What should be done about illegal immigration?

[prolesunited]

What is your position?
What policy changes do you think there should be?
How much of an issue do you think it will be in '06 and '08?

[democrat_patriot]

1. If you want to live and work here simply

fill out the forms and take care of it.

My wife did it, took little over a year.

[Appalachian_American]

5. Is it really that simple?

Why do all these people risk death by sneaking through the desert and paying smugglers to stuff them into the back of trucks with no air conditioning? I don't understand. Are they not aware of the simplicity or does it depend on where they're from? Do we take more people from certain places? Why do the Cubans and Haitians pile into rickety old boats to get here?

[Mr.Green93]

2. Do you mean Mexicans?

[prolesunited]

16. Not necessarily

But they seem to be the group that gets all the attention and public wrath.

[BlooInBloo]

54. I wasn't aware of any other group of people...

... that the US had illegal immigrants in humungous numbers. *Is* there another such group?

[Cobalt Violet]

59. Brazillians. At least here in Massachusetts.

[BlooInBloo]

65. Wow! Looky at that!

I had no idea there were 7+ million ILLEGAL Brazilians in MA - how on earth did they get there?

Thanks for the info!

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/2000ExecSumm.pdf

[Cobalt Violet]

108. What?

Do you know something about Massachusetts. How many times have you been here? Or lived here?

You don't know what your talking about.

[BlooInBloo]

111. That's why I was glad to learn....

... that there are 7+ million illegal Brailians in MA. I never have been there - I depend on people like you for auch spot-on information.

thanks!

[Cobalt Violet]

113. I don't know where you got YOUR 7 million from.

But it wasn't from me.

You must feel good talking about something you know Nothing about. Putting words in someones mouth.

Would you feel better if I went around with blinders on like you?

[BlooInBloo]

114. Sorry - I put a link.....

... to the INS executive summary in my first post?

Did the link not come through? Did I forget it?

Or did you just not look at it?

My apologies if the error was mine.

[Cobalt Violet]

115. Oh the document with "ESTIMATE" every other word?

Do you always believe every out dated document your government puts on the internet?

[BlooInBloo]

116. lol - you're welcome to provide a more accurate link....

Since clearly I don't know where to go for information regarding illegal immigrants.

I wasn't even aware one could do anything BUT estimate them - your knowledge clearly far surpasses mine. Could you provide a link to accurate information about the number of illegal immigrants in the country?

Thanks!

[Cobalt Violet]

117. Most of what I know isn't from links but from having my eyes open. But...

Please listen to this:

Boston Leaders Discouraging Brazilian Immigration
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4853751&ft=1&f=3



And read this:


http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/07/24/immigrants_flow_into_area_regions_foreign_born_spiked_in_1990_2000/

<snip>
The most prominent new arrivals are Brazilians. Census data from 2000 to 2003 indicate that the largest single group of immigrants during that time -- nearly 20 percent -- were Brazilian.

The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.

<snip>

[BlooInBloo]

118. Are those immigrants *legal*?

Given the the OP as well as my followup question concerned illegal immigrants, it is to be expected that the Brazilians you're referring to are also all illegal....

[Cobalt Violet]

120. You don't read and you didn't listen or you wouldn't have to ask that !!!

The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.

The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.

The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.


The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.
The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.
The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.
The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.
The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.
The Allston-based Brazilian Immigrant Center, a workers' rights group, estimated that roughly 230,000 Brazilians, 70 percent of whom are undocumented, live in the state, a far higher number than the Census Bureau's tally of 36,669 for 2000.

[BlooInBloo]

122. ROFL!!

You and your righteous indignation and snark have provided my friends and I with a lotta fun moments - thanks!

[Cobalt Violet]

123. You're projecting yourself on me.

And looking like a real **** doing so.

Just so you know, I don't give a rats ass about your friends.

[prolesunited]

124. So, instead of conceding the point

you elect to mock and insult him.

I bet you and your FRiends are a laugh riot.

[BlooInBloo]

154. What point is there to be conceded?

I ask for another group of illegal immigrants of a comparable size to Mexicans, who number somewhere in the 7-million-ish area, and the other guy gives me a couple hundred thousand Brazilians. More than an order of magnitude difference.

I perceive no point to be conceded.

I have no FR friends - at least that I know of - but you're welcome to continue falsely saying otherwise... (let's see how long it takes YOU to "concede the point" - lolol)

[Deja Q]

3. Offshore all the jobs.

That'll fix it real good.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. .!

[DBoon]

13. Allow Bush to continue wrecking the US economy

when the dollar plummets in value to make up for the hollowing of the true economy, Americans will be trying to illegally cross into Mexico to find well paying jobs.

[catmother]

23. you can't offshore landscaping and picking fruit.

:sarcasm:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Sure you can.

Spill oil all over it!

[catmother]

73. thanks for a nice laugh before i go to bed.

:yourock:

[arcane1]

4. good question.... I wish I had an answer...

perhaps I don't worry enough about the issue? :shrug:

:hi::hi::hi::hi:

[prolesunited]

15. There was a huge demonstration in Chicago today

against anti-immigration legislation, which includes building a wall along the Mexican border. People of Hispanic descent just surpassed African-Americans as the largest minority group in the Chicago area.

So, these two news tidbits put it in my mind today.

I think immigration will be a huge issue in upcoming elections. We need a new reason for why the lower and middle classes are losing ground.

[arcane1]

17. a new reason, or a new excuse?

:)

[prolesunited]

20. Reason, excuse

Depends on which side of the aisle you stand?

It's an excuse in my book. Divide and conquer. Screw the little people while the corporations walk off with all the loot.

:hi:

[arcane1]

21. GMTA

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

7. Give them property in Crawford and Kennebunkport.

:D

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. LOL Another good one from Swamp Rat!

:rofl:

[catmother]

8. i live in arizona. i have mixed emotions. mexicans are hard

working people. they do jobs that americans won't. don't tell me americans would if they were paid more. americans will not work out in the sun doing landscaping or picking fruit for 8 hours. i have no idea what should be done. i think a comedian joked that we should buy mexico and then it would be the united states.:shrug:

[msgadget]

11. I agree!

used to be high school kids did landscaping work but not anymore. They are hard working and they are the ones you see as busboys and such these days. Unfortunately, their presence puts further downward pressure on our wage base so it cannot be allowed to continue. If they're gonna be here let's get them on the books and give 'em some rights. They don't deserve to be looked at as 'problems' when they're encouraged to come by our winking president and my their own leaders.

[catmother]

22. i totally agree with you. here in arizona the wage base is also

low because there are no unions. it's a right to work state and employers get away with a lot of shit. i became ill with chronic fatigue syndrome shortly after i moved here. but i don't think i would have been able to keep a job here. for the kind of work that i did in new york they would have paid me less than half for a 40 hour week instead of the 35 that i worked in new york. i worked really hard in new york but i was very well compensated so i didn't mind. :eyes:

[msgadget]

66. I can't even imagine what undocumented aliens are paid

in a right to work state - damn! Geez, if they underpay citizens...damn. Everyone deserves to be paid better. This is why unions were demonized and associated with democrats, so people would vote against their best interests. I don't know how that can be turned around now, do you? (I'm glad things worked out for you - you were fortunate.)

[catmother]

72. well i still have chronic fatigue syndrome and had to change my

whole life style, but fortunately my husband has a good job -- we're okay financially (as long as they don't outsource it). it would be nice to have my health so i could volunteer and do some work for the democratic party.

but my attitude is -- things could always be worse. in many ways we are truly "blessed".

i posted a thread a few weeks ago about an employee in albertson's. i was on line and he was behind me. i thought he was going to open another register. well he was on his break and was waiting on line to pay for an apple. i made sure that he was moved to the front of the line but i was outraged that he had to pay for the apple. and i opened my big mouth about how we need unions here, etc. well my post got 381 responses before the moderators finally locked it. it was really funny. people were saying that it was the most WTF thread they had ever seen, but it was like they were addicted. they couldn't stop posting. i'm smiling thinking about it. it was really funny. :hi:

[msgadget]

78. LOL! I'm sorry I missed that thread, Catmother!

You've got a fantastic, optimistic attitude. I wish you well, m'friend. :hug:

[catmother]

80. thank you.

:pals: and the same to you.

what the hell are we doing up at this hour posting on the DU. one would think that we don't have any lives. lol

[Coexist]

27. I live in Florida and I see Americans doing those jobs all the time

most crews are mixed races. I don't buy that argument.

I know several people who started up their own landscaping or pool cleaning businesses, all legal citizens.

Sorry.

[catmother]

32. good for them. when i lived in my last house i hired a mexican

landscaping company. not sure if you can start a business if you're not legal. i also had a friend who started a pool cleaning business. he was american.

[pitohui]

28. i know plenty of american landscapers

put out of business now by combination of prison labor (community service!) and illegal immigrants

so don't tell me that americans won't do landscape work, and here it AIN'T a dry heat, they will do it just fine, but they CAN'T do it and compete with slave labor

[catmother]

31. the landscaper that i hired was american. but when it came to the

work he brought in the mexicans -- told them what to do and off he was -- probably to give another bid. same thing when i had rain gutters installed. american -- mexican workers. now these people might have been legal. i don't make a point of asking a question like that. it's up to the person who hires them. :think:

[catmother]

35. i can't comment. i don't know where you live. i've only lived in

new york and arizona and spent a lot of time in miami. i can't comment about other states that i have not been to. are there mexicans in north dakota or nebraska?:shrug:

[High Plains]

49. Yes.

They do a lot of packing house work.

[catmother]

50. i just mentioned my post to my husband. he said yes illegals

whether mexican or other are all over.

[Raydawg1234]

63. I've got a landscaping job.

I'm not an immigrant. And the pay beats minimum wage.

[catmother]

76. my husband had an uncle who owned a landscaping business

in new york. he put landscaping in places like shopping centers, etc. he was very wealthy. i'm sure the work can be very fulfilling. i just don't know how they do it here in the summer when it's 120. i also wonder about the construction workers -- walking around on roofs, etc. i know they start at dawn and quit early but still it's gotta be rough and they're americans.

[RagingInMiami]

153. And you think Americans are going to do roofing jobs in Pheonix?

When it's 120 degrees? You'll be hard-pressed to find a roofer in Phoenix that is not Mexican.

[msgadget]

9. First, uphold all the laws currently on the books, primarily those

regarding loitering, housing and hiring undocumented aliens. Take Vincente Fox to task for building his economy on money sent from the U.S. and for demanding the U.S. and Canada continue to allow undocumented aliens to live and work here. When businesses squawk let's open a real, honest debate on just how many more aliens we can allow in each year and that number will be the same for ALL who wish to immigrate, not just those who come from Mexico, Cuba and South America. Most importantly, the pro-immigrant groups insist that we, the United States, be more accomodating. I think they should be demanding more of the countries who encourage (dangerous) illegal immigration as a way to cure poverty. NO ONE will fix the problems that force people from their homelands until they're forced to keep 'em home.

[devilgrrl]

10. Start paying Americans a living wage for jobs they supposedly don't want

:shrug:

[DBoon]

12. Require all immigrant labor to be hired under union contracts

and through a union hiring hall, subject to collective bargaining agreements.

Anyone hired under such an arrangement is declared to be working legally. No limit on the number hired as long as the above conditions are met.

Pay and treate immigrant workers better, and they will benefit. It also removes any downward pressure on wages that may be caused by illegal immigrants.

[mdmc]

41. unions have membership. membership requires legal status

good idea:kick:

[DBoon]

57. So the moment they pay their dues

they are legal, right?

[mdmc]

109. legal in the sense that they won't end up in gitmo

I would rather that they were legal prior to hire. That the process of hiring would result in legal status. So, yes, you are right. And as long as the unions are 'hiring' more members, we will have open immigration. If an employment freeze occurs, then an immigration freeze would occur. Instead of walmart checking immigration status, the union would do it.

[demgurl]

18. I am not smart but here is my take on the matter.

I believe there should be an amnesty period where all illegals who report in would be made citizens. This would also help us track what companies are likely to use any more illegals crossing the border.

We should also make it easy for any new people coming into the country to get a temporary green card. After so long they can apply to be a citizen.

If the illegals end up being legal then they can now report any bad working conditions or anyone who may be paying less than what is supposed to be paid.

I believe this would have several effects. This would raise the amount of money spent out and make our economy a little stronger. It would protect those who have no protections. Hopefully it would make our country a stronger and better place to live.

For me, it is racist to stand by and watch someone get paid less or work in dangerous conditions just because they are not a "true American". I expect no less for others than what I want for everyone residing in this country. When prisoners are kept at Abu or Guantanamo, without charges, I express my disbelief and (at least try to) demand that they be treated as everyone would here. If we, as Americans, get so much money for work then so should someone who crossed the border. I just can not see a difference just because someone has a different skin color or is from a different place. We are all human and that should come first and foremost.

Another take on this matter - if you will listen to my rambling a wee bit longer, is why the Mexicans are crossing our borders. They have a poor economy. We have two countries that are our immediate neighbors - Mexico and Canada. While I am not for outsourcing, I think it would be wonderful if we could somehow help Mexico set up some businesses that would help their economy grow and help their people. Please understand that this is not a way to get rid of illegals in this country. I believe if they want to be here then they should be.

What we really need to do with any country we want to help is see what their needs are. It could be food, money, or clothing. Whatever the need is, wouldn't it just be nice to make our world a better place to live? We do not even need to send our businesses down to Mexico. Perhaps we could send some of the top business men in our country and get them to come up with business ideas. Then we could send money to help get these ideas off the ground. When a regular everyday person does better then we all do better.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

[Coexist]

29. so then, what is the incentive to try to obtain citizenship legally?

We did try your suggestion, it was called NAFTA. It did not work.

[demgurl]

33. As I stated, I do not consider myself to be the tops in being smart.

I do, however, have my own opinions on this. The incentive to becoming legal would be that they would get paid more and be protected against harmful working conditions. They would be able to afford a lot more money for their families whether their family resides here or back in Mexico.

The amnesty would give us clues as to where illegals did work and it would help us keep an eye on the businesses where the illegals worked before.

I think having people work, in our country, and under less than desirable conditions is very racist. I am amazed the Mexican government is not speaking up about it and I am amazed more people in the US are not demanding more for these people. So we would protest sweat shops but it is OK for people to be treated as less than a real person because they are from Mexico?

Let me ask you something. Would it be OK for any member of your family to be paid less than minimum wage or work in conditions that may be a hazard to them? Conditions that may even cause fatalities? If it is not OK for a family member then it should not be OK for anyone else.

[catmother]

36. you make some very good points demgurl.

[demgurl]

37. Thank you, catmother.

I may not be as smart as others but I do try to make up what I lack in intelligence with what I hope is common sense.

[prolesunited]

38. You shouldn't put yourself down like that

Always feel free to speak your mind. You're smarter than you give yourself credit for, and there's lots of much stupider people here judging by their posts. ;-)

[demgurl]

46. Thank you, prolesunited.

I usually do not put myself down - I think it has more to do with my personal situation with a family member right now. It helps a lot that I feel so stupid for trusting someone who might cost my immediate family a LOT of money. Kind of leads you into a slight depression.

But back on topic, I do feel that a lot of subjects we seem to speak on when we have no real authority and that leaves us with only our opinion. You know that opinions are a lot like assholes.

I do not claim to know a lot about illegal immigration but I do know a lot about empathy. When I speak I just try to do so from my heart. Most of my answers are based on how I would want to be treated.

Thank you for being nice.

[catmother]

42. hey give yourself a little credit. you seem pretty smart to me. i

know there are some really really intelligent people on this board and it can be intimidating. i'm pretty new to this myself, but i'm learning.:bounce:

i've been flamed a few times too. first time i got upset. now i just say "flame me if you want". lol:toast:

[demgurl]

47. You are very sweet, catmother.

Right now my opinions are more voiced about how I am feeling about myself. (as you can read in my above post)

If you have read my other posts then you know that I am always sure where I stand and I stand strong on my opinions. Sometimes personal stuff just tends to get in the way.

The illegal question is one that really inflames me most of the time. I can not tell you how many rants my poor husband has had to listen to. From my point of view this is a very racist issue and it makes me sick more people are not speaking up.

IF this were blacks being paid less than they would all be speaking up and raising hell. If it were women being put in such a position, they would demand equality. If it were white men then the national guard would be called in and those in charge would be hung in the gallows.

I have heard stories of illegals living in poverty. They have houses here and they fit more people than should be in one house. They work many jobs just to send money back to their loved ones. They do what they can to get by. I suppose it is not just a racial issue but also an equal rights issue.

I know I have a pie in the sky sort of view but if even one person is hungry then we should not stop working until they are fed. If a single person goes without health care then we should not sleep until they are taken care of. If but one person is treated with inequality then it is required we stick up for them. I know I would be grateful if others did the same for me.

These, and many other issues, seem to consume what little sleep I am able to get these days.

[catmother]

79. i know what you're talking about. my husband has to listen to

my rants too. i'll probably get flamed, but i too tend to think it's racist. i was really opposed to the minuteman project.

i don't know if you know what's going on with large corporations bringing workers here from india. well this is how it goes. the people from india are really good with technology. so they bring them here, pay them much lower than their regular employees. they find apartments within walking distance of the company. four or five share an apartment and they buy one used car to get around. now to them the money they make is great compared to what they would get in their own country and the living conditions are probably better too. and the thing is -- we can't get mad at them -- obviously they're here legally and probably send money home. it's the same thing with the outsourcing. i'm against it. but i don't blame the people who take the jobs. again, especially if it's india it's a very prestigous job and the money is considered good by their standards.

now as far as our own country. i feel the way you do. no human being should go hungry, or be denied health care or have to live in substandard conditions. we are the one of the richest countries in the world and we don't take care of our own. katrina is a great example.

and i am outraged that we are asked to cut social programs to pay to rebuild after katrina when billions of dollars are going to fight a war in iraq, which we have no damn business doing. well i better stop because i'm getting into a rant. it's almost 11 pm here. i should have been in bed 45 minutes ago but i did want to respond to your post.

whatever is going on in your life, you'll get through it. i'm not a religious person but they say god doesn't give you more than you can handle. i know sometimes it doesn't seem that way but it will pass and i've had my own experience with a family member who really screwed things up.

but hang in there. feel free to send me a personal post if you want.

good night and i hope you get some sleep.

[loyalsister]

103. Thank you

You have a rare sense of justice about this matter.

[FloridaPat]

19. THere are enough laws on the books. When was the last time a

company got fined for hiring illegals? We are all stuck having to prove we're citizens because Reagan wanted to stop illegal immigration. So far it looks like only Americans and people with visas have been unconvinced.

I think that people here illegally should be sent home. At what point do we stop enforcing the laws because it's inconvenient to people? Those little warrants were inconvenient to *. The immigration laws are inconvenient to the illegals that have been here for years.

I lived in Miami for several years. 99% of the people I met and worked with are here legally. The only person I met that was here illegally was a Brit. The stories I heard were amazing. A lot of the countries in S. America - there is no way to get a better life. The gov't is corrupt and social progress is on hold. They come here to get good jobs, raise a family without fear, and get enough money to retire. One guy I met from Chile - he had a degree and came from a family that had a huge ranch - 100,000 acres. But the hereditary social laws were based on the old European ones - brother #1 got everything and he got nothing. So he came the US to get a job with a future.

As for the Cubans getting on rafts - the law since Kennedy is that if a Cuban gets to land, he or she get to stay here. And for the Haitians - I would imagine anything would be better than living as a poor person in Haiti.

[catmother]

25. when i lived in new york i knew many people who had come from

cuba. some were very wealthy and left everything behind to come here. they had to start all over again. one woman who i worked with said her husband couldn't understand why he had to take out the garbage -- in cuba that was all done for him. another woman said her father even had a servant run his bath. so i guess things were pretty bad there. i've been to miami many times and admire the cuban people who brought their culture with them. i found "little cuba" to be a very warm, friendly, interesting place.

as far as haiti we went there in 1971 so my husband could get his divorce from his first wife. i have never, ever seen such poverty. i've been to puerto rico, mexico, the bahamas, st. thomas, but nothing prepared me for what i saw in haiti. and yet the people were friendly and cheerful.

[degreesofgray]

24. Insist on living wages,

crack down on those who hire and exploit undocumented workers, insist on fair labor and safety standards, fund job training and education programs, provide amnesty to undocumented family members of those already working legally in the U.S., insist that state and federal governments develop humane, fair policies, and speak out against those who blame the poor for wanting to improve their lives, who insist on punishment, incarceration, and further misery rather than actually dealing with the root causes of the problem and treating fellow humans with dignity.

[pitohui]

26. first offense, deportation, further offenses, prison

they are committing a crime and taking food from the mouth of people who do want to work, no matter how loudly the cry that americans are bums who do not wish to work, we do wish to work, tis true, we do not wish to work as slaves living in tents and paid pennies on the dollar for our labor, but the slavery issue should have been settled forever in 1865 and the fact that some are desperate enough to be willing to be slaves does not mean that their law-breaking should be tolerated

[prolesunited]

34. Why would it make more

sense to house them in our prisons? Would that not eat up even more tax dollars? Do you feel that the privately run prison industry is not being enriched enough?

Why punish the "slaves"? Would it not be more effective to go after the "slave" owners? Make the fines and penalties stiff enough against corporations and those who "import" the illegals that it would fair outweigh any gains made from exploiting fellow human beings?

[pitohui]

140. short term yes it would cost some $$$

however either the american laborer is worth being protected or not, you assume that the american laborer is of no value and that therefore no money should be spent protecting his or her job

i don't make such an assumption, i think americans also have worth as human beings and should have first shot at jobs on their own soil and those jobs should be at fair wages

second, originally i did come out strongly for prosecution of those who hired illegal immigrants, it was then pointed out to me that such laws and prosecutions because of widespread identity theft and use of false documents mean that many employers would refuse to hire LEGAL immigrants or even native-born americans who happen to be of hispanic background

i don't think it right to turn this into a race-based thing and make employers afraid to hire anyone of hispanic heritage

right now, i do think the best angle of attack is to prosecute those we can easily prove are knowingly breaking the law, they know when they smuggle themselves over the border that they are breaking the law, they have willingly chosen to become criminal at that point and need to be dealt with on that basis

a tough issue, and i can see where i could be swayed back into supporting strong prosecutions of employers who hire illegals, IF the focus was on real violators and not just on putting every democrat out of office who ever got their kid babysat a la zoe baird (was it zoe baird?)

yes, and i'm also aware GOP sez it supports deportation of illegals but again their actions do not support their large talk, their actions send the message of illegals are just fine as long as they can hire a lawnman for slave wages

[High Plains]

51. That is basically the House Republicans' position.

If I understand it correctly, "illegal" immigrants currently are not committing a criminal offense but a civil one. (Might be more accurate to call them "administratively unsanctioned immigrants," but that ain't nearly as sexy.) The immigration bill ALREADY PASSED by the House would make it a crime, with a mandatory minimum sentence for a second offense. It also calls for 700 miles of Tortilla Curtain along the Mexican border. And it makes no provision for the 11 million undocumented workers already here or for a guest worker program.

You can read more in this Washington Post article from when it passed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121601814.html

McCain and Kennedy have a competing Senate bill that has guest worker provisions and doesn't criminalize undocumented immigrants.

The time for posturing is over. What are we going to support?

[Raydawg1234]

94. Illegal immigrants are not commiting criminal offenses?? Tell that to the

people being terrorized by the MS-13 gang, which is the first street gang to be considered an organized crime entity.

[High Plains]

127. You misunderstood my post.

I was pointing out that crossing the border without the proper documents is not now a crime, but a civil violation.

Yes, I'm sure undocumented immigrants commit crimes, like every other identifiable group in the country.

[pitohui]

142. i'd support that position if it's walk instead of talk

i find with GOP they sometimes do propose something that sounds like it makes sense, problem is they don't actually have the follow thru

i don't agree w. mccain/kennedy that we need any more damn guest workers when our own are doing w.out jobs

kennedy is a fine senator & i support most of his issues but he's dead wrong on this one

[High Plains]

152. Okay, now tell me how you're going to deport 10 million people.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Open borders everywhere.

But, they can start with an amnesty for the people already here.

[Disturbed]

44. Fines on Corps don't deter them.

They just absorb those fines. Prison time in an actual prison might get their attention. Six months first offense, a year for the second and two years for the 3rd. Increase the time for each following offense.

12 Million illegal workers are now in the USA. A few thousand are in prison here for committing crimes. The USA can't send the felons back to where they came from?

A wall is no solution.

Better Border Patrol is a temporary measure.

The US cannot afford to round up millions and send them back to where they came from just to have many come right back again.

OK, I do not have the solution. It is something that each state must work out and not depend much on the Bush Regime or the next Admin. or Congress to work out.

[Cleita]

39. Make it legal.

There shouldn't be illegal people anymore than there should be illegal babies. Giving non-residents status to seek jobs and be included in the system will force employers to obey the laws. That is where the real problem is. Stop blaming the poorest of the poor, who are really the victims here.

[sampsonblk]

60. Exactly

I GOPers screaming that these people are lawbreakers. Ok make it legal, so these people have an opportunity to come here like so many other productive people(s) in the past.

[pitohui]

144. that is crazy talk

do you understand that there are actually over 6 billion people in the world, and a good proportion of those billions are eager to leave south america, central america, mexico, india, africa, china, eastern europe and move here?

we can't allow everyone who wants to move here to come without destroying our own quality of life, the only thing that makes usa special is our wilderness and we are killing it by over-population already!

you cannot open your borders to everyone who wants to enter any more than you would open your house to everyone who lost their home to katrina, like me, you pick one, and you let that one person stay in your house, or you let one family, but you don't let 400,000 people stay in your house

er, wait a minute

with your position, you DID allow a displaced person to live in your home, didn't you?

or is this a case of everyone else must sacrifice except for you? everyone else's jobs is disposable to the lowest bidder except for yours? everyone else's parks may be filled with tents filled w. homeless and illegal immigrants, except for the parks where you wish to stroll?

[Raydawg1234]

92. Let Mexicans find jobs for other Mexicans. We have our own poor to help.

Once there is no more poverty among American CITIZENS then you can talk.

[Cleita]

138. Well many impoverished Americans won't go out into the

fields and pick strawberries (very backbreaking work incidentally) or clean toilets for the money Mexicans will. If we made the people who do it legal maybe they wouldn't either. It would force the farmers and others to raise the wage and then everyone would compete on an even playing field. I'd just bet you that the Americans would get the better paying jobs first, and the unemployed Mexicans would go home. See there is an easy solution after all.

[pitohui]

145. that doesn't even make sense

did you ever hear of the law of supply and demand?

you want an infinite supply of workers, and keep in mind we live in a world of 6-billion plus people, pouring legally over our open borders, and you think that farmers would then suddenly pay people decent wages to pick fruit because it was legal for billions of them to come pouring over the border begging for jobs

supply and demand, my friend, supply and demand

your suggestion is a recipe for slavery, the worker will get nothing, as there will always be someone else next in line to undercut his bid

christ, this is fairly basic economics 101 i should have thought?

[Cleita]

146. That's because economics 101 still operates from a freeper

ideology. Think about it if all workers have the same rights, then they can join unions, claim worker's comp., sue their employer and demand the same wages as their fellow workers. It evens the field. Under those circumstances most likely the employer will choose the guy who speaks better English. Think about it.

[pitohui]

148. 2 billion workers chasing 100 million jobs

i'm sorry but the jobs go to the person who works for less

the guy who speaks the better english, my ass, i guess that explains all the jobs going to india, where english is kinda, sorta the official language

people need to get a better handle on basic math or just get a quart of water and try to pour it into a coffee cup

i sincerely hope and pray that all who want open borders see their jobs taken first, unfortunately, they are usually the class that benefits most from making slaves of the rest of us -- this of course why they support cheap labor policies in the first place!

[Cleita]

150. I see where you are coming from and it's really

not a place for me to try to reason with you. The fact is that our economy would collapse without these aliens doing the work they do. The employers want them to be without rights. They are more exploitable that way. There won't be billions coming over. That's hyperbole.

If you want to get our jobs back from India, you'd better get your legislators to demand that companies who want to do business with the USA, hire Americans for their USA operations and that the products they sell be at least 60% produced in the USA.

If they keep getting away with what they are getting away with, even the jobs Mexicans do here will be outsourced to Mexico instead. There won't be an illegal immigration problem there because there won't be any jobs to come here for.

[mdmc]

40. if it takes one year to get in (as the first post states), then all is

good.

It should only take a year to get in. Open. All can enter. Universal humanity. I am not sure how hot this issue is.

[Minnesota Libra]

43. Too bad we don't secure our borders with.......

.....highly electrified fences and an electrified no man's zone.

I know, I know, it's not popular so :nuke: away.

[prolesunited]

45. How much would that cost?

What makes that worth the price to you?

[Minnesota Libra]

48. It's only worth the price if........

.....we want truly secure borders. As for cost, the electricity could be generated by solar panels or wind either one.

[High Plains]

52. I don't want to live in a country so chickenshit it fences itself in for

fear of its neighbors. Fortress America? Fuck that.

[Minnesota Libra]

55. I don't want to live in a country that doesn't know how to keep it's......

....borders secure either. Quoting you "Fuck that".

edited for title clarity

[High Plains]

56. We could argue about this further, or we could ponder what is

actually on the table and what has ALREADY BEEN PASSED by the House.

See my post #51 upthread.

[Minnesota Libra]

58. Your point being what? We should leave our borders......

....wide open and let anyone and everyone in?? That's what is going on now. No need for change then. Issue settled.

Or, better idea, we could secure the borders, and let people in LEGALLY ONLY and truly keep track of "guest workers" and then send them back when their time is up. I know this is not a popular idea at DU but then I don't always fall in line with everyone else either. That doesn't mean I'm necessarily wrong. Instead, it means I've seen and experienced a whole range of illegal immigrant issues first hand and I know there has got to be a better way.

[High Plains]

128. I assume you live in Minnesota.

Go up to the Canadian border. Now tell me how you are really going to control it. You gonna run your fence across Lake of the Woods? How about the border further West? A thousand miles of prairie, some of the most uninhabited areas in North America. Then after that, there's the Rocky Mountains. I happen to live close to the border in the mountains. There is no way you are going to "secure" that border short of stationing a cop every six feet. There are similar issues with the US-Mexican border. And then, of course, there are the coasts. Your vision of "secure" borders is a pipe dream.

As for what should be done, I referred you earlier to the competing proposals in Congress. The House has already passed a very ugly bill.

Personally, I'm not too fond of this whole notion of borders. I prefer free movement. But nobody listens to me, so I suppose I'll support the Kennedy-McCain bill with its guest worker proposals.

[Solon]

102. OK, so how many billions of dollars will be used to maintain it?

You said electrified, that means two things, one is that a good electrical storm will knock it out, and two, that one short will knock out a 2 or three thousand mile wide electrical fence, that could take days to find the damned short, much less even keeping the thing running. Sorry, solar panels or windmills isn't going to cut it for that, your talking about exposed wires, with resistance, that means at least a nuclear, probably two, power plants just to power this bigassed MOTHERFUCKER, this thing, just to generate enough shock to SCARE someone would actually have to generate more electricity per hour than New York uses in a year. ITS NOT PRACTICAL, HENCE MY OBJECTION, not to mention that this billion dollar albatross can be defeated with a wire cutter and rubber gloves, why not work on solutions instead of FEEL GOOD BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!

[The Straight Story]

53. We should make illegal immigration illegal. Oh wait..... (nt)

[bemildred]

61. We need a really high minimum wage so there will be no incentive

to hire cheap illegal immigrants.
:-)

[Raydawg1234]

62. Take the army out of Iraq and put it on the Mexican border!!!!!

That will keep things under control for the short term. Then build a giant concrete wall with
razor-wire on the top.

[prolesunited]

64. And shoot to KILL!

Why are we turning on our fellow humans in need?

Why can't we focus on the corporations who make millions off of this undocumented workforce?

For example, hundreds of Mexicans are living in tent cities with no facilities and doing clean up work in New Orleans. The companies who have been awarded federal contracts are paying them minimum wage, if they pay them at all, and not providing them with proper safety gear to protect them from exposure to environmental hazards. So, whose the real criminal in this example?

If these people were not hired when they got here, wouldn't most of them stop coming?

[Telly Savalas]

67. But it's more fun to blame the victim!

What? Did you think you were at a progressive website?

[Raydawg1234]

70. While most of my opinions are liberal, I do have many DIFFERENT opinions

Are you calling the Illegal imigrants the victims????????? How about CRIMINALS. The victim is the person that was shot by the MS-13 gang member. It is not the responsibility of the US to provide every Mexican with a job. We have our own economic problems. I see you are from Canada, why don't you mind your own business. You can talk when millions of Americans start invading your country!!

[High Plains]

129. Oh, Jesus Christ! Enough with this MS-13 fear-mongering.

There are an estimated 10-12 million undocumented immigrants in this country. A few thousand might be MS-13 "members," whatever that means. And I'm sure many MS-13 members are US citizens.

Are you intentionally conflating these issues?

"Why don't you mind your own business?" What a stupid thing to say on a discussion board.

[Raydawg1234]

68. It is hard to keep track of all the employers. Which is why we must

stop them from getting here in the first place. I realize that this is controversial here on DU. But this is an issue of American sovereignty. When you have millions crossing your border each year, that is not "immigration," that is INVASION. We need to enforce our laws, and if the border patrol is not up to the task, we should let the Army try. It is not our job to take care of all people in need. We have lots of people in this country that are in need and are not being taken care of. And what about the Illegal alien street gangs, like MS-13, which now constitute a national security threat. Our open borders provide "real" terrorists a way to get into the United States. This is why I think we should take the army out of Iraq and put it on the Mexican border. We have the right to defend our border as a sovereign nation.

Lets help our fellow AMERICANS in need first!!!

[prolesunited]

71. An invasion?!?!

So it's easier to track millions than select employers in industries known to use illegals?

I'm all for deporting ANY illegal immigrant who commits a crime, but most just come here to work, don't they, not prey on citizens.

You want to put Americans first, wouldn't developing a SANE policy make more sense than building a fortress around the country. After we build the wall there, don't we need one in Canada, too, to protect us from the terrorists? What about the coasts?

If you go after the employers aggressively, make it unprofitable for them to continue to hire illegals, then we can use all that money from the fines to help "real" Americans, you know, whose parents never immigrated from somewhere.

[Raydawg1234]

74. Your idea looks good on paper, but it is not practical.

That's not going to stop them from comming. The problem is too big to go after all the employers, we don't have the resources. Lets cut the bullshit. If we really want to solve the problem, we know how to do so.

Millions crossing your border each year????? I call that an Invasion. 3 million is waaaay more than D-day.

[msgadget]

82. 'xactly. They're invited here, welcomed here, depended upon

by big and small businesses, their governments and ours. Why aren't labor laws enforced and why, in light of the increased number of illegal workers and underemployed American workers, haven't trade agreements been revisited? Aren't they supposed to lift countries out of poverty? And, why aren't companies, especially large ones, penalized for using undocumented workers? Is there no provision for them to lose their contracts and forfeit all awards for doing so?

[prolesunited]

84. And that's why we'll never have a sane policy

Demonize the little people and let business go free.

[msgadget]

88. Oh man, it sucks

Accountability and responsibility only apply to little 'persons' even though corporations have personhood...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Shall we give the guys guarding it traditional sheets to wear?

How about some nice lighting with fiery crosses better to see the refugees to shoot at? And, erect big neon signs saying "White's Only".

[Cleita]

77. Yes, we must.

:rofl:

[Raydawg1234]

81. since when was this a race thing??????????

If it was Canada I'd be saying the same thing. It's about coming here LEGALLY. I don't care what race you are, you can't come here illegally. You know, I can't stand people who pull out the race card like a get out of jail free card. If you come to our country illegally, you are a criminal. My ancestors immigrated to this country Legally, why should it be any different for these people???

If you can't come up with a counter-argument, don't come at me with this racist crap. It is such a cop out. I am no racist.

Are you saying that anyone who enforces our immigration laws is racist?? Are you for open borders?? really I'd like to know.

[solinvictus]

85. Non sequitur..

if you oppose illegal immigration on this forum, you'll inevitably be called a racist.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

86. But, it isn't Canada, is it?

It's Mexicans, Guatamalans, Hondurans, Haitians, we're talking about. And, the people you're talking about are dark-skinned.

I am for open borders. That would certainly remove the "racist crap", now wouldn't it? Freedom to travel is a human right.

Walls? Razor wire? How about some watchtowers with Confederate flags.


I'll stand by my statements.

[msgadget]

89. I admire your strong stand

but don't you want immigrants to live as free people with full rights, including the right to fair wages and labor protection? Allowing just anyone to come and go with no accountability encourages disrespect of our country and provides an open channel for - yes, I'm going to say it - people who do not wish us well. My dad was a brown (legal, by way of the military) immigrant who came here because there was no opportunity in his country. He'd have prefered to remain in his native land surrounded by family and is bitter that his government has yet to make living standards such that migrating elsewhere is unnecessary. He holds no bitterness toward America for wanting to control the population but despairs that the root cause of the problem - poverty - will never, ever be properly addressed.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. Love it or leave it? How original of you.

I do support a world without borders. I don't give a flying fuck about American sovereignty And, a world without borders would be a fine thing.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

[Raydawg1234]

126. You know, a world without borders is the passion of fools

because it is never going to fucking happen. Hell will freeze over in America when public opinion favors open borders.

[solinvictus]

96. Freedom to travel..

At least you're honest about your desire to turn America into a third world nation, I'll give you that.

[Raydawg1234]

97. You know, his position is not much different than Bush's.

Bush advocates a guest worker program which is very similar to open borders. I guess he and Bush have found some common ground. You know how those Republicans think that Totalitarian countries with low wages and no protection for their workers are good for business (thats why everything is made in China).

My advice to him is to go to Mexico, run for office, and then try to improve conditions there.

[solinvictus]

83. Mass deportations..

period. End of story. We'd see wages shoot up in blue collar jobs and the service industries because there wouldn't be this bottomless expendable well of desparate laborers.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. In boxcars, perhaps?

[Raydawg1234]

91. there you go with the racism crap again. It is a PATHETIC EXCUSE

If somone tries to enforce the law you call them racist, WAH WAH WAH. Stop fucking whining. If they came here LEGALLY they would have nothing to worry about!!!!!

[solinvictus]

93. Yep..

and for the record, yes, boxcars would suffice.

[fujiyama]

98. Would these people get back taxes they've spent?

You do know that they contribute $ in sales tax.

So what do you want the government to do? Go around busting down homes of all suspected illegals, drag them out and put them on a boxcar? Why not just shoot them? Would that make you feel better?

You have real pent up rage against immigrants. And don't give me the "I'm just against illegals" line. I've read your posts - and endorsing a policy of stricter border surveillance and security is one thing, but what you are endorsing is simply insane.

[Raydawg1234]

99. you really got yourself here, HOW ABOUT INCOME TAX!!!!!

LOL

[fujiyama]

101. Most illegal immigrants

are getting screwed out of SS as well. Since most are getting fake IDs as well as fake papers. Employers are withholding payroll taxes and in most cases these people aren't getting anything in return. I forgot to include that in my other post. ( http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128/printer).

Though, obviously in many cases, they are simply being paid under the table. Obviously they aren't paying income taxes there.

Look, if you were to post without screaming every other word and resorting to hyperbole and hystrionics, you might find more people willing to discuss the issue in a more rational manner.

I'm not advocating open borders like some. Such a policy isn't sustainable in any way. Resources are finite and those residing here legally are entitled to them before others. We also need to keep track of who enters for national security purposes. That's fair. Every government should take care of its own citizens first, then other legal residents, then only after that - the rest of the world.

But we can't simply say, "get out" to anyone just because they sneaked in. That's not policy. That's knee jerk nativism and xenophobia.

[High Plains]

133. Good to see you openly embrace your Nazi leanings.

[Raydawg1234]

135. It's not like the Jews broke into Germany and that's why they were

persecuted.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. Fine. So, let them come here legally. Start with an amnesty.

Then they're "legal". Then open the border, the ones that come will be "legal".

[RB TexLa]

134. Yeah, cause we hear so much about Canadians stealing "our " jobs

or people saying NAFTA was going to create a giant sucking sound from the north.

Haven't heard much about Germany or Britain taking "our" jobs. India seems to be the preferred target for that.

What a F***ing phrase " OUR jobs " give me a break.


History tells you all you need to know

"Irish Need Not Apply "
"Colored Only "
"Border Security "

The groups change, the accents and or language changes, what it is is the same.

Many of my people did not enter this country with the proper papers, and met the same thing, some were put in a military uniform and shipped out to kill people, some were simply locked in a building and worked for 80 to 100 hours a week, but they wanted to be here bad enough and wanted the dream offered by this country that they risked their lives to get here, risked them once again when they got here and in the end helped build this place into what it is. I guess my family's Irish accent is accepted now? But I could be wrong, who knows what immigrant group will be targeted next by the NeoWhigs.

And now people tell me that I am supposed to support picking people up off the street and sending them "home" , I'm told that I should want them to speak English because, I guess they are supposed to speak it just because.

Sorry, but there but for the Grace of God go I

[Raydawg1234]

136. Ironic, I have Irish ancestors, and they immigrated here LEGALLY!!!

[RB TexLa]

137. well pin a rose on your nose n/t

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

156. Well, hooray for your Irish ancestors. BTW when did they arrive?

As far as Irish immigration goes, it's been near impossible for anyone from Ireland to enter this country legally as an immigrant since 1965.

When my husband arrived here in Chicago from Northern Ireland in 1978, he was an "illegal" until after we got married in 1980 and he got a green card. The waiting list for legal immigration to the US in 1978 was 24 years...

The so-called "Celtic Tiger" didn't start to improve things in Ireland until the mid-90's. There are hundreds of thousands of "illegal" Irish in the USA today. I suppose you want them deported as well...Even though they work, contribute to the community and have wives and children and are generally ideal "citizens".

My husband and I proudly marched in the massive protest yesterday in Chicago. I hope and pray McCain/Kennedy passes in the Senate. It's time.

[Raydawg1234]

157. uh....at least 150 years ago

[Terran1212]

139. Racism is a large motivator for it

Why are we not talking about a huge fence along the much larger and more undefended Canadian border?

People care a lot less about the humanity of the Mexican immigrants from Racism, pure and simple.

As for enforcement of the law, you CHOOSE how to enforce the law. If most American don't want Draconiasm to be applied to this case, then so be it!

[Raydawg1234]

141. well for starters, there aren't 3 million Canadians crossing the border

each year!!!! Duh.

[pitohui]

147. yeah, we actually want the option to go the other way

in the case of canada, it would be up to them to build the border, since it's usa citizens sneaking up there trying to get on their health plan and buy their medicines

:-)

[High Plains]

130. I'd rather live in a country with undocumented workers than the

kind of fascist police state required to round up and deport 10 million people.

Tell me, how will you figure out who is to be deported? Are you going to check the papers of everyone with a Hispanic last name?

Maybe you and Raydawg can form your own Minuteman chapter.

[Raydawg1234]

131. good idea

[Raydawg1234]

95. If Bush keeps at it, we will all be cutting Mexican grass!!!!!

[fujiyama]

100. I've been amused

by some of the anti immigration folks here, not because they advocate strengthening border security, but because they view this as a simple problem and many resort to hyperboles and hystrionics.

"Just send 'em back" isn't a solution and if you advocate that, you should not be taken seriously because you have little understanding of how complex the problem is. This is not the party of Tom Tancredo. If you support him, there is another forum.

We have millions of people here undocumented and yes, border security is a problem. A country can't function with completely open borders because resources are stretched and preference must go to those that stay here legally.

However, It would not be practical or morally right to deport anyone that doesn't have "proper papers". Many at this point do have children, who were born here - and are American citizens. You technically can't say the kid broke the law just for being born here. If you want children of illegal immigrants to not be citizens, then you amend the constitution.

The only practical thing is to set up SOME sort of amnesty program. If a person has stayed in the US for a certain number of years with a clean record, then a case can be made to let that person apply for permanent legal residency. Preference should be given to those with children though for obvious reasons.

We should deport some illegal immigrants undoubtably - anyone involved in criminal activity that has illegally entered should obviously be immediately deported.

Also, I would strengthen border security, with a much larger number of agents stationed at the border - we don't need the military at the border, because we are not at war. But we need better law enforcement for sure.

Eventually enact a policy that will no longer allow illegal immigrants to apply for permanent residency - and will entitle them for deportation.

Finally, crack down on all employers. This is the most important thing. If illegal immigrants can't find work here, they will not come. More labor oversight is vital.

Increase legal immigration quotas to realistic levels - allow those workers with special skills in demand to immigrate, regardless of the nation.

[Coexist]

110. thank you for this sane post

I am not a racist because I believe in doing things legally.

I will argue for rights for all American citizens, immigrants or born-heres.

If someone is entering this country illegally, they should not expect the same treatment as the person who took the time and trouble to do it right.

Why punish those who follow the letter of the law? That is silly.

Businesses that employ illegal immigrants should be sever ly punished (with large fines).

Enforce the laws we have, control the borders, punish the offenders in a just manner (immigrants, businesses and those who traffic human cargo across the border).

Sorry - it is how I feel. My grandparents came here legally. Five of my neighbors came here legally. They had to wait, but the did it the right way and are prospering right now. No one can pay them sub-minimum wage or take advantage of their situation, they pay income tax and sales tax.

[fujiyama]

119. My parents came here legally

and I'm naturalized myself, so I definetely favor legal immigration. I also understand what a long and tedious process it is.

Likewise I'm not fond of illegal immigration and I certainly believe people should play by the rules, but I'm not fond of people screaming "kick them out", because I believe the problem is much more complex - especially those with kids that are growing up here.

I do favor border security. It's irresponsible and a threat to national security not to know who is entering the country.

[prolesunited]

125. At last

a rational and sane approach. Thank you for taking time to articulate it.

[B Calm]

106. If Republicans were truly concerned about illegal immigration they

would make corporate America pay huge fines for every illegal they hire. If employers faced a million dollar fine for hiring an illegal, there wouldn't be a illegal immigration problem!

[moondust]

107. Whatever it is

it should have been done long ago before the problem got completely out of control. I suspect cheap labor Republicans are largely responsible for preventing that from ever happening.

112. forget about governments - make it people to people

what about no more boundaries?

Anyway peoples have always migrated, and we are all immigrants (aside from Native Americans, though some people think they migrated from Asia?)

[fujiyama]

121. Ideally that would be the case

but with the construct of nation states and the inequality that exists, a borderless world is unrealistic.

In fact, this is partly why I am not against immigrants sending $ back to families in their expatriated country. Strengthening other economies (though not at the expense of our own) does benefit us in the long run.

The key is strengthening Latin American countries economically and politically as well (supporting and encouraging democracy), rather than exploiting, strongarming, or threatening them. NAFTA has proven disastereous for workers on both sides and has helped only the wealthy corporations.

[ulysses]

132. help genuinely improve economies south of the border. n/t

[left of center]

143. Grant amnesty to those already here, then close the borders.

Everyone thereafter should have to enter legally, and there should be quotas that should not be exceded with exception given to immigrants who face death or reprisal should they remain in their own country.

[pitohui]

149. no more amnesty, didn't work when reagan did it

won't work now, it is just more cheap labor policies to keep people broke and on their ass

illegals can read the freakn paper you know, at least the spanish language paper, they good and well that the GOP can be relied upon to semi-regularly offer these amnesties, why, so they keep on coming

it has to end here

there just aren't enough jobs to go around any more to tolerate this foolishness

if you support open borders, look at your conscience and ask why you are willing to allow your neighbor to forced to compete with those who work for slave wages, ask yourself why you are so uncaring of the american worker, is it just to save a few pennies at the end of the day when you're hiring your lawn cut? or is it that you have never even met a white working man or a black working man and so you're happy to swallow the lies that they don't care to work? some of these posters really seem wayyyyy too sheltered from reality

[napi21]

151. I think the employers should be jailed!

Everywhere I've ever worked, we were very careful to check ID's, and if it didn't look right, we'd make phone calls to be sure, but many many employers don't do that! In fact, those who are most guilty of exploiting illegals at cheap pay and nothing else actually LOOK for illegals. I've known quite a few, and there 's only ONE thing that scares them enough to make them stop. JAIL TIME FOR THEM! If the punishment for hiring ONE illegal was 6 months jail time for first offense, and doubled for every additional illegal employee after the first, I guarantee you, illegal immigration would stop, because there would be no jobs to seek.

[RB TexLa]

155. The NeoWhigs and UberNationalism

The NeoWhigs sure do have a vibrant left wing, I'll skip the browser trip to stormfront or freeperville I already know their right wing is strong.

I had a post on this once but reading through this thing, it really is amazing what people can say once you dehumanize people. Just read through and picture the word "illegal" being changed to "human being."