Whats driving anti-abortion rhetoric ?

[Krist]

An interesting argument presented by a mexican friend of mine, while discussing the Dakota debacle. I dont get easily excited by extreme views, but this one got me a bit startled since I never thought about it from this angle.

Is anti-abortionism based on racial insecurity of white people ?

Whites are becoming a minority in many parts of US. California and Texas are already non-white majority states. Hispanics are gaining in numbers, already displaced blacks as the dominant minority group. And many are inter-marrying with whites, or "miscegenating".

Bill Bennett recently said crime would be down if all black babies are aborted. Am sure many conservatives tacitly agree with him, even while condemning him in public. Many supremacist groups also preach that abortion should be legalized for non-white communities and mixed-race babies, in order to prevent
"miscegenation".

Its not politically correct for "pro-lifers" to say out those things in the open afterall, thats why they paint it with a "morality" argument. They dont say "no abortion for whites", and instead contend with "no abortion for all".

What do you guys think.

[BootinUp]

1. nope

Its religion, plain and simple.

[laheina]

7. Well, I would say religion and

patriarchy, and a fear of change.

But I think that the racial angle doesn't fit very well.

[SeaBob]

9. abortion

It's the POWER of religion. Marx was right. it's the opiate of the masses... its also a damn good business

[monktonman]

2. huh????

[Kerrytravelers]

3. For some of them, I sure this is a strong reason.

I wouldn't say for all of them. But for ones who overtly racist, I'm sure it makes one of their top ten reasons.

Then there are the ones who have racist thoughts, but are in complete denial about their feelings.

This is certainly one angle I would give more thought to.

[Karenina]

17. Overheard: Most of those "babies" are WHITE!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Perfect solution... prevent WHITE women whose sperm donors are WHITE males from refusing to be incubators. DHS can take charge of the "W" homes. :sarcasm:

[leftofthedial]

4. religiously insane zealotry

and mass hysteria

[bunkerbuster1]

14. ...with a dash of racial insecurity thrown in.

I do believe most "pro-lifers" are a good deal more worried about the "racial suicide" that Pat Robertson spoke of recently.

Having said that, I don't think it's especially smart of us to frame this as a predominantly racial issue. Mostly I think it's a problem of respecting different religious and ethical beliefs.

I'll say it again--most "pro-lifers", I don't think, are hardline pro-criminalization. I think they're just seriously misguided, and think that passing draconian anti-abortion laws will "end abortion."

As if you could ever end abortion. It's nutty. But I digress.

[napi21]

5. I don't think so. I think most people agree that if abortion is left up

the States, there will be only a few that permit them. Probably NY & Calif. Not to say there aren't any wealthy minorities, but most fairly wealthy people are white, and could easily afford to travel to either of those states to get their abortion, while poor people would not.

Naw, I think your friend is wrong on this one.

[Krist]

15. race & religion..

Cummon, we all know they've been always used to meet some political agenda.. derive some fringe benefits for some group.

Morality is just meant to make it look good, but they actually must've some agenda, some insecurity thats driving them.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. I'm afraid that I have to agree with your friend. I do believe that

there is some racism involved. I haven't seen a whole lot of ethnic groups represented in the major 'pro-life' groups or marches. I think there is a sub-conscious fear of becoming a minority present in most fundies.

[Krist]

11. Yes, probably true..

Minorities look at things differently than we do. His argument explains their lack of participation in pro-life rallies.

[havocmom]

22. Count me in that corner too

On all the many days I helped stand at the boundaries of Planned Parenthood Clinics when they were being hit with fanatic protesters, the faces sneering at us were ALL white and mostly male. And those people had more fear than hate in their eyes.

There is a chunk of the population that liked the bad ol days when it was a white man's world where women and people of color kept their place. There is a chunk of the population that think somehow that equality for all lessened them particularly.

There is an element of racism to the whole thing. Same as in Hitler's day.

[loyalsister]

36. It goes back to eugenics

Positive eugenics refers to the obligation of the "proper pedigree" to reproduce. Positive Eugenics was where Margaret Sanger parted ways with the other supporters of eugenics.

[DinahMoeHum]

8. Here's a clue, from Doris "Granny D" Haddock. . .

http://www.grannyd.com/speeches/orchardhouse.htm

(snip)
Where authority and power flow down from above, from heaven to the White House to husbands and ayatollahs, the free and joyful living of people can be quite the enemy. If you will remember the free spirit of those flower children who grew up in the 1960s, for example, you will also remember the harsh attitude that attended to their joys from the more traditional, often more rural, elements of our society. Those political leaders who rose from this time, who lived in this more open and free way--less constrained by the rules of authority--were especially vilified by the authority clan. You need only to think of the special treatment given to the Clintons, who were of this generation and climate, to know the truth of this. And it fits the international pattern, of course, that the woman, Mrs. Clinton, would be singled out for the cruelest stones.

What attracted such hatred? It was their freedom, their sense of equality, and their joys.

Here it is: those in the clan of authority are not given the privilege--the natural right--of living their own lives. They do as they are told, say and think what they are told. Smothered is their curiosity and their healthy skepticism, and also their imagination, joy, freedom, and lust for life itself. When they see others actually living lives, they react with anger, as if someone had cut to the front of a line that, for them, never moves.

What is the proof of this theory? Those enthrall to authority, cowering under it, lose sight of their own lives. They will venerate above all else the symbol of the yet unruined potential of life: the curled-up unborn. The authority clan will have the image of an unborn baby as its flag, and they will claim to honor and defend innocent life, but that will be a great lie to themselves. For they will not be the ones to demand DNA testing of all prisoners on death row; they will not be the ones to demand health insurance for all children, or better nutrition in all schools, or peaceful alternatives to international conflicts. They will be the ones to rail against these things, for the authority clan parades itself as pro-life while it is truly more like a cult of death. Having died themselves, strangled by authority and fear, they cannot wish happy lives for others--they cling only to that magic symbol of what might have been. They relate to the unborn baby selfishly; it is themselves: unborn, unlived, still hoping for a life.
(snip)

(There's much more at the link...)


:smoke:

[FreedomAngel82]

10. I think it's more so because

the fundies believe they have power now because they believe "moral values" won the 2004 election. :eyes: And than Bush with the Miers deal and they believe they got Alito for this so they're using this time now while they still have the power.

[warrens]

12. It's an easy faux-moral thing to stand for

Nobody really LIKES abortion. The majority of people simply believe the choice has to be there. For those with an absolutist frame of mind, having such easy issues is very comforting. Like flag-burning and supportin' our boys in time of war. Nobody's really saying we should burn every flag or spit on our troops.

[Mz Pip]

13. Irrational religious intolerance

I doubt those who oppose abortion really care the race of those who want abortions. They really believe this is about life beginning at conception (or before conception if they are also anti contraception)

Most of them aren't smart enough to even spell "racial insecurity."

Mz Pip
:dem:

[SmokingJacket]

16. Fear of sex.

They hate the idea of people out there enjoying sex with no penalty -- probably because they can't. They want people who get lots of sex to be PUNISHED. It's why some of the same people want to outlaw sex toys -- it has nothing to do with saving babies. If it did, those people would be advocating better health care for poor women and funding of head start and food programs.

It's also why so many homophobes are actually secretly gay themselves: they hate the gays who accept themselves and ENJOY having sex, because they can't.

Okay, so it's a sweeping theory, but I believe it!

[newswolf56]

18. Anti-abortionism is driven by a truly bottomless hatred of sensuality...

and sexual pleasure -- ultimately suicidal self-hatred on the part of Fundamentalist women, murderous misogynism on the part of Fundamentalist men, the latter combined with a huge measure of clitoris envy: rage and fear over the fact women are multi-orgasmic and men are not.

Thus the core-values of Abrahamic doctrine (and of patriarchal religion in general): envious hatred of woman for her embodiment of the infinite potential of the universe; hatred and contempt of nature for its irrepressible "heresies"; endless war on the microcosm of womankind and the macrocosm of nature -- all this to elevate the remote, abstract and therefore utterly contra-intuitive male god while suppressing the far more ancient, concrete and utterly intuitive goddess (whether symbol or reality it matters not). Thus too the Fundamentalist hatred of science, which gives us evolution, the Gaia Hypothesis, the genetic fact all life is female at origin, and therefore asserts the very "heresies" the Abrahamic god demands be suppressed.

Think not of abortion in a merely political context; think instead of abortion as a microcosm of the right of Nature (or of Gaea if you will) to be conscious, self-governing -- therefore implicitly defiant of Yehveh/Jesu/Allah, whether his mandates are expressed by rabbinical decree, papal bull or ayatollic fatwa.

It is an old old war. As the ancient Celtic poet Taliesin said in a prophetic poem some believe is at least 2600 years old:

Renewal of the conflicts
Such as Gwydion made

when, as the champion of the Tuatha de Danaan -- "Children of the Goddess Danu" -- Gwydion is said to have raised not only the people but the very land itself against patriarchal invaders.

[Krist]

24. interesting ideas..

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

20. The fudies really do think they are"saving innocent babies"

I don't think racism has anything to do with it, I know African-Americans who think abortion is wrong, too. I think it is ultimately a clash between moral philosophies. Secular people tend toward Utillitarianism (maximize happiness, minimize suffering) while religious people stick with the religious ethics laid out by Thomas Aquinas (you're actions must conform to "natural ends" since that is fulfilling God's Plan).

[Krist]

21. Same with Homosexuality, isnt it ?

Come to think of it, opposition to gay marriages also has a racial insecurity angle. Would lead to drop in birth rates of the white population, also opposition to gay-adoptions as it will lead to increase in homosexual behavior.
Europe is facing with declining birth-rates, and a major issue is their fertility problem as well.

One conservative I met recently said - "The Western civilization is hell bent on aborting and buggering itself out of existence, its only a matter of time before we are invaded and wiped out by the towelheads." (no offense intended, just quoting him here). Though he probably might not represent the average conservative.

[Felix Mala]

23. Men who subconsciously envy and hate women, starting with moms, wives.

[gollygee]

25. The "those babies could be placed for adoption" makes me think

that could be the case.

*White* babies have an easy time finding adoptive homes.

[Krist]

26. did you know...

That Germany adopts more black American babies than Americans themselves ?

[stepnw1f]

27. What's Driving It: Mental Illness and Hatred of Women's Rights

throw in ignorance for good measure.

[Ilsa]

28. I have seen the economics of helping the poor

via govt support change people's minds about abortion. One of my best friends was anti-choice up until recently. Now she's pro-choice, followed by sterilization if wanted. And I don't think she would limit it just to the poor as she originally did. She's just sick of the overpopulation.

[windy252]

29. I think it is certainly a strong reason for some of them.

Though, I see the minority increase as a good thing. I'm hoping, possibly in vain, that they'll help us edge closer to sanity.

[abluelady]

30. It very well could be

I was reading the "history" of abortion. Early on in America abortion was not an "issue." It was regularly done. Then when immigration got big in the US, there was a crackdown for the very reason you discussed. It may not be the reason put out there, but I wonder if there is some truth in that again.

[geniph]

31. Ever hear the story of "Rubbers" Bush?

Bush senior was a huge proponent of third-world birth control, so much that he got the nickname of "Rubbers" Bush. But once he, and those like him, realized that birth control was being used by upper-class and middle-class white people in developed countries, their support for family planning programs suddenly disappeared.

http://www.kmf.org/williams/bushbook/bush10.html

Yes, there is definitely an element of racism.

[Krist]

32. Great link..

[Lexingtonian]

33. not racism per se, for most, imho

Though you can't get them away from thinking racist stuff, either.

Thing is, the proportion of abortions performed on black women nationally is larger than the proportion of black people in the population. Something like over 20% vs 14%, iirc. So if no abortions took place and nothing else changed, there would be a net increase in black people relative to white. Abortion is in fact keeping black American numbers constant as a proportion of the national population. (The proportion of the American population that is identified as black has remained remarkably constant, at 14%, since the Civil War.)

Then there are Latino people, whose high birth rate is not going to be matched by white Americans whatever the rules about abortion. The Latino proportion of the population is increasing, period. I'm not entirely sure about Native Americans, but anecdotally I hear birth rates are heading upwards at the moment.

I think anti-abortion is far more psychological/cultural and 'religious' in its roots, just as the people claim.

There are people who come to abhor abortion all on their own, from experience of some variety, but I don't believe that's the root for most. Even though they might say and personally believe so. There's some reason they're less aware of for why they find it a horror unlike all the other ones of life, like gruesome car accidents or whatnot.

I'm more struck that traditionalist farming people or their city-living children are and become quite uniformly anti-abortion. The more I look at it, the more the norms and beliefs and emphases of the agrarian way of life persuades me as the root of it. Traditional people who come to the U.S. from non-Christian agrarian countries, like China, are anti-abortion. Metropolitan Europeans, nominal Christians, are pro-choice. When you look at all of the Third World and e.g. Russia, look globally, the correlate with "moral" opposition to abortion is not Christianity, it's everywhere the traditionalist farming way of life. Hunters and gatherers, desert peoples, herders, fishing peoples, and city people all permit some amount of abortion or infant death by exposure/starvation and see it as a price of life. But farming peoples, who (of course) do some amount of it, abhor it and deny it sanction.

The best explanation I've found for this phenomenon is that farming people are completely dependent on plant and animal fertility, and they've had to come up with religious explanations and efforts to guarantee its continuation. That creates a set of religious beliefs that cultural anthropologists term "fertility cultism" which permeates all of life. But unlike hunters or herders, farmers' fertility cultisms blend animal and plant fertility concepts and models into a supposed universal concept of the fertility cycle. The problem is, it doesn't properly work outside that very narrow cultural context.

But if you operate by such a belief system, you misconceptualize and fetishize the human/animal zygote as a kind of fertilized plant seed. A plant seed is essentially a primitive miniature of the full-grown plant organism. An animal zygote is, as we now know, without meaningful form and transforms itself to complexity and distinct identity from its invisible DNA components entirely. But in medieval times there was a prevalent idea that human gametes too consisted of pre-formed miniature human forms, a guess from plant seeds. To tell you how ignorant and plant-analogizing people were then, sperm(!) were imagined to be these pre-formed humans and the female uterus imagined to be a kind of field in which they were planted. (How they explained chicken eggs then I really couldn't tell you.) That's the "homonunculus" theory. There are wacky amusing pictures out there portraying it.

I believe denial of this plant/animal distinction is the basic intellectual fallacy you can find everywhere in the theory underpinning all the anti-abortion rhetoric and arguments. It's in their fetal pictures and ultrasound stuff, and the new "feels pain" claim, this idea that society is dealing with a preexisting form with consciousness. It's in their bizarre rationalization of the status of fertilized eggs and stem cells as human individuals. They're all seeds that just need planting or are planted, and it offends The God Of Plants when seeds are not permitted to grow.

[Krist]

34. how do we explain..

But how do we explain why the majority of pro-lifers, at least the prominent ones, are all white ?

Except for fringe psychos like Alan Keyes, black community isnt involved in an orchestrated campaign at the grassroot level to mobilize community support for this issue.

[Lexingtonian]

39. That's for the same reason

white people- white men- are the leaders in everything else that is 'conservative'. Where there's power and prestige, how ever stupid or ugly, the manipulative and powerhungry sorts show up. They probably don't start off very deep believers in The Cause, but there's nothing like success to engrain it as the foundation of their ego and career.

[Yavin4]

35. It's More About Subjugating Women

That's the main reason for no exception in the case of rape and incest. IOW, men have the right to force their seed on any woman they choose, and that woman has to carry his baby to term.

[Krist]

37. Forcing rape victims to carry unwanted children is just sick.

Its somethin like legalizing rape and incest !

[Yavin4]

40. Something Like? Try Exactly Like

No matter how much a woman advances through her life. At any time, any man can impregnant her at any time, and she will have to bear his child. Thus, the only protection a woman would have is to be married (read: become the property of a man that will defend her from other men).

[Krist]

43. well...

atleast they didnt ban female contraceptives over there..... YET.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. There's Nothing Wrong With Being Anti-Abortion.

No shame in that whatsoever, and most I know are anti-abortion in one way or another. It is being anti-choice that's the real problem, since that is where someone's need to inflict control over another's independent and private rights comes into play.

As far as the reasoning in the OP, I disagree with it completely.

[Odin2005]

42. The problem with arguing with the anti-choice people.

Is that because they consider abortion murder, that allowing a person to chose would be allowing murder, which is why they that argument won't work on them. As long as they consider "pro-choice" to mean "supports legalized murder" nothing can convince them otherwise.

[DanCa]

41. Bush's poll numbers plus the mid term.

Seriously this is the anti choices momement to strike, plus there spurred on by conservatives getting placed on the supreme court. However there also afraid that Bush's poll numbers are at an all time low and it may hurt the anti choice republican base. Good question Krist welcome to DU.