I bit my tongue last night...(a confession and a question)

[Jamnt]

Had my brother-in-law over with his girlfriend. Playing cards and the topic came around to the asshole. Asked for my opinion I replied that Bush should be hung up by his thumbs for the world to see as partial compensation. My wife and her brother both stated they didn't think he was doing a good job, by his g/f said she thought he was. A least twice during the rest of the evening I wanted to go off on her, ask her if she ever even picked up a paper or watched the "news". I wanted to get her opinion on Katrina and whether the poor people in NO think he was doing a good job. I wanted to find out if she even knew about selling control of ports to an Arab nation. I wanted to find out if she knew that the balance of power is in jeopardy, and if she ever heard of the phrase "unitary executive". I wanted to ask if she thought mortgaging the country to China was a good idea. I could go on...there's just so much damn ammunition it boggles the mind.
I wanted to but...I knew if I started I might start out slow, but that it would soon escalate. So, in the name of peace and an otherwise fun evening, I deferred. Between last night and today I've been thinking that this phenomenon, this avoiding of confrontation for the sake of peace, may be contributing to the stagnation. Now I feel guilty because the stakes are just so damn high. I know every votes counts (at least in theory) and if I don't do my part then I'm at least not part of the solution, and perhaps part of the problem. And I want to be part of the solution.
In retrospect I should have assumed the role of teacher, respecting her opinion but at least attempting to get her facts straight. Past that only a shrink or a few years of compassion training might help. So I'm hoping to learn from this omission, and to find a way to talk without anger. I believe if my anger becomes apparent I will have lost before I begin. After all, even imbeciles can dig their heels in as well as I can. I'm posting this because I also feel that I'm not alone. There is a lot of anger on the board, and I believe it's justified. But I modestly suggest that becoming angy during political discourse is counterproductive. I doubt we'll ever really know all the forces that shaped an individual with either "hive mind" mentality or greediness and uncaring attitude toward their fellow humans, but I don't think that's necessary. What is necessary to change those individuals thru education and perhaps some other ways of which I am not aware.
So a question arises now. What ways and techniques have you found effective in changing the attitudes of others?
(Sorry, this ended up being longer than intended.)

[warrior1]

Think of what she

would have said if the shoe was on the other foot. I'm pretty sure that she would have gone off for all to hear.

Liberal are too nice. You could have shot a few across her bow and warning shots here and there. Just to make the point of how ill informed she is. Probably won't changed her few but will make her keep her pie hole shut when trying to defend a monster like little king.

[merbex]

1. What you described in your first paragraph is very much like a

Socratic dialogue in which by your questions you get the other person to come to your conclusions

Asking questions in a curious not in a condemning manner might have been enough to spark more curiousity in that woman.

[xchrom]

2. not every time you get together with friend and family

means that you should ''educate them'' -- i wouldn't shut up if some one badgered me -- but you want people to come for dinner and party.

[Demit]

3. Why didn't you just ask her why? Why did she think he was doing a good

job? If she's as uninformed as you suspect, the simple question Why? would have revealed herself to herself. It's not confrontational, and it shows that you are interested in what other people have to say. Are you interested in what other people have to say? Maybe you should give that some thought, and don't think you have to "assume the role of teacher". Sometimes listening to someone opens the way to "changing individuals through education".

[Brazenly Liberal]

4. Give yourself a break.

You can't be on 24/7 duty. It'll wear you down and you'll be useless for the real fights.

Choose your battles. Fight those that can make a difference and give yourself some downtime on the others. Making one Bush supporter look foolish to an audience of several liberals and herself is only useful IRL if it offers you some emotional relief/release and recharges your batteries.

My rule with family is that I just don't discuss politics with the very few who aren't liberals. It's for selfish reasons - I need the joy and comfort of family more than I need to feel I've won one argument with someone who's only going to go vote GOP even faster if he feels humiliated and angry. It's also for non-selfish reasons - I need to be recharged, reinvigorated, refreshed for the real fight.

[boobooday]

5. She is dating your brother-in-law

These things take time. If they are serious, and she decides she wants to be with him, she will be around a lot. She will hear you and your bro-in-law and your wife talking to each other, and you can talk to her, and just share your knowledge, and gently debunk her fears.

This has worked with me in long-term relationships with co-workers and family members. You must see it as sowing seeds rather than plowing through all their old fears and beliefs and socialization in one electric moment of truth-telling. Let them feel the doubt, and the ambiguity, and reassure them it is okay.

So, if it works out for her and B-I-L, consider her a project.

On the other hand, if it doesn't work out, next time you see her, go ahead and bonk her on the head with it.

[Warpy]

6. She knew she was outnumbered

Had she launched into a right wing harangue, you would have been perfectly within your rights to say all of the above. However, it was a social situation, she stated her opinion and didn't elaborate on it. It was incumbent upon you to do the same.

I'm sure your brother in law is already working on her.

I don't harangue people in social situations, either, but I do use the dreaded word that gets through to the most Koolaid poisoned of Bushbots: unchristian. After I drop that bomb, I just let it sit and move on with whatever else is going on.

I don't want to turn them off completely. I just want them to think.

[mdmc]

7. when dealing with non political creatures, please KIS(S)

Keep it simple.

My cousin (a non-political bushbot - w. is a man of conviction) recently lost her job. She was well off, and decided to spend the summer in Paris. She was blabbing away (wine, art, people).
I asked her if the people gave her a hard time for being American. "No, no, the LOVE America!"
I asked if they love Bush. "Well, I stayed out of politics."
I asked her if she felt that she had in some way betrayed her country and her president. I told her about freedom fries, and freedom toast, and how some 'merikans wanted to boycott France for failing to support Bush.
She told me that "those people" were stupid, and got rather flustered. Not enough to be uncivil, but enough to realize that the bush-bot might look strong to the NRA crowd, but made Merka look in the places she cared about. I caused a knitted brow.

I use the technique of divide and conquer, using humor. When opposing the war, quote GHW Bush on why he didn't go into Iraq and remove Saddam.

Keep it simple, and one sided. Pretend that the Dems don't exist, and keep the conversation on the GOP division.

People don't give a f-ck about facts. They want to be sold. They want to "be right". Let the GOP 'sell them' on why the GOP is wrong. This is what McCain does on the daily show.

[Senator]

8. Yes, KIS(S) but rather KIS(S) and TELL (...them what "everybody knows")

That's the phrase I've found is most effective with both ignoramuses and the willfully self-deluded (neofascist dupes).

Just use the phrase in an offhand, dismissive, or even humorous way as in: "Well, everybody know he's a war criminal." or "Everybody knows he's broken the law." To which you can add: "not that there's anything that will be done about it."

These types of people put a great deal of value on what "everybody knows." Especially when it's something everybody knows but them.

Whether the cause is apathy, low intellect, or irresponsibility (or any combo), their habit is to follow the largest group. That's what neofascist propagandists like Rove prey upon. Because those of us in the "reality-based community" are not wired like they are we too often think that we can "teach" or "inform" everyone into agreement. It simply isn't so.

Don't give them any "facts" or information. They are well-trained by our Euphemedia to dismiss it all.

Just leave them with the impression that you know something they don't. And that a lot of other people know it too.

Yes, this lack of concern for your listener could be considered "passive agressive" or even a violent form of communication, but it really is the best way to "get through" to certain types.

--
www.january6th.org

[mdmc]

14. Thank you Senator!

I have a knack of debating. I can size up folks and reason with them on their level. I am going to check out the links that you have posted, then reply again.

I really enjoyed reading your post. :kick:



never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with their experience. I argue like an idiot, but in a good way.

[BITERIGHT]

9. Family

Family is the most important thing in the world. Don't throw it away on ANY man's 4/8 years in office.

[NMDemDist2]

11. family? she's his brother in law's new girlfriend

:wtf:

[leesa]

17. Really. Even when voting for fools like this will destroy this family

you say you love so much. I am always so amazed by people that profess to love their families so much but can't speak up to stop the raping of their children's futures. The GOP focus on family has caused the near destruction of our society and allowed them to gut our social services....is it worth it to renain silent?

[Zomby Woof]

21. Bush's 5 years in office...

...has thrown away a lot of families. Like the familes of soldiers killed for imperial occupation.

Or families whose children are denied college loans so the students have less of an opportunity to make a good life for THEIR families one day.

Or cutting Head Start so families can raise children with stunted academic potential.

Or exporting their jobs, so families have less fulfilling lives, can't afford their mortgages, can't afford healthare, and on and on and on...

Fuck you Bush apologist shitholes. Take your "pride" in America and shove it up your fascist asses.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

26. The woman in question is not a member of the family yet.

Let's hope his brother comes to his senses before it's too late.

What if one's family has been affected by Bush? For example: What if a relative was shipped home from Iraq in a box? Just let it go?

[riona]

24. you obviously care about our country and it's people

sadly, in the past few years i have met many people who really don't care. they do not want their taxes to go to "programs". one person even said to me, "it's survival of the fittest." how do people turn out this way?

[mntleo2]

10. About The Anger Issue

Politics and family ~ hoo boy! You raise a tough qustion. IMO this is because politics digs into something much deeper than the issues at hand.

I have found with my own family and friends, there are the very few who are close enough that yelling would never threaten the whole relationship and other relationships that would die at the first shout. The ones I know that would die at the first shout I have had to quit hoping there is much love there, and that they might as well be some friend of a friend. As a matter of fact I have found that this is a good guage ~ not to shout, but to know if I did yell, this would "ruin" the whole relationship. If this is the case, then it is a sham to pretend we are anything but perhaps neighborly friends. And the truth is, that I could count on one hand those folks I would be secure enough to allow them to see my anger or for me to see thiers ~ and only one is a family member, the rest are dear, dear friends who have shown their anger to me as well.

I don't know, I think if a relationship is not strong enough to last through yelling and disagreement, then the kind of love we hope is there,is not even real. It also means being truthful with one's self about the reverse, that perhaps knowing you are also fragile to any kind of disturbance as well. It is not the end of the world, it only means perhaps what a person deeply hopes would be true, is not and that to open up is not safe. I think when someone loves me they love me warts and all and when I love them it is the same. Yes I might be hurt and mad back if a loved one yelled at me or even yelled about something that is not directed at me, but I would never let that come in between us, I would still be as close because later I know we will talk about it and hug, and it won't end the relationship.

To know the truth about a relationship does not have to mean the whole relationship ends,it only means you cannot be your whole self. They may be your "brother" or "sister" in blood, but in reality they might as well be Joe Blow down the street because they do not love you for who you are ~ and the feeling might be mutual. The guilt of not loving someone wholly and not loving in return with family is something I think that happens. It is a painful process however, and I can understand why you are struggling with it all because it does raise a lot of questions about your relationship to your brother-in-law. However perhaps you can find comfort in knowing it is an important process for your own internal growth to find the truth in your relationship.

So, with some people you just have to "stuff" the feelings because in other times and places you are going to have to deal with them. It happens at work, it happens at social gatherings, it happens at home. No one is your true friend if you constantly have to hide the truth about who you are ~ and sometimes you are damn mad and there is a good reason for that anger. IMO you did the right thing to listen to your gut and not allow your anger to surface because you will have to face them again. What may be the hardest to wrestle with is in finding out with your brother-in-law if you can really be yourself. Until them, maybe finding people with whom you can be yourself could be an even more wonderful way to play cards. :)

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Just ask questions

That works for me.

It is truly amazing what these koolaid drinkers do NOT know. Ask her if she has ever heard of The Downing Street Minutes. That alone turned one of my repuke acquaintenances around. She had no idea that the intelligence was cooked. Freaked her out. Now she is hungry for more info.

[riona]

13. I wonder

if she is still in w's corner at this point, you probably couldn't have said anything that would have penetrated. come to think of it, the whole administration is rather closed minded.

[gratuitous]

15. The technique I learned was LARA

Listen, Affirm, Respond, Add information.

Sometimes you don't get very far into Respond, but if your brother-in-law's girlfriend becomes a frequent guest and you actually have a relationship, you will have several opportunities to add more information to her rather meager store. Other posters have suggested Socratic dialog questioning to get her to the point that she hasn't really thought through a lot of what she feels, and that's a good technique. But be prepared to respond in a meaningful way designed to get her brain working on some of the things the corrupt Bush administration has done.

In my experience, a lot of folks just let the depradations flow over them and they don't spend too much time thinking about or analyzing everything that's just flat wrong with this horrid administration. But if you can get her to see one or two points, it's possible she'll begin finding others on her own. If she doesn't, get her to see one or two more points, and remind her of the points she's understood before. Pretty soon, if she is around you very much, she will begin thinking for herself. At that point, she'll no longer be of any use to the GOP.

[stepnw1f]

Yup...

One thing I've noticed myself though, is emotions need to be in check before you even begin. If not, you can have the opposite effect on somebody who doesn't know much. They read into the emotion rather than what you are saying.

Confrontation still needs to happen. The lack of communication has created this wall in the first place.

[mikelewis]

16. It's called the spiral of silence...

While she can openly voice "popular" opinions, you're relegated to biting your tongue for the sake of peace. As time goes on, the phenomenom grows and grows and starts to spiral faster and faster, more of your opinions are branded as wrong even though they are shared by a majority of people.

To combat it, all one must do is speak. You know the facts, so hit her with something that turns the tables on her. Tell her you do not discuss politics with people who think that Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Duke Cunningham or Geoerge Bush are good and honest people. Apoligize but tell her that you have found that people who think this way are narrow minded in their support of criminals. Then refuse to discuss anything relating to politics. Don't let her spout out that crap to you and you won't tell her the truth.

Trying to inform her of the truth is futile. She won't change her vote no matter what you say. Jesus said, "No one puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved. No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’" When she's ready to accept the truth, she will seek it out. But it is better for you not to suffer the ignorance of a foolish man or woman. The longer you allow her to spout lies, the longer you allow the lies to perpetuate. Speak out next time and tell her you simply do not talk about things she's incapable of comprehending or is unprepared to accept.

[crispini]

18. Have you read Lakoff?

He wrote a book that is called "Don't Think of an Elephant" that is FULL of effective techniques about how to engage with Conservatives. It's very good and it really works. It is short and easy to read and FULL of great ideas. Here is an Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931498717/103-3767201-7547056?v=glance&n=283155

[havocmom]

19. In answer to your question: I try to get real info out there for more

in my area. And I work to help them discover ;) other sources of information beyond FAUX.

Beyond that, I walk the walk of my liberal principals. I am a good, reliable neighbor with clearly illustrated values showing concern for my fellow humans, the environment and my dedication to putting the best interest of kids on the top of my priorities.

Borrowing from Truman's "If you can't convince them, confuse them!" I have decided to show, by how I live, that what they think they know about liberals (as taught by MSM and Hate Radio for over 2 decades) is just plain bull shit!

"Win friends" can = "influence people".

I can't win them all. Trick is to learn which ones to spend time & energy on. Get them and they will be as ripples in a pond, spreading out your message further than you could reach alone.

I understand your frustration and you gave a fine rant. Hope I offered something in return

Peace, strength, and keep fighting the righteous fight!
hm

PS: My younger brother once married a woman who was WILLFULLY ignorant, despite her many advantages in life. I won the family pool on how long the marriage would last ;) Your brother may wise up soon.

[madokie]

20. Welcome to the real world

so much to learn so much to teach
but first you must ask, to see
you done good

[meganmonkey]

23. There are times to be silent, or patient

You don't want to start that conversation with anger, you don't want to tell her she's wrong, because that will close the door to any understanding between the two of you. I would take some time, and look for opportunities to say things or respond to things as they come up - calm explanations, simple facts, and let them all add up.

Because the ultimate goal is to change her mind, or least open her eyes, and that sort of influence is difficult in such a polarized state of mind.

Peace!

[Terran1212]

25. Don't worry; I do that all the time

I live in a heavily-republican area (it was once 2nd most republican district in the US); that situation happens to me all the time, unfortunately

[BoneDaddy]

27. Stick to the facts, back up

your words, know your sources, keep it unemotional, do not attack, and go into with the expectation that you WILL NOT change anyone's mind. If you don't, you are not disappointed and if you do make headway, you will be pleasantly surprised.