"isms"

[GaYellowDawg]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get completely roasted for this, but here goes anyway.

I understand the idea that racism and sexism are about power, and that these concepts - to many on here - automatically disqualify anyone except white people from being racist, and automatically disqualify sexism as something that can happen to men. Whenever I hear conversations like that, I feel like there are some on here who would be very quick to label me as a complete piece of shit because I'm a white male. While I'm very painfully aware that for most of history, white males have just about cornered the market on labelling like that, it doesn't mean that I do, and it doesn't mean that it's right to return it. Just because many other white males have been guilty of that kind of crap doesn't mean I am, and I refuse to take the responsibility and shame for other people's actions.

I think in the midst of these conversations, it's important to keep in mind that there are many men who aren't sexist, and many whites who aren't racist, and many white males who are neither racist nor sexist. I do not pretend to know what it is to be a victim of racism or sexism, but I also think that it's important to keep in mind that given the opportunity, there would be plenty of racist non-whites out there and plenty of sexist women. As long as there is such a thing as power, abuse of power will exist right alongside it, no matter what sex or ethnicity holds it, so I think it's more important to attack the structure than anything else.

Human beings exist as a continuum. Some of us are extraordinarily good. Some of us are extraordinarily bad. Most of us fall somewhere in between. That applies to everyone. EVERYONE.

[madeline_con]

1. "... disqualify anyone except white people..."

I know black racists.

Also, the "reverse racism" ism. Pretty stupid in that it implies that non-whites can't be racist. Racism is just racism, regardless of who's doing it to whom.

[bbinacan]

2. Why would you get roasted?

You make a valid point.

[bloom]

3. The trouble as I see it is

that there are plenty of people - some of them on this board - who have no clue or don't care that they are participating and enjoying in activities that seem completely sexist to many women and probably rather a few men, as well.

Plus I see it the issue as societal thing where more and more men (and some women) are going along and embracing a sexist mentality as if it were normal - or nothing to think about. And furthermore - the societal meme is to laugh it off.

Some of who have been around for awhile don't see the trends as a positive thing.



And the men who insist that women are sexist sound really clueless.


But I sympathize with you that you are not a victim of anything. (just kidding :) )

[Solon]

9. The problem probably comes in when some of us don't know...

what activities or structures are sexist, subtle ones anyways. I mean, if I'm accepted at a job, for whatever reason, its certainly possible that I was chosen over a woman or a minority. That bothers me, for obvious reasons, because even with Affirmative Action laws etc. minorities and women are underrepresented in both the workplace and education. The same is true for payscale, etc. I recognize that, even told you what happened when I did, but what other activities are sexist? Beyond horrible jokes, uses of language in certain ways(the only form of bitch is a female dog, at least scientifically :)), and things like lack of law enforcement when it comes to rape, domestic violence, and sexual harrasment, what else is there(honest question)?

[RoyGBiv]

4. The problem with words ...

The problem here is that the meaning of these words has become dilluted and confused. Two people in a conversation using the term "racist" may or may not be talking about the same thing. To make matters worse, this confusion of meaning has become so convoluted and pervasive that people using the terms will switch meanings in the midst of a discussion, depending on the point they are wanting to make. Often, these people don't even realize they are doing it.

For example, a Mexican immigrant co-worker has talked with me about one of her uncles, whom she describes as "racist against black people." Is that what she really means? Upon hearing her description, one familiar with the proscriptive meaning of the word "racist" realizes quickly that she does not mean her uncle is a racist. She means her uncle is incredibly prejudiced and a bigot. He won't eat in restaurants where black people are cooks, for example. She doesn't like her uncle and finds his behavior abhorrent and wanted to make that point. This same person who spoke of her uncle being a racist said at another time that in the United States, Mexican immigrants could not, by definition, be racist. She said this in the context of a "diversity training" class all employees were compelled to attend, after a white man in the class said something about people of all races having racist attitudes about certain groups and that he felt Spanish-speaking people were being racist by changing the language they are speaking to one he did not understand while he was involved in a conversation with them, presumably to hide what they were saying from him. Her point at that time was that this is not racist behavior, rather rude behavior not at all related to "race."

Now, I could really confuse things and start talking about racialists, which is a related but distinct concept not directly related to notions of power. I personally consider myself an anti-racialist, in a nutshell a person who believes the very concept of race is nothing but a social construction that should be abandoned entirely. Many very good people, crusaders for equal rights in fact, are in fact racialists because they find the concept of race itself has scientific meaning and value.

[LSdemocrat]

6. Indeed. The vagaries of the English language

What really is the definition of a word? Is it the dictionary version? Or is it the definition that most people think it means?

[TahitiNut]

5. Sadly, according to some ...

... a man is incapable of knowing that he's sexist. This is, of course, the final panel of a wall erected to totally forestall any reasonable communication. That it's provably fallacious seems immaterial to those embracing this attitude.

I find it astonishing that any sane person who calls themselves a 'progressive' or 'liberal' would contend that men who support a pro-choice agenda are 'recovering' sexists (like alcoholics, always so) and women who support an anti-choice agenda are immune from becoming sexist.

I think it must really takes a lot of effort to start with a relatively healthy brain and arrive at those positions.

[Betsy Ross]

7. "New age sensitive guy"

We know you're out there.

[Peter Frank]

8. The best of us (humans)...

(Though your logic seems somewhat convoluted & bifurcated, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not you're trolling.)

..."attack the structure" by superseding it -- and don't look back to see it dissolved in your wake until you're done.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Some thoughts...

"I'm pretty sure I'm going to get completely roasted for this, but here goes anyway." I would hope not; since you presented your opinion in a non-offensive way. I feel you are looking for others honest opinions. I can appreciate it.

I understand the idea that racism and sexism are about power, and that these concepts - to many on here - automatically disqualify anyone except white people from being racist, and automatically disqualify sexism as something that can happen to men. Whenever I hear conversations like that, I feel like there are some on here who would be very quick to label me as a complete piece of shit because I'm a white male....

You are correct on many levels. "-ism" is about power, institutionalized and societal. You are also correct that some misuse those words ending in "-ism." The most common misuse is that racism is seen as a "one way street." However, as there are many "races" (I only see one...the HUMAN race), racism can be used by all races, including those who traditionally are victims of racism. You are also correct in that some will judge you on the fact that you are a white man and see you as a "complete piece of shit." People who act like that are prejudiced and bigoted. The issue that men cannot be victims of sexism is also wrong. While as men can not be victimized by women because of his sex (he can be discriminated because of his sex by women), men can be victims of sexism by other men!

So what am I saying? "-isms" happen when the victim is of "equal or lesser status" than the perpetrator. This is not just a personal belief, but one held by many social scientists and diversity 'experts.' The idea of those of "equal" status as victims was introduced not long ago, some do not believe this. In less confusing verbage... "Men can be sexist toward other men and women. Women can be sexist to other women, but not men (although they can be discriminatory, even bigoted). Whites (at least in this country, perhaps the world over, that's another discussion) can be racist toward all ethnic groups (races), but they are only victims of racism when the perp is also white. Blacks can be racist toward other Blacks and other 'races,' except whites (although they can be discriminatory, even bigoted). It becomes less clear as we 'descend' the power structure of race in this country. Can Hispanics/Latino/as be racist toward Blacks? According to social models, not as of yet.

...While I'm very painfully aware that for most of history, white males have just about cornered the market on labeling like that, it doesn't mean that I do, and it doesn't mean that it's right to return it. Just because many other white males have been guilty of that kind of crap doesn't mean I am, and I refuse to take the responsibility and shame for other people's actions.

I agree with you. While our 'culture' (I am also a white male) has been responsible for great evils, it also has its shares of great deeds. It is not (or shouldn't be) about accepting responsibility of the past, but understanding it. As individuals, we are only responsible for the actions of ourselves, and on occasion, of our charges (be they children, or another for whom we are responsible). It is also not 'right' to treat all white males the same, as it is not right to treat any member of a group one way based on their membership in said group, be it genetic or chosen.

I think in the midst of these conversations, it's important to keep in mind that there are many men who aren't sexist, and many whites who aren't racist, and many white males who are neither racist nor sexist. I do not pretend to know what it is to be a victim of racism or sexism, but I also think that it's important to keep in mind that given the opportunity, there would be plenty of racist non-whites out there and plenty of sexist women. As long as there is such a thing as power, abuse of power will exist right alongside it, no matter what sex or ethnicity holds it, so I think it's more important to attack the structure than anything else.

Right on! Whereas I can't speak for your experiences, consider the definitions I have given for racism and sexism. Have you not been a victim? You may not have. However, have you ever experienced prejudice or bigotry based on your sex or pigmentation? These things can help understand, even empathize, with victims of "-isms."

Human beings exist as a continuum. Some of us are extraordinarily good. Some of us are extraordinarily bad. Most of us fall somewhere in between. That applies to everyone. EVERYONE.

As a fellow middle traveler in this life, I agree, it should not be about the color of the skin, the sex, sexual orientation, age, religion, et al, but about the person's heart and actions.

[readmoreoften]

12. Thanks BA! Always the voice of reason!

I ask white males who complain that they are not sexist because they treat people with dignity to realize that maybe the problem is not how they treat others, but how others treat them. As a white person, I do not suffer the same discrimination as people of color do. And I don't just mean random taunts or being overlooked for jobs on occasion. I mean, in many cases, daily discrimination and dehumanization. Is racism my personal fault? No. Of course not. Do I benefit from racism-- whether I like it or not? You better believe it.

I'm a white, half-jewish femme lesbian. I'm pretty invisible. But I'm much less invisible than an African-American femme lesbian.

And I don't even want to get into the gender prejudice experienced by effeminate gay men and butch lesbians.

So you're not evil because you're a straight white male. Of course not! But you're privileged. You may not treat other people badly, but the world treats you better than most. It's important to acknowledge that privilege if you want to start a dialogue with people who aren't straight or male or white.

And if you think that the world treats you badly, imagine how badly it treats the rest of us!

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Ahhh..."privileged"

That is really what it all boils down too! My mother, I said this in another thread*, says: "Black or White, gay or straight, Jew or Christian, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is male and female!" She asserts that once men and women are treated as true equals, then everything else will start to fall into place.

Privilege is a big issue! My being white and male can sometimes be trumped by my being gay, EXCEPT when it comes to Blacks (sometimes other ethnic groups) and women. I know that when I go into a store, when a clerk approaches me, it is because s/he thinks I will spend money, not steal (I have proved that wrong...I'll share that story if you wish). I know in departmental meetings, usually, I will have a louder voice than my female counterparts (and sometimes, my female superiors), except when the leader of the group's homophobia kicks in, then I am treated like "one of the girls," which is fine because my female role models are my mother and Amazons!

Privilege plays a big part in people's not understanding the point of the oppressed. It is when we ALL realize that we are oppressed, either by others or by our own attitudes, that true equality will be achieved, and with it, G-d willing, peace!

*I quote my mom's thoughts about this topic often, and sometimes I use different words depending on the direction of the post, much like my mom would.

[Peter Frank]

11. One Thing is For Sure, "ists" can be killed off - isms cannot...

A war waged on an "ism" is doomed to fail (I know I'm taking this into a related argument; but it ties directly into your OP).

Nazi's were defeated -- Nazism was not.

Communists have been defeated -- Communism has not.

Fascists -- Fascism?

Socialists -- Socialism?

Bolsheviks -- Bolshevism?

Terrorists -- Terrorism?

...and countless more devotees & ideologies.

Ask yourself one question -- If not for persecution, how would the major religions have spread across the globe?

No death for "isms" -- only for "ists".

[Peter Frank]

13. I forgot to mention...

...totaliniarianism.