Why is a zygote "human life" but a sperm or egg not?

[KyuzoGator]

If the fundies really want to parse words and call conception the moment "life" begins, then why should they stop there?

It seems to me that by using their rationale, any cells that have the potential to one day become a human being are entitled to constitutional rights as an individual. So by using this reasoning, I'd really like to know (no sarcasm) why sperm and egg cells are not sacred to them.

[Neil Lisst]

1. in the old testament there was a prohibition against spilling seed

on the ground


so.....

[KyuzoGator]

2. It's also a sin to touch an "unclean" menstruating woman.

Let's not dive into the absurdity of the Old Testament. It's a long conversation.

[Neil Lisst]

10. I don't think you understood or appreciated my comment.

It's YOUR topic and YOUR premise. I merely responded to the premise you gave.

You are aware, are you not, that fundie's take direction from the Old Testament as well as the New?

[Igel]

8. More of a rebuke for Onan's refusing to

follow the rules: his brother was childless, and his obligation was to "provide" his dead brother with a son, IIRC. His way of "fulfilling" his duty was to bonk the woman, but to practice coitus interruptus. More than a little selfish, and contrary the family values of the day.

However, semen, like menstrual blood, was considered unclean.

[HockeyMom]

11. They take it further

Sterilization is self-mutilation and against "God's will". In that case there isn't even a sperm and an egg.

It is all about RELIGION to these people. I have found out that the most ardent among them are the Catholics, who believe that Rome should not only dictate to THEM how they should live, but to EVERYONE, Catholic or Not.

[bryant69]

3. This is kind of an old joke

I think Michael Moore made a version of it in his first book (Downsize this).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[KyuzoGator]

9. It's not a joke, I'm asking honestly. nt

[bryant69]

15. Really?

That's kind of hard to believe.

Bryant

[KyuzoGator]

17. Really. It seems to me that sperm and eggs are also "potential life."

My argument here is only as ridiculous as the fundies'.

[bryant69]

19. Well, in all fairness,

It's only as ridiculous as a sort of caricature of their postion.

There is some point between the existence of sperm and eggs and the existance of a child when it is nolonger acceptable to eliminate the biological matter. Obviously there is some disagreement as to when that is.

But this "question" is equivelent to a freeper saying "Why aren't liberals in favor of infanticide? I mean is there really any difference between a baby 10 minutes after is born and 10 minutes after it is born?"

Bryant

[sui generis]

4. yeah! and why don't we give social security numbers to

every little egg and sperm we can find.

Eggs ARE sacred. These rules are written by men who are pro-choice about what they do with their bodies and sperm, so making sperm little mini-me's would take away their choice, and we couldn't have that.

:sarcasm:

[politicat]

5. Resisting Monty Pythonism....

Failing....

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[hlthe2b]

6. Because the point is to CONTROL women...

Gotta have the egg in the mix. These misogynist pigs are never going to limit men's extracurricular activities--just like the Taliban--blame the women.

[meow2u3]

24. If they're gonna control women, I'll do my part and control men, too

I think we ought to start controlling men's sexuality. Punish them equally for their extracurricular activities, too. If she can't, he can't either; if we have to have repressive legislation, let it be consistent. Single standard, I say!

[hlthe2b]

32. RW men that think they won't be affected are going to get a

rude awakening... The RW will go after divorce first, porn, adultery next, and if they are forcing all these women to have their babies, the Fed government is certainly not going to pay for them. That means the gloves will come off to force the woman to id the man and force life time support You can't villainize and victimize women without impacting heterosexual men. (and the homosexuals will probably be force to "reconditioning" camps or something, if the theocrats get their evil way).

[Cerridwen]

7. Given the technology for cloning, does that also mean

that all my skin cells (sloughing daily) and my hair (leaving daily) also consistute "human life?"

Am I now a murderer because I go through molting season with my hair and skin?

/sarcasm

[Tab]

12. Because a zygote is a fertilized cell

and under proper conditions, would grow to be a baby (note that "proper conditions", to me, means, left in a womb for 9 months).

Sperm by itself cannot develop into life, neither can egg cells. They have to be combined - after the egg has been fertilized you then have the conditions necessary to develop into a living being.

[rzemanfl]

13. For the same reason that a NASCAR driver who finishes first is

a hero and someone who drives 500 miles three seconds slower is just a loser. I think they believe, however, that each gamete is entitled to and up or down vote from God.

[Cleita]

14. Because it's a silly premise and they don't want to go there.

It would destroy their argument altogether. Sperm and ova are human and very much alive until they die from being unused. Think of all those potential humans going down the loo so to speak.

Just because an egg gets fertilized doesn't mean it's going to attach itself to the uterus and grow. Many fertilized eggs go down the loo as well, not to mention miscarriages at later stages when an egg has attached but dies and is cast off.

To make the claim that these cells that could be potential human beings all have to have the same rights as a breathing human being is an idea that is even too crazy for them to process.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. By That Logic If ya Just Have A Cup Of Sugar Can Ya Claim You Have A Cake?

If you just have a raw egg can you claim you made a cake? What about if you just had half a cup of milk, did you make a cake? A cup of flour, can you call that a cake too?

Of course you can't. It's a completely absurd argument. But if you combine all necessary ingredients then you could claim you made a cake. There could be many different perceptions and opinions as to when it really is a cake, such as after it is thoroughly mixed, or put in the pan, or only after being in the oven a certain amount of time, but at any one of those stages one could claim they did in fact make a cake and it would be up to other's perceptions to agree or not.

But just having a half a cup of milk and calling it a cake would be pretty much agreed by everybody to be one hell of a stretch.

[gollygee]

25. No. Until it's cooked it is *cake batter*

not a cake.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. When Does It Become A Cake? After 1 Minute? After 5 Minutes? When?

If just under heat for 1 minute, enough time to just get the slightestttt bit of crustiness on the top, is it a cake then? What about after 5 minutes? After 10? Just when does it become a cake? After just one minute with the crust forming slightly couldn't someone call it a really undercooked cake? See the problem here? It is all left up to perception. There is no straightforward and binding answer as to when it is officially a cake, as that is left up to the individual to cast their own opinion.

What I do know for certain, however, is that no one could make any argument whatsoever that a half a cup of milk is a cake. Got it?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Because Only With Fertilization Is A Human Life Truly Formed.

A sperm could be considered sperm life, and egg could be egg life, like you have cellular life, plant life, bacterial life, etc...

But only with the fertilization of an egg by sperm, i.e. conception, is human life truly created.

[Ilsa]

18. Women should be on the pill so they don't waste an egg every month. nt

[applegrove]

20. If religions groups spent their time trying to save all the sperms..

there would no be any time for getting power, preaching, praying, televagionism, good works, hate, or anything else.

[SPKrazy]

22. Well Then I Am A Mass Murderer!

a psychopathic killer of millions, and millions!

And I won't stop either!

[meow2u3]

23. It has everything to do with genetics

Biologists discovered that any organism capable of the controlled cell division better known as mitosis(apart from cancer or tumor cells) comprises an individual life. Whether this life is dependent on another organism to sustain this life is beside the point. The moment the chromosomes of the sperm and egg unite, the zygote begins to divide and create new cells.

Sperm and egg cells divide differently, which biologists call meiosis. This kind of cell division results in 4 cells with 23 chromosomes each, known as the haploid number. With only half the chromosomes needed to create a human life, the finished product of sperm and/or eggs cannot divide by itself to create duplicates of themselves.

[KyuzoGator]

27. So are viruses life?

They don't divide, but they do multiply.

[Nikia]

30. No

At least according to my college microbiology book.

[XemaSab]

37. So what about fungi?

Before they unite to reproduce they are a happy haploid entity...

[havocmom]

28. bush isn't either

[Nikia]

29. Aside from the genetic reason,, large number of sperm die naturually

A man ejaculates millions of sperm when he climaxes. Even if one does fertilize an egg, millions die. The reason that many are released is because a woman's body is naturually hostile to sperm and kills off many of them. A man with a low sperm count of around 100 sperm is considered functionally sterile.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

34. and if he doesn't ejaculate, they die too

by being reabsorbed into his body. I think that's murder. :sarcasm:


:rofl:

[Crandor]

35. Zygotes die on their own too.

Only a percentage of conceptions actually make it to the fetus stage. Since the rest of them die before they can be absolved of their "sins", they of course go to Hell. But hey, it's all part of "God's plan", which nobody may ever question.

Just goes to show how utterly ridiculous fundie morality is.

[NMMNG]

36. As I've said before, perhaps the Fundies should shoot God

He is the biggest "abortion doctor" in history after all. :sarcasm:

[RB TexLa]

31. don't worry they are getting to it n/t

[Yupster]

33. Because a sperm or egg

left on its own cannot develop into a human life.

Once the egg is fertilized by the sperm, the result, when left on its own may develop into a living human.

Was this a serious question?

[HereSince1628]

38. It's really pretty simple...a living human is not the same as

a living Homo sapiens. "Human-ness" is a construction of society, and it is society that accepts or rejects criteria for recognition of what is human and what is not.

From an anthropological viewpoint it is rather obvious that differing societies, and even one society at different times will elaborate different and often complex social schemes around questions of what is life, what is human, what is a legal personage, and what rights and protections pertain to persons, etc.

Contemporary understanding of biotic processes (i.e. all that "knowing" which enjoys consensus status among biologists) is really never applied in its entirety as a backdrop of "fact checking" in the on-going abortion debate. Because law, ethics, and the notion of religious morality is not based solely or even in large part on biology, and because societies rather then biology constructs the laws that govern society, maybe we shouldn't expect to use biology to provide much resolution of the debate.

[pnwmom]

39. You'd make a good Catholic, because that is exactly the reasoning behind

the Church's ban on artificial contraception, as well as abortion.

[tjdee]

40. Can we be real about what the issue is here?

I get so frustrated by nitpicking and cleverness about "when life starts". I'm completely pro-choice, but not because I've convinced myself that zygotes are like dandruff or mushrooms, or whatever silliness some people say.

I'm pro-choice because I don't believe the government has the right to tell someone what to do with their body and how to make personal life decisions. I have no reason to go into the "is it a baby" debate, because it's irrelevant. I view it much like the Terri Schiavo case. Not my business, it's up to the people involved.

[retread]

41. A zygote is a SINGLE diploid cell formed by the union of two

haploid cells. A zygote is NOT an embryo. A lot people on this thread have missed that distinction.

[LondonReign2]

42. More to the point

Why aren't they anti-choice forces up in arms about fertility clinics? In that case we have fertilized eggs perfectly capable of producing offspring if placed in the correct conditions (i.e., in a uterous), but they vast majority of these are discarded.

Why is ok to discard these foertilized eggs, but once it is placed in a uterous it is a "sin"?

[pnwmom]

45. I don't know why they don't protest those clinics, but Catholic dogma

does oppose fertility procedures that lead to discarding eggs.

[leftofthedial]

43. or for that matter, a lustful thought?

[kevinbgoode]

44. Hon....a sperm can't be considered life because

there is no man alive who is gonna allow himself to be regulated or fined for ejaculation. Men believe that promoting discharge is not only healthy, but sacred - if they were banned or criminalized for promoting their sperm, there would be little conversation for men to have with each other besides a few grunts of dismay while watching a football game.

[Nobody]

46. Because in order to have a zygote, a woman must have had sex

And the antis aren't about life, they're about enforcing chastity. This is why they make no noise about fertility clinics destroying fertilized eggs.