Are people that like sex between 3 yr olds redeemable?

[The Straight Story]

I posted this earlier:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x637766

I cannot fathom how people can see 3 yr old kids as sexual. Are we, as a society, better off without such people in our society?

As a father of a 4 yr old I would personally shoot someone who tried anything sexual with her, and would not feel one iota of guilt about it. I don't want people like this around. Does this mean I am not progressive - or do progressives believe that such people can be 'fixed' and returned to society as good stewards?

To me, there are some SICK people in this world, and as a whole we would be better off if they never entered back into society. And I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

[babylonsister]

1. No, no redemption there, at all. nt

[The Straight Story]

3. Thanks, at least I don't feel like I am nuts.

People like this make me...well, insane with anger.

[celestia671]

9. You're not nuts...

I have a four year old as well, and if anyone ever did anything like that to her, I would kill them.

[laheina]

10. People who hurt children are the lowest forms of life,

and should be treated accordingly. And nothing has shown that serial sexual predators of this nature are the list bit redeemable. You're not nuts; I feel the same way.

[wtmusic]

2. Of course we'd be better off without such people in our society

does that give us the right to kill them, so that we can feel safer? No.

Would the world be safer without Saddam? Does that give us the right to invade Iraq?

[The Straight Story]

4. Invading a country is not the same

as killing someone we deem as a threat locally.

We did not need to invade iraq to get rid of saddam, and we don't need to kill everyone in US to get rid of such sick freaks as this.

I am not sure I see any value in keeping people like this around. Do you?

[wtmusic]

8. It's EXACTLY the same principle

Taking someone out so you can sleep better at night, not because it's the just and right thing to do.

Go for it. Have at 'em, tough guy. Keep us abreast. Developing situation. :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

14. Taking out a whole country is not the same

as taking out some idiot that thinks sex with 3 yr olds is cool.

[heidler1]

28. There is one pretty good reason not to kill such a pervert and that

would be what this might do to your daughter. Explaining it might not be easy and at some point later in her life she might feel further troubled by the killing. Prevention is the way to go.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Your argument makes no sense

A pedophile cannot be trusted and there is no cure for pedophilia. They *like * doing it. So they do not see a reason to stop hurting kids.And so they don't.

Some people by their own actions and unwillingness to stop harming others can make themselves so untrustable and so much of a toxin they can only be stopped by their own death.It's social self preservation.
I don't care if a pedophile is killed,because that way they are made harmless forever and no one has to watch them constantly to make sure they stay away from kids.

As for Saddam The Iraqi People were the ones to tear him down,not us.

If victims of pedophilia were not children if they were adult sized they could tear apart the pedophiles that harm them when the trauma happens more easily.But our brains get in our way when we recover from trauma.This is a boon to perpetrators.Why do we make excuses for people that like to rape kids? Some desires some people can "entertain" ARE that toxic,wrong and evil.And if they are acted out,than that person cannot be trusted with thier own body.

[qazplm]

41. they can be stopped by locking them away forever

Obviously, we have no cure yet for pedophillia, we may one day but not yet. I dont have a problem with locking them away but killing is a bit far. its a sickness, a disease, a mental illness.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

55. Pedophiles need an island of their own... on which very very old

pedophiles might see them as "cute and cuddly".....

[Gormy Cuss]

66. I've been working on the island notion too.

Child molesters and pedophiles deserve a place to call their own, far from children. Say, Devil's Island. Let them feel isolated and fearful for the rest of their days. Maybe they'll get a clue about why the rest of us see their proclivities as an abomination.

[MercutioATC]

40. I don't pretend to be logical about this. Kill them.

Hurt a kid, die.

To me, it's that simple. No, it's not logically defensible and only marginally morally defensible but, frankly, I don't care.

[Mythsaje]

5. They're NOT "redeemable," as such...

The recidivism rate for these sorts of people is astronomical. The best thing to do is put them where they can't endanger the safety of children, be it physically, psychologically, or emotionally.

[blurp]

21. The recidivism rate is actually lower.

The recidivism rate for these sorts of people is astronomical.

It's actually less than for other offenses.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#recidivism

Recidivism

Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers.
Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for a new homicide.
Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.
Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.

Child victimizers

Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.
Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.
Offenders who had victimized a child were on average 5 years older than the violent offenders who had committed their crimes against adults. Nearly 25% of child victimizers were age 40 or older, but about 10% of the inmates with adult victims fell in that age range.


That said, I think it all comes down to whether or not someone can become an adult human or stay an animal. Law, religion, and morality are all there to keep the animal in check. Punishment is( should?) be there to encourage human behavior. Given the somewhat lower recidivism rate of sex offenders, it seems punishment brings out the human in them better than it does other types of criminals.

Of course, if they can't become a human, then they're still an animal and there is nothing wrong with killing them.

[gizmo1979]

89. Sex offenders is too broad of scope

you need to zero in on pedophiles to see the true recidivism of the people we are looking at.Even 1 case of recidivism is too many in the case of a child.I have no answers obviously we can't execute all pedophiles and once identified they become a hot potato.

[EST]

6. As a general rule,

Those of such proclivities are not considered redeemable. What can be done to reduce the prison population but take dangerous folk out of circulation?

[BlooInBloo]

7. Do you want the STATE to have the power?

If so, would you do me the favor of telling me how high of an error rate - that is, innocent people killed by the state - you're prepared to accept so that vengeance can be yours?

thanks!

[The Straight Story]

12. Did I mention vengance?

I am talking in general here - and I agree with you really, the less power we give the government the better....

[BlooInBloo]

19. Vengeance is the only thing not addressed....

by guaranteed-no-parole, life in prison, and the only reason I'm able to see to desire death.

If there's some *other* reason to recommend death over guaranteed-no-parole life in prison, I'd be pleased to hear it...

[undergroundpanther]

25. I don't like the state killing people

When the state is this corrupt. I wish there was a way for victims hurt by pedophiles who feel unsafe and want the bastards dead could take them out tho..
But it won't happen.
You cannot have absolutes and foolproof justice when justice is so easily subverted.There HAS to be a solution. Pedophilia is a bad social problem.

Maybe castrate them? Maybe look the other way when a victims parents kill a molestor?

Have you got a solution? What do you do with people you cannot trust to exist?

[BlooInBloo]

26. I have yet to hear anything that isn't addressed by....

... no-parole life in prison... Well, except for vengeance, of course...

The problem of pedophilia, imo, cannot in any significant manner be addressed AFTER the fact. Significant changes would need to take place in this country upstream instead. In my view, all of this "downstream" talk is close to 100% irrelevant to "solving" the problem of pedophilia.

[wake.up.america]

31. Remove them from having ANY possible contact with children....

Killing them? NO!!!!

[undergroundpanther]

11. They cannot be trusted with their own bodies

They choose to harm because they"enjoy* it.They are addicted to their fantasies and fetish .Pedophiles are not redeemable.Therapists can't cure them,prison does nothing,They can't be trusted and if you do not want to give this type of untrustable asshole free medical care,free room board which MOST Americans don't get,and if you are unwilling to pay a armed staff to give him 24 hour babysitting because he will hurt some child..for"fun" I say,Kill him.
Because he can't be trusted with his own body or freedom or not being watched like a hawk.
Kill him because he cannot be trusted at all.
Even prisoners already in jail know what to do to pedophiles.They kill them.
I wish people outside of prison understood the pedophile is dangerous and he cannot be trusted or tolerated if we want to have children grow up safe from pedophiles who feel no empathy,love or compassion in a healthy way for kids..
Kill all the pedophiles.They are not to be trusted or tolerated in any society that wants a healthy future without more trauma caused from these exploitative,manipulative, opportunistic untrustable, unrepentant criminals.

[neweurope]

16. KILL ALL THE PEDOPHILES! Be on the safe side, kill those

that have never done anything to children, too, if it is even rumored they might be pedophiles!

Better yet, kill all those children who have ever been molested by a pedophile asap! Because it is well known by now that a lot of them grow up to be pedophiles, themselves...

I have been abused as a child. And no, I have no solution. But killing is the wrong answer. Always.

-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[undergroundpanther]

22. I disagree.

Killing in self defense or to ddefend others who can't defend themselves is justifable.The strong must protect the vunerable.In our culture the strong exploit the vunerable. That is why pedophiles get away with thier crimes.

I see no reason to let pedophiles go on hurting kids whenever they are unsupervised for a moment because they cannot be trusted with thier own bodies anymore.
Do you want to babysit them? And do you want be responsible for some kid being hurt so it takes thier entire life away from them?

Some people choose to make themselves worthless and dangerous.I didn't made a pedophuile hurt me. I was abused too.And I don't pity sociopaths because sociopaths exploit pity.They exploit sentiment and utopian "mercy".

[neweurope]

24. Nobody "chooses to make themselves worthless".

And I did say I have no solution.

I will probably need therapy for the rest of my life to be able to handle the problems caused by the abuse. I still say killing is the wrong answer.

-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[undergroundpanther]

30. I busted an online pedophile

He said he liked girl children age 2 or three. He told me pedophilia was WHO HE WAS.It was his LIFE.
He would NEVER stop. He would rather DIE than stop.
..He said he chose it.And no one could make him stop.

I reported him to the FBI.The FBI set up an online sting. I helped bust him by getting him to "confess".Apparently he ran a child porn operation.
I was proud to have helped bust these assholes.
He said had two Daughters. Another on the way. He didn't want the "authorities" to find him because he wanted his girls to stay with him.
( do you even have to wonder why?)

One thing I have found out about pedophiles is they see all of it as a game.They like being seen as a "monster" it's all part of their"pleasure".This pedophile asshole I helped bust was online in the early 90's He was known as Spirit-chaser.I hope the fucker is DEAD.

Talk to one of these putrid people and you will see for yourself it's all a "fun"game to them.They like duping parents trust,they like getting away with it. They think society is soo prudish about pedophilia and it's all societies fault they just can't go around raping kids at will..Every pedophile says they LOVE children.And they really want anyone who will listen to believe they are not hurting kids by raping them.
This is what these fuckers say when you ask them WHY they are pedophiles..

Pedophiles can't be cured because they LIKE doing it.Even My therapist who has worked in prisons with perps says this.Pedophiles like the role of monster and trust abuser and they play a GAME that hurts people and they like it so much they'll die rather than stop..

To someone who is not a pedophile this attitude I saw from this pedophile is unthinkable.It was disgusting in fact.After the shock wore off.Since that incident I have since realized just because I can't "entertain" something that sick myself without retching,it does not mean someone else can't choose to do it and like it .


Some people are so toxic they cannot be trusted to exist ever again.

[neweurope]

34. Good you helped bust him. But pedophiles are NOT all alike.

That's as if you were saying murderers were all alike.

Killing is wrong.

I'm glad I live in a society that forbids it. Of course over here the death penalty is discussed, also - by the yellow press, without fail everytime a child molester is caught *sigh* It's easy to make politics with emotion.

Did I say killing is wrong?

-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[undergroundpanther]

37. Killing someone who is not harming others is wrong.

Killing a killer,a rapist or pedophile is justice and public safety.
Nature kills. Is a lion "wrong" if she kills as she defends her cubs from hunters? Is a person fighting a rapist who blows his head off"wrong"?

Self defense and safety of society is different thing from criminal murder.
Sometimes letting a criminal live ends up getting more people killed because the killer LIVES to kill innocent people again...HOW is innocent random people being killed not a worse sort of murder than simply killing 1 criminal who kills and rapes because he is playing a game,addicted to his own power trip,thinks he can get away with it??

Murderers kill people who are innocent,who harmed no one.

When you kill a pedophile rapist or murderer you are killing a killer a torturer who cause suffering everywhere they go.

There is a big MORAL difference between killing of torturers and killers VS killing a person whjo makes themselves a dangerous threat to public safety Utopias do not exist. Ghandi was murdered. ...

[BuddhaGirl]

77. "Ghandi was murdered. ..."

"An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind." --Ghandi

[LiberalPartisan]

74. Sorry - some folks deserve the death penalty

Sure - offer a fair trial if we must but upon the pronouncment of guilt the guilty person ought to be publically executed on the spot.

[eridani]

54. How do you know that?

Given the stigma attached to pedophilia, if you wanted to find out how many people there were who were attracted mainly to kids, but who decided at some point that they would never act on their attraction because of the obvious consent issues, how would you go about it? A phone survey?

The ones in jail aren't just people who are attracted to kids. They are people who are attracted to kids who also think they have a goddam entitlement to anything that makes them horny, consent issues be damned. Sociopaths, in other words--over and above who they find sexually attractive.

[Betsy Ross]

13. As a victim of incest

I can say that in some cases the perpetrator can change. But I sure wouldn't bank on it. Just dealing with this now after 40 years of depression caused by this abuse.

[babylonsister]

18. Betsy,

all I want to do is give you a hug. :hug: and I wish your earlier life had been different.

[CoffeeCat]

23. Betsy...

...loads of healing, peace and light to you--my friend.

I understand your pain, as I'm also an incest survivor.

Depression hurts, but it's also healthy. We lost a great deal and it's ok to be sad.

I'm sorry about what happened to you. You were an innocent angel and you didn't deserve
what happened.

I'd like to take our perpetrators and put them into a room and tell them what cowardly monsters they were--and are.

It sounds like you are dealing with the past, and that's a good thing. I'm trying...it's hard sometimes.

Wishing you the best as you move forward! :)

[CoffeeCat]

15. They probably aren't redeemable, and your outrage is JUST and JUSTIFIED...

Your outrage at these inhuman, evil acts on society's most vulnerable--is good and just.

There's nothing wrong with you.

You're a mother too. We're programmed to protect our children, and when we contemplate such atrocities happening to them--of course we feel compelled to protect and to fight. That's instinct---and don't let anyone tell you that it's wrong. It's not.

As far as pedophiles go--in the majority of cases they are so far gone--rehabilitation is nearly impossible.

Most pedophiles were also victims. Many victims of sexual abuse survive and heal. They don't molest children and they go on to lead amazing productive lives. Some survivors don't become abusers, but they don't heal completely. Many times lives are permanently shattered.

This is my understanding of the pedophile--based on my experiences (I'm a survivor). Pedophiles who were molested as children do not grieve their own childhood losses. They bury their pain. They remain angry and completely stuck in the trauma. Their bodies grow up, but they are nothing more than broken children who have not processed the pain. That pain turns on them--and it becomes their core.

Pedophiles grow up to covet children. They hate their innocence, their vulnerability and their lively, carefree, trusting demeanor. When they see these things in a child--it reminds them of what they lost. All they want to do is destroy that innocence--because they're so angry that they lost it themselves. They seek to smash and corrupt what is innocent and good---because they detest that they were robbed of these things.

Pedophiles are people who could not heal. I understand their pain. I feel for them. However, I see them as the most dangerous of human beings on the planet. They are the weakest of broken people--yet their ability to destroy is so powerful and strong.

My therapist treats pedophiles who have been convicted. Most had extensive evidence against them--including multiple victims testifying and in a few cases--photographic evidence. Despite their obvious guilt--my therapist said it takes, on average, two years for these perps to admit any wrongdoing. Their denial (which is tied to their own pain) is that entrenched.

Your instincts are correct---in wanting to rid the planet of these people. Who wants to live in a world with such insidious sickness? One pedophile can cause damage to so many lives and families--as he breeds additional victims--some of whom become pedophiles themselves. Their destruction often extends into many generations.

Child molestation is an epidemic in this country. One in four girls, and one in seven boys--is sexually abused before their 18th birthday.

I don't have all of the answers. I just know that this country had better get its head out of the sand and start dealing with this massive epidemic. We don't need denial. We don't need "thousand-foot" rules. We need real solutions--that include well-research, long-term, in-patient treatment programs. If you sexually abuse a child--you should be in treatment for a mandatory 10 years--at a minimum.

Again, I don't have all of the answers, but I do have strong opinions based on my own research and experience. I appreciate that others take this subject seriously too. Thanks OP for talking about this and for sharing your insight and your wisdom.

[The Straight Story]

20. Actually, father not mother :)

And I am a victim as well of this. The one that did this to me though I don't feel a lot of remorse towards, and we have worked it out. But then I was not 3 at the time and was his only victim. And he feels remorse and was only 12 when I was molested (I was 8).

But a 3 yr old? By an adult? More than sick and disgusting. Such a person can wreck many lives for a woody. Do we protect the sick pervert or the victims?

There is a line, and to me such a person who sees 3 yr olds as something sexual is crossing the line. No apology from me I guess.

[CoffeeCat]

27. Gotcha...father...

...not mother. :)

I hear you about being disgusted about the young age. It is revolting.

It's important to remember that pedophiles commit these crimes because they get off on terrorizing and powering up on someone. Although the acts ARE sexual, these crimes are not committed to achieve orgasm or sexual pleasure. In most cases, the perps get a high from killing someone's spirit and terrorizing their victims.

This is why these perps select children. Adults aren't as easily manipulated and silenced. It's easy to silence and scare an impressionable youngster who believes in the tooth fairy. Pedophiles are horrendous cowards and they are incredibly weak and damaged. They usually don't function very well in the normal world, so they create a pseudo world in which they can control and manipulate...and that is achieved the easiest by terrorizing and molesting children.

It's similar to a rapist who rapes grown men/women. They seek to demean and destroy and sex is merely a weapon to achieve that end.

[Blue_Tires]

29. you'll want to be careful

saying what groups of people should or should not belong in society--because somewhere out there, a person is making a similar arguement about a demographic group you belong to...I'm not saying the decision shouldn't be made on individual basis, but still....

[undergroundpanther]

32. Individual basis is what matters.

Some individuals are dangerous people.
Pedophiles are dangerous people. They like what they do.
That is why they can't be cured.
If they are caught,convicted,in the case of these pedophile individuals kill them.

That argument defending pedophiles framed as racism is fallacious.

[Blue_Tires]

39. quote

If they are caught,convicted,in the case of these pedophile individuals kill them.

ok, fine, have at it---If you want them to be tracked, hunted, and shot down like animals, by all means, be my guest...i certainly won't stand in the way

[Blue_Tires]

70. and i'm not framing this as racism per se

but all this talk in the thread about 'protecting the innocent at all costs' and 'they like what they do and nothing can change that SO drastic measures must be taken' has been spouted by extreme anti-abortionists that defend clinic bombings, just to use an example

[undergroundpanther]

33. My experince

I helped bust a pedophile online..
He said he liked girl children age 2 or three. He told me pedophilia was WHO HE WAS.It was his LIFE.
He said would NEVER stop. He would rather DIE than stop.
..He said he chose to do it.And no one could make him stop.

I reported him to the FBI.The FBI set up an online sting. I helped bust him by getting him to "confess".Apparently he ran a child porn operation.
I was proud to have helped bust these assholes.
He said had two Daughters. Another on the way. He didn't want the "authorities" to find him because he wanted his girls to stay with him.
( do you even have to wonder why?)

One thing I have found out about pedophiles is they see all of it as a game.They like being seen as a "monster" in disguise it's all part of their"pleasure".This pedophile asshole I helped bust was online in the early 90's He was known as Spirit-chaser.I hope the fucker is DEAD.

Talk to one of these putrid people and you will see for yourself it's all a "fun"game to them.They like duping parents trust,they like getting away with it. They think society is soo prudish about pedophilia and it's all societies fault they just can't go around raping kids at will..Every pedophile says they LOVE children.And they really want anyone who will listen to believe they are not hurting kids by raping them.
This is what these fuckers say when you ask them WHY they are pedophiles..

Pedophiles can't be cured because they LIKE doing it.Even My therapist who has worked in prisons with perps says this is true too.
Pedophiles like the role of monster and trust abuser and they play a GAME that hurts people and they like it so much they'll die rather than stop..

To someone who is not a pedophile this attitude I saw from this pedophile is unthinkable.It was disgusting in fact.After the shock wore off.Since that incident I have since realized just because I can't "entertain" something that sick myself without retching,it does not mean someone else can't choose to do it and like it .


Some people are so toxic they cannot be trusted to exist ever again.

[CoffeeCat]

36. You had better luck with the authorities than I did...

I'm glad to hear that the police listened to you and busted this guy.

So...is he now in prison?

You are an angel...you saved his children. They were probably molested, but they will get help and they will learn at an early age, that this was not their fault.

I reported the sexual abuse that my perpetrators committed against me. One offender was my father and the other was his best friend--a police officer. These animals molested me and took photographs.

After a year,I was told--by the Feds, that they believed me but that we would have to wait "for a fresh case." In other words, these guys have to molest more children and get caught before they can take action.

It took me 30 years to end my silence. These guys were into terrorizing and creating massive trauma in their victims.

It's good to know that others are being busted. I applaud you for being proactive and helping to save untold numbers of children from years of pain.

[undergroundpanther]

42. I Hope he's dead

He was put in prison. And in prison pedophiles are killed.So I hope he's dead.And the kids were put into social services care. The FBI ran some kind of trace as he emailed me to find him. I think if more people were proactive instead of"sympathizing" with these pieces of shit these fuckers would not get away with such crimes.
Here is a link you might find useful..
http://busting-pedophiles.tripod.com/

Well my story personally is alot like yours.I was wounded by a pedophile too and incest.The pedophile was a neighbor a "christian" he was a sick son of a bitch.

I ended my silence in around 25 years. I called the cops.Because the crime happened before 1976 they could not go after him.
They told me I would have to tape his confession on the phone.
With Maryland law if you tape someone you have to INFORM them first.
So a taped confession would be impossible.

The asshole is running around free in Florida.

When the incest happened,my mom was in emergency surgery, I called the police but I could not say"rape" my throat closed up. The cops were insipid. They said"little girl,just calm down and drink some warm milk and go to sleep ok?"..as it was very late at night.They just blew me off.

I was desperately calling my aunt to pick me up,she was not home.
My father died of Colon cancer years later.And I am glad he's dead.He can't terrorize anyone now.Including ME.

So Yeah I hate pedophiles.I want them all dead.And I feel no shame in hating someone who enjoys destroying kids, who would destroy me if I was little now,and making the society I belong to SICKER..and more terrifying.
So when I helped the FBI bust this fucker I felt a sense of being useful that I was doing something to help stop the problem that hurt me.

This idea floating around that it is so immoral to kill a destroyer of lives is just a warped twist on the Gandhi fantasy that confuses non violence with self defense,and ends up tabooing self defense. This idea is self destructive..Pedophiles exploit any trust or pity they can get.

Give your compassion to the real wounded ones.Plenty of victims never decide to identify with abusers and they feel great shame and fear and they feel like their feelings are dissed because everyone goes ooh poor criminal..

And contrary to popular sentiments,alot of abusers were NEVER victimized.

A pedophile preys on vulnerable people,they abuse trust..they exploit pity.I give my pity to people who need my support people that don't hurt people for"fun",the vulnerable,and victims.I am wiser than I was..Now I will not waste my tolerance and kindness on people who will exploit my kindness and abuse my trust and abuse people or kill for "pleasure".
Killing a killer a torturer is different thing than what a criminal does to innocents who have hurt no one. I don't know why people have such trouble seeing a simple distinction. Maybe this is why the left is ineffective in getting rid of bush,it's because they can't discern justice from evil.

Killing criminals is a form of self defense, on a social scale.It's keeping the public safe from people who are pr oven in a court of law to hurt and destroy other people who are INNOCENT.

Macrophages destroy rogue elements that can make your body sick these cells do a valuable service in keeping us healthy.. Likewise we need to let the courts do what it takes to stop bad people and neutralize their ability to harm others. If we pretend sociopaths are like people who can feel empathy,we will be taken,because when sociopaths are left unrestrained or are trusted,these rogue people will make more people traumatized and sick.

[tom_paine]

35. Ansolutely NOT redeemable

This one's a no-brainer. A resounding YES they would be better off never again returning to society.

[MrSlayer]

38. No, they should be found and eliminated as soon as possible.

And yes, I mean eliminated. As in dead. There is no cure, no rehabilitation for these sick, disgusting animals. I don't care why they do it and I don't care if they themselves were abused, that only makes it worse since they know how horrible it is. You get caught diddling a child, you should die, period.

[LiberalPartisan]

73. Agreed. n/t

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

47. Use a dictionary if necessary.

The topic is pedophilia and what to do about those sickos.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heidi]

57. You've gotta be kidding.

Google is your friend. Don't ask DUers to do your homework for you. It's lazy and rude.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heidi]

65. I don't think the discussion is about sex with three-year-olds, per se,

but about sex with children, i.e. pedophilia. And there's _plenty_ of research on the net about pedophilia.

If you believe this is a pointless discussion, allow me to recommend the "ignore thread" feature. Here's an illustration to explain how it works:

[Evergreen Emerald]

79. Heidi:

you crack me up.

[Gormy Cuss]

68. NIBRS, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

for the reporting year 2000, 1 in 7 victims of reported sexual assaults were children under the age of 6.
If you don't think sexual intercourse is possible with a 3 year old, ask any child protective services worker. I'm sure they'd love to disabuse you of that notion.

[Heidi]

80. I think you're right, Gormy Cuss.

A CPS worker _could_ disabuse a person of that flawed notion if (and this is just a hypothetical, ya understand) that person weren't preoccupied with rationalizing his or her own criminal acts against children.

[w13rd0]

44. There's a reason...

...felons off sexual predators in prison. Many of those incarceratd have children, or were abused as children themselves. So you aren't going to find a whole lotta people defending those that pray on toddlers. But I will add a caveat, since we are potentially talking about an application of capital punishment. The burden of proof in any case that potentially results in the most severe of penalties should be met and exceeded. Fortunately, most predators of this nature aren't very good at hiding it once called out by adults. Part of the reason they prey on children is they can't deal with confrontation by adults.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. No.

[RoyGBiv]

46. Well, this is just lovely ...

I should not post this. I SHOULD NOT POST THIS. I keep telling myself this over and over and over, and still, here I sit, typing, intent on posting. This is an atypical story, to most of you anyway, but as I've discovered, it's far too typical. Fuck it. Here goes ...

I was sexually molested as a child, from a time before I have conscious memories until I became aware of what was happening and made my abuser know I was aware of what was happening. I was incredibly lucky that the person stopped, but she did. Yes, "she." She was my cousin, and she's 10 years older than me. She is, imo, a blight on the face of humanity for many reasons, not the least of which she is a self-proclaimed super-Christian who secretly fondled (and other refinements) her baby cousin in the shower, in the toilet, in the bed, and so on and so forth. But the sexual abuse she committed is not really what's wrong with her.

The whole thing fucked me up. I'm still fucked up, and I probably always will be to one degree or another. I don't trust people close to me, at all. Period. Only victims of abuse will understand this, but I trust strangers more than I trust people I know. When one becomes no longer a stranger, the trust fades and eventually dies. Don't know your last name? I'll loan you money. Know where I hide my mad money? Stay the hell away from me. That sort of thing.

Almost no one who opines on this subject in public has the least clue what sexual abuse of children is all about or what it entails. In my case, it apparently started with my cousin "helping" me urinate. That became a game. Before long, I knew what boys twice my age only wished they knew, and it didn't bother me at the time except in an abstract way, mostly due to the fact I realized my cousin was trying to hide what she was doing. That is, I knew this was a "secret," and secrets at that age tended to be about bad things, and I remember clearly being 7 or 8 and wondering just how bad this was. By the time it all ended, I had figured out it was very bad, even though by then my testosterone flooded, pubescent brain was screaming at me about what a freakin' idiot I was. My cousin was a full-fledged adult then, and she hadn't slowed down at all. Things had just gotten weirder and weirder actually. When I think back on it, I hardly think of some of the crap as sexual, but by any reasonable definition, it was. And it was sick, and it is burned into my head as something I did, at times somewhat willingly, sorta. Does anyone at that age do anything "willingly"? I don't know. Power-based relationships mess up the picture, and our "relationship" was definitely built on power.

I was at my aunt's house once, at Thanksgiving. This was my cool aunt, not my cousin's mother, and she had this cool bedroom with this enormous bed and a labyrinth for a closet. Her house was adorned in strange and exotic art, smelled a bit weird but interesting. She had odd doors that slid into the walls rather than opened. Out back she had a mulberry tree that I liked to climb and pick from. She also had a lot of places people could hide for long periods of time, and my cousin took me into one of these places at one point in the day and taught me my lesson. Seems I had been listening to an Elvis 8-track earlier in the day, and when we'd prayed before dinner, I had not been paying attention to the prayer, rather reading the liner notes and mocking an Elvis Pelvis pose as The Lord Our God was thanked. I was to be punished by, first, having my arm twisted to the point it was near breaking, then by performing for and servicing her in various and sundry ways. I started to figure it out then. This wasn't sex. This was something else, some sort of GOD complex at work. I didn't have the words or even the thoughts for it at the time, but it ate at me for a long time afterward, the pain and physical pleasure combined with psychological annihilation. Beating my ass down by making me think I had it coming and that what I had coming I wanted. Using a lollipop as a microphone to imitate The King who wasn't the One True King, but who was the pretender to the throne of Heaven could only be punished by having that lollipop placed in unnatural places and then forcing me to eat it.

Dearlord I can't believe I'm even writing this. I swear my intention is not to get this thread locked, rather to provide some relevant insight into this whole thing. All I've read here is death, death, death, kill, kill, kill. You just don't get it. You think it is about sex. You think castration might help. How, exactly, do you castrate a female? Do you take out her ovaries? Do you rip her open and take out everything? Does that work?

You know, there are days I want that bitch to die. There have been days when I've thought about making that happen. Those days are long behind me now. While I have not healed, I have come to some sort of peace about all this, and if she had died, I never would have. Several years ago, after my daughter was born, after I saw my cousin try to lay a simple guilt trip on my daughter for dropping a fucking glob of jam on the couch, I blew, but in a controlled manner. I asked to speak with her. I took her far away from hearing range of anyone else around, and I let her have it. At times I was giggling like a maniac. At others I was bawling. She tried to deny, then tried to fashion something that may have been an apology, but I shut her up quickly. I could have killed her right then. I was in a white hot state of rage, but I contented myself with words and an admonition that she should never dare even think of having children nor getting within touching distance of my own child ever again. I was a total wreck afterward, but something changed that day. Nothing fixes itself in a dramatic moment. That's just for the movies. As noted in the beginning, I'll probably never be "fixed." But, I did move on.

And my cousin has never spoken to my daughter, and she has been married ten years without a single child.

I'm here at what I thought would be the end of this, and I realize I've not really made a point. So, I'll make my point, even if it's not entirely supported by the above. Are these people redeemable? Probably not. Do they need to die? Yeah, probably. Is it the place of me, you, or society to decide that? I doubt it. I could have killed my cousin many times, and I would have gone to jail, and she would be dead, and no one would give a shit but my mother. A female might have a better chance of not going to prison, but not much better. The thing is this. The pedophiles of the world are not exemplified by these caricatures you see on the evening news having been busted for possession of underage porn. Those people are sick, demented individuals, yeah, and they probably need to be put away in a dark hole somewhere and forced to watch movies of grass growing for the rest of their lives, but those people are just barely the tip of this particular iceberg. Chronic pedophiles are very discrete and very scared most of the time. My cousin was always scared, which, as I said, was how I knew something wasn't right. Other people I've encountered in support groups have told similar stories. They don't brag. They don't advertise. They rarely even go outside the family. What you see on the TeeVee or read in the evening news are the amateurs, the freaks of nature off on something akin to a pseudo-sexual bender. They may do it again; they may not. They may be chronic; they may not. But a true child predator will likely go until he or she is old without anyone but the victims having a single clue, and the victims won't tell because they have been trained not to do so until they've reached a point in their lives that no one will care what they say unless the abuser is a priest or some other high-profile personality that the media can turn into a running controversy. Molested by your female cousin? Big fucking deal. Was she hot? I've actually been asked that.

This talk of whether they should die or not is irrelevant. We spend more time worrying about what level of vengeance to enact than we do helping the victims, and as a victim, that pisses me right the fuck off. When the abuser is dead, is the victim fixed? Not just no, but hell no. The victim will probably spend their lives afterward blaming themselves for it because abusers are very good at these psychological torture games. When you kill the abusers, you're coming very close to killing the victim as well.

Now, having said ALL of that nonsense, I'll add one final thing. A distinction needs to be made between self-preservation, defending a helpless child at the time, and enacting revenge at some later day. I'm a father. My daughter's mother was a sexually abused child also, by her own father, and when my daughter was born I went to her father, secretly, and laid it on the line. Should I even get a hint he has acted in any way inappropriate, he will be dead. I said these words, "I will fucking put you in the ground." It's not poetry, but it was the point I wanted to make. He died a few years ago and had never spent one minute alone with my daughter. Three sons and one daughter literally spit on his grave at the funeral. So, yeah, I get it, but it's easy to just pile on with this sort of thinking and not actually consider what you're doing. I honestly don't know exactly what I would have done had I discovered my father-in-law harming my child. It would have been harsh, sudden, and dramatic, but I don't know if I would have killed him. No one can say whether they would kill in a given moment; you have to face it to know. I never faced it, so I don't know. But none of this puffed-up, chest pounding talk gets us anywhere. Children are hurt ever single day from this madness. We should concentrate on helping them rather than how we punish their abusers. That's not to say their abusers should not be punished, just that this is not the end of the matter, and too often, that's the way society at large views it. Criminal is dead? Case closed ... let the victims rot.

I'm done. I go sleep now. A bit of advice: never read a thread like this after drinking a 6-pack.

[Betsy Ross]

50. Thank you, RoyGBiv

Everything you said was right and true except "I SHOULD NOT POST THIS."

[RoyGBiv]

51. No, thank you ...

I didn't go to sleep as I said I would. I was too worked up after writing that, and I sat here and had a right proper breakdown afterward. Thank you for the acknowledgment. I hope you've been able to find some level of peace in your own life...

Damnit ... all these thoughts rush back to me. It is so messed up. It's hard even to communicate with another person who actually understands what you went through because the psychological conditioning was so extreme and thrown at you at such a young age. I could probably withstand physical torture at this point in my life, at least to the extent of not letting it force me to do something I was not prepared to do, but when you're young, a simple threat can embed itself in your mind in such a way that it completely controls your world. "If you tell, you're going to Hell," was a simply rhyme she would repeat. I think she's probably a genius on some level, giving me something like that so terrifying and so easy to remember.

[Kailassa]

81. I wish I had some helpful words to say.

But all I can say is thank-you for being courageous enough to share your story with us. Some people have no idea, thinking this is just benign sex, but it's not about sex. These perverts are a sort of vampire, getting off on the theft of innocence, and they leave their evil behind to torture your brain.

I hope you find someone to help you explore within yourself, and find the happy, innocent child who still exists deep within the most hidden places of your heart. It's not easy, it took me years of developing a basis of trust for it to happen, and it most certainly was not intentional. With me, I accidentally made a friend on the internet, and one day when we were talking, after years of playing a game together, I found this angel-child coming to the surface. It was the sweetest feeling of my life to have the child-me come back.

It doesn't happen often, but it's good to know that all the sick maltreatment still didn't destroy that vulnerable child completely, just sent her into hiding, while a stronger, less feeling me took over for the sake of survival. I do believe now that other people who have had their childhoods robbed from them will have the same thing, a child-self hidden away, who can come to the surface and again enjoy life with the joyful, untroubled heart of an innocent child.

[Rowdyboy]

56. I know you're not looking for sympathy, but my heart breaks for you

I was never hurt, molested or abused as a child and I can't really imagine the horror that must be involved.

Last December, my best friend's 21 year old son was found dead (drug overdose-maybe suicide, maybe not). His uncle, a 55 year old former attorney, is in prison for having a sexual relationship with a 16 year old boy, and lots of kiddie porn on his home computer . Did he also molest my friends son? I really don't know, but its very likely. I've known the father since 1972 when we were freshmen and he was busted for pot. I met the mom in 1977 when they were dating. I was at the wedding. Their beautiful baby boy grew to a man and now he's dead and thats all that really matters.

Thank you for posting this. I know it hurt, but its a good hurt-a clean one. You're with friends, people who respect you and appreciate what you have to say. Your pain and your experience will go a long way to make you the best damned father imaginable. Your kid is very lucky.

[Make7]

61. If there is any reply in this thread that needs to be read, it is yours.

Thank you for sharing - your perspective is very much needed and appreciated. You very definitely should have posted it, despite your inclination not to.

:hug: Make7

[NNN0LHI]

62. That is the most heartfelt and best post I have ever read at DU

Glad I clicked on it. I hope you slept well last night and thank you for sharing your life experience with us. You sound like you have it all together. I admire you for that. See you around and all the best.

Don

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evergreen Emerald]

83. wow.

Have you considered working with children who have been abused? I prosecute sex offenses. Victim advocates are always needed to help children through the court system. Children who have just reported abuse are so vulnerable and scared and confused and guilty and ashamed and are a bundle of nerves. They could use someone like you who understand them. Also, the advocates are generally female and boys seem to have a harder time of the whole process--especially if the perp is a female. It is difficult to find a male advocate.

I appreciate you allowing us a glimpse into the issues of power and control and manipulation and how that power is used to enforce the secrecy of the abuse.

You are impressive. You have protected your wife and your children--and yourself--from those abusers who still lurk around your family. You also have broken that cycle that I see so often in families who perpetuate the abuse.

I wish you the best.

[Jamastiene]

48. Lock them up and throw away the key. n/t

[obxhead]

49. klink.....

That's all I can really say. We are better off without some.....

:toast:

[LiberalPartisan]

52. No trial. No redemption. Summary execution. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

72. no trial?

did no one here ever read "The Crucible?"

[FooFootheSnoo]

58. Pedophiles cannot be redeemed or reformed.

Let's say a pedophile was reformed then, in my opinion, he would be capable of understanding why he needed to spend the rest of his life in prison. I don't think they should be executed unless they have killed their victim. If execution is not an option, then they should be dropped into the general population of the prison. I think it says something about the human race that even other criminals do not tolerate these people. I'll readily admit that my opinions are based on vengeance, not logic. I don't care either. Someone who would harm an innocent child is deserving of society's rage and vengeance.

[IdaBriggs]

59. I'm with you. I think they should be euthanized.

I find them to bring more harm to our society than good. I am tired of having victims needing to spend valuable resources recovering from the acts of abomination they are forced to undergo while the perpetrators say "I'm sorry I was depressed" and then go on their merry little way with minimal problems.

We are currently witnessing the "repercussions" of molesting a thirteen year old step child: ten days in jail, a bunch of money to the mother, and some counseling. The man who did it was "depressed." I suggest he kill himself next time he is so depressed he wants to molest his THIRTEEN YEAR OLD STEP-DAUGHTER!!!

He is the brother of one of my husband's best friends (my husband grew up with both of them), and the brother is trying to be "supportive" -- his daughter is only three now, and I shudder to think of the damage this family will face in the future. "He's not going to do it again," is what I got told, and boy did THAT make me feel safer -- NOT.

Its a good thing the brother and his wife will be around twenty-four seven when their daughter becomes "acceptable" and any of their grandchildren will be safe of course around "Uncle Dave" because by then who is going to talk about the fact he spent twenty years on Michigan's felony child molester list?

We won't have "Uncle Dave" around us or our family. We're hoping our friends wake up soon, and realize their job isn't to protect the brother, but to protect their children. Its a God Awful Situation, and its really too bad Uncle Dave isn't either in prison, or dead.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kailassa]

69. I'm 52 now, and I'd rather be dead.

I was abused as a child, and the anguish that has caused me has left me so suicidal, and with such problems with depression, that I would much rather my abusers had killed me, rather than leaving me with this burden.

I would never put myself into a situation of giving advice to children who have been abused, because my advice to them would be to kill themselves, because, based on my experience, it's not worth trying to get over it; one never does. I hope that is not truly the right advice, so I don't give it, and wouldn't even say such a thing, except in reply to this totally callous and absurd troll-post.

I would not go as far as accusing the poster of being a pedophile himself, but I do not believe anyone but a pedophile could, in the face of all the evidence around, believe such crap. So I'll give this poster the benefit of the doubt and believe he is merely trying to stir up trouble, or make a post that he can then report on another forum to make DUers look bad.

[Heidi]

76. Thank you, Kailassa.

I'm glad you survived so that you can tell the truth about how it is. The person to whom you replied has _no idea_.

[Heidi]

71. Your plan demonstrates a flawed understanding

of pedophilia, or an extraordinary empathy for pedophiles. You implied upthread that you don't believe sex with a three-year-old is possible (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=637920&mesg_id=638265) and now you're arguing for decriminalization of pedophilia in terms that very much mirror the logic of pedophiles who've rationalized their predatory behavior.

Do you not understand that there is a big difference between children exploring their sexuality together, as many kids do, and an adults taking advantage of a child's trust and sexual curiosity in order to satisfy his/her own adult sexual needs?

By the way, I agree that state-sanctioned execution of sex offenders is not the answer, nor is, in many cases, locking them up for life. There's a treatment model which was tried briefly, and on a very limited basis, in California, with some success. However, Fox News and general GOP-led fear-mongering halted that program for all intents and purposes. I agree, too, that treatment (real psychiatric treatment including intensive behavior modification therapy, followed by long-term after-care) should be mandatory for anyone convicted of sexually assaulting a child. When an adult sexually assaults a child, he or she incurs a debt to that child, and I believe the state, on behalf of the child, should garnish a portion of offenders' future wages to help offset the costs of treating that child.

However, I don't believe child sexual assault is an epidemic in our nation, as you asserted.

[Kailassa]

67. OP, you meen "sex with 3 yr olds", not "sex between.."

Actually, babies from birth onwards can have sexual feelings and can masturbate. I don't say this to excuse pedophiles, I would like to see all pedophiles loaded into a slow spaceship headed for the sun, as I don't like the idea of anyone having to do the actual killing. I was abused all of my childhood, until I ran away from home, and one of my sons has been abused, so I have very strong feelings on the subject of removing these perverts from the world forever.

However, a lot of harm has also been done by people who presume that babies can't have sexual feelings, and are too prudish to cope with what they see if they happen to have one that obviously does. So I'm speaking up for the sexual babies amongst us. It is perfectly natural for baby boys to touch themselves and for baby girls to wriggle in a way that bring pleasure. Not all do it, but there is nothing abnormal about the ones who do, and people need to know about the possibility so they won't be shocked if they see it happen.

I was just lucky that the country doctor my mother took me to as a baby knew this, and refused to give me the clitoradectomy that my mother insisted I needed, but my mother made up for it by cruelty in the bath because I was "dirty down there" and by referring to me all my childhood in third person, as "the slut".

When, as a single mother with no income, for a while I had nowhere else to go, I had to stay for 6 months with my parents, and each night my mother would come in and tie my daughter's hands to the side of the cot, "so she wouldn't do what her mother used to do." As soon as she left the room I'd untie them again, but my daughter at 30 still sometimes has nightmares about an old witch tying her up ... or bathing her.

And now I'm ostracised from my family because one day I found out she had done the same bath treatment repeatedly to my oldest niece, and felt I had to warn my other 5 sisters-in-law to not let mum keep having their daughters to stay. The separation from society which the disbelief of other people causes can be one of the cruelest parts of child abuse. And it can leave you separated from yourself as well. If someone stands in front of me in the street and says hello, I'm just as likely to look over my shoulder to see who they are talking to, as I'm not aware of being there.

I've still had a good life, in many ways, but I've always looked forward to ending it one day, and no longer having to carry around the burden of anguish that a perverted child molester and her sons have left me with.

Back to the OP's question, what is worse? Having some pedophiles , how ever hard we try to protect the children, reoffending and fucking up more kids' lives, or having, as inevitably happens, some innocent people executed by mistake, and some innocent people brutalised by having to perform the executions? The trouble is, there is no right answer.

[electron_blue]

75. I can't fathom it, either. However, shooting people who have sex. abused

children would eliminate a much higher percentage of the population than I think you realize.

Do you think it's relatively rare? I used to think that, now I know how rampant it is, especially among some families.

My point is, shooting them (or somehow eliminating them) is not practical and would only be feasible in the first place if we had a small number of people to deal with. Would you be ready to eliminate 10% of everyone you know? And it's not all the creepy man who lives alone down the street, or some stranger. Most cases involve family members or friends of the family, and secrecy, lots of it. And denial, lots of it.

Advocating shooting them, while I understand it, really just pushes the problem down deeper and promotes the misconception that it's really just the rare sicko who does this. We really need to solve this problem!

[Gormy Cuss]

82. "Would you be ready to eliminate 10% of everyone you know?"

In a word, yes. Starting with the child molesters who victimize their own sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, grandchildren. Eliminate every fucking one of them. I know no one who was sexually abused by a stranger. I know many who were abused by their family members and friends' parents or relatives. They're not rare, they're the most common offenders.

I'm not saying execution, but get them away from children all day, every day unless there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that they won't re-offend.

[electron_blue]

84. Okay, so practically speaking, how are you going to do that?

I want this problem solved, I want no more children to be molested. Yours is an ideaological solution - what *ought* to happen. It's not likely to happen and therefore, the end result is that more children will end up being abused while waiting for the world to enact and enforce a "lock them all up" law.

[Gormy Cuss]

87. Practically speaking, not segregating them hasn't stopped molestation.

I don't believe that I called it a practical solution. You asked if one would be willing to do so, and I replied.

As for more children being abused while waiting for the world to enact a lock-up law, children will be abused waiting for any other solution to be enacted too.

What's your practical solution, if I might ask?

[KingFlorez]

78. No, that's just sick

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

85. Did we run out of missing pretty white girls?

[earth mom]

86. NO, they aren't redeemable.

Most re-offend. The system is so screwed up that these bastards are often set free to hurt more and more children and that is why I think locking them up is NOT the answer.

I'm back and forth between the idea that re-offenders belong on an island somewhere together or deserve the death penalty. I know the death penalty is frowned upon by liberals/progressives, but this is something I can't and won't be PC about.

We have to put our foot down as a society. Monsters such as these must be eliminated from society or the horror stories will continue. I also think that if these bastards knew that the death penalty was a punishment, they might think twice before offending anyone ever.


:hug: to those on this thread and in the world who have had to live through such pain.

[JerseygirlCT]

88. I've been told that there really is no medical/psychological

help for these people. They are truly beyond real help. They're just not safe in the community.

I don't know that that means there won't be -- perhaps someone will come up with an effective plan.

[Moderator]

90. Locking..

This is flamebait and looks like vigilantism.