human first, and a man second, I hold up your example of friendship as a model without parallel, for which your gesture's simplicity speaks volumes beyond a mere ride home.

[PetraPooh]

143. The problem is that ProLifers (sort of like me), but keep reading. . .

I am pro-life. PERSONALLY pro-life. When I was faced with a third pregnancy very close to a divorce, MAN, I REALLY DIDN'T WANT another child. BUT I found out I am pro-life. I just couldn't/wouldn't have an abortion. Also in my late teens I had a real scare, a solid 20 days late and when I thought about what I should do, I couldn't/wouldn't consider abortion. In my teens, either it was an early miscarriage or just some hormonal goof up. The pregnancy before the divorce was real for sure and I count myself THE LUCKIEST WOMAN because it miscarried at about 15 weeks, whew! Jumped for joy, I did, but I couldn't have had an abortion. Not religious either, just can't do it. However after the miscarriage I had a complete and total hysterectomy ASAP, BTW try to find an GYN that will give an otherwise heathly, reasonably young woman a hysterectomy. I had to search till I found a one that would accept that it was MY BODY and I wanted all the plumbing removed.

But here is my point. . .I have noticed that MOST women that wouldn't/couldn't have an abortion are pro-life and think everyone else should be. I have wondered my whole life; why can't they all be like me, pro-life for myself (really pro-choice since it is simply my choice) and pro-choice for everyone else. Seems "PRO-CHOICE" has come to mean pro-abortion. IT DOESN'T. It means we, each and every woman, should have the right to make their own choice each and every time they think about having sex (ie contraceptives) or in fact become pregnant.

On a final note, one of the MSM's evening news had a report about how the parental consent rule has affected abortion rates among teens. Well, the "interviewee" was an eight month pregnant teen that was "so glad that due to the interference of her parents, she was going to have and keep the baby." Uhm, my overwhelming thought while she was talking about how great having to have parental consent was. . . . ask her again when she grows up. Based on what does anyone think a 17 year old has a clue as to the REAL life outcome her choice will be? Disgraceful. Not to mention there was no one to say boo about being happy her parents allowed her to have an abortion.

CHOICE- may we all live long enough to see it return to the land of the free. (As noted above in another post: even though legal, trying to find a clinic is getting real tough; so we are losing our choices even while Roe v. Wade is still standing)

[Zookeeper]

145. Great post, PetraPooh!

The bottom line is: Women need to keep the right to CHOOSE.

BTW, I'm sure plenty of the anti-choice fundies would judge that having a hysterectomy means you should never have sex again since it's not going to result in procreation.

[Midlodemocrat]

153. Interesting point you make, but my experience has been the

opposite.

I am staunchly pro-choice...for others. I have never been faced with an unwanted pregnancy, and I can't presume to dictate to someone what they should do.

I discovered during the last election that most of my very good friends had abortions in college, but still were voting for Bush. On the grounds that he was pro-life. Hypocrisy? That doesn't begin to describe it.

[hlthe2b]

144. I read this a bit teary-eyed...

I've never had to face abortion as a personal decision, but I share your viewpoints, Skinner. And while I in no way wish to patronize you, it is extremely refreshing to see this viewpoint from a male. Thank you for being there for your friend. Thank you for understanding how difficult the decision, no matter how right it may be. Thank you for recognizing the courage it takes a woman to follow through. And, thank you for sharing with all of us. I was touched.

[derby378]

148. I gotta tell ya, Skinner - I used to be pro-life, myself

Yes, I protested at abortion clinics. Yes, I distributed pro-life literature. Yes, I even wanted charges brought against doctors who performed abortions.

But, on the other hand, no, I didn't believe in forcing women to have children they didn't want or couldn't support. No, I didn't want women to be forced to have children who were the products of incest and/or rape. And yes, I always supported abortion to save the life of the mother or to end the suffering of a terminally ill fetus who had no real hope for a life.

I guess you could say that within this pro-life advocate, there was a pro-choice advocate trying to get out. My future wife was of tremendous influence in showing me what the real parameters of abortion were. She done good.

[cynatnite]

157. Thank you, Skinner...I have never regretted mine...

It was a tough decision to make and the correct one whenever I look back on it.

I know I'm not a bad person and neither were the caring people who were with me. They showed understanding and compassion. No one passed judgment on us.

DU was the first place I had ever shared my experience. Before I never talked about it. I was too scared. The shame I used to feel disappeared once I spoke of it here.

I will never again be ashamed or fearful of speaking out...thanks to DU.

[bigwillq]

161. Thanks for sharing that Skinner.

:hi: :hug:

[Blue_Roses]

162. thanks for sharing this

:)