DISCUSSION: When freepers spend time infiltrating DU, we win.

[benburch]

A recent self-outing of a Freeper Mole has caused me to wonder if it is a bad thing that they come here to troll around and attempt to cause disunity or not?

On one hand, they poison the well by pretending to be a progressive by then twisting the ideas of the progressive movement until they are parodies of themselves, especially in promulgating ridiculous conspiracy theories, thereby providing much mirth to our detractors, and pretending to be people they are not, like members of the military with actual experience in Iraq.

On the other hand, they serve us by putting their energies into stopping our unstoppable movement, and allowing theirs to rot on the vine.

I lean towards the latter idea. Its a good thing they are here wasting their time rather than trying to push their agenda where it might do them some good. And it is a sign of how viscerally worried about us they are that they would expend that sort of energy here.

Discussion?

[JackBeck]

1. I don't mind Moles, Ben.

Maybe they'll learn something. If not, at least it challenges us to craft some debating skills.

[wake.up.america]

6. Doesn't bother me a bit The moles quickly expose themselves by being....

stupid.

[demosincebirth]

49. You go that right. They can't help it, its in their genes.

[Radio_Guy]

78. If they would discuss civilly

I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I am yet to have a civil discussion with one. Either they act stupid and say things without any proof to back them up, or they just try to shout you down thinking the louder they yell the more right they are.

[The Doctor.]

141. Even then, it serves our purpose more...

So longas they are here, they have no choice but to be exposed to thoughts and ideas that frankly make sense.

Even worse... they can't prove most of what they see here wrong.

This only adds to their dissonance, their itching, gnawing sense that something is wrong.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

We're in the 'fight' stage now.

[Mythsaje]

11. I've been engaged in a debate

with a fellow author who leans Libertarian. She says that while she doesn't always agree with her, my arguments are some of the best she's ever encountered. And she did the whole debate thing in high school and college.

I've learned more in my couple of years here than I ever did on the mixed boards I frequented before then. Maybe because DUers seem to be willing to pick apart even arguments they agree with if they see a logical fallacy or something else that doesn't quite jibe.

[JackBeck]

29. I agree.

I gave up on Yahoo! because there's no rhyme or reason.

I got banned from FR for simply correcting Freepers about what Hepatitis A is. I couldn't believe I git bumped trying to explain what causes the virus. I realize that opinion is held to a higher state of esteem over there, but come on!

[windy252]

142. Please tell me you're kidding.

Seriously?

[benburch]

146. I believe him.

They LOVE banning anybody who is not joining in the general stupidity.

It's total group-think there.

Other Conservative boards are like that to a greater or lesser degree.

[Arkansas Granny]

14. I'm with you on this one. They will undoubtably hear a point of

view over here that they might not have ever considered before. A little debate never hurt anyone.

[Marie26]

90. Me either.

If they're being good little moles & not insulting people, I don't care.

[Mythsaje]

2. Doesn't bother me...

The more time the mole spent here trying to cause conflict, the less time they had to spread evil through the rest of the land.

;)

[Skidmore]

3. I missed something. Who was it?

PM me if it cannot be posted. Gosh, I miss all the fun.

[benburch]

5. Link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4867167

[jumpoffdaplanet]

27. I don't remember reading any of the mole's posts

Didn't make any impact, did he?

And he gave money? Was that supposed to make him not look like a mole?

[ClassWarrior]

33. I do. And I knew he was a troll. I didn't mind wasting his time.

:rofl:

16+5=2006

NGU.

[SaveElmer]

43. He used to post quite a bit on the Bird Flu stuff..nt

[Old and In the Way]

45. That makes me feel better.

I read enough of his comments to suspect he was not being honest with his politics. Too many of those "you're making us look ridiculous" type of posts.

I really don't get the whole 'pretend' game. I mean, it is an anonymous board and you can take on any personna you want, but why hang in for 3 years with people whose politics you don't like? I suppose I could pretend to be a Bushbot over at FR....but why would I want to waste my time playing such an elaborate game? I really hope he wasn't a "silverhair", age-wise. I can see a kid playing this as an RPG, but an middle-aged adult? Pretty pathetic.

[VaYallaDawg]

50. I definitely couldn't pretend to be a Bushbot over there.

Too fond of sleeping at night. And you're right on about the silver hair - that would really be pretty sad for him/her.

[Marie26]

93. I got the impression

he was a bored retiree. Who knows? Honestly, I suspect some people start out w/an agenda & then just get sucked into it. DU is hopelessly addictive, probably for a "mole" as much as us.

[XanaDUer]

121. Never heard of him.

I've been here quite a long time.

Well, buh bye.

[Sammy Pepys]

4. Infiltrating DU?

When did this happen?

Well, maybe they'll learn a little something while they're here. They can't be that important to the conservative movement if they're here all the time.

[electropop]

7. It definitely shows they are afraid.

And yes, it's good to exercise our debating skills. I have occasionally been compelled to assemble a list of solid counter-arguments for freeperpoo and later found it rolled off my tongue when discussing with family/co-workers.

[rox63]

8. Who knows?

Maybe we've changed a few freep minds... :shrug:

[warrens]

9. wonder what mole stew tastes like

There are a few of them I wouldn't mind fileting and tossing into the crockpot.

[movonne]

10. Personally I can't stand them...same old shit spewing from their

mouths...I think a good many are hired by the RNC and faux as they have a script and say the same things over and over again. If you could get a straight answer from them then I might be able to put up with them...

[ourbluenation]

12. I've been deep stealth over there for ions...just love pointing

out their stupidty from a "conservative" point of view....sometimes wonder if the folks who respond in the affirmative are my fellow DUr's!!!

:toast:

[Old and In the Way]

13. Some show up to do battle...........

and get educated in the process.

Actually, I've noticed a major reduction in trolling on the open boards over the past year. I think the dwindling few apologists that still post defenses of Bush Republicanism are either paid RNC posters or people who just can't face reality. There really is no more middle ground supporting the Republican Syndicate these days.

[mattclearing]

15. Wasn't it Bush that said something like

As long as they're talking about me, and we're talking about me, we're all talking about me.

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

[madrchsod]

16. they come here because our site is easier to navigate

which they must make them wonder why their crappy site has never been updated. for all the money they spend on that site you would think they would demand a modern layout but no they are to fucking stupid to notice or care....
i don`t care if they come here most of them are really harmless..to read some really big assholes go to huffs site...

[Tiggeroshii]

17. If they are civil.

Of course there have been uncivil porgressives here getting kicked out for not exactly disagreeing in the most civil of manners when the time came around. So of course, if freepers come around and subject themselves to all we stand for and believe in, they will then immerse themselves into this way of thinking. We are, on this forum, obviously the majority and any attempt to try to change that will prove vain. Reading the stuff on here on a daily basis will no doubt give them incentive to think more like us and unglue themselves from their limited thought.

All in all, it gives them a different way of thinking and if they don't submit to this different way completely, they at least get a good sense of a better persepective. It will give them a little bit of a larger outlook on politics, and a broader persepective on pretty much anything -in my humble opinion, is a good thing.

edited for clarity

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. The funny thing is, that "mole" was banned once...and reinstated

because a consensus was not reached. Also, that mole joined up just before the Primary Wars, not almost four years ago. That mole only proves, by virtue of his existence, that people of different mind set are welcome here. :shrug: I went to see what you were talking about, and was not in the least surprised to see the username he had here. More than just this once upon a time mod didn't think he "fit in well". :hi:

[benburch]

23. This once-upon-a-time mod agrees with you. nt

[jpak]

19. Did I miss something????

n/t

[Tsiyu]

20. The one in question was well-known

he's "gotten bored" because he has nothing to say and never did.

He was on my radar from his first post, and his leaving is a sign that WE WIN!!!!!!!!

[Lorien]

111. I think that he was finding it harder and harder to defend his masters

he wasn't bored-he was at a loss. Maybe he was also waking up to the fact that he has wasted many precious hours of his life as a fraud and not getting a damned bit of payoff for it.

[Skinner]

21. It depends.

If they succeed in spreading division, then it's not a good thing for us.

But the mole you're referring to wasn't that kind of mole. He was totally lame. I went back and checked his record and spot-checked some of his posts. He rarely broke the rules. He was hardly spreading any division at all. I thought his postings were indistinguishable from a moderate Dem. He wasted four years of his life for nothing. I almost feel sorry for the guy.

[mattclearing]

26. LOL.

Pathetic.

[benburch]

30. I really don't believe that very many of them "succeed".

First, we are a raucous bunch that have no problem dividing ourselves. Will Rogers said it; "I'm not a member of any organized political party; I'm a Democrat."

Second, with the exception of some of the swiftboating of Clark during the Primaries here, I simply don't think they have ever had a measurable effect. And even that activity was very unlikely to have effected Clark's chances because he was SUCH a longshot.

[mattclearing]

34. But so many Dems were taken in by that Clark swiftboating too.

It was extra tempting because of the whispers of Clinton-shadow candidate.

[billyskank]

87. Suuure they did

:)

[realisticphish]

89. riiiiiggght

:eyes:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

129. Which Clark swiftboating? Where RWers planted the story that Clark was

responsible for the Polier nonsense? I think a few people were briefly taken in, most saw right through it, and it had no significant effect.

The biggest problem for Clark, by far, is that he started his candidacy too late, and the media chose to ignore him, so by the time he could get a win (OK) it was way too late for him.

If the swiftboating thing you are talking about is that stupid RW plant, it had no effect on Clark's candidacy IMHO.

[annabanana]

44. lol

oh who knows.... maybe he'll think about it, sleep on it a couple more nights and come to the light..

[mzmolly]

108. Sheesh, one would think a mole would go out in a blaze of glory

or something?

BTW, my guess is he became discouraged that the one strong point his party had has been exposed for the myth it was: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=198543&mesg_id=199590

Poor old man, now they have nothing to run on - it was probably painful to stick around.

[SidDithers]

22. Austin, we've got a mole in Dr. Evil's organization...

Sid

[MissWaverly]

24. I don't agree

I am not going to excuse what happened to Andy Stephenson as a light hearted prank and I
have read posts by DU'ers who are discouraged to use this site because they have been villified. We are paying to belong here, we welcome those who come here who can engage in
civil debate; but those who come to abuse us should not be encouraged. I expect the hate
attacks to increase because the election year is starting to heat up. I believe that the
destructive trolls are paid to come here and why should they not be bounced off. I have
seen them completely dominate the DNC website with their trash in '04 and I quit going there.

[benburch]

36. Well, the Andy thing was a whole different level of event.

I believe the people behind that were paid GOP operatives. Not simple trolls.

[MissWaverly]

41. yes, but that's who will be coming in droves

and that's who should be bounced, listen, we can talk to the guy who thinks dems are
naive about spending or about national security what we can't take are the professionals
who try to split our boards with divisive postings to alienate us. We do represent
a force to be reckoned with.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

25. I think it's a good thing, Ben.

We're smart enuf to figure out what they're up to, the moment they start trying to string a coupla sentences together. In the meantime, they are, despite themselves, learning something!

It is also great sport. I lured one out a few Saturday nites back, with a subject line about Limbaugh being a "Butt-trumpet". After six whole posts, the guy's head completely exploded and he laid into us commie-pinko-fags. Cheaper than goin' to a movie . . .

[Hobarticus]

28. It proves how bankrupt their own ideology is if they have to sabotage ours

I take it as a compliment.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Well I missed the "grand outing"

I know this happens on occation, and I personally find it hilarious that anybody would spend that much time developing a "secret persona"-Very dungeons and dragans in a way. (My way of saying immature, apologies to D&D enthusisists everywhere)

But you may be right. I can't think of a bigger energy expender-- if your really cared about your ideology,-- than to hang out where you secretly don't agree with anything, and completely waste your time. So that says they don't know what to do with their time that actually will do thier politics any good. I mean what are you going to do write a book? "My time as a Freeper troll Undercover at DU" Or do they just go back to their more comfortable websites and giggle and boy did I fool them--Like it matters? Waste. Of. Time.

I find many diverse opinions here (Many that lead me to research if I'm not sure of my facts) as well as those who agree. I've become far more physically activist. I reach out those apolitical friends of mine with accurate information and informed opinion. This is how a simple discussion board has improved my political involvement (not to mention links to awesome blogs and websites)Can't imagine what it would be like to hang out at some site where I had to cringe every other post, and pretend.

[benburch]

32. As I haven't played D&D since 1978...

...when I was in college. I forgive you. :)

[Mythsaje]

58. As a long-time D&Der, I'd like to point out

that it's not a D&D trait to develop a "secret persona." Gaming is much like acting, with the actors developing the roles they play, and the script ad-libbed, but mature players are very aware of the difference between the role and the player.

[ismnotwasm]

74. Sorry!

I knew that comparison was a bad idea when I was typing it. I've known some gamers.
I'll think of a better comparison, I promise:(

[Mythsaje]

84. No worries...

:) Try this one...the undercover narcotics officer who makes friends with people he (or she) knows he'll have to betray sometime down the line.

Now, that's gotta screw people up in the head.

[ismnotwasm]

117. LOL

Ok..deception as a job and a lifestyle...

[Walt Starr]

35. It's how I use my buddy list!

When I suspect somebody of being a mole, I put 'em on my buddy list. It's fun going through every now and again seeing all the tombstones.

:evilgrin:

[benburch]

38. What the heck is the buddy list GOOD for?

I've never figured out how it is intended to be useful.

[Walt Starr]

39. But I found a danged entertaining use for it

Tracking my mole suspects.

sometimes I have to pull somebody off it. the mole that outted himself was in there for quite a while.

:evilgrin:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

131. "Keep your friends close... and your enemies CLOSER (on your bud list)!"

[uppityperson]

140. me too. sort of reverse buddy list for fun

not that everyone on my buddy list is suspected of moledom, but some are. I find it amusing when I try to add a suspected person to my buddy list and they are already there.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. Say you need to PM somebody...yet they haven't made a recent post

and you don't want to wait for the profile page to load up...You go to your buddy list, find their name and Voila! It's how I just PM'd you! Even though I could have off of this post come to think of it. :)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

85. I use it to list everyone in my city/state

Then when protests are announced or MeetUps are scheduled, I have a list of everybody local. :)

It will also be handy when the whole goddamn system crashes and we have to meet in basements under cover of darkness lest the SS find us out. :scared:

lol

[Old and In the Way]

53. great use! I've been wondering how to use this feature and I'll

put it to use that way. I never alert (well, not in a loong time) because I like to mix it upwith people I disagree with. So that'd be a good way to track the usual suspects.

[EFerrari]

61. God, I'm such a schmuck. I thought the "buddy list" was for buddies!

lol

[Walt Starr]

98. LOL, okay, I admit I have a few people I like in my biddy list

but only the ones who spell their screen names in funky ways that I cannot remember.

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

123. It's good to see you posting, Walt, even if I hardly ever agree with you.

:)

[Walt Starr]

124. Eh, probably won't last

I'm finding it difficult to remain within the bounds of the rules.

[EFerrari]

125. Me, too. But, it's still good to see you. :-) n/t

[Swamp Rat]

37. 'Real gold is not afraid of the fire of the crucible'

Most do not last long, and the ones who do last, they eventually go away as well. Long-time DUers can spot both types.

Personally, the end result of their mischief only makes me stronger and smarter, and want to work harder.

Though trolls are an irritating phenomena and unintended byproduct, I believe they actually perform a positive role as well - they help to disseminate information. Not only do they bring back this information to their lair, so to speak, they waste an incredible amount of energy trying to interrupt our activities. For example: when exterminating a roach infestation with boric acid powder, it doesn't kill most roaches right away. They walk on it, go back to their nest and clean the poison off, and eventually die there. Then, the other roaches eat the dead, poisoned one and then they die also.

:D

[CrazyOrangeCat]

48. good roach analogy . . . but the picture . . .

priceless.

[brentspeak]

65. Not really

If someone's "mole" says things that clearly, unmistakably echo Rush Limbaugh talking points -- that poster is usually quickly kicked off the site in no time flat. On the other hand, if the mole acts like a total left-winger, they seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, and are allowed to post whatever anti-Democratic party, conspiracy-theory garbage, or stereotypical "the USA is the enemy!" claptrap to their heart's content. Judging from posts I read on the "other" web-sites, the latter case seems to be true. Which might even be worse than having somebody debate from a Republican point-of-view.

[Swamp Rat]

70. I never go to their websites

Why waste my time?

My point stands. They come here, they get infected with liberalism. ;)

I bet that the attrition rate is much higher at freeptardville than it is here. As they try to force each other to goose-step exactly the same way, they significantly reduce their numbers. :D

[brentspeak]

76. My reasons to check the other sites out

are sort of academic: I'm deep into a project concerning the political environment of today's USA.

[Swamp Rat]

91. Well, when your research is done, I'm sure many will like to see your data

What is your methodology? Are you seeking significant correlations?

[foreverdem]

40. I hope they may learn something

Maybe read a post that will open their eyes to a point of view that makes sense, get them to honestly think, instead of recite right wing talking points.

[Quantess]

46. I have a question

There has been mention of disabling your profile as looking suspicious, and I can see why that looks dubious.
Why do some DUers disable their profiles? What would that accomplish?

[CrazyOrangeCat]

51. yeah, I agree.

I find that strange.

I can certainly understand a lady wishing to keep her location secret . . . but a tidbit of info doesn't hurt anything. Some profiles are very funny!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[MostlyLurks]

69. Speaking as someone who once had their profile disabled...

I did it mostly because:
1) I didn't know what was included in the profile.
2) I was too lazy to find the answer to #1.
Ergo...
3) I assumed it would include information I didn't want handed out, i.e. my e-mail address or something.

When I found out that a lot of people felt it was a "troll mark", I enabled it.

Mostly

[Boojatta]

143. A disabled profile doesn't encourage ad hominem arguments

"You just think that because you're a big/small, young/old so-and-so" is difficult to say if you don't know the person's size, age, or so-and-so status.

[Uncle Joe]

47. I welcome any freeper, troll or ogre.

They can come anytime, the water is just fine, if they refuse to drink, they will die of thirst.

[Sammy Pepys]

54. Yeah, bring 'em on....

Why do they have to be "moles?" Why don't they just come out and say "I'm a conservative?" What are they afraid of? What do they gain by keeping it a secret?

[MostlyLurks]

75. Well, I don't know that that would work.

For one thing, the rules pretty much say "this is a board for Democrats", so they probably feel like they'd get shitcanned ASAP if they said "I'm a conservative here for debate".

For another, a mole, by defintion, is not interested in productive debate, so proclaiming themselves a conservative would defeat their real goal, which is to stir up dissent and acrimony among Democrats and liberals. The arguments of one's enemies have far less impact than the arguments of one's allies. There's a distinct difference between a conservative mole and a conservative.

Finally, a conservative on this board is simply going to get dog piled as everything they say, whether reasonable or not, will attract every DU vigilante (a term used with no connotation of good or bad, simply the right word) to engage them in endless argumentation.

Mostly

[Sammy Pepys]

81. Oh....

Well, that kind of stinks. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

[MostlyLurks]

86. "You gotta do what you gotta do": I'm not sure what you mean. n/t

[Sammy Pepys]

88. I mean....

...to keep DU productive and not becoming a big flamefest.

[Marie26]

95. They'd get banned

Pretty quick.

[tabasco]

52. I haven't been keeping up - WHO WAS IT?

Can somebody give a username to see if I recognize it?

I like playing with trolls. Sort of like a cat playing with a wounded bird. Cruel, but somewhat satisfying.

[Skinner]

55. This guy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x622228

[gkhouston]

57. oh, him

I just thought he was a garden-variety asshole.

[tabasco]

59. Thanks ! I vaguely remember the name. n/t

[bvar22]

115. Awww Shoot.

I was hoping it was someone else.
:(

[stepnw1f]

118. I Always Knew He Was

Score!!!!

[brentspeak]

56. Not necessarily

Anyone who posts here for the sake of disruption does succeed in bringing down the quality of debate. It doesn't matter if that person is a "mole" from FR or CU, an anarchist, non-Democrat from the Communist or Green parties, or just a career troll looking to satisfy his/her trolling addiction; it's never a positive to have to deal with disruption.

Of course, there's plenty of people here, who, however "real" they may be, and while not "moles", are disruptive by their very nature: left-wingers who are not Democrats, Dem staffers trying to propagate dirt about their bosses' Dem primary rivals, mentally-unbalanced MIHOP conspiracy nuts -- or just people who don't know how to conduct civil discussions.

As for the mole thing: It's always disturbing to learn that someone who you may bantered with on these boards was here for the sake of subterfuge, but it really should come as no surprise, especially given a) today's partisan political environment; and b) the nature of the Internet itself. Heck, there's an entire website that was created for the very purpose of damaging this website. And a good chunk of the "moles" emanating from that site are simply GOP employees or staffers in some capacity (in addition to your garden-variety, non-professional freeper type). Probably at least 50% of the "DU whack-job" posts that they ridicule as examples of "moonbats" are actually their own creations. (Hint: If someone posts stereotypical over-the-top left-wing claptrap here on DU ("we need to understand the terrorists' feelings!") AND includes the word "Dem" or "Democrat" in his/her username -- you're not wrong to suspect a phony.

[Mythsaje]

60. This is true...

but, on the other hand, there is some validity to the notion that we DO have to understand where the "terrorists" are coming from. If you don't understand the enemy, you'll never have the tools to combat them effectively.

[EFerrari]

62. Have there actually been Green trolls? I've seen this claim before

and really don't know what to make of it. I'm a Green and I don't know anybody who would do something like that. It would be just 'way too stupid to burn bridges with people you need to work with all the time.

:wtf:

/grammar

[brentspeak]

67. Sorry, let me be more clear

I've seen people on these boards saying things like "That's it, I'm disgusted with the Democrats! From now on, I'll vote Green! You should do the same" That does not mean that every Green who posts here behaves in that fashion. For me, as long as a poster backs up the Dems and uses constructive criticism when slagging them, they can be Repubs or Greens and be ok in my book.

[EFerrari]

73. Oh, I see. Yeah -- those calls to leave the party. Sometimes

frustration and sometimes probably staged.

For all I know, there are people who do that. It's just hard to imagine my tree hugging friends in that role. lol

[mzmolly]

122. Greens are allowed to post here, Republicans are not.

So .. it's pretty tough to be considered a "green troll" but there are definately greens and others who are not here to support Democrats.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

126. I can't support one of my senators and I'm just straight up about that.

But, lol, Greens don't tend to be predatory as far as I can tell. It's just not the m.o.

Whatever. There's so much work to do.

[EFerrari]

134. To be more clear, mzmolly:

I don't know about everybody else, but here at DU, I'm not looking to shave the Dems.

I'm looking to find agreement on shared values and actions because my values come before any party affiliation.

I guess, I'm not a very good party member, no matter what party I belong to. I'm the kind of member that party members cuss over. :shrug:

But, DU is an amazing place. And, I'm glad the admins opened it for all liberals although they weenied out by calling us "progressives". :evilgrin:

I've been here a little over a year and have learned so much.

:)

[mzmolly]

147. For the record.

I'm glad your here. :hi:

[EFerrari]

148. Thanks. I just don't want to worry anyone.

Lol

:)

[shanti]

66. "mentally unbalanced MIHOP nuts"???

:eyes: just because one believes in MIHOP or LIHOP doesn't make them "nuts". you lost me on that one, dude.

[brentspeak]

68. OK, then if otherwise normal

at least in need of a major reality-check/common-sense check.

[Sammy Pepys]

71. What is MIHOP?

IS that some sort fo troll calling card or something?

[MostlyLurks]

80. MIHOP = Made It Happen On Purpose

A reference to the idea that the Bush Admin or some segment of the Bush Admin had a direct hand in planning and carrying out the 9/11 attacks.

As opposed to LIHOP = Let It Happen on Purpose. The idea that the Bush admin knew the attacks were coming and deliberately failed to stop them, with the end result being a a means to achieve their political goals.

PNAC (Policy for the New American Century) is most often cited as the long term frame of reason for the MIHOP/LIHOP theories: 9/11 enabled to PNAC cabal to exercise the exact blueprint it wanted for American military engagement.

Mostly

[Sammy Pepys]

82. thanks! n/t

....

[Marie26]

97. Good points

And I think some of the "Freeper" sighting is misguided. Someone who says, for example, that they disagree w/Kerry on health care will immediately be flamed. But the person who posts "BUSH INVOLVED IN TSUNAMI??" will get a rally of supporters! Real "Freepers" will often be the person parodying the most radical left-wing positions, not the person voicing disagreement. By banning one type, & not the other, it creates a situation in which the board becomes inevitably tilted towards those kinds of parodied positions, IMO.

[brentspeak]

100. And then those whacked-out posts are highlighted

by the Cons as "representative examples" of the Democratic party, even though most of the other posts on the thread are sane. With the irony being that at least 1/2 of the loony-tune posts the Cons single out are usually written by one their own, posing as a Democrat. (After which, the loony post gets forwarded to someone like Michelle Malkin, so she can write a column about it whenever the GOP echo chamber HQ fails to provide her with fresh talking points for the week.)

[Marie26]

101. Yep.

It's Create-Your-Own-Outrage, when Repubs. can't find anything to really get outraged over.

[Warren Stupidity]

138. That is one broad bush you've got there.

TROLLS/MOLES: "FR or CU, an anarchist, non-Democrat from the Communist or Green parties, or just a career troll"

DISRUPTERS: "disruptive by their very nature: left-wingers who are not Democrats, Dem staffers trying to propagate dirt about their bosses' Dem primary rivals, mentally-unbalanced MIHOP conspiracy nuts -- or just people who don't know how to conduct civil discussions."

I'm thinking that is one very long list of the unorthodox who do not belong.

One person's "mentally-unbalanced MIHOP conspiracy" is another person's reasonable explanation for reality. How you are able to divine the difference between honest disagreement about a very complicated and almost certainly not as per the Official Story political reality, and your vast array of disrupters moles and whack-jobs is beyond me.

Me, I just like to have a good debate. Does that make me a disrupter? What is wrong with a little disruption anyhow? We have mods to keep it all within bounds.

I find there is value here in the debate, in all of its variety, passionate, polite, even rude, even when your vast list of enemies is engaged. I learn stuff all the time. I certainly learn what I actually believe and how to back up my beliefs.

Haven't you ever noticed that in the real world, you seem to have a lot more facts at your disposal than other people? that you have a much better command of the issues?

To a certain extent, what's to disrupt? This is essentially a debating society and a damn good one.

[Stephanie]

63. I just looked at old PM's and we were alerting on this one in December

he managed to hang on for a while.

[Roon]

64. A little off topic

But the only reason that troll outted himself is because things have gotten really shitty for Bush lately. He couldn't bear being in here hearing all about it so he decided to toss us a hot potato as he left for good.

[lonestarnot]

72. Psssst.... don't do any thinking for them!

[johnnie]

77. I didn't even recognize the name

I guess if they come here and cause some friction between us then it isn't a good thing, but most of them are gone within 10 posts. I don't recall any being here for a long period of time that did any real damage.

I personally don't understand why a person would waste months or even years at a place just to maybe cause a flamewar or have a person get angry. It really makes no sense to me.

Even when I see someone I suspect is a "mole" I don't even alert on them. What's the point? Nine times out of ten they will end up looking like an idiot and be gone soon enough.

What real harm can they do?

[Texasgal]

79. You know.. I am kinda bummed about silverhair

He and I did agree on some things.( Not all...but some ) I feel pretty duped right about now.... Makes me wonder why someone would waste so much time posting here as a mole. I guess I am too gullible. :(

[MostlyLurks]

83. You've fallen into the trap of American politics.

Of course you agreed with him about some things. That's called being a real person. I don't particularly remember him, but if he was a 2nd amendment type, as he seems to have been, then I probably agreed with him on some stuff too.

DU (and FR, et al) reinforce the idea that everybody fits in these narrow little boxes where a D or an R beside ones name neatly sums up everything you believe. Then when you talk to your neighbors over the fence, you find that, holy crap!, they're Republicans and they're not fascists. And they probably look at my Kerry bumper stickers and think "Hmm, who would have thought a liberal could own a home and hold down a job?"

Don't buy into the idea of monolithic self-identity. Me, I'm a cafeteria liberal: I stand on the liberal side of things for the most part, but I'm not ashamed to say there are some things about our side that I disagree with. That makes me MORE liberal, not less.

Frankly, trying to stand on every issue with the Democrats would not be easy because our reps run the gamut from Lieberman (Yay! Bombs!) to Kucinich, and I don't know that you could find a whole lot of issue-by-issue common ground among those two.

Mostly

[Texasgal]

92. Wow... well said..

I assumed I'd be jumped all over here. I was almost afraid to admit that I agreed with him on some issues.

Thank you.

[MostlyLurks]

96. Yeah, well, you ain't out of the woods yet... ;-) n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

103. Hey, I was one of those who got sucked in by Paddy/Cuban Liberal.

I considered "them" friends, even though we didn't always agree. The internet can be a nasty place at times. But the good far outweighs the bad.

[benburch]

112. Oh, that one pissed me off.

I wonder if any of what he posted was true at all. And I wasn't upset because he was on the other side, I was upset because he was a liar.

[Swamp Rat]

119. I bet he is here right now, lurking somewhere.

Though, he has likely altered his online persona and writing style. ;)

I'm still unsure whether he is just a psycho or is actually paid by the RNC.

And yes, he is a compulsive liar. :eyes:

[Marie26]

99. During the port deal fiasco,

I actually went to FR to see the reaction. And I was all surprised - Wow, they can write in complete sentences, they can disagree w/Bush, they like "The Simpsons" too, they can be funny. It really helped me to see how ingrained these stereotypes can become, on both sides. I half-expected a "Freeper" type to be some sort of backward Neanderthal species, but nope, not that different (aside from the politics, of course). Maybe a Freeper who comes to DU realizes that liberals really aren't America-hating Communists who love terrorists, like Rush told them. And that can only be a good thing.

[MostlyLurks]

102. Stereotypes are bad, no matter who's being stereotyped. n/t

[brentspeak]

106. That's why a lot of the "Had an encounter with a Freeper" threads

bother me. I don't know if I believe a lot of those alleged incidents ever took place. I'm sure some of them really occured, but others just seem so far-fetched, even in today's political environment.

One of the times I checked out FR, there was a thread - in addition to the usual Bush/Rove/lets-make-up-BS-about-Kerry cheerleading threads - concerning Walter Mondale's daughter having brain cancer. There were several replies on that thread from Freepers talking about loved ones who suffered and died from exactly that same kind of cancer.

As if it ever needed to be pointed out in the first place, in the end, "they" are really just "us".

[benburch]

113. I'm sure a few are made up.

I'm sure some of those were posted by trolls, too. See, it is easy to mock a group of people when you can put words into their mouths so easily. But then, once that is known, the mockery becomes a farce.

[Mythsaje]

130. Yep...it's my guess

that most of the RW pundit types (in the media and on various message boards) are examples of radical points of view and the average republican tends to be a more reasonable, rational bunch of people. Sometimes misguided, but not interested in promoting corruption or evil. They just don't recognize evil as easily as we might hope.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

132. No. I live in a Repub town in a Repub state. Most of the ones I know

(and that's most PEOPLE I know here) vote that way because of blind "team" loyalty, religion (same thing really), and/or because they have a lot of money and it's their self interest.

I wouldn't characterize their POLITICS as reasonable at all.

[xultar]

94. Don't feel that you are gullible. I take everyone @ face value and that

makes me the better person.

I want to believe there are good in all. I want to believe that if there are convervatives posting here they aren't trying to cause problems.

I agree with conservatives on some issues too. I think that is good at least we have some common ground. We will need that common ground to defeat the NeoCons.

We are a much better community for being able to have moles and for having people who want to be moles. There is no way they can come here and not learn what we have in common or that we are right on most if not all the issues.

If a conservative can come here and post not cause problems and contribute I'm all for it. As I am for Greens to come here and contribute not cause problems and contribute.

It will take all kinds to rid the US of the NeoCon element. The sooner we recongise that the better.

[mzmolly]

104. In all honesty, they are likely bored with RW discussion boards.

Can't blame anyone with half a brain really.

[brainshrub]

105. Moles on either side are a waste of time.

I don't understand why a Freeper would want to post here or a DUer post on FreeRepublic. It's a waste of time, and a bit immature.

[henslee]

107. The long term exposure to ideas here can only have postiive effects

on someone whether they think themselve susceptible to them or not.

[Lorien]

109. The sad part is that they're completely wasting their time on earth

(not that I would shed a tear for a Freeper). I guess that's better than having their boots on the ground actually working for their party instead of jacking off to their own inane commentary.

I suspect that there are a fair number still around. I've got 40+ suspected Freepers on my "ignore" list. I always chuckle when I see a long, tedious debate on a thread where every other post (apparently inflammatory ones) is made by "Ignored".

[Ksec]

110. I dont worry about a few bad DUers

They always show themselves in the long run. Give em enough rope..

Stay on offense. Let them play defense. Acting is better than reacting.

[Catherine Vincent]

114. A mole was here for four years?

Who was it?

edit: Nevermind, I went back and saw Burch's link. I knew that one was and I am sure a lot of others did too. There are others.

[ScreamingMeemie]

120. He wasn't even here for 3.

:hi: Time tends to expand in the minds of self made legends. :hi:

[stepnw1f]

116. Besides... they are Fun to Play with

Damn they know they are in BIG trouble... and they are. A tiny minority that has pissed off the WORLD!!!!!

[Beacho]

127. Much Ado About Nothing

They're just fleas on a lion, everyone once in awhile you have to scratch

[Blue_Tires]

128. i never understood that as well

join a site that i don't like spend 3 years racking up posts and building up my online rep, just to 'come out' when i think it will bring the most gasps?? It's hard enough to keep up with all the interest message boards i post on now (sports, cars, games, etc--in fact, I actually cut the number of forums i was a daily poster on from about 25 to 6)...So it is impossible for me to think of burning up precious hours being a shit-stirrer somewhere else...

I'm sorry people, but life is TOO short for that shit! And I say this with all sympathy and heartfelt support to the infiltrators still around....Today was a beautiful day out--Go outside...Go for a drive in a part of the state you never seem to get to...Play with your pets...Ask your daughter what she did in P.E. today...Volunteer...Take up a hobby....Surprise your SO by doing something nice and thoughtful out of the blue....Go for a walk in the park and see what you've been missing...

the list goes on and on

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

137. I tried, VERY briefly, to post and lurk at fr... Wasn't trying to "sow

division" or get into arguments, just post the occasional informational link.

I got immediately banned with my very first post, some freeps were saying grossly inaccurate things about Kerry's Vietnam service (this was LONG before the Swiftboaters), and I simply posted a link to a very good Boston Globe article about his service, no text, and was banned.

I tried to read there a few times since, but I find the amount of hatred simply unpleasant and I choose not to go there anymore.

I agree, I can't fathom spending months and years trolling somewhere where you don't agree and don't like the people.

I understand the negative purposes that can be accomplished through disinformation and division, but I can't think that it would be greater than working for positive goals for their cause (voter reg, campaigning, and what not).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

133. Way I See It, We Win Regardless And In Spite Of Freepers. Here:

In my opinion, every single day that we go to bed progressives and wake up progressives we are better than the freepers regardless of what they do. Those that come here to infiltrate only would appear to do so because they don't really have any legitimate cause to rally behind. They don't have any real agenda to be proud of. They don't have anything of substance to say or activism to spread. They don't have any grassroots movements to spearhead. They have nothing but ignorance, hate, immaturity and lack of respect for the human race.

That's why we win. We do have a legitimate cause. We do have a real agenda. We have substance and we have much needed activism to spread. We have our proud grassroots movements. That's why we don't waste our time running contests on how long we can survive over in fr land. Why? we have more important things to do, and we are so sickened by them we'd rather not have to go there at all even in mockery.

Fighting for rights, peace, freedom and global decency is a hard battle. We don't have time for petty games. Fighting for immaturity and provocation while destroying the world ain't so tough. That's why they do have time.

[Armstead]

135. It doesn't feel great to have to wonder....

Arguing with someone you think is a Democrat and/or independent progressive, and knowing that the righties have a bunch of "moles" here, is kind of like going out on a blind date and findinging out that she is really a he.

But when I think of the energy they expend on play-acting so they can go back and giggle with their fellow freepers, it brings to mind the phrase "Get a life."

[Blue_Tires]

136. and in all honesty

i've read many of the banned poster's ravings, and he was pretty weak as disruptors go (hell, there are longtime people on now posting more inflammatory/derogatory stuff...)

All this time, he had done next to nothing to try to distinguish himself, or bring new perspectives to debate...It would have been much better if he had simply left without the 'drama' thread--no one would have even noticed him leaving!

lol...even though i've been here for awhile, if i were to post a goodbye thread, 95 percent of DU would ask 'WHO the hell are you, anyway?'

[fujiyama]

139. What a waste of time

His and ours (well those that actually argued with him).

I always found his politics pretty far to the right for a Dem, but I just assumed he was a conservative Dem. After all, we have posters (one in particular) currently that are considerably ruder and more arrogant than the recent "mole".

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

144. OMG! DU is having a discussion about "chasing"!

Please bear with me... When I used to play on-line, goal-oriented, team-based games (typically variants of "capture the flag"), there was a phenomenon labeled "chasing". This is where players would spend their time engaging opponents in one-on-one confrontations rather than focus on the game's goal or their role in the team.

For people who had a view of the goal, this was generally frowned upon as a tactic. Chasing proponents usually countered with "well, I paid for the game so I can play it how I like". IMO, the individual may get some puerile, masturbatory, dick-measuring pleasure out of "beating" their opponent, but in the meantime the enemy has captured your flag and your team has lost.

And Clinton/Lieberman say there is nothing valuable to be learned from video games. :P

/Roswell. ROSWELL!

ON EDIT: By the way, the on-line gaming community was never able to resolve this dichotomy between masturbation versus the continuation of the species. So, good luck with this discussion.

[benburch]

145. It was like that with Photon, too.

Photon is live action lasertag-like combat in maze-like playing fields with goal targets.

Damn, but I'd be soaked with sweat after a couple of games.

I miss it.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

151. I'm glad you got the reference, for I wasn't being very clear...

... my point was supposed to be that:

1) There are people who participate in DU to further the goals of the Democratic Party (or party for the democratic goals) and find going to competing forums merely to stir up shit to be counter-productive. These people have a similar reaction when one of "them" does it to "us".

2) There are other people who revel in the competitive aspect of "punking" the opposition and have little interest in the long-term goals of DU.

Neither is necessarily right nor wrong and trying to enforce one over the other is pointless. It's just different motivation. I saw parallels to behaviour in team-based, on-line gaming.

While one approach is short-sighted and tied to personal gratification (your Mother said you would go blind), I acknowledge that some people have no desire to be hard-core activists. Look at me for example: I'm not an American and therefore can't vote in your elections (funky electoral registration databases notwithstanding). I'm just sitting on the sideline posting things that are hopefully interesting or supportive while taking occasional pot-shots at easy targets.

Hmmm... based on that last statement, maybe I could be Vice-President.

[Blue_Tires]

149. ttt n/t

[demgurl]

150. The bad thing about moles....

is you often have to have them checked and sometimes they need to be removed because they are cancerous.

[mmonk]

152. I have a mole on my chest.

All it is, is just ugly and benign. This is very similar to a freeper mole. In the end, benign.