Petition to stop H-1B visas.

[Virginian]

A new DU member, Kare, posted this petition on another thread.

http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetition/p/petition.html

H-1B visas may have been desirable to raise the number of programmers working on the Y2K issues, but there are no more Y2K problems, yet more and more visas are issued. Between off-shoring the IT jobs and bringing in the tech workers from foreign countries, it is undermining the American IT professional. If an American can't get a job in IT, students will no longer major and train in computer related fields. We can't let this entire profession shrivel in the US. We do need the home grown expertise; that is how we got to be a leader in Information Technology.

Don't tell Americans to retrain for other professions when India provides free college to it's citizens. Until we can provide all our students with a free education, the employment field is not level.

Whereas H-1B visas require the employer to pay the new worker at the US rate, the L1 visa is worse. It requires the employer to pay prevailing wage in the worker's home country, but I think the length of stay is brief. I don't know much about L1 visas.

H-1B workers who are paid at US scale, are somehow shortchanged in other ways with a lesser title or with a very long work week. There are incentives to hire the H-1B worker, they aren't hired because there is a shortage of American IT professionals, but there will be a shortage if the visa quotas aren't dropped drastically and soon.

Bush brags about how many hundreds of new US jobs have been created, but he fails to mention how many thousands of foreign workers were brought in to fill those jobs.

[leveymg]

1. There simply is no good data to support the proposition that H-1Bs

lower prevailing wages in the IT or any other field. If you want US companies to move their tech operations overseas altogether, cut off the supply of H-1Bs. Most of these visas go to recent graduates of US engineering programs, so it would negatively impact US colleges and universities, as well.

I support Fair Trade policies, but this proposal is counter-productive.

[Virginian]

3. If they could have, don't you think they would have?

If the companies could have sent the job off shore, don't you think they would have already? Why pay American rates when they could pay one fifth that amount? And, what is the difference, either way they aren't hiring an American.

I can understand that there may be a few cases where H-1B may be necessary. That is why I am in favor of dropping the quotas, not abolishing them, but the petition is all or nothing. I see it as a start to a compromise to get what I want -- Lower quotas.

[leveymg]

5. The H-1B numbers have already been cut in half from 155,000 a few

years ago.

Considering that there are literally millions of IT workers in the US, that's not a really big number.

[Kare]

13. It is too big a number

When the only jobs on the rise here are all
pratically bottom of the barrel poverty level
jobs how many does it need to be before you think
that there are too many?
when they send jobs overseas and combine that
with bringing more people in.. What kind of jobs are
there left for people to do??

<snip>

Information technology workers and computer software engineers have been especially heavily hit by offshore jobs outsourcing. During the past five years (Jan 01 - Jan 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 645,000 jobs or 17.4% of its work force. Computer systems design and related lost 116,000 jobs or 8.7% of its work force. Clearly, jobs outsourcing is not creating jobs in computer engineering and information technology.

<snip>

All of the occupations with the largest projected employment growth (in terms of the number of jobs) over the next decade are in nontradable domestic services. The top ten sources of the most jobs in "superpower" America are: retail salespersons, registered nurses, postsecondary teachers, customer service representatives, janitors and cleaners, waiters and waitresses, food preparation (includes fast food), home health aides, nursing aides, orderlies and attendants, general and operations managers. Note than none of this projected employment growth will contribute one nickel toward producing goods and services that could be exported to help close the massive US trade deficit. Note, also, that few of these jobs classifications require a college education.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=25147

also:

Wal-Mart just opened on Chicago's city boundary and 25,000 people applied for 325 jobs (Chicago Sun-Times, Jan. 26)
11,000 people applied for a few Wal-Mart jobs in Oakland, California.

We can't afford to lose any jobs whether they are leaving here entirely or whether they are bringing in extra people to compete for jobs that aren't even here.

[leveymg]

15. If you want more offshoring, cut H-1Bs.

You made my point for me. Either we make it possible to keep IT in the US, or we'll be working at the Wall.

[Kare]

11. too many asking to raise qoutas

The Indians want more issued, bush thinks they need more, bill gates
thinks he needs more.. The corps and pres want more its only some
of the people who want less.

In a press conference Thursday in Delhi, Bush said he woud
like more H-1B visas to be issued to Indian engineers, scientists
and physicists. The current H-1B visa limit of 65,000 a year has
proven inadequate for India’s outsourcing industry, according to
the industry.

[Kare]

9. No data?

In spite of the requirement that H-1B workers be paid the prevailing wage, H-1B workers earn significantly less than their American counterparts. On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.

Wages for H-1B workers in computer programming occupations are overwhelmingly concentrated at the bottom of the U.S. pay scale. Wages on LCAs for 85 percent of H-1B workers were for less than the median U.S. wage in the same occupations and state.

Applications for 47 percent of H-1B computer programming workers were for wages below even the prevailing wage claimed by their employers.

Very few H-1B workers earned high wages by U.S. standards. Applications for only 4 percent of H-1B workers were among the top 25 percent of wages for U.S. workers in the same state and occupation.

Many employers use their own salary surveys and wage surveys for entry-level workers, rather than more relevant and objective data sources, to make prevailing-wage claims when hiring H-1B workers.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html

That is the center for immigration studies.

[leveymg]

16. As I said, the majority of H-1Bs are recent graduates from US colleges

That explains the CIS figures you cite that show H-1Bs make on average 13% below the median. By the time most of these people are at mid-career, when they'll be average earners, they will have obtained a green card. There's no mystery about this. It's not a conspiracy to depress wages - most employers would rather not deal with the expense and hassles of sponsoring their employees, but its the foreign born who are graduating from engineering programs.

[sui generis]

2. H1-B Visas are literally indentured servants

They live under threat of deportation for not performing or for complaining and the program is universally abused in Information Technology positions.

You can bring in two or three H1-B Visa workers for every experienced W2 worker and work them half to death. What republican in his right mind wouldn't love that?

Three for the price of one! I have no complaint about the people who have those Visas - invariably friendly and hard workers and genuinely good people.

But we live here, and we have to take care of us fairly too. Jobs are not commodities, and if we just pick the cheapest laborer every time we will end up with economies indistinguishable from the third world countries we think are such a bargain today.

[leveymg]

4. They're not indentured, and they're paid the prevailing wage

that's determined by USDOL. In the DC area, that's around $75,000 for computer software engineers. At most companies, they're paid on the same scale, same benes as US workers.

The H-1B employee is free to seek another employee if (s)he feels exploited. I've never heard of an H-1B worker being deported or being forced to work under substandard conditions. I've been in the immigration law field for two decades.

[FatDave]

6. I was just about to ask you...

...if you were in IT, but you answered before I could.

[Kare]

12. wages are the same?

If there is any correlation between wages and skills, it is clear the
H-1B program is rarely being used to import "highly skilled" workers.
While the wage data do suggest a few employers use the H-1B
program to import a small number of highly skilled workers, these are
clearly exceptional cases.
Overwhelmingly, the H-1B program is used to import workers at
the very bottom of the wage scale. The wide gap between wages for
U.S. workers and H-1B workers helps explain why industry demand
for H-1B workers is so high and why the annual visa quotas are being
exhausted.


http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html

[leveymg]

17. That's a reflection of the labor market, itself.

The most experiences, highest skilled employees are usually also the highest paid -- Project Managers, Department Directors, etc. -- are a small percentage of the total workforce. So it is for H-1B workers. If you look at a corporate pyramid, you'll see the same pattern for salaries. The highest wages go to top 5% of any organization.

[leveymg]

23. Most H-1B are equally or more qualified than other hires

The so-called job shops that used to bring programmer/analysts in from India in large numbers and paid them $38K are a thing of the past. Most of that lower-level work is now done in Chennai.

[sui generis]

18. wow - you've led a sheltered life

I wasn't just posting because I heard a rumor.

I live and work in Texas, a right to work state, the "Telecom Corridor" and one of the nations top paying tech regions, if not THE top.

I have worked right along side people who were paid the "prevailing wage" for tech support even though they had their masters in programming, and doing programming 12 hours a day and most weekends on call.

There are some well compensated H1-B visas, but the grunts they bring in aren't listed as "computer software engineers".

If you lose your sponsorship you don't have an unlimited amount of time to find a new job or a new sponsor, as I'm sure you know. If you are already paid under market, it is also unlikely that you have enough savings to weather very long, and most of those workers are single income families. Finally, if you are paid above market, you're competing for sponsorships against people willing to take a hidden "support" position and do programming and on call work 24/7 for dried beans.

There IS a problem with it. It is NOT excusable or justifiable.

[leveymg]

20. Yes, there are some highly qualified H-1Bs doing tech support jobs

That's true of a lot of people in the industry. You'll find people with an MSIS, particularly older workers, who are overqualified for the positions they'll be hired for. But, that's a problem that's endemic to an industry where skill sets are quickly obsolete and where so much work has been moved off-shore.

I agree that the programmer/analyst job category is too broad, and should be separated out into higher and lower skilled positions.

[AzDar]

8. Hear, hear!! n/t

[Lethe]

14. yes they are indentured servants, H1-B visa hurts programmers/IT people

the way i understand it, the company doing the hiring of the H1-B worker is sponsoring them. If the company is unsatisfied, they can revoke their support and the H1-B worker is sent packing back to India. Guess what, they H1-B from India probably has a family, and will do anything he can to stay here. This hurts the poor H1-B worker, and the unemployed american IT worker.

The companies SAY they are paying the prevailing wage, but from what I understand there is little to no investigation or verification of these individual wages. They just have to post a memo on a wall stating what salary they were hired at. Who knows what happens after that. (i used to work at Dell, they have a lot of H1-Bs)

I used to be a programmer, and there was a huge number of IT and programmers out of work in 2003 when i was looking for a job. I would ask my perspective employer how many people applied for a job I was applying for, and the response was usually above 150. (austin) Almost all my friends had a hard time getting a job, it was the same story all over the place. Yet, corporations continually ask for increases in the H1-B visa program without fail. They keep saying there are not enough skilled american ITs and programmers. This is bullshit. BULLSHIT! They want to control the labor market for IT. They fear what happened at the .COM boom when they had to pay entry level grads 45-60k. And they are still pissed about it.

They should limit the H1-B visa program to about 1000 for jobs that are essential. Instead of indenturing a foreign worker, they should invest in the education and training of a bright american college student.

[leveymg]

21. Actually, every new H-1B pays $750-$1500 into a DOL training fund

that benefits US workers.

USDOL establishes the prevailing wage by looking at trade group wage surveys and by conducting their own. No employer sets their own H-1B prevailing wage figure.

[Virginian]

26. Where do I go to claim that training benefit?

The unemployment office didn't seem to be able to give me that information when my employer lost a government contract to an H-1B dependent company.

The H-1B company was able to under bid our company by making their programmers work more than a 40 hour week on a regular basis. Saturdays were just another work day for those young, male Indians.

There weren't any females in the group; most of the workers were young and still single. H-1B visas are a way to get around Age Discrimination and Sex Discrimination laws.

[SoCalDem]

22. What happened to steel & textiles in the 70's, autos in the 80's...is now

happening to IT...The race to the bottom is all about KEEPING the "extra" moeny for the bosses...

You young'uns probably don;t know this, but companies USED to give employees a detailed accounting of the company for the year, and gave them "profit-sharing", in addition to pension plans, health care, company cars, expense accounts..all the goodies..

Now they threaten to fire you if you need to pee...on their time:(

[leveymg]

24. That's why the Dems need to push domestic content legislation, not

restrict immigration even further.

If a company wants to sell here, they should have to manufacture here. These efforts to keep out qualified people with specialized skills is a road to ruin. We need human capital to sustain and rebuild the US manufacturing base.

[Kare]

7. Thank you

I wish I could have started a discussion on this myself but I don't have enough posts to be able to do that so thank you :)

[RB TexLa]

10. And the Neo-Whig talking points strike again n/t

[sui generis]

19. hey roger dodger

explanation? Maybe it ain't all black or all white.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

25. Ok, once again about H-1Bs

It's expensive for a company to petition on behalf of a prospective H-1B employee. The filing fee is thusly: $190 plus $650 for companies with 25 employees or fewer or $190 plus $1,500 for companies with more than 25 employees. In addition, there is a mandated $500 fee for Fraud Detection. Then, if the case needs to be decided in 15 days or fewer, USCIS has another fee of $1,000. All these costs are government fees and, except for the $1,000 for expedited (premium processing) adjudication, all filing fees have to be paid by the employer.

In addition, most employers use lawyers and H-1Bs add thousands of dollars in legal fees. Moreover, those employers that have a certain percentage of H-1B workers are subjected to additional requirements by the Dept. of Labor. H-1B employers are required to maintain 'public inspection' files that contain attestations on the wage (the H-1B employee must be paid at 100% of the prevailing wage in the geographic area based on experience and education; generally, most people use the government's own wage survey for this and there is a document that is completed called the Labor Condition Application - LCA - to certify the wage), benefits, etc.

In addition, the maximum period of stay in the U.S. for H-1B employees is 6 years. The first time one is granted an H-1B it will be for 3 years. The visa then can be extended (paying extra government and legal fees, by the way) until it reaches the maximum of 6 years. The H-1B employee can change employer, but the employer must go through the same procedures and filing fees described above. Even though the limit is 6 years, the H-1B employee is allowed to pursue a green card but, despite popular opinion, this process is not easy, it is very expensive and time consuming.

Those who possess extraordinary abiliity or have advanced degrees have a faster route, but for the generic H-1B employee the process starts with the labor certification, which is a very expensive process for the employer. Only after the labor certification is approved can the H-1B employer and employee petition USCIS for 'permission' to apply for permanent residence by filing the I-140 petition (immigrant worker petition) and then file the actual application for permanent residence (I-485) which can be now filed at the same time as the I-140. If the labor certification or I-140 have been been pending for a year, then the H-1B can be extended for a 7th or even 8th year.

H-1Bs are not only for IT people; they can be used for any 'specialty occupation.' This refers to any occupation whose duties can only be performed by those who possess at least a U.S. bachelor's degree or above (or its foreign equivalent; there are agencies that evaluate foreign degrees). I do H-1Bs for graphic designers, special effects people, advertising professionals, editors, etc. In addition, there is a subsection of H-1Bs (H-1B3) for fashion models and even fashion models are subject to the yearly number of available H-1Bs.

The L-1B visa (for intracompany transferees with specialized knowledge) is the visa category under which many of the foreign workers have come in enormous numbers to displace U.S. workers, because the fees are relatively low and there are no requirements for wage or even degree, just 'specialized knowledge' which is narrowly defined but there are always loopholes.

[Virginian]

27. Thanks for that info.

Some of the workers I previously thought were H-1B may have been L-1.

One of my previous H-1B co-workers invited some of us from the office to visit his new home. He and another H-1B had gone in together to buy a townhouse. They were so proud of their purchase.
It was rather spartan, they were sleeping on the floor in sleeping bags. However, they had a huge dining table and an entertainment pit where several people could watch TV together. They showed us the basement where there were 4 or 5 more sleeping bags for their renters. I don't know if the renters were H-1B saving a lot of money or if they were L-1, trying to have a roof over their heads.

I have recently checked the state occupancy laws for my community association and discovered that there were too many unrelated people living in that dwelling. How can L-1 workers afford to live legally in the US? Do they have limits to how long they can stay?

Most of the Indian H-1B workers I have known have been working on getting the green card and eventually US Citizenship. They didn't want to become Americans, they just wanted to work here for the higher salaries and retire at a young age in India. Somehow, that doesn't seem like good economics for the US -- earn it here, spend it somewhere else.

I would like to see companies train their existing employees when they get a new system instead of throwing them out and bringing in new, freshly trained workers. We live in such a disposable world that people have become disposable just like the sandwich wrapper from McDonalds and last year's computer monitor. Loyal employees have become nothing more than trash to the large corporations. When it gets worn, when it is no longer new and the latest model, toss it out. What a way to treat a skilled, educated human!