No-Fly lists: Anyone experience this first hand yet?

[QuettaKid]

I am wondering if there is a way to call the airlines ahead of time to find out if you are on one of these stupid lists.

[AngryAmish]

1. I'm on the list

Not the full-scale, never get pon an airline type but I cannot do electronic check-in or print my own boarding pass.

I am told the TSA has a program to get you off the list. I have not bothered yet.

[MADem]

10. I'm on that list too--the dreaded RED SSSSS!!!!

I get poked, prodded, and have my stuff tossed. No electronic check in for me, either--the "look" when you go to the counter.

I don't carry anything save a coat and a book on the plane--it denies the bastards the opportunity to toss my shit all over hell.

[LostinVA]

23. Me too -- and my mom

I'm also a member of the Democratic Socialists of America... that probably doesn't "help," either.

[Armstead]

25. Why are you on it?

Just curious.

[AngryAmish]

32. I'm not sure

I have a pretty common name. My father used to be somewhat associated with NORAID so maybe they figured I am guilty by association. Its no big deal, really.

I wonder if ex-cons get the runaround, tho.

[Marie26]

29. I'm not

I recently flew on a plane after losing my ID. :) They let me go ahead. Of course, that was before I started posting on DU, so who knows now? I might've made the Dangerous Radical list yet. It's really awful that they're just putting people on a list w/o notifying you as to why or how you can get off. Isn't that a violation of due process?

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. No experience (yet), but...

I know from what I've been told by others that:

* If you are presumed to be on the list, you will not be allowed to buy airline tickets on-line. I.e., if you can buy airline tickets on the web, you are not presumed to be on the list.

* Other than when you purchase tickets or check in for your flight, it is a violation of national security laws and therefore a felony for anyone to tell you whether or not you are on the list.

* If your name is on the list, you are presumed guilty until you can prove your innocence. You have no recourse to get off the list, no appeal, no rights whatsoever.

[MADem]

22. You can BUY your ticket on line, you just can't print out a boarding pass

You have to go to the counter, and get a boarding pass that has a big red S or a series of black OCR SSSSS's, or, in the case of Southwest, a checkerboard on it! I have a stack of boarding pass stubs with these distinctions on them! Then, you go and get your stuff tossed. Enemy of the State!

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. Thanks for the info

It might also depend on which list you are on, the "no-fly" list or the "harass them until they promise never to fly again" list. I don't think you can even buy tickets if you are on the first one.

Oh, and one thing I didn't put in my post above:

* If you buy tickets and latter are not allowed to fly, you are out the cost of the tickets with no legal recourse. The airline gets to keep your money, resell your seat, and laugh in your face as they make like highway robbers.

[MADem]

30. Ted Kennedy had already bought his ticket, and was denied boarding

at Logan a few years back. They told him NO, and they felt terrible about it, but they had to go through the motions out of fear that it was some kind of "test" of they system. It was absurd--the guy is one of the most recognized politicians in America. He had to call the White House to get it cleared up. He didn't think it was funny, either; in fact, he was pretty pissed off. You have to wonder if some jerk in the Bush Administration put him on the list, just to be an ass....

Of course, most of us don't have Andy Card's number in our wallet, so we can't call if we have a problem, and if we do get through, no one is going to listen to us...

[kestrel91316]

141. "You have to wonder if some jerk in the Bush Administration put

him on the list"...........gee, why would you think that??

My vote is on the "jerk in the Bush administration" being the chimpish guy with the big ears and dopey face..........

[FlaGranny]

94. For a couple of years now

I have been buying tickets on line for my cousin (who has no computer) and printing out her boarding passes. Interestingly, the last time, I could not print her boarding passes. She has a name that I would guess is NOT very common and she is not that much into politics. She has never demonstrated or even written a letter. She has not been searched either before boarding. Maybe some airlines are just discontinuing the on-line printing of boarding passes?

[kestrel91316]

140. Soon they'll make you wear the big red S on your coat.

Sort of like a yellow star, you know?

[MADem]

147. Yep, you are quite right...S is for

Security Risk? Shithead? Sucker???

We just can't be complacent, can we!

[xultar]

3. I have a feeling I will be on the list. If that thing about paying down

debts is true.

I mean * has effed up the economy so wouldn't that be smart?

[Texasgal]

4. Yes...

My 9 year old nephew was on the list! :eyes:

We missed our flight to New York because of it, we had to catch the next flight!!

They even took a very scared little boy into a room by HIMSELF to interrogate him! I was FURIOUS!!! I filed an official complaint and that's as far as it went!

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. OMG...your poor little nephew! He must have been scared to death!

How screwed up is that? They take a 9 year old little boy into a room to interrogate him?:grr:

[Texasgal]

8. Yep... they sure did!

The room was sound proof but had blinds, so I could see what they were doing. He kept asking them what he had done, he thought he was in trouble or something! :cry:

I guess after the whole debacle, the airline was pretty sympathetic, they gave him an ice cream sundae when we FINALLY got on the plane.

I was absolutely LIVID, it took me DAYS to get over that!

[MADem]

16. Wow--that's NEWSWORTHY

It's a better story than the INFANT on the list, because the kid is old enough to give the reporters a sound bite about his interrogation.

This, from a department that shakes suspicious powder OUT THE WINDOW when it arrives at their headquarters!!!!

"I wouldn't feel safe nowhere on this compound as an officer," former guard Derrick Daniels told The Associated Press. Daniels was employed until last fall by Wackenhut Services Inc., the private firm that protects a Homeland Security complex housing sensitive information.

An envelope with suspicious powder was opened last fall at the headquarters. Daniels and other current and former guards said they were shocked when superiors carried it past the office of Secretary Michael Chertoff, took it outside and then shook it outside Chertoff's window without evacuating people nearby.

The scare, caused by white powder that proved to be harmless, "stands as one glaring example" of the agency's security problems, Daniels said. "I had never previously been given training . . . describing how to respond to a possible chemical attack." http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/03/7homeland.html

[Texasgal]

19. Unfortunately...

This not so "newsworthy" this happens more than we would like to think!

My nephew has a very common name, I am sure he is not the only youngster to have been questioned! It's bullshit.. but it's COMMON! :mad:

[MADem]

21. Here's my irony--I have a name that is very similar to a senior

clown in the BushCo admin--not a famous name, but one TSA would know. But hey, I get the treatment!! Every time, without fail. For all they know I could be a beloved relative of this high ranking official!

I think these situations would make a great TV story--especially the grandmas, the old dude in a wheelchair, the infants, the children...I know they've covered it here and there, but I think a program where you can hear the stories of everyone, how they were treated, might interest people.

[QuettaKid]

20. ah, Wackenhut. A blast from the past. nt

ARTICLE "CIA COMPUTER GENIUS ALLEGES MASSIVE CONSPIRACY," MENTIONS DANNY CASOLARO, THE OCTOPUS, PROMIS SOFTWARE, EARL BRIAN, THE HAMILTONS, BUSH'S "MEETING" WITH ALI AKBAR HASHEMI RAFSANJANI IN PARIS, NAVY CAPTAIN GUNTHER RUSSBACHER - WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE FLOWN BUSH, WILLIAM CASEY AND DONALD GREGG . RUSSBACHER IN JAIL IN TERMINAL ISLAND FOR IMPERSONATING A U.S. ATTORNEY. ARTICLE ALSO MENTIONS MICHAEL RICONOSCIUTO, PETER VIDENIEKS OF THE JUSTICE DEPT, CABAZON INDIAN RESERVATION, AND JOHN P. NICHOLS. PROMIS SOFTWARE SOLD TO 88 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AS SORT OF "TROJAN HORSE," ALLOWING US TO ACCESS THEIR INTEL SYSTEMS. WACKENHUT COMPANY MENTIONED, GERALD BULL OF SPACE RESEARCH COMPANY, DEAD PHILADELPHIA ATTORNEY, DENNIS EISMAN, FRED ALVAREZ, ETC. TC TECHNICAL CONSULTANT 11/12/91 6,7

[file83]

104. I'm pretty sure that is ILLEGAL for the authorities to do that.

The kid is a minor and they aren't allowed to separate him from his guardian (you). Did you call the ACLU?

[Texasgal]

115. No it is NOT illegal...

This shit happens all of the time!

[file83]

118. Did you ask or the parents ask your nephew if he

was touched or handled in any inappropriate ways? That would be my biggest fear if I were the parent. :mad:

[Texasgal]

119. I could SEE HIM.

He was in a soundproof room with a window that had blinds OPEN. I could SEE him, I just couldn't hear what they were saying.

[file83]

120. Well - that's a relief. At least you could monitor that.

But still - that poor kid. Who knows what kind of shit they said to him to scare him. Fascists. I bet they questioned him about you or his parents. Who knows - this is disgusting and SO anti-American.

[Texasgal]

123. Oh yeah... I agree...

Funny thing is we have a poster here who thinks it's no big deal!! Crazy!

[file83]

124. Anyone that thinks

it's okay to scare/intimidate a 9 year old has completley forgot what it was like to be a 9 year old. Either that or they had much worse experiences as children had have no ability to empathize with others now. The last option is that they are sociopaths. It's sad any way you slice it.

[kestrel91316]

142. How do you know they didn't make sexually inappropriate

statements to him?

(just wondering - maybe an attorney would like to ask the same question - could be a nice lawsuit with hugely negative PR to make them rethink this crap)

[FearofFutility]

122. That is completely outrageous!

I'm FURIOUS! :mad: The security agents must have been pretty damn stupid. A 9-year-old! Oh, but his name is on the list, so we must interrogate him. :crazy:

[Texasgal]

125. Oh yes.... I was BEYOND furious!

Not only that, and something I failed to mention because of relevance was the fact that the whole reason why i was traveling with my nephew is because his father ( My brother ) had just had very serious spinal cord surgery from an renowned surgeon in New York. Not only was the poor baby worried about his Dad, the fucking TSA had to scare the piss out of him. :mad:

[FearofFutility]

148. That poor child. What a traumatic experience.

All in the name of fighting the terrorist. Unbelievable...

I hope that your brother and nephew are well.

[Daphne08]

149. That is outrageous! I am appalled!

[DiverDave]

151. They would NEVER, and I mean never, get my kids away from me

I would have been arrested for trying to keep him away from them...christ, what are these brain dead assholes thinking?
I would have gotten into alot of trouble, I know that.

[seabeyond]

5. i am going to see saturday. going to mexico. i have put out the hope

lol lol that i am on the list. lol. lets see if agent mike to me up on my offer to put me on the list. wink

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Have a good trip!

If you're on "the list" give 'em hell about it!:hi:

[seabeyond]

13. thank you. about everything about this trip i dont like

so it wouldnt bother me a bit to be denied. lol. hence my humor and half wish that i dont get to fly ever again. wouldnt bother me a bit. but my two boys and husband are so excited, ..... i am getting a bit into the trip.

thanks................

[jwirr]

9. Hell I am afraid to fly now. When I go to visit my sister I will

go by train or bus.

[pitohui]

12. ho-kay

to be honest i will continue to take my chances w. homeland security rather than some of the dubious characters i used to encounter on the bus

train don't go anywhere around here so that's out of the question

how do you bus or train to london or tokyo, i wonder?

seriously, one day you will need to fly, might as well do it now and find out that it isn't as bad as the scare-mongers want you to believe, just allow time and be patient

[jwirr]

14. My brother was searched before boarding simply because

he is a very tall muscular man and looks like he could take care of himself. Little did they know that he is a pussy cat. Gentle and loving. Harmless to no one. We still laugh about how stupid they are. Afraid of their own shadows and apparently 9 year old children.

[pitohui]

27. well i'm searched because i'm short and look like i won't give em shit

your brother was searched because random means random

i've been searched many, many times, and i am certainly not tall or muscular, i am a tiny little thing

if you fly, sooner or later you get searched, if you fly a lot, you get searched more because there are more times when you pass through security

at some airports such as NBO or FRA everybody is searched

got nothing to do with size or i for one would never be searched

i've had it all at different airports, the pat down, the open the bags and check every pocket, the open the bags and READ every little bit of writing, the swabbing for explosives, what have you, it happens to everyone if they fly enough, big hairy deal

it would be more disturbing if they didn't search certain groups, bad actors would then identify the holes in security, now i don't really care if drugs are smuggled in stinky diapers as they used to be, but i very much care if explosives are smuggled

so yes, even old people, even babies must be randomly searched

pretty simple really and taking it personally only raises your own blood pressure for no purpose

[MADem]

41. Random means random??? I am searched one hundred percent

of the time, and frequently hassled. And I fly a LOT.

There is no valid reason for it. I spent decades in service to the government, and my only crime is that I am a Democrat.

[MrMonk]

129. I've been flying a lot in the past few years.

I have never even been pulled out of line when "on business" (i.e., sharp suit, polished shoes, recently trimmed beard, etc.). When I'm less well-groomed, I'm always pulled out of line, and sometimes my stuff gets tossed. A sloppy beard seems to really set them off.

MrMonk - a short, bald-headed, sort-of-roundish middle-aged white guy, who has learned to trim his beard before heading to the airport.

[MADem]

146. It doesn't matter how I dress

Business, business casual, sloppy, enroute to a wedding...they just do not care. 100 percent...each time, every time. Since 9/11 I have never flown WITHOUT extra inspection, beyond what my fellow travellers receive, and I have flown a good deal.

[Hutzpa]

42. The trouble is.....you have no idea whose sick joke this is n/t

[pitohui]

11. they are not going to tell you ahead of time

if you have reason to believe you are on the list, then get to the airport in plenty of time to clear the extra security, 2-3 hours suggested

if you have a common name, that a bad actor might have used as an alias, there is a decent chance that your passport could be flagged in the system, it happened to hubby, took abt an hr to clear up, no problem making our connection back into the usa

you are not going to be flagged as a terrorist because you paid your bills, c'mon that is silly, in theory it's a few points off your credibility if you have huge outstanding debt but if they pulled everybody who owed money and didn't owe money out of the line at the airport, guess what, they would be pulling EVERYBODY out of line because you're going to fall into one of those two categories, now aren't you?

relax and enjoy your trip

we are not so all-important and fascinating to the fbi as we like to think


if you look at the people who have the most trouble w. the no fly list, over and over again, it's people w. common simple names like edward kennedy, david nelson, carl lewis, if you have a difficult name, you're going to be fine

[Texasgal]

17. Yes, I can agree with several points in your post.

My nephew has a very common name.

The only thing that I couldn't understand is why they interrogated a 9 year old... I mean, even with common name.... why scare the shit out of a little boy?

[pitohui]

31. well they can't really control his psychology can they?

if a little boy is going to be scared because an officer asks him questions then i don't know what they can do about that

some little kids do have separation anxiety and are scared when going off to doctor or to school or to field trips but ultimately the boy's state of mind is not really under the control of security

if his name pops up, they are required to clear him properly

if he is frightened by this, and i'm not sure why he was frightened, i don't know what they can do about it, maybe they should have lollipops like the doctor does

[MADem]

35. A nine year old child, though?? Come ON

How can they have a name without having an understanding of where that name came from? What individual is attached to that name? Surely, if they are looking for Joe Blow, white male around age thirty, they aren't looking for Joe Blow, 95 year old man in a wheelchair, or Joe Blow, kindergartener!

They are either not using discretion, and doing brain surgery with a hammer, in effect, or they are screwing with people to foster a climate of fear and obedience to authority. It sucks, it is wrong, and it makes us as a nation look like thuggish asses.

The doctor makes you better, and parents tell kids that ahead of time--and the parent can stay in the room when the doctor does his thing...when the cops rip you from your family, with no notice, warning or preparation, and toss you in a soundproofed room (why? So he can rat out his hippie parents???) that's traumatic.

[pitohui]

38. sigh, they are not allowed to use "discretion"

using discretion opens the door to security breaches

i am sorry you don't like it, i don't like it either, but i can understand it even if i don't like it

when you open the door to people using their "discretion" then you open the door to racial profiling, i would no longer be searched which is fine until the next swedish woman carrying a bomb for her boyfriend blows up the plane -- somewhich actually happened in the 70s

as i said in the other post, the reality is that when "discretion" was used, nobody wanted to check the baby's dirty diapers (would you?) and drugs were being smuggled that way, drugs fine, but what if it's a chemical explosive

if kids are excluded from search and questioning, then they will be used by the smugglers and the terrorists

these are bad guys, grok? they do not care if they blow up your kid, in fact, i bet they'd much rather blow up your kid than blow up themselves

if the name comes out of the hat, the person of that name must be screened

period

yeah, the system is shitty but it's better than the alternative of leaving major gaping security holes which would cause the smart terrorist or drug smuggler to target your baby, your son, or your elderly grandmother in the wheelchair

[MADem]

52. The girl was Irish, pregnant, and going to visit her future mother in law

in the Middle East--not Swedish. And she didn't pack her own bag. Now, THAT's a flag. Her boyfriend, the 'terrist,' had no intentions of having the girl meet his mother. He sent her off to die. She is the reason for the questioning: Did you pack your bag? Has it been out of your sight?

Doing a pat down is one thing, if they do it to EVERYONE. Taking a child off to a room for questioning without parents present is CREEPY.

And your assertion that names come out of hats is flat out WRONG. You surely cannot believe that some names come out of the hat a hundred percent of the time?

I am astounded in the face of increasing evidence that the system, which is, as you say, "shitty" that you continue to defend it. The smart terrist will find someone who passes the test, and use that name to slip through. But given that cockpits are secured, why go for a hard target? Look for the weaknesses, and go for those.

And if you feel safer because innocent people are being hounded, repeatedly, with no ability to clear their names, you'd better not. While they are roughing people up in the boarding line, THEY ARE NOT FULLY SCREENING THE CARGO IN THE HOLD. The people who service aircraft, from the food service types to the wrenchbenders, ARE NOT appropriately screened. It has been, and continues to be, a HUGE gap in security.

[Hutzpa]

59. Now here's where the truth lies.....

people who service aircraft, food providers they are not properly vetted, the smart terrorist will forever use this loophole to get what they want.

[pitohui]

65. because we can't do everything, do nothing?

i would like 100 percent screening of cargo also, one of the reasons i voted for john kerry

look, i would like a system that recognizes my greatness as a human being and lets me skip past all the security crap, but the fact of the matter is, since i don't know you and i don't know everyone else on the plane, in the interests of fairness, i believe that EVERYONE should be screened

some airports, such as NBO and FRA, do pat down everybody, unfortunately, when this was tried in usa, there was even more hysteria and screaming

equality is not to be tolerated here so the only answer is random screening so that terrorists can't predict who is going to be screened on any given day

saying that 9 yr olds or 90 yr olds should not be subject to screen just makes them a target

like it or not, fair play says that EVERYONE should be subject to screen

if you have a better idea, what is it?

[MADem]

87. Look, I have no PROBLEM with random screening

My problem is with being put on a list that subjects me to more intrusive measures than my fellow travellers, every damn time I fly. Without exception.

My better idea is this: put someone in charge of TSA that knows what the fuck they are doing.

[pitohui]

90. i agree we need better leadership at tsa

math tells me that if random is really random, SOMEONE will be unlucky and get picked every single time

practical tells me that your name is flagged for some other reason

to be honest, i think you have little to lose by writing your congresscritter abt this issue if you haven't already

[peacetalksforall]

82. They can eliminate discretion with a little programming. If the name

matches whatever their evil list contains, then they click again to get a birth date. Etc.

[revkat]

126. under 12 is supposed to be exempt

Homeland security rules state that people under 12 are not to be detained when their names are on the list. This was reported when the story came out about the infant. If the incident with the 9 year old is recent the security people were not "doing their job" they were violating regulations.

[Texasgal]

36. I detect your sarcasm and raise you

My nephew was scared because he was shuttled off to a room by himself and asked questions by Men he DID NOT know and without his Mother or Father or Aunt present. That is SCARY for a young child... do you think it was unreasonable to be afraid? Why?

Do you not think that something is terribly wrong with questioning a nine year old CHILD? He really looked like a terra-ist ya know... :sarcasm:

[pitohui]

43. see my above post

as a frequent flyer i don't want to be blown up

it matters not to me if the bad guy personally suicides or if he notices that kids are not screened and so he quietly drops the contraband in your kid's backpack, dead is dead

i don't see any alternative to questioning the kid alone if his name pops up, that is procedure, security is not allowed to just wave hands and make it up on the spot

a 9 yr old today is often carrying his own backpack

yeah, he has to be screened if his name pops up

it is sad but he'll get over it

[Texasgal]

45. I understand the need fo rthe TSA..

I am not arguing that fact. Just seems counter productive to question a child because he has a common last name. Doesn't the TSA have dates of birth? Seems to me that would be a MUCH better system, you know... instead of wasting EVERYONES time questioning a child or have a freaking INFANT on the list!

[pitohui]

47. apparently they don't always have a full description

in hubby's case they were able to get a full description of the person they were looking for and this caused much humor as clearly he was not of the same age, race, etc.

however, many times an alias is just a name, with v. little in the way of supporting information, so you would not have a birthdate, a non-existent person was never necessarily born

if all that comes up is a name and a state, then you have no alternative but to check ea. person of that name and state

i wish there was a better way, hey, i've been inconvenienced too

but i don't actually see a better way, do you?

the suggestion, just let it go, won't work for the reasons i gave above

[Texasgal]

49. Then maybe GET a full description...

Fix the system! That's my suggestion...

And really, being inconvinced was not really the issue, yeah...we missed our flight. No big deal, we got another one. The REAL issue was the interrogation of a nine year old child that had the piss scared out of him. He was taken from me and put in a room and had no idea WHY! That's the problem and I am concerned as to why you just don't see it that way. And your back handed comment about lolly-pops just shows ignorance.

[pitohui]

58. you have very unrealistic ideas about security

you would really want your flight delayed for weeks -- or months -- or years while the department of homeland security seeks a full description of the person of that name?

there are times when you are going to get information and, grok this, it is not going to be complete and full information

look, i've had BOLOs out on me, and i've read them later, and it was hilarious how wrong the descriptions were, i know of two cases personally where two different women were mis-identified as me and had security issues as a result

so you can have a full description and the full description can be wrong and you can make mistakes anyway

look, they are human, they are not all-knowing gods, they have to work on the information they have

i don't really understand why your son would be so terrified, at that age, of being asked questions by a security officer, if it scared the "piss" out of him, i am sorry, but unfortunately there is simply nothing to be done about it, if being unusually nervous was grounds for not being searched we'd all claim to be neurotics and skip the security procedures

i can see you are unable to understand that the officers are not psychic, they don't know you personally, they don't know your son, all they know is that they have a name they have been told to look for and here is the name and they are REQUIRED BY LAW to check it out

they are doing their job and you just making their job harder for them by pretending a 9 year old can't understand this w.out getting the vapors

i don't mean to sound sarcastic but i fly a lot and i don't want to get blown out of the air because everybody has a reason not to be searched, too young, too old, can't bend over to untie their shoes, got an implant, blah blah blah de blah, we all have some reason we're special and should be given privileges others don't get, well, guess what, we're not special, i'm not special, you're not special, your kid isn't special

equality means that EVERYBODY at the airport is subject to search, not just those "others"

[converted_democrat]

66. "you have very unrealistic ideas about security.."

And you don't?? Doesn't bother you a bit that a boy was traumatized so YOU can feel better, but you don't blink when someone mentions that they don't even check the baggage in the cargo hold?? Not to mention the employees/contractors who aren't even vetted.. Who has issues here with unrealistic ideas about security? Please..

[pitohui]

71. so do nothing because you can't do everything?

and you really think contractors are not vetted?

try to get a job w. catering under an assumed name and see how far you get

i would really be interested to hear your report of how it worked out

[converted_democrat]

77. Please..

I don't like "good Germans." Period. You stated down thread that it hasn't effected "your" flying.. Typical.. You don't care about others being hassled as long as it doesn't effect you, huh? Typical.. The cargo isn't beeing checked, but we should terrorize our children.. Jesus..

[pitohui]

80. i believe in equality

if it has become "german" to believe that ALL are equal and ALL are subject to law, i am proud to be guilty of the same

if you refuse to be subject to the same search that i am subject to, no, you shouldn't be allowed to fly or you can hire a private jet

everybody EVERYBODY on a commercial jet should be subject to the same requirements

fair is fair, and no some animals should NOT be more equal than others

[converted_democrat]

101. That isn't the point..

The point is if they were serious about security they would be attacking it from all angles, but they aren't.. They aren't serious about security..

on edit- Don't you think it's odd that in the war on terror, the only things that they are doing is taking away our rights and giving a hard time to people that won't lay down for *?? Don't you think that's odd? Don't you think it strange that they don't inspect the ship containers, and they don't inspect the cargo hold of planes?? They can terrorize an 8 year old and people that have opposing views to *, but they aren't securing our ports and nuke facilities, or the cargo of ships or planes? You don't think that's strange?

[MADem]

93. Hell, DATELINE and 20/20 do shows along those lines all the time!

I've seen at least three of them in the past few years, where they put some guy in the plane cleaning crew, and he goes all over the aircraft, unescorted, with hidden camera, without full clearance, and no one says shit to him!

[Texasgal]

99. Or remember the guy that packed himself in a box

and flew himself across the country?

Yeah... but the TSA would prefer to waste time with a little kid with a common name. :eyes:

[MADem]

145. I DO remember that,!!!!!

So much for safety and security!! If that guy had been ticked off and wearing a "happy vest" that craft would have been in extreme jeopardy.

It's like those hidden camera pervert shows where they troll the internet--no matter how often they do one of these exposes, the idiots do not catch on. These airport stories are replete with journalists hiring on as baggage handlers, cabin cleaners, ramp workers, or food service personnel, and despite the repeated SHAMING, the airport management or airlines never seem to shape up.

Every so often they inconvenience people to suggest that they are doing their job (oooh, the TERRIST Paula Abdul--Abdul, see, MUST be a terrist!!!--actually TRANSITED a secure area on the way to her PRIVATE jet, thus, there's DANGER afoot!)...but it's all smoke and mirrors.

And one day, the smoke could be coming from the uninspected aircraft cargo hold!

[Texasgal]

89. First off... If you had READ my post

It was my NEPHEW... Not my SON. I don't have kids.

Second, he didn't have a backpack or a carry-on! We checked his luggage. I however had a carry-on with some coloring books and other things to keep him occupied for the trip, funny... they never bothered to look into MY bag ( yes, it went through screening ) but they called him out and put him a sound-proof room. He had only the clothes on his back.

It seems time-consuming and a waste of resources to spend close to a half an hour to interrogate a CHILD before boarding a plane. If we really want the TSA to work for us, stupid shit like this is not going to do it.

I also realize that no one is special, my nephew certainly isn't, nor am I. I never asked for the princess treatment. I ask to have the rights of a nine year old child OBSERVED!

It appears that you and I will not see eye to eye on this issue, it's sad that you actually think nothing is wrong with what happened to my nephew. I hope it never happens to your kid or relative.

[pitohui]

92. well it has happened to me and my relative

and my answer is the same, big hairy deal, i expect to be treated like everyone else

yes, since you are not the parent, the security may have felt it necessary to talk to the child alone

i don't like it but at iah especially they are all on the gung-ho that all these kids are supposedly being kidnapped in/out of mexico or latin america, since you were not the parent, perhaps they felt a need to check on the kid alone

i agree we will never see eye to eye and i don't see anything particularly awful happened, i just don't get it

did this happen at bush? they were checking entire families for kid's paperwork in secondary one time i was there, talk abt chaos!

[Texasgal]

97. If they knew that I wasn't the Mother

Then why didn't they know that he was a NINE year old child that has done nothing wrong? The answer? They didn't know I wasn't his Mother, I have the same last name as he does, he's my brothers kid. :eyes: The only reason why he was flagged was because he has a common last name... that just proves that the TSA is wasting valuable time and resources.

And for the life of me, I cannot understand how you can think that there is nothing scary about being pulled into a soundproof room by people you do not know and being asked questions that you are told not to repeat with out your guardian present. In the eyes of a nine year old child, that's frightening!

Why do you think the airline coddled him when we got on the plane... FINALLY? It was because THEY KNEW he was scared and confused. They were sympathetic to what had happened. It was a BIG DEAL and I will always feel that way about it. Period.

[Blue Belle]

102. I'd be put on the NO FLY list AFTER if they did that to my nephew.

I'd be SO PISSED!! That poor kid... sitting alone in an Interrogation room being questioned as if he were a criminal!! Even criminals have an option of having an attorney present when being questioned - especially if they are a minor. I would have phoned everyone from the airline brass to my State Senator when I got home.

[LibertyorDeath]

112. Are you a TSA employee?

If not it's never to late to apply.

You have the perfect mindset for it imo

You could spend your days escorting 9 year olds away to be questioned because fair is fair.

[MADem]

57. How hard is it to search the backpack? Why drag the child off, unless

the goal is to foster a climate of intimidation?

Your argument just isn't holding up. That's why they have those big xray machines, to screen carry-ons. If they see something fishy, they toss the contents and go through them. Dragging a kid into a room accomplishes...what? Tell us about your hippie parents, kid!!! Or I'll smash yer gameboy!!!

He'll get over it??? It seems you've gotten over it--but I happened to like the principles upon which our nation was founded, and I am not ready to give them up so easily. Obedience to tyranny is not patriotism.

[pitohui]

60. the kid goes w. the backpack

it is supposed to be the procedure that you go w. all of your possessions, the backpack don't go in one direction and the owner of the backpack go in the other

we frequent flyers fought very, very hard to make sure we would not be separated from our possessions when we go to secondary

reason -- when backpack goes in one direction and passenger goes in another, you end up getting robbed

trust me, the kid would still be crying if his iPod had been lifted from the pack

we worked really hard to get this outcome, actually

pax going one way, bag going the other led to lots and lots of thefts just in new orleans airport alone

what you are objecting to is not tyranny but an improvement demanded by passengers, many of whom travel for business and have valuables in their possessions like laptop computers that don't need to be out of their sight

[MADem]

64. No, wait a minute, you said the reason the kid was questioned

was BECAUSE he could have something in his backpack. I said, search the backpack.

Before I wised up, I used to have to hand over my carryon aft of the screening machine, and they would pull everything out of it, and then shove it down the table for me to repack. Why did they drag the kid off? Why not just do that?

You can dress it up and call it a princess, but it IS still tyranny. Searching children is one thing, dragging them off to soundproofed rooms without a parent or guardian to secure their intersts, as a minor, is flat out wrong.

I fail to comprehend your priorities. They sure aren't Ben Franklin's.

[pitohui]

69. ben franklin didn't fly on commercial aircraft

i have no freedom if i am dead

yes, sometimes they pull everything out of my pack, what is the big deal as long as they are doing it in front of you? i just don't see how having someone get a look at my eye cream and vicky's secrets has any impact on my freedom of movement, however, calling for weaker security such that planes are raining down out of the sky a la 1972 would sure impact my ability to travel

may i ask you a simple question? how many miles have you flown this year in 2006? i've flown 50,000
so, yes, i am on the side of safety and getting to where i am going

easy for the "i take the bus" crowd to have other priorities

[MADem]

72. But do they drag you off to a room, like that nine year old???

You seem to be deliberately obtuse. I said that there is no problem in tossing the kid's backpack; the problem started when they separated a child from his family and questioned him in a soundproofed room without his guardians present.

I've flown plenty this year, both overseas and in the continental US, and every time I do it, it is a royal pain in the ass.

And I say, one more time, that you are NOT SAFE. What's under your feet? The cargo hold. Which, often as not, is NOT SCREENED. But if you think hassling the citizenry mitigates that fact, well, good for you. Have a nice flight!!!

[pitohui]

76. yes sometimes i've gone to secondary

if you fly a lot, who hasn't?

sometimes it has been thru my own stupid actions, not thinking, i took out a pair of binoculars and was looking at a plane, oops, i had already passed thru security but now i had to be secondary'd

mostly it has just been random

i can't put off my life until everything is perfectly safe, can you, i agree the cargo hold should be screened, i did what i could, voted for john kerry, expressed my support for this issue to dept. of homeland security, but you know what? the world don't rotate around pitohui and what i want, and sometimes you have to pick up and go on

partial, imperfect screening is better than no screening, it might not get the real terrorists, but it gets the copycats, the extortionists, the attention-seeking mentally ill

[MADem]

84. How would you like it if it happened EVERY TIME?

You don't get it--it happens EVERY TIME to some of us.

[pitohui]

88. hell i was searched 6 times in one airport

six times in about an hour, where did they even think i would get any contraband after the first 2-3 searches?

you just can't let it affect your mental outlook on life, you just can't

it looks like you are continuing to travel and not letting it stop you do what you want to do in life and i salute you for that

i wish i had a better answer but for me the best answer has been to refuse to let the bastards grind me down

[gaspee]

111. Who are you

Superman? 50,000? I haven't believed a word you've said, but said to myself, maybe I'm being too critical. I know better now.

[pitohui]

131. hell i know several people flown 100K by this time of year

i am v. frequent flyer but i am by no means superman

go across the pacific and the atlantic a couple, three times apiece, it adds up, ya'll

[Gormy Cuss]

40. What's truly bad about your nephew's case is the isolation.

If we lived in a civil country, the boy's parent or guardian would have automatically been allowed in the room for the interrogation -- not as a participant but as an observer and guardian of the boy's interests.

I wish people in this country would stop going along with every jackass ""security" measure imposed by the fear-based government we have now. If every passenger had a public hissy fit rather than went along this brain dead no-fly list procedure it would change. It's one thing to inspect a child or addled senior for hidden explosive devices. It's quite another to intimidate children by segregating them in a room away from their parents. Hell, the way most children are taught to fear strangers they must need to clean piddle puddles regularly in the interrogation room.

[Texasgal]

46. EXACTLY!

And the poster above thinks giving a fucking lolly-pop should suffice! :eyes:

What's next? Taking INFANTS into the interrogation room? " Hey Fred, looks like we've got a terrorist here, wonder what's in his diaper" :sarcasm:

[Hutzpa]

48. Well said my man.....listen up, this is some jack-asses sick

joke just to input fear into the masses. Ask yourself this question, if the Arabs where soppose to be this terrarist, why is it then they want an Arab nation to control the United States Port. Why?

:think:

[pitohui]

81. well here i agree

i think they should have allowed the mother or the adult traveling with him to go into secondary with him

i suppose they thought they were being courteous to not put the mother through secondary as well

i wonder if she ASKED

when my husband was secondary'd i asked if i could come along and they were happy to allow it but they would not automatically assume that someone is going to volunteer for extra screening, you know

[file83]

105. You'd think that the TSA is putting themselves in legal jeopardy

by isolating men in a room with a 9 year old boy - if ANYTHING happened to that kid in there they would get their asses sued to kingdom come.

[Hutzpa]

107. Thats where you're wrong, they cannot be sued......the

Law was passed to exempt airport officials from being sued. So sorry. :shrug:

[file83]

113. Well in that case, if I had kids, I would NEVER take them flying.

I wouldn't let my kid alone in a room with some fascist asshole. You'd have to be insane to stand for that. It violates all human parenting instincts.

[pitohui]

133. not clear to me if she asked

she says she could see them thru glass

when my hub was SSSS'd i volunteered to go with and there was no problem, i'm not saying this would always be the case, esp. if there was a question of why a non-parent was traveling w. a minor

you know, if a wicked step mom or aunt had kidnapped a child and vanished w. the kid into mexico or another foreign country we'd be just as angry

tsa just can't win, can they?

there is stuff they do i can't agree with, but taking a kid aside when he is with a non-parent and asking a few questions, i am not so sure that is one of them

[pitohui]

132. most times federal agents can't be sued

this is something i don't agree with but, yeah, most times federal agents in the performance of their duties can't sued unless it's truly, truly egregious

questioning a person whose name is on the list is not, by any definition, egregious

hate to say it, but this kid should have had my childhood, maybe he'd have a spine by age 9, if you are that terrified just by being asked some questions something is v. wrong

[SPKrazy]

139. What A Terrible Thing To Say!

Kids are different. Lots of kids would be scared at age 9 to be taken into a room by uniformed men and women and asked questions while their Aunt, who they were traveling with was with them.

Hell, I'd be scared! I don't know what their agenda is.

[kestrel91316]

143. They are tring to teach him to submit without question or

protest to authority, and to OBEY without hesitation.

[MADem]

26. If you make large payments, in the thousands, on your credit cards

that are out of the ordinary, you get flagged. There was a thread on it elsewhere.

It referred to this story: http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=RAISEALARM-02-28-06

They were told, as they moved up the managerial ladder at the call center, that the amount they had sent in was much larger than their normal monthly payment. And if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified. And the money doesn't move until the threat alert is lifted.

Walter called television stations, the American Civil Liberties Union and me. And he went on the Internet to see what he could learn. He learned about changes in something called the Bank Privacy Act.

"The more I'm on, the scarier it gets," he said. "It's scary how easily someone in Homeland Security can get permission to spy."

Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up. The Soehnges were apparently found not to be promoting global terrorism under the guise of paying a credit-card bill. They never did learn how a large credit card payment can pose a security threat.

But the experience has been a reminder that a small piece of privacy has been surrendered. Walter Soehnge, who says he holds solid, middle-of-the-road American beliefs, worries about rights being lost.

"If it can happen to me, it can happen to others," he said.

[pitohui]

33. no you're not

i've made huge pay-offs of my bills and on my house over the years and i fly just fine

i know many, many people who have oodles and oodles of CTRs over the years and they all fly just fine too

one scare story, probably not honestly reported, and people are making a meal of it

i have certain experience in this particular area and if this is the biggest thing you have to worry about in life, you must have died and gone to heaven already your life is so smooth

[MADem]

37. Your name must be Laura Bush then

Did you read the link I provided? Obviously, you make huge payments all the time, or you are somehow exempted, perhaps because there are other criteria, more sinister, that they are using. The paradigm is set up at HSA that if you make a big payment, you get flagged.

I know I am on the list, and I can't get off. And I have held some of the highest clearances this country dishes out. But I have also paid off some big bills, and I am a Democrat.

[Marie26]

39. Not to be annoying

But this was sort of debunked on another thread.

[pitohui]

44. yeah but people would rather live in fear

what do you do?

i have certain experience and the other guy has a link so, yeah, i'm supposed to believe the link, don't think so

the federal gov't has received dozens of CTRs on me personally, and millions upon millions of CTRs and suspicious activity reports on people all over the nation, and we're still flying

[MADem]

53. Sort of? Which thread?

I live this hassle every damn time I fly. So obviously someone at TSA didn't get the word that it's been "debunked."

[Marie26]

56. That's too bad

I'm sure you're being hassled. I just meant that the story about DHS red-flagging based only on CC payments probably isn't true. If they hassled people only based on large CC payments, that would annoy a whole lot of Republicans, wouldn't it? But they do hassle & red-flag people for other reasons. If you're an activist or involved in anti-war causes, I could see them maybe doing it for that reason.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x597226

[MADem]

61. Well, I have never gotten a damn parking ticket, and yet, a poster

above says he or she has had BOLOS (be on the look out's) posted on him or her, yet has no problems flying?????

That guy who had the credit card problems moved from Texas to Rhode Island. Perhaps the gubmint was pissed because he deserted his red state for the librul northeast???? I posted a link to the story upthread....

[pitohui]

63. BOLOs issued by private detectives

my activities were perfectly legal but you're going to discover that some people don't like even perfectly legal activities

those people and businesses are free to hire private security and to issue BOLOs

it has never impacted my flying in the slightest

no more has paying my credit card bills, car note, etc. when i had the good fortune to come into some extra dinero

[MADem]

67. Well, then your BOLO argument is no good--the way you phrased

it in your earlier post, it appeared that your name was in gubmint databases, and clearly, it wasn't.

[pitohui]

70. it is in DOJ databases, yes, of course --as is yours if you use $$$

you are mixing up two different posts i think

i'm in the gov't data base, as are most people who have used significant sums of cash since 1986, because of various reporting regulations

the CTR (currency transaction report) does not mean you committed any crime, it just means you received or deposited cash in sufficient amounts to trigger reporting requirements, i have lots of CTRs because i used to be in a cash business and so my cash was tracked, it never impacted my ability to fly altho there can be significant delays complying with the paperwork when exiting or entering the usa w. cash, mainly because they don't always have the proper forms in the proper place and have to run around finding them

how interested are you really in all the technicalities? i think i am starting from ABC w. someone who has not one clue about how much paperwork really exists on file about you w. the federal gov't and so you are overly fearful abt such things as paying your bills getting you on a list

[MADem]

74. I'm talking about your BOLOS--if you were wanted by the cops

as opposed to a private detective, that fact would be recorded. I'm not talking about your cash transactions.

But you knew that.

And not that it matters, I pay my bills, and have no debt. Perhaps that's what makes me an enemy of the state.

[pitohui]

78. i pay my bills also

and i'm not an enemy of the state

i don't actually quite know why you're so angry or what you're trying to say

you seem to think that there is a special class, perhaps of 9 year olds and retired military and infants in diapers, who should be special and not subject to the same laws as the rest of us

i believe in equality

everyone should be subject to search at the airport, given time and political realities that don't permit this to happen, then random searches are the next best thing

i am sorry you are not special and believe you me i am even more sorry that i am not special

but that's the way it is, how is getting angry about it going to help?

[MADem]

83. If you believe in equality, then you should get the same treatment I

do--100 percent searches, and the big red S on your boarding pass. EVERY TIME YOU FLY.

Getting angry is what innocent Americans NEED to do. For the life of me, I cannot understand why you think searching children and innocent, everyday Americans is OK?

I have NO OBJECTION to being the subject of RANDOM searches. I object to flying more than a hundred times since the WTC and getting this shitty treatment EVERY time, when my fellow travellers are NOT subjected to the same treatment. EVERY SINGLE TIME--Red S, no automatic check-in, taken aside, bags tossed. Wands, patdowns, the whole nine yards. It isn't random, it is EVERY TIME. How hard is that for you to understand? You seem to be deliberately obtuse on this subject, and I am not sure if you are just not comprehending, or what?

[converted_democrat]

121. What is wrong with you?

Our country is being jack booted, and you're okay with it? No wonder you aren't on the list..

You keep saying security over and over again.. If you think it's all about security than how do you rationalize the fact that they aren't checking the cargo holds? Why aren't they vetting the contractors properly? Your position holds no water.. None.

[MADem]

68. I am a retired senior military leader

My only crime is that I am a Democrat.

[pitohui]

73. look they are not no-flying every democrat

i'm a registered democrat and i'm a far more dubious person than you i'm sure and i fly just fine

if they no-fly'd every democrat the entire country would shut down and this would be bad for bidness

i can't tell from here why you are no-fly'd or even if you just had a bad experience or two and then got too fearful to fly

how many miles have you flown in 2006?

[Hutzpa]

75. Explain dubious n/t

[MADem]

79. I don't count miles

Two trips to Europe, seven trips within the US (four west coast, three DC) and one trip to the Carribean--and that is just in the last three months.

So I guess I am not "fearful to fly" as you suggest. (The logic you used to come up with that is completely escaping me, frankly.)

And if you are a "far more dubious person" than I am, then you should realize that there is something horribly wrong with this picture. Our government is behaving in an arbitrary manner, at worst, or they have a more nefarious agenda.

I fly often, and have since 9/11. And I am pulled out of line EVERY TIME. I get the red S on the boarding pass, and the usual bullshit. It's harassment, plain and simple.

[pitohui]

85. ok here's what you can try

my experience has been that almost everyone i know offering these arguments has been an infrequent flyer

since you are a frequent flyer, you need to sign up with a loyalty program that does count your miles, even if for some reason you can't use them, i've been told and i noticed it myself that if you are an elite in a loyalty program it does cut down on some of the screenings although it can't eliminate them, but it offers a nice record that you have flown plenty w.out incident

even when you are pulled out for extra screening, because you are able to use the first class/elite line, at least you have extra time to go through the process and i think maybe they are nicer about it too (well maybe not at CDG hahahaha)

you are not being harassed for being a democrat, that is just silly, you know, do you have any idea what the actual reason is? common name, getting flagged because of a dispute w. an airport employee in the past, etc? why would they harass YOU in particular? there is a process for contacting tsa abt clearing your name but i haven't heard that it does much

[MADem]

91. I don't fly the same airlines all the time

I don't like the idea of "loyalty programs." Pain in the ass, and sounds un-American, to me, frankly!

And half the time I travel coach. But hey, that's BushCo for ya--terrists should fly first class, that way they won't get hassled! And I am not in the habit of hassling airport employees--I have several relatives in the industry.

I should not have to beg my government to treat me like everyone else.

There may come a day when you feel the pinch as well. Don't think that because you aren't getting this sort of treatment now, that you won't get it in future.

[pitohui]

95. sign up for loyalty programs anyway

look i am trying to help you

if you are determined to clutch your problems to your heart, what can i do?

each time you fly a different airline, sign up for their loyalty program, it takes all of five minutes, it's free, it just isn't that hard and it MAY not be guaranteed to change things but MAY show that you are a reasonable person just looking for a deal like everybody else, you can travel coach and still get credit for miles in most programs, in any case, i am not advising you to do this for miles, i am advising you to do this because some other people including myself who have done this have seen some relief

trying not to stand out in the crowd is not "begging" it is just common sense

the nail that sticks up gets hammered

life is too short to fight reality

since you are already secondary'd every time you have nothing to lose by in addition writing (politely, not begging but not screaming either) to your representatives and to the tsa to see what might be done to help you

i am very limited in what i can do, because the small things i have done to help myself -- joining a loyalty program so the airline knows who i am and also just not getting vexed when i am searched -- have worked well enough for me

[MADem]

98. The nail that sticks up gets hammered????

Good lord, I might as well race down to town hall and switch my party affiliation to GOP, then.

I see that there is no reasoning with you. You have a "go along, get along" approach to life.

The Germans did, too, when Hitler came to power, and see where that got them?

I didn't spend half my life in uniform defending this country to see it come to a place where the only way one can stay safe is to "not stand out in the crowd." America is a nation of INDIVIDUALS, and I intend to fight what you call "reality" because it isn't reality--it's FASCISM.

[Hutzpa]

103. Correctomondo!!!!!! n/t

[pitohui]

134. it's a joke, friend

cripes, i was hoping you'd recognize the old quote and get a chuckle out of it

it's japanese by the way, not german

but yeah as a practical matter why aggravate security when you don't have to?

i want all good people to be able to travel

we all wish the world were different but in my lifetime (not just since 911) it has always been a matter of the nail that sticks up gets hammered, we tease the japanese for this saying, but we've been no different since the mccarthy era, if you wanna travel, you got to at least somewhat play the game

let me ask you this -- are you more effective if you can play along and travel efficiently or are you more effective raging against the perceived excesses of airport security?

i'm guessing you are more valuable to all of us if you can travel freely and focus your attention on other matters

by the way, where the germans got, been there lately, i have -- richest country in the world, makes usa look sick and they live longer too

there ain't no justice in this world, we have to pick our battles

i am not your enemy

i want you to be able to travel

i just wish i had better answers and more pleasing answers but since i don't i prefer to be honest

[MADem]

144. I feel sorry for you, frankly

If that is a joke, it isn't funny. Sincerely, it's quite sad to read that from someone on a progressive forum.

You're advocating giving in to the government, letting the government run our lives. That's not what our Constitution says. It doesn't say, "They, the Government"--it says "WE, the PEOPLE."

Your attitude is defeatist. Play along, and travel efficiently? That may work for you now, but what happens when they come for you? If this, our basic liberty, is not a battle worth fighting, what is?

A minister, one of those Germans, in fact, wrote a poem along those lines:


Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

When they came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

And I don't agree with your attitude or impressions of Germany--they're every bit as fat and angry as we are. By no means is it a utopia.

You have every right to have the opinion that you have, but again, I feel sorry for you. You've given up on the basic foundation of our nation--our liberty. Who will you call for, when they come for you?

[converted_democrat]

110. "the nail that sticks up gets hammered"

Are you really going to try and tell me again that you aren't a "good German?" How pathetic.. I refuse to live life on my knees.. You should try it sometime..

[file83]

106. Actually, if you've been doing that on a regular basis then you are okay,

but if you pay one above an "average" percentage over normal - you are flagged by the DHS. I read a story about this not to long ago: Payments raise Red Flag with DHS

[Hutzpa]

51. Its all about control, thats what this is about....

In England, they have been dealing with terrorist for solong that no of this bullshit occurs, they have the IRA's over there, but never have you heard that they have to red flag you for paying too much or just because you have the wrong name, I keep saying this and i will say it again somebody somewhere is making alot of money from all of this bull crap that they keep feeding the American public. People just need to wise up!!

[pitohui]

96. actually MUCH more extensive screening in europe

when is the last time you flew out of england, i wonder?

please let me introduce you to AMS (amsterdam), LGW (london gatwick), CDG (paris), and the champion of them all FRA (frankfurt germany is the largest airport in europe)

at least when i fly out of usa airports i am not expected to tell my whole life story or to get patdowns just because i used the freakin lady's room

europe is a very poor comparison, my friend, their airport security is far far FAR more aggressive and probably for good reason, but if you don't like flying in the usa, i sure don't recommend europe

[Hutzpa]

100. I was referring to making large payments

on CC, why should paying off your CC be a red frag. Yes in Europe they search but its random, but surely they do not take 9year olds away from their parents. Surely, asa matteroffact Europe has had searching in place well before 9/11 so its nothing new over there, they've always done random search which i don't have problem with, the issues here is kids, elderly when are they going to use their individual discretion. I still maintain that its somebody big sick joke, to terrorize the west on security, while China the far East continues to blossom.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. Large payments MAY be flagged.

Not will, but may. There is considerable discretion when the transaction is less than 10K. That's why the anecdotal reports posted on earlier DU threads are meaningless. If I paid $6000 in one lump sum on my credit card it might not be flagged because I have a pattern of paying large amounts. If you pay $20-50 per month and suddenly come up with $6000, your transaction may be flagged just as it was described in that article. It's a feature of the Bank Secrecy Act and intended to uncover money laundering.

If it is flagged, then Vaterland Security is notified because they're the agency that has jurisdiction now. It's just speculation whether they can use this to trigger other scrutiny such as a no-fly listing. Whether you are on the no-fly list because of this, or whether your transactions come under closer scrutiny because you're on the no-fly list, no one outside of HSA is permitted to know.

[file83]

108. It's not the amount per se, it's the percentage ABOVE normal that will

get you flagged by DHS. It's just one of many ridiculous excuses for them to monitor our lives with the end result that they just end up hastleing us.

[Deja Q]

130. You mean the desire to save rather than spend is a sign of being terrorist

Good grief.

Well, I'm still working to pay off my debt and do what Dick says: To save.

You'd think people with NO CREDIT HISTORY who always pay in cash would be scruitinized more carefully.

[pitohui]

137. and you would think right, toad

the risks and evils of paying off your credit card have been highly, highly HIGHLY exaggerated on this site

hell i paid off an entire house and i had CTRs out the yin-yang, yes, i have been extra-searched and screened -- i suspect not because of any fear of terror but because they are checking for drugs -- but ultimately i did fly

people are saying they are on a "no fly" list and then saying they did fly, in one case, the dude is saying he flies frequently, that is not a "no fly" list, clearly he is in fact flying, a nuisance, yeah, but it is not interfering with the man doing what he wishes to do

[John Q. Citizen]

28. So the point of the list is to keep people with common names tied up?

That seems so productive. (Not)

The list is pure totalitarianism. It serves no purpose other than a political one.

I spoke with the woman checking out my groceries at the market and she told me she was on the list because she had been working in a biology lab in Central America in connection with studies at a University and had returned to the US shortly after 9/11 and tested positive for chemicals.

Now her right to travel is severly impeded, as measured by most 21 century 1st world standards. She's not a Senator so on the list she will stay, until someday in the future when the people wake up and throw out the tyrants.

Talk about bad government...

Talk about represive government...

[pitohui]

34. it ain't the purpose, it's what happens in practice

i am telling you what happens in practice

don't shoot the messenger

if you have a common name, you need to allow more time, i never said it was fair or that i liked it, i said it is what is

as far as the lady from central america, she can travel just fine, she needs to get to the airport early (2 hrs early) to allow time for having her bags swabbed and tested for explosives, i've had this done several times, it takes about five minutes, however, best to get there plenty early in case there are other people in line

her right to travel is not so much impeded as her courage has apparently been affected

lots of people have used the wrong hand lotion and tested positive for nitro, guess what, they're still flying

[AlCzervik]

15. i'm leaving for London in early April, i'll let you know.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. No, the whole no fly list is to harass political opponents. If they were

truly in place for security they would arrest terrorists when they came to the airport, not tell them they can't fly.

It is an entirely ill-logical and useless process designed to oppress and nothing more.

It is the first step in removing the right to travel. If you can have a no fly list can you have a "no bus or train ride list" just as easily and for just as poor of an excuse for a reason."

[pitohui]

50. they do arrest people

they do arrest and/or deport people, happens every single day

in the usa, if they don't have sufficient evidence to press charges, they are not supposed to arrest, it is an unfortunate fact that we have billions of people in the world, probably a billion of them who fly at one time or another and most of them have the same or similar name as someone else

you can't just arrest every edward kennedy who shows up at the airport just because the name edward kennedy is on the list, better to do a thorough search and if they have not arrived at the airport in sufficient time to be searched well then they are not going to fly but it doesn't mean they should all be thrown in jail right off the bat

the primary purpose is not to harass, i see where it can easily be abused to harass, but the primary purpose is safety

in the 1970s, there were dozens and dozens of copycats, there was practically a skyjacking of the week, you cannot do w.out airport security, maybe we can't keep out all of the terrorists but we can do an excellent job of keeping out virtually every copycat and extortionist

[converted_democrat]

116. "the primary purpose is safety"

If that is true, why aren't they securing the cargo holds? Why aren't they securing our borders? Why aren't they checking the shipping containers that are coming into our country? Why aren't they securing our nuke facilities, and our ports?

Stop rationalizing for them.. This is what they use to harass activists and anyone that doesn't agree with *, and it gets people used to the police state mentality that's being pushed down our throats.. If they were serious about security they would be taking steps to make the country more secure.. They aren't doing that.. Stop making excuses for them..

[July]

150. IMO, they are only "serious" about making a show that they care about

security. Harrassing passengers is a lot cheaper and more obvious to the sheeplike public than those other measures you mention, and it doesn't piss off corporations involved in shipping, chemical and nuclear plants, and ports work.

That's the Republican MO. Pledge of Allegiance "outrage" (it's back, BTW, just in time for the elections). Flag-burning amendments. Legislation proposals concerning "the sanctity of marriage" or gay rights. Total freebies for Republicans -- lots of PR, no corporate money on the line. Why would they support security measures that actually cost something, when they can show ordinary Americans every day at airports across the country that they're "doing something"?

[file83]

114. EXACTLY. You nailed it.

Nice to see I'm not the only one that has taken the "red pill". (Matrix reference)

[spinbaby]

54. Remember those evil commies?

Back in the 50s and 60s, whenever they told us about the evils of communism in school, they would always emphasis that one of the evil things those bad people did was to restrict travel by making people show papers.

[pitohui]

86. we all have to show papers to travel

like we didn't have to show passports to travel out of the usa, i guess they relied on the fact that most americans except in military never left the country in those days so wouldn't catch them in the lie

[file83]

109. I remember that too. Now, with the new TOLL systems they are setting up in

Texas as a pilot program - traveling will now become VERY expensive.

It's called the "Trans-Texas Corridor":

This $6 billion toll road is being built to relieve gridlock between the Dallas-Fort Worth area and San Antonio. In December 2004, Macquarie-Cintra partnered with Zachary Construction of San Antonio to successfully propose building the highway at no cost to taxpayers and to pay $1.2 billion in fees in return for collecting tolls for the next 50 years.

Once they prove the "success" of the project they are going to start rolling it out across the nation. You'll even have to pay just to cross the toll road. They are blocking neighborhoods in Texas so that some people can't even travel a mile in any direction without paying a toll. It isn't operational yet - but they are setting it up. Of course, tons of people are protesting it as well - one of the reasons being that the PRIVATE company that will be running these toll operations is from Spain.

Here is just one article about it: Toll Road's 'foreign' tag stirs unease

Notice how this isn't being covered by the MSM? Big Brother is hard at work...

[pitohui]

135. sounds like new jersey!

crap i can't believe the yankees tolerate it, go a mile and there's another freakn machine w. its hand out for my small change

[funkybutt]

55. Wouldnt be surprised if calling to ask puts your name on the list n/t

[GliderGuider]

117. Don't know, and will never find out

My girlfriend and I have agreed that we will not fly into or otherwise set foot on American soil until this insanity comes to an end. No American vacations, no changing planes in O'Hare or JFK, no driving shortcuts through Michigan. Your country is just too damned dangerous right now. I have an Eastern European name and we're both active NDP members, so why take chances? So far we're making exceptions for overflights if there are no alternatives, but we will not overfly either if at all possible.

Do you have any idea how bad it sucks to think this way about your neighbours?

[Marie26]

127. Wow

It's just amazing that America is thought of almost as an Iron Curtain country. Are things really that bad?

[GliderGuider]

128. One of my personal friends is Maher Arar

So the answer to your question is yes. I've crossed Iron Curtain borders before - Czechoslovakia, Ukraine and Russia, all in 1968. In 1958 I stood at the wire in West Germany looking in at the East, watching a patrol with automatic weapons and a dog sweep the ploughed ground on the far side. I never felt a tenth of the trepidation I felt the last time I presented my passport to a U.S. Customs & Immigration officer.

[pitohui]

136. that is shitty what happened to him

however i am actually a usa citizen, there are people every day in usa who are imprisoned, some even put on death row (ever see the thin blue line?) for the crime of basically being mistaken for someone else, i have neighbors still in prison for a crime they didn't commit, look it is awful, i can't deny there are terrible injustices here, if you expect me of all people to deny this you've got the wrong chica

i used to feel as you did just crossing from louisiana to texas (again, see the thin blue line if you wonder why) but life is too short, yes, there are horrible bad evil people in texas but they are a tiny minority and i can't live my life assuming that everyone in given state or given foreign country is out to get me

as a practical matter the overwhelming majority of visitors to the usa are in no danger whatsoever and you just can't live your life in fear that an extremely unlikely event like that is going to crush and overwhelm you

i prefer to attempt to give useful advice so that good people can continue to travel, ok, we all get a little nervous at times, but you cannot give into fear you just can't

[GliderGuider]

138. Part of it is fear, but a good deal of it is anger and outrage

You have allowed your country to be betrayed into the hands of capricious thugs. I have no need to visit the United States, so I won't. I feel that visiting would both put me at risk at the border and tacitly condone what you have become by supporting your country with my money. I won't do that. When you get that spineless bunch of weasels in the party this site is named for up off their collective Chamberlainian asses, mobilize the people who still remember what justice means, and take back your country - then I'll come and visit again. Until then I will watch from afar with the rest of the world as you trash what's left of a once majestic reputation and nuke Tehran for good measure. Nope, this Daniel is staying out of your den.