My abortion story - no pregnancy, no loss of life. Just understanding.

[mdmc]

While I was having a political discussion with my girlfriend, I casually mentioned to her that as I got older, my view of abortion had changed. I informed my girlfriend that I was pro-choice, but that I did not think that I would be able to make the decision to end the life of my own potential child.

My girlfriend responded that I had an interesting position on this issue. My girlfriend informed me that she never wanted to have children, and that she would have an abortion if she got pregnant.

I felt nauseous. I didn't know what to say.

My girlfriend could tell that I was hurt. She apologized (?) to me, and stated that she had always felt this way. She informed me that we could engage in safer sex, or that we could have a celibate relationship, but that she would not allow herself to become a mom. She would never allow herself to be pregnant.

I was forced to accept her determination regarding pregnancy. I could accept it, or stop having sex. I accepted it.

It was then that I learned what love is. Love is when you fully bond with another, and care as much about the other as you do for your self. I knew that my future wife, my lover, my love of my life, would want to bear my child. I knew that the love of my life would want to bear my child, and would never abort my child. I knew that my girlfriend was not the love of my life.

When you have sex for pleasure instead of reproduction, you run the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Being open and honest about this situation is very important. Take responsibility for your actions. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Raising a child is the biggest thing that you will ever do. When you have sex, you may be making a lifetime commitment.

I have been in other relationships, where the girl wanted to get pregnant, and I did not want to have kids. I knew the risk, and would have had to pay 17.5% of my salary if I ended up being a dad. My choice to have sex requires that I take responsibility for my actions.

I would love your thoughts on this DU. Peace and low stress.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. She is very lucky. (nt)

[mdmc]

2. that is very kind to say

:kick:

[shanti]

21. you are BOTH very lucky

that you are so clear about what you want and don't want, and are secure enough to express it. you both took a big chance of ending the relationship by doing so, but both your lives will be better for it.

congratulations! :thumbsup:

[mdmc]

25. well, to be honest, I clung to her for some time

she was smart, hot, and a liberal republican police officer. She was everything this pot smoking hippy progressive Dem could want in a partner. She had good political ties, too.:)

Eventually, we realized that there must be someone out there more suitable for the both of us. Neither of us have found "them" yet.

[shanti]

27. liberal republican??

i've never heard of that :wow:

[mdmc]

29. well, she supported choice

Lots of people choose a political party based on their parents. Her dad was a GOP committee member. All of her siblings, even her super green brother, are enrolled in the GOP. It makes her dad's job of securing nominating petition signatures easier.
She also opposed the death penalty and the drug war (and was a firm supporter of labor unions). And she was a cop! God, I miss her!

Now I am feeling a bit blue...

[cookiebird]

3. Clear Thinking

This is a profound experience. Thank you for the sharing.

[mdmc]

6. thanks cookie... I appreciate your post.

:kick:

[Ninga]

4. Dear mdmc.....I am moved by your thoughtful approach. I wish that

it were as easy as you make it seem.

The very people who need to be exposed to your philosophy, never take the time.

Having said that, I do not quite believe in my heart that unintended pregnancy's are always avoided by thoughtful and careful people.

[mdmc]

8. I agree. Celebicy is the only way to avoid unintended pregnancy

and this is true only for men. Women always will bear the risk of inintended pregnancy through force (rape).

Eventually, I suspect that humanity will evolve to a point where reproduction will only result from two people that are committed to raising a child have sex. I think that evolution will eventually require humans to not only have sex, but also be determined to raise the child. I truely believe this.

[Saphire]

18. When I had my last child, I opted for tubal ligation. I knew that I didn'

want anymore children, and that this was the only way I could be 100% positive that I wouldnt get pregnant again, even if I were raped. It has worked for the last 17 years.

[mdmc]

28. I didn't even consider ligation in the OP.

Thanks for the post. :kick: The OP was really an effort to help men understand their role, and choices, revolving around child support and abortion. The OP was intended to show why men must pay child support, and that they do have a choice, however it is too late to make the choice when your child support payment is due.

[lukasahero]

5. "When you have sex..."

"When you have sex, you may be making a lifetime commitment." When I have sex with my husband, I AM both making and re-affirming my lifetime committment - to him.

Neither my husband nor I have ever wanted children. I have always wondered whether or not I would be able to abort were I to get pregnant. As a result, I have lived my life in such a way as to minimize that possibility. And so has my husband. Until he had a vasectomy, we used multiple means of birth control.

I don't consider our love life "sex for pleasure" vs. "sex for reproduction". I consider it a vital part of our love and committment to each other.

[mdmc]

9. Your mutual love and commitment is a pleasure far greater

then busting a nut (I think that is the scientific term describing 'sex for pleasure' lol). In the situation that you describe, sex is part of an entire paradigm in which you and your hubby relate to each other. Your sexual relationship is deeply rooted in pleasure, and it is also part of a bigger picture, a vital part of your love and commitment to each other.

I apologize for OP definition of "sex for pleasure". Pleasure is very important and I thank you for pointing this out.

You and your hubby are very lucky people.

[lukasahero]

17. I appreciate your sensitive response

I guess the point in your OP that struck a nerve (therefore feeling the need to explain our situation) is that of being prepared to take on the consequences of one's actions. Our actions have been thoughtful and careful but, let's be honest, accidents do happen. What then?

I worry about the implication that if one has sex, they have to be prepared to raise a child even when they have taken all the necessary precautions to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. The suggestion seems to be that my husband and I shouldn't have sex if we don't want children.

(Getting ready to be called a prude here but...) I do believe that folks should stop having sex with people they don't even know well enough to ask the question "what happens if..." But I also know that there are a lot of situations in life that don't fit as neatly into these categories. Not everyone has the same access to information and protection we did. Not everyone has control over their situation to the degree that we did.

I don't believe anyone likes to be put in a decision of having to choose an abortion but I do think that we have to understand that the right exists to protect both the people who find themselves in that situation and the potential child that may come of it. "Every child a wanted child" is a good maxim.

[mdmc]

30. well, no one likes to make that choice

but it is a whole lot better then not having a choice in the first place. My intention in the OP was to help men understand that they have a choice when it comes to paying child support (it wasn't really an abortion OP). My OP was intended to educate men in regards to their choices.

Men can have sex with who they want.
Men can use birth control.
Men can request their partner terminate a pregnancy.

this is where a man's choice ends.

Once a women decides to carry a pregnancy to term, the father is responsible to pay child support. The father has no choice in the matter at this point. However, prior to this point, the father had many choices available. Once you become a dad, you give up your right not to pay child support.

While the OP does not convey this message, I think that I will be able to get the point across through posts and discussion.

[lukasahero]

36. Gotcha

And, as a woman, I am not going near that one with a ten foot pole. ;)

(Actually, I tend to be on the side of coming up with a way for a man to voice his opinion and "opt out" of support if he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses. But it's comlicated and, like I said, I'm really not looking to go there. :) )

[mdmc]

38. I am very interested in, and in direct opposition to an "opt out" option

I would love to "go there" with someone who would be willing to debate it. I wonder what supporters of an "opt out" option are trying to accomplish, public policy wise. How would an "opt out" option effect public policy?

Is the goal to punish women for getting pregnant by a man that did not desire this outcome?
Is the goal to terminate pregnancies where both parties are not committed to the child?
Is the goal to give more rights regarding reproduction to the sexually active man?

Please do not feel obliged to reply, as you have stated that you are not looking to go there. I am sure that this thread will eventually broach the subject.

Life is very complicated.

Thank you for your posts and for your civic participation in the debate. :kick::)

[lukasahero]

45. You ask good questions

Since so far you've been so civil and reasonable, I'll give it a try. Don't be surprised if I bail on it in the event others come in and start slamming me over it. I'm kind of tired of the gender wars...

I don't have all the answers but for the ones I feel I have reasoned out, I will do my best. (Bear in mind that I'm one of "those" radical man-hating feminists lots of people talk about here so I hope no one will accuse me of having that "wanting to impress the men" mentality.)

For the record: Situations of force, incest, rape and if/when abortion is not a legal or viable (read: no clinics available) option are off the table. In those cases, he pays - either in jail time and/or money. Period. End of sentence.

"Is the goal to punish women for getting pregnant by a man that did not desire this outcome?" Absolutely not. I am absolutely positively 100% pro-choice and as long as she has the legal choice to have an abortion, I don't know where the idea that she is being "punished" comes from if she chooses to carry the baby to term. That's the joy of "choice".

"Is the goal to give more rights regarding reproduction to the sexually active man?" Again, if you don't know my name, I can refer you to some folks who will verify my status as "man-hating feminist" ;) (that's not true by the way but neither am I a male-privelege apologist) so no, this is hardly going to be my point.

The goal perhaps would be to get passed the idea that men have a say in our bodies and offer some kind of solution to the "she tricked/trapped me" meme. If we don't want men to be able to force us to live by their decisions then we have to offer some kind of alternative other than forcing them to live with ours.

"Is the goal to terminate pregnancies where both parties are not committed to the child?" Ultimately the goal is to raise children who are wanted in mature, loving families. That situation is not always available. So, the next goal is to raise children who are wanted and loved by the parent who wants and loves them. The goal is to NOT raise children in an atmosphere of anger and resentment which is sure to happen if a man (or woman) is forced to have and/or support a child that was unplanned.

I agree with the poster who suggested that once a man has made the decision to "opt out", he forfeits all rights to the child. The woman who then chooses to carry the child to term knows what her situation is, knows what she faces and can make her decision from there. I also suggest severe penalties for men and women who bail on the child once committed to not opting out.

All of this is just fanciful pondering however. Affordable health care and social services would have to be available and, well, we know how likely that is these days. The point is, I can't abide by telling men to "keep it in their pants" unless I want to face the backlash of "women should keep their legs crossed" bs. As described earlier, I think that approach doesn't fit all scenarios. Neither does this "solution". But I do think we have to come up with a way to allow women the ultimate choice of what happens to their bodies without encouraging men to fear what women could do to them with that choice. I hear it all the time. Otherwise warm and wonderful men start thinking "well what if she puts holes in my condom?"

I think we could get attention back to the real issues - the men who do tell women they will be there for them only to leave when the bill comes due, poverty, lack of education and access to birth control and health services - if we could get passed the fear. Like I said, I agree with you that we should all take responsibility for our sexual behavior but the "pay to play" meme does nothing but alienate men, instill fear and distrust among the genders and perpetuate the war on each other rather than doing anything to minimize the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

[mdmc]

49. wow. wow. wow.

I think we are well hidden enough to avoid a flame fest, and I really appreciate your post. Please take a second to kick up my http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2436324 shout out to Wes Clark supporters thread.

I think that we can get somewhere by discussing this opt out issue.

The reason that I asked if a mom would be "punished" by this opt out option is because it would make it harder for a mom to afford to raise a child if she was unable to receive child support.

You suggest that an "opt out of child support option" should be viable in order to undercut a defensive dads statement that "he didn't mean to have a baby, and that the mom effectively tricked him in to having a baby. You suggest that men need "some kind of alternative" to supporting a child that they don't want, but their lover does. You suggest that men deserve to have an alternative, because women have the alternative to terminate a pregnancy. Thus, if a women can decide to abort a baby or not to, men should be allowed to decide whether or not to be economically responsible for bringing a child that they did not want. Men should have this 'right' AS AN ALTERNATIVE to being able to override the womens choice to abortion. Since a man cannot override a womens right to chose, he should be allowed to "opt out" of the life of the child.

This is a very interesting idea. Please correct me if I got the premise wrong.

I suggest that men should be responsible for who they have sex with. A man should not be having sex with a women that they don't trust and respect them (such as a women that would poke a hole in a condom). If a man is unsure what the motives of his lover are, he should avoid having an intimate relationship with that person. Personal responsibility lies within each individual. I think that it is reasonable to require men to accept the responsibilities of their sexual encounters and to refrain from sexual encounters if they are unwilling to accept the ramifications of their actions.

I think the opt out option would:
-place additional financial burdens on the mother, thus limiting a womens right to reproductive choice.
-increase abortion rates.
-increase reproductive freedom for men.

What do you think of this? (I am not very articulate and I don't have excellent reading comprehension, so I apologize if I misunderstood your post or offended you with my response. Please let me know if this is the case).

Peace and low stress!

[lukasahero]

57. I think you have my premise right

(And to be fair, it's not my premise but one I saw kicked around here recently.)

I think there would have to be some institutional changes before something like this could work however. Obviously, there would have to be support structures built to allow single mothers to actually be able to succeed in raising a wanted child "on her own" if she so chooses.

Additionally, I am absolutely 100% behind you in the idea that men should be more responsible about who they sleep with - as should women. I believe we should be teaching sex education and in that class we should be addressing abstinence, self-control and all manner birth control (as well as protection from STDs). But again, I think we have to recognize that no matter how responsible some people are and how responsible we want them to be, both men and women (and young men and young women) make bad decisions - not to mention accidents do happen - and options and support systems have to be available to everyone who finds themself in a situation where a child may have to live with the effects of those decisions.

Re: your points of what an "opt out" option would do, a support structure system would address the financial burdens on the mother (btw - in case you hadn't noticed, I'm no libertarian). Increased reproductive freedom for responsible men is not, in my opinion, a bad thing - just as increased reproductive freedom for women isn't. And as far as increasing the abortion rates, I disagree. I think if we can get past the petty arguments of "she tricked me", "he left me" we can get down to the business of providing education, birth control and support services that reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies not just the number of abortions. That to me is the ultimate goal - reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies by education, access to birth control and health services, financial and social support and expanded employment/financial opportunity.

Again, I realize that not every situation can be addressed by so simple a model but it's something worth thinking/talking about, if only as a fanciful idea that gets some of the guys who think all women want to castrate them off our backs. ;) You guys should definitely be speaking up and encouraging responsibility among your brothers. Just as I will continue to "preach" sexual responsibility to my sisters. But we also have to realize that not everyone will listen and women and children are the primary "victims" in the system currently in place.

[mdmc]

60. she bang, she bang

Not everyone will listen, but we can preach. I'm a pretty wild guy, but I would accept responsibility for my actions.

I have enjoyed discussing this very much with you. Peace!

[lukasahero]

61. Peace back at ya'. Have a good weekend. eom

[bobbieinok]

91. STUNNING you 2 could have a reasoned dialogue without

derailments

I'm not sure I agree with either of you, but your dialogue was interesting......if we can't have reasoned dialogue (instead of just repeating old mantras and bashing each other), NO ONE will ever learn anything

[lukasahero]

94. Thanks.

Actually, I was just ruminating. The idea is intriguing but I'm afraid way too much would have to happen before anything like the proposed "opt out" idea could ever come to fruition.

But I do agree we have to learn to talk about these things without the personal attacks and judgements that are usually attached to these conversations if we are ever going to get anywhere.

Peace.

(And thanks, your post really made me smile.)

[mdmc]

97. me too

:)your post really made me smile

[pitohui]

51. "opt out:" would be a great boon for the lawyers

and lawyers need to eat too

just think, every time a woman gets pregnant, it is no longer a matter between her and her doctor, it is now a matter between her and the man's attorney, any man of means will have attorney and insurers pressuring him to "opt out," any young man will have parents pressuring him to "opt out," and in the case of older men -- well, guess what -- many older men are married and the wife is going to pressure the older man to "opt out" and abandon his child, and why shouldn't she, she sure as hell doesn't want her money to go to supporting another woman's baby

"opt out" will mean that women are forced to have abortions even if they would prefer to carry the baby to term, either that or they could always do what one friend of mine did and sell the baby i suppose

"opt out" creates a second class world of poverty for any woman who actually does have the nerve to bear a child and also for her child, it would be stupid financially for any man ever to marry and take responsibility for his children when he could just "opt out" by signing a piece of paper, no financial advisor could possibly allow it

so a world where mothers and children are permanently second class citizens and men are free to do as they please, as if they aren't free enough already

"opt out" is the brainstorm of bitter men angry that DNA technology makes it possible for them to be identified and forced to pay a fair share of the cost of upbringing their own children

what is it with men? i would say 30 percent -- rough guess -- do not have any feeling whatsoever about their own children and would be delighted to see them starve on the street if it sets them free financially to trade the forty for two twenties

if men could abandon children w.out consequences we would see an epidemic of child abandonment unprecedented without the excuse of at least being away at war or exploring the frontier!

[mdmc]

54. that makes sense.

Gotta run, but will read more tonight. Thanks for your post!

[mdmc]

64. Actually I think that men are very protective of their kids

and that this is more of a control thing. A women might be "good enough" to have sex with, but perhaps not good enough to create a baby with.

I think that most guys would rather abort a kid then pay child support for a "mistake". I don't see it as hating their offspring, I see it as a way to control what they care about.

God, I make very little sense.

[Katherine Brengle]

32. Excellent distinction--I think the term...

"casual recreational sex" is probably more in target with what you meant in the OP.

[mdmc]

34. agreed

:kick:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. thanks for your story

Like your girlfriend, I knew from an early age I did not want to become a mother. I remained celebate until marriage. My husband already had children by a previous marriage, and had no problem with my choice-like you, we understand the responsibility of raising and supporting children.

[mdmc]

10. You got the best of both worlds

you have a family, and didn't get pregnant. It sounds like a very nice situation!

[madokie]

12. My dream was to be a step dad, have been now for about 16 years

When i got out of the navy in '70 i meat my wife and we fell in love, but i knew i wouldn't be able to sustain a meaningful relationship, i was bug nuts haven just come home from 15 months in Viet Nam. We went our seperate ways and she married and had two boys, her husband died in a car accident. We bump into each other in '90 and the rest is history. I love these young men as my own, sometimes i think they love me too.

[mdmc]

14. Thanks for sharing, madokie. I was hopin some dudes would post.

That is a great love story and I hope they love you as much as you love them. Is the Nam thing still hanging around you?

[madokie]

20. Yes, i'm afraid so.

it does seem to lessen as time passes. It is one of the reason i so despise this war and misadministration. They don't have a clue what they are doing to our children, what it will be like for them. Nam was different than ww2 in the fact it was a war of choice like Iraq, while ww2 was for survival. So alot of us old Nam vets still have problems with it. I think the part that bothers me the most is that i volunteered when i was in the clear of having to go. I was young and impressionable and convinced it was the right thing to do. I was lied to then as we all are today.

[mdmc]

24. I hear this all too often

and I don't have much more to offer. I love hearing vets speak about war, as it is often so "real" that all pro-war or anti-war positions melt away, and war is left, alone, to be used for survival, and that all war is crime. The bigger the warrior, the stronger the longing for peace.:kick: and thanks for the reply.

[Jokerman]

11. A slightly different perspective.

Let me first congratulate you and your girlfriend for having this discussion. One of the most devastating things to a relationship is when one person wants children and the other doesn't. Especially if this difference is discovered after a commitment is made or after a pregnancy has begun.

I guess that my experience is just the opposite of yours. I've never had any desire to be a father and this has caused more than one relationship to end. The worst situation was the woman who knew of my desire to stay child-free and outwardly agreed while secretly thinking that I would change my mind. She assumed that I would eventually want the love of my life to bear my children even as I assured her I would not. Fortunately for both of us, our relationship ended without a child being conceived.

She went on to marry a man and raise children. I eventually found a woman who shared my desires and we are very happy without children.

I first talked to a doctor about a vasectomy when I was 20 and again at 30 but both times the doctor refused to even discuss the subject as they were also sure that I would change my mind. After stressing over birth control for years and firing more than one doctor, I finally had a vasectomy. Had a pregnancy occurred before this, we agreed that it would be terminated.

Being pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean you would personally choose to end a pregnancy, just that you support the right for others to make that decision on their own.

[mdmc]

13. Like your handle, jokerman

are you a bob dylan fan at all?

Pro-choice means exactly what you said it means - people have the right to choose.

[Jokerman]

15. Yes and No

I'm a big fan of Bob the song writer and of Bob the poet but I have a fairly low tolerance for Bob as a singer. I did get my handle from his song.

[mdmc]

19. I thought it was awesome that he opened woodstock with that song

he was very late (40 minutes, when no other performer was late AT ALL), then he opened with jokerman, apparently to shut the audience up. It worked.:kick: I like Bob on many levels.

[Peanutcat]

16. Good for you, but

You act like there's something wrong with your friend for not wanting to ever have babies. Myself, I've never had the desire to become pregnant, and have made every effort not to get pregnant.I won't go as far to say I would have an abortion if something went wrong and I did get pregnant, but I'm really getting sick and tired of people say thngs like, "If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex!"

[madokie]

22. self delete: Sorry

[mdmc]

33. this should be fun

let me see if I can present my story better...

[mdmc]

23. Actually, neither of us wanted to have kids

I was in love with her, and couldn't imagine destroying something that was a result of our love.

This OP was really intended for the male "anti-child support" crowd. What I was really trying to get across was "If you don't want to pay child support, don't have sex." The only way you are "forced" to pay child support is if you put something somewhere that it did not belong.

Pregnancy can happen without the consent of a women (rape). Sorry I didn't clarify that it the post. My intention was that men do have a CHOICE when it comes to abortion and paying child support. If you can't stand the heat...

[Peanutcat]

26. Now THAT I can understand!

It takes two to make a baby, and the man should have to pay for it, too.

[mdmc]

35. It is all about the choices, peanutcat!

:kick:

[ieoeja]

39. I don't want to pay child support.

I don't want to have a child. Nor, of course, do I want to pay child support. So I guess I have to remain celibate for the rest of my life.

I don't much like your rules.

[mdmc]

42. Don't give me rules, All I got is rules (Talkin Johnny Cash here!)

If you don't want kids, work towards it. You have choices that would assist you in your goal not to become a father. You have choices, including celibacy, birth control, abortion, and discussion with your partner. Once you become a father, once the mother of your child asks you for child support, you must pay child support. You are then out of options.

If there was some way to "opt out" of child support, then you would still have an option after your child is born. Would you be interested in an "opt out" system for dads that did not want to be dads and don't want to pay child support?

[ieoeja]

84. No

If you agreed to bring the child into this world, then you owe that child something.

Sort of. I don't, after all, want to make it illegal to give up a child for adoption.

[mdmc]

86. yup...adoption should be always be legal

[pitohui]

52. try wearing a rubber once in awhile

the men affected by this are the ones who have every excuse in the book for being too lazy to protect themselves, why should they care, they are not the ones who get the cervical cancers spread by viruses during unprotected sex, they are not the ones who get pregnant, and it is pretty much a given that for whatever reason hiv/aids is rarely transmitted woman to man but only man to woman in this country

the rules seems to be that freedom is only for men and that no freedom should be denied the man and that the woman must suffer the disease, the kids, and all the consequences of unprotected sex w.out any recompense whatever

if rubbers failed as often we hear it told, the entire country would be infected by now, and talk of creating a future generation would be a pretty moot point

no one has to remain celibate, they just need to buy and use a durn rubber, how hard is that?

and if you are not actually all that turned on, if you are not erect enough to keep the rubber in place, stop trying to jab it in to prove something that you aren't fooling anybody anyway, how hard is that?

try it sometimes, yes, just follow that same advice your dad and your army sargeant gave you, use a rubber

[ieoeja]

85. I ALMOST always wear a rubber.

Like the man in Illinois who legally put forth the proposal to give expectant fathers the right to opt-out (his equivalent of choosing abortion), I did once have unprotected sex with a woman who said she couldn't get pregnant. A few months later she approached me to say she was pregnant, and to ask me what I intended to do about it.

"Not a damn thing," I replied, "unless you're looking for money for an abortion. I suppose I could pay for that if you want." While I'd known the woman for years, we were had not ever dated. It was a one night stand, and we never pretended otherwise.

For the record, she was NOT pregnant. She is now. And it amazes me how many people assume I am the father which is impossible unless the gestation period has been eight years.

FYI: the man who sponsored the proposal in Illinois had actually been dating the mother for years. And they had had unprotected sex because she said, she couldn't get pregnant. A couple months after they broke up, she found out that she was pregnant, and he has been shelling out money for several years now.

[mdmc]

89. horrible

I have never heard the arguement that opting out is the same as abortion. One situation ends the life of the child. The other leaves a living being without financial protection.

[Bridget Burke]

56. If you truly NEVER want to have a child, please get a vasectomy.

I would also advise the young woman in the OP--who NEVER wanted to be a mother--to get her tubes tied.

[mdmc]

62. regarding her in the OP

I think that she has changed her position now regarding being a mom. When I was with her, she didn't want kids...ever... Now she is at a different place as all of our friends have kids...

She was always about her options...having options... and having a kid with me was not an option.

:kick:

[Bridget Burke]

71. Yes. Lots of people say "NEVER"...

But they really want to keep their options open.

I doubt having a kid with YOU was the problem. She just wasn't ready.

[mdmc]

79. lol...thanks Bridget

It wan't as much about me, as it was my situation. I am not rich. Rich people generally only date rich people. It seems that rich people never marry non-rich people.

She wasn't ready, and I was not rich. I still talk to her (she is one of my best republican buds). As she gets older (and remains single), she seems to lighten up on the whole wealth thing. In a couple years, perhaps she will reconsider.:)

[ieoeja]

87. I am seriously thinking about it.

I'm forty-four. I KNOW I will never want to have children at this point.

However, if we turn back the clock twenty years, then I would have been singing a different tune. I certainly wanted to get married, start a family, etc. But of the women I slept with, and there weren't that many, I only ever wanted to marry the one. Had any of the others gotten pregnant, I would have expected her to either have an abortion, or raise the child on her own. I never made any pretense otherwise.

Except that one time when she said she would sleep with me if I would pretend it meant something and if I would agree to take her out on at least one date afterwards. I have no problem trying to add the fantasy, as long as we both know the truth. So I did, and the date was one of the most enjoyable I have ever had. Went to one of those dinner theatres where they interact with the audience. I stand out of the crowd, so we got a lot of attention.

I rather wish she and I had been able to click. I could give a list of positives about the woman, and not come up with a single negative (okay, maybe one, she LIKED the 'burbs; shudder). But we just didn't click.

[mdmc]

90. thanks for sharing

um. that is all.

[Maru Kitteh]

105. Any time you have unprotected sex with a child bearing age female you KNOW

there is a chance she may become impregnated unless you've had a proven successful vasectomy or you are 100% sure beyond any shadow of a doubt she's had a hysterectomy. Your choice ends when you decide to let your sperm enter a female with any possibility of fertility. I don't much buy into the "tricky" conniving female idea but no matter what she tells you - you, and only you are responsible for taking your own precautions when it comes to your own reproduction. This business of men going about getting their skis waxed and crying like the Dickens when they have to face the consequences of their actions is cowardly and revolting, no matter how much one may think of themselves.

Get the vasectomy and make sure it's done properly or learn to understand that you may have to face consequences you obviously find disturbing.

[mdmc]

107. a kick for your understanding of this matter! Thanks for the post.

[Katherine Brengle]

31. Thank you for a very different perspective----

It is absolutely necessary to have these conversations with our partners. Without open, two-way communication, it is impossible to fully understand what your partner wants, feels, dreams...

Especially when it comes to the issue of having children--if you are with a person who wants them and you do not, or vice versa, that relationship i likely to fail if you both feel very strongly about your positions.

It is good that you found this out--if only it didn't happen more or less by accident--we all need to learn how to talk frankly and honestly about this.

[mdmc]

37. The OP is actually about child support

Men (like me) do have choices when it comes to paying child support. Our choices come in the form of excepting responsibility for our actions. We can avoid sex, practice safe sex, communicate with our partners, and advocate for abortion. However, once the child support request is in the mail, a man is out of choices.

The premise of the OP was that men do not have a choice when it comes to paying child support.

[aikoaiko]

40. I'm for required child support too, but I'm also in favor of accountabilit

I don't understand why mothers who receive child support aren't required to keep books on the where the money goes and be required to show how they contribute a certain amount of money to the raising of their child. Of course it wouldn'tbe the same amount as the father because of rearing responsibilities of the mother. Of course, if the father is the primary physical custodian then everything should be reversed.

Maybe I've been watching too many Kanye West videos.

[mdmc]

43. Did you hear the golddigger remix? I will post it if you have not.

I agree with your :kick: for accountability.

[aikoaiko]

48. No, not yet, please post if you c an. nt

[mdmc]

50. I didn't check if this link still worked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4715157 :kick:

[pitohui]

53. they have a judge looking at all this

the mothers already have a judge who is poking into every bit of their personal finance and their personal life, the money is indeed accounted for and judges seem to have a funny idea of how little kids eat, which is why you hear abt these horrid low support payments that barely keep the kid in diapers

judges last bought diapers off the back of a truck in 1950 apparently

[mdmc]

63. I was pretty sure that there was all sorts of accountability in place

thanks for the heads up. :kick:

[aikoaiko]

88. Which state has judges doing auditing of child support money?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. i never want kids and if i ever got accidentally pregnant i would abort

in a heartbeat.

i let anyone i am dating know this by the third date.

[mdmc]

44. Thanks for posting lioness,

You are a beautiful young lady....witty and smart...thoughtfull and caring (from what I have read by you in the lounge. This is the first time that I have seen you post over in GD. I have never really met you and don't pretend to know what you are really like). I would be honored to date and have a relationship with you (knowing what I know). I would be willing to accept this limitation (no babies) to our relationship in order to continue having a relationship with you. I would work hard at avoiding a pregnancy with you. If it occurred, I would support you and your decision.

My choice in the matter is that I can walk away after the third date. I could say, "no thanks" and move on. If I decide to stay with you, then I must abdicate my opposition to abortion of my own (potential) child. I will have effectively made a decision to leave this decision up to you. This is what happened in the OP. I cannot force you to have a baby.

My intention in the OP was to help men understand that they do have a choice in regards to paying child support.

[American Tragedy]

46. I am the exact same way, as are several of my friends.

Some men seem to take it personally, but they're very wrong - my decision not to have children was made long, long ago, and it has nothing to do with them. It's a reflection of my fundamental beliefs and goals in life.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. i made the decision when i was 12-13...

[mdmc]

68. you are still young, and may even change your mind sometime.

Do you know what led you to the decision not to have kids at such a young age?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. people have been saying i will change my mind for the last 15 years

so far they are so wrong, every year i live my resolve gets stronger

there are many reasons why i dont want kids...feel free to pm me if you really want to know

[mdmc]

76. I used to feel the same way, then my sister had a baby

Before my nephew, I had always hated the idea of passing my (depressive and obsessive) genes on to my offspring. I was entirely committed to adoption. Now... I am less committed.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

78. my genes are fine. its the overpopulation of the world i am concerned with

and the fact that you dont have to have your own child...to love a child

[mdmc]

81. overpop was a biggie for me too

but the world has resources, enough for everyone, it is those rat worms republicans that allows hunger, poverty and so on.

I am also very selfish. The idea of thinking about someone else before myself used to scare me.

I'm still down with adopting, but if I met the right lady, and she wanted to be pregnant and be a mommy, I think that I could now accommodate such a situation.

That being said,

I was down in Brooklyn yesterday, and the baby (my nephew) pee'ed on my cashmere sweatpants. I remembered why I never wanted to have kids...

ps- my sister took me to Beets on 7th again. I love that place! You must try it!

[REP]

110. I Made The Decision When I Was 9. I'm 41 Now, and Still Child-Free

You know, it really, really pisses us childfree people off when we're told we'll change our minds. Do you say that to your pregnant friends?

I'm sterilized. I don't think I'll change my mind - senility doesn't run in my family.

[American Tragedy]

92. I have never wanted children at all. Ever.

I can't remember a time in my life when I had any real desire to procreate. Even as a child I was very squeamish at the idea, though my aversion to it has definitely grown with time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

93. as has mine

[Nobody]

99. And mine

I was told once by a woman who claimed she disliked kids until she had her own. No WAY am I going to gamble that way. Besides, my home is not safe for little ones and I really don't want kids. Ever. When menopause comes, I'll be relieved.

My family has taken many years before they could understand that not everyone thinks drooling infants are cute.

At about age 5, kids start becoming fun.

[REP]

111. Same Here!

I knew at 9 that I would never be a mother. I'm 41 and sterilized now, so no, I never "changed my mind." In the 15 years I've been with my Loved One, we've never for a moment regretted not reproducing; in fact, we rejoice nearly every day that we didn't.

[pitohui]

55. we all say that

however it is a reality that pregnancy changes the hormone balance in the body which in turn changes the mood and emotions of some women, causing them to be like a different person and to have a complete change of mind and not to be able to go thru w. a termination

everyone is different and the man who feels "tricked" may not have been any more "tricked" than the woman who saw her entire personality and plans re-arranged by a shift of hormones

abortion is a good back-up, it works, but you still have to be cautious because you don't know how a pregnancy might change you, many women it doesn't change, but a few it sure does, just as a few women fall victim to post-natal depression

god is a piss-poor engineer

[mdmc]

65. abortion is very tricky with emotions

causes a lot of trouble with your emotions, imho. (based on exp. of friends).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. i think abortion and the reactions to it is largely cultural

in this culture women will feel guilt about aborting a fetus...the abortion debate in this country goes from "it is a necessary evil" to "you are killing a child"...


my friends who have gotten abortions in india have had no real emotional reactions to their abortions

[mdmc]

77. All of the girls that I know were troubled by it.

Some talk to me about, some don't. They are all 'mericans. To some, it was really not a big deal at all, and made them stronger.

[Nobody]

100. I suppose running a gantlet does things to people

If people let you make your own choices and laid off the guilt trips, if they didn't stand outside doctors offices yelling about how evil you and and about how Katrina is your fault, if they didn't give lectures about how you can't get that prescription for contraception filled here, if you're discouraged from reporting rapes because of the still-way-too-common "she's a slut" defense, is there any wonder there are women who are traumatized?

The amazing thing is that there are huge numbers of women who aren't traumatized when everything in our culture tries to make you feel like a demon from someone else's nightmare when you try to live your own life.

Abortion is not evil. But prevention is safer.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. god is a piss-poor engineer

most brilliant statement of the day!

[lukasahero]

59. One assumes, then, that you and your partner(s)

are taking every precaution to prevent this, yes?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. we use birth control. and that too is our business, not yours.

[question everything]

58. What love is

"It was then that I learned what love is. Love is when you fully bond with another, and care as much about the other as you do for your self."

Love is when you want to spend the rest of your life with your mate, to grow old together, to share moments of joy and of sorrow. Love is to respect the wishes and desires of one another. Love is also compromising. Understanding that we are two different people with different desires and wishes and hopes and when they do not mesh, to accept the compromise and to live with it.

Love is to think beyond one's wishes and if they do not materialize, to accept them. This is called maturity.

I hope that you find the love of your life and have kids and be happy with it. But I hope that you will be mature enough to, first, realize that opinions and wants change as we go through life. Yes, even people's opinions about having kids do. Understand also that you bring children to the world to grow up and to be their own people. They are not there to validate you, or to fill the marriage, or to support you in your old age or, worse, because this is how it should be.

Understand that if you've raised them properly, they will leave the nest to build their own life. And you'd better hope that the love of your life will still be there, that the love will still be there once the kids are gone.

[mdmc]

66. I really don't know what love is, to be honest

I thought that I was in love with the girl in the OP. Sometimes I still think that I am in love with her.

The part of the OP that you quote really represents my understanding that the girl in the OP did not love me.

"It was then that I realized that she did not love me."

This relationship was rather one sided, I really liked her. She enjoyed spending time with me.

Your post required that I reevaluate many things. Rethink things. Thank you very much for your post.

[Maru Kitteh]

106. I totally respect people who chose not to have kids, but I'm so happy that

I have my daughter. You can love a partner, but you'll never feel anything that comes close to what you'll feel for your child. That love is crazy, hard and fierce. It's 24 hours a day until they put you in the ground and it never wanes.

I hope you find someone to share your life with, and children. I think you will be a thoughtful and tender parent.

[mdmc]

109. thank you for your kind thoughts and words

know any single girls?

[REP]

112. I totally respect people who choose to have kids, but I'm so happy that

I have my Loved One. You can love a partner if you have kids, but you'll never know what it is to be completely, totally in love with utter devotion to your partner with the distraction of a child. We know that the other will always come first with eachother and all our time is free to be spent enjoying our lives.

Don't like the condesention? Neither do I. You may think you "know" what love is, and you may know what it is for you, but do not try to define it for those you say you "respect."

[mdmc]

113. thanks for the post

[Shine]

67. Thanks for your thoughtful post, mdmc.

As painful as it was to recognize your girlfriend wasn't "the one", in terms of life partner, the silver lining is that you now have more Clarity about your relationship with her and about what you want in the future...and that, in itself, is a blessing.

I wish you Peace and Comfort as you move forward in your life.

And I respect your willingness to be responsible for any pregnancy you help create.

It sounds as if you are a man of Integrity. :thumbsup:

[mdmc]

69. Thanks Shine!

I really appreciate your post. Peace and low stress!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

72. I'm curious about what you said at the end.....

"I have been in other relationships, where the girl wanted to get pregnant, and I did not want to have kids."

Were these girls just talking about someday....or were they like "Let's get pregnant right now"? It amazes me that there are girls out there who think having a kid is a total validation of life, or something akin to buying a new car. Especially since obviously you weren't married to them.

[mdmc]

82. I was living with a girl, and it wasn't working out

she was grasping at straws to keep me, and thought that a kid would do it. Luckily, nothing happened kid wise and I was able to get out of the scene. After we "broke up" I felt that she was really trying to get pregnant by me (we still hooked up for a time afterwords).

That girl really dug me. I am often ashamed that I allowed the relationship to continue because I knew that she was not the one, and she seemed to really love me. I really regret this.

[thinkingwoman]

80. Great story! Thanks for sharing it.

I want you to know that the love of my life (we've been married 10 years now) used to be in a relationship just like the one you described. He loved her, but he wanted children someday and she did not.

Her loss was my gain. :evilgrin:

Relationships only work long term when people want the same things out of life. Children or no children is a deal breaker if the couple does not agree.

[mdmc]

83. thanks for your post.

I really wish I had lost her to a women. At least I could fantasize about that situation.:)

I like your sig line, by the way:kick:

[FreedomAngel82]

95. Great post and I agree

You should becareful but when you are careful you don't always get off (well no pund intended). I once knew someone who's parents had sex and used a condom and the condom broke and she got pregnant with this person. Which is why I think it's important to have pills like the "morning after" and BC. The fundies don't want us women to have either. They don't care the type of enviornment a child is born in and adoption isn't always the best case. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) A girl would be lucky to have you.

[mdmc]

98. thanks freedomangel

I always love your input at DU. Peace and low stress, mdmc

[omega minimo]

96. Skinner's story inspired another thread reflecting on the personal aspect

if you are interested. It is intended as an olive branch thread, as your OP clearly is. Well done. :thumbsup:

Driving With The Brakes On
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=622528&mesg_id=622528

I want to come back and read the whole thread. Thank you for a beautiful and thoughtful OP that generated a good discussion.

:grouphug:

[mdmc]

101. kick for your branch!

:kick:

[omega minimo]

102. Here's to the recent battles inspiring a breakout of PEACE on DU!

:toast:

If nothing else, the past week's gender wars showed the pointlessness of some of these slapfights (as if we didn't know)

and how everyone can help by simply slowing down and reading/writing carefully before reacting. (yeah right :rofl: )

while we're wrestling in the mud, the country and the planet are being destroyed.

:bounce:

[mdmc]

103. we are tasked with making DU kinder, gentler

[omega minimo]

104. and another task of changing perceptions.......

the chimperor has no clothes

or to paraphrase the title about reagan:

the clothes have no chimperor

[mdmc]

108. thanks

might put this in my journal.