What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you?

[mdmc]

I heard veep Cheney on npr a couple days ago

Veep: "Iraqi's are trying to keep a unified country together without a dictator like Saddam Hussein to keep it all together. This is not civil war."

My question is, "When can we leave?" If we are waiting for a coalition that can stabilize and unify Iraq, we sure got a long wait.

What will the country of Iraq look like when it is stable enough for us to leave? Has the DLC or the GOP offered any sort of guideline as to when USA troop withdrawal will not be "cowardly" but rather "honorably"?

I suggest a stable Iraq would include womens right to vote, beer and wine to be served at dinner, and an operating Hooters bar and grill in Baghdad.

What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you?

[amber dog democrat]

1. Iraq never was a valid nation.

An Iraq divided into 3 countries - following the wishes of their constituents might make more sense.
Iraq is no more a nation than the USSR or Yugoslavia were. Without a strong police to keep divisions in check it will be impossible to keep any kind of social order in place.

I think an Iraq worthy of US with drawl will look like this: hundreds of thousands of furious, armed Iraqis being held off by nervous security all around the green zone as the copters are lifting people off the roofs and getting them the hell out of dodge.

It may come down to that.

[mdmc]

2. Is that what it looked like when the Europeans left?

Somehow, the Europeans got out of Babylon. I agree that your scenario demands withdrawal. Can you spin a rosy scenario where we could leave Iraq?

[BuyingThyme]

3. The question is bogus and racist.

The Iraqis are not morons. They know how to run their own fucking country. They don't need to be trained how to be human beings. They don't need our money and false morality. There's nothing difficult about training a police/military force. There's nothing to be learned from Donald Rumsfeld. They are not fucking morons.

[The2ndWheel]

6. See, that's where you're wrong

"They don't need to be trained how to be human beings."

But that's what civilization does. Yeah, yeah, Iraq was the craddle of civilization. America is now the gold standard. You will be like us, living with our socio-economic system, and you will like it. If not, we will kill you. We've done it before. It's what civilization does.

[mdmc]

25. kick

[mdmc]

8. What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you?

I never said that Iraqi people were morons. What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you? When does withdrawl go from cowardly to honorable?

What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you? (you can answer , right now! if you want).

[BuyingThyme]

9. My comment certainly wasn't directed at you.

It's directed at this false standard we want others to live up to. We have no business being/staying in Iraq. We have nothing to offer.

[mdmc]

10. thank you for your post

I am torn. I opposed the war, and the occupation. I feel your "we should be out, now" position. But I feel that we cannot leave Iraq, ever. We need to stay until our side wins the civil war and a unity government can stand on its own. I fear that an unity government will never be able to stand on its own.

[BuyingThyme]

12. Which/what is our side?

I think we're the bad guys, and the only way the good guys win is if we leave.

[mdmc]

14. We should have never gone in, and now we can't leave

I feel that we can only leave when an unified Iraqi people request for us to do so. I have not entirely fleshed out a reasonable position on this issue. I say, "we can leave Iraq when a Hooters is opened in Baghdad." as long as there is oil in Iraq, the USA will be there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. It looks just like it looks now.

All the American occupation is doing now, is throwing kerosene on the fire they started.

[mdmc]

17. anyone else?

[The2ndWheel]

5. Well we're never leaving

first of all.

However...

If Iraqi's learn to cram themselves into cubicles, and learn that a good Iraqi is a fat consuming Iraqi, then maybe we won't need the US military on the streets. We'll just put up some camera's, and watch them from an office building in Washington. A few GPS laser guided beams to keep the rabble in check, and there you go. Alright, the last one might be a bit much. But you never know.

[mdmc]

11. that is my fear as well

:kick:

[Just Me]

23. wow,...hit a reality button with that one,....

:-( kinda' goes to show what we have become,...a full-strength corporatocracy, a bit "prettier" than fascism yet still the same x(

[mdmc]

26. just a little prettier

at least Bush has twins...

[Jose Diablo]

7. In Cheney's view, an Iraq worthy of self-governance would be an Iraq

without any oil. We will be withdrawing from Iraq when the oil fields are dry.

[mdmc]

15. oil-less

yeah... I guess a hooters wouldn't be needed in Baghdad if there was no more oil.

[ThomWV]

13. Any Day The Sun Rises Would Be Good Enough For Me nt

[mdmc]

16. kick

[Sir Jeffrey]

18. "What does an Iraq worthy of US withdrawal look like to you?"

An Iraq worthy of withdrawal looks like present-day Iraq. The elections proved that they want us out ASAP.

We should leave now.

Remember, at least part of the "insurgency" is operated by MI6.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1573933,00.html

"In a day of dramatic incidents in the heart of the British-controlled area of Iraq, the two undercover soldiers - almost certainly special forces - were held by Iraqi security forces after clashes that reportedly left two people dead and threatened to escalate into a diplomatic incident between London and Baghdad.

The soldiers, who were said to have been wearing Arab headdress, were accused of firing at Iraqi police when stopped at a road block."

So, if MI6 was caught, you can bet that the CIA is involved too.

And, of course, the "security forces" are a sham. They'll never be trained.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4266304.stm

"Insurgents have infiltrated Iraq's security services, National Security Adviser Muwafaq al-Rubaie has admitted.

Speaking on the BBC's Newsnight programme, he said he had no idea how far the services had been undermined, with problems "in many parts of Iraq". "

And we're doing it in Iran too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4765962.stm

"One of those now executed, Ali Afravi, said he had contacted Arab separatist groups based in Canada and Britain after reading their websites.

He said these groups asked him to create insecurity inside Iran.

In total, nine men were shown on TV making confessions that were heavily edited. It is not clear what will happen to the rest who were tried and convicted behind closed doors.

The attacks were part of a series of bombings in the city of Ahwaz, in Khuzestan province, following unrest a year ago in which ethnic Arabs protested against alleged discrimination by the Persian majority."

To those who opposed the invasion but want to stay to create stability, they are inadvertantly arguing the same end as those who supported the war and want to stay. But enough evidence exists to show that the US and UK understand this and are actively playing on the opposition's guilty conscience (we invaded their country illegally, wrecked their infrastructure, and now we can't leave until it is rebuilt).

The infrastructure will never be rebuilt with US dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/24/international/middleeast/24reconstruct.html?ex=1295758800&en=a75e40af61a6a236&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

"The first official history of the $25 billion American reconstruction effort in Iraq depicts a program hobbled from the outset by gross understaffing, a lack of technical expertise, bureaucratic infighting, secrecy and constantly increasing security costs, according to a preliminary draft."

And do I really need to post a source for the rampant war profiteering going on? The longer we stay, the more money Halliburton, Bechtel, etc. gets to make pretending to build stuff.

See? There is no way out honorably. Our government and the British govt. are inciting violence and trying to bring about chaos to keep people with a guilty conscience from advocating immediate withdrawal.

[mdmc]

19. thanks for your posts and links, sir

[Sir Jeffrey]

20. No problem...

This is all stuff I learned on DU anyway.

[mdmc]

24. this is a great place

:kick:

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

21. how do we win in Iraq at this point?

Step forth and state, "We have Fucked Up". Ask for all to come to our assistance for the good of this ancient Nation. Include Turkey esp. The slaps we got from them were well deserved in re: to this War. We need every Nation to help our military at this point. And do not snub the French ever again. All in Iraq need representation, a Sadr theology will not work. Frankly, a Dictatorship is the only thing that would work, hard as that seems to most. Without a Dictatorship, Theology would dominate, and God help the women, Sunnies, and Christians of Iraq then.

[mdmc]

22. Viva la France!

:kick:

[ThomWV]

27. It Looks Like Sunrise Tomorrow Morning

That would be good enough for me, rain or shine.

[mdmc]

28. rain or shine!

:kick: