Parents file suit challenging schools' moment of silence

[The Straight Story]

Parents file suit challenging schools' moment of silence

07:15 PM CST on Monday, March 13, 2006
Dallas Morning News, Texas

By KATHERINE LEAL UNMUTH / The Dallas Morning News

An atheist couple whose children attend a Carrollton-Farmers Branch elementary school have filed a complaint in federal district court arguing that the state’s mandated moment of silence in public schools is unconstitutional.

David and Shannon Croft named the school district and Gov. Rick Perry in their complaint, filed Friday. In it, they say one of their children was told by a teacher to be quiet because the minute is a “time for prayer.”

“I do not believe there is any secular reason for a moment of silence,” said Mr. Croft, 37, a computer programmer. “This is just a ruse to get prayer in school without calling it prayer in school. Is there any study showing a moment of silence helps education?”

School district spokeswoman Angela Shelley said she could not comment about the complaint because the district had not received a copy. Most administrators were out of town because of spring break and could not be reached.

Since 2003, Mr. Croft has documented his battle against perceived church-state violations at Rosemeade Elementary, where his three children attend. His past complaints, he said, include objecting to religious-themed songs such as “Silent Night” and “God Bless the U.S.A.,” Good News Bible Club meetings at the school and a poster reading “In God We Trust.”

.....
Mr. Croft ran unsuccessfully for the U.S. House in 2002 and for the state Legislature in 2004. As a Libertarian he advocated that the only legitimate functions of government are police, the courts and the military. He now is involved in the North Texas Objectivist Society and Humanist Fellowship. His wife is a member of the school’s PTA and volunteers at the school.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/031406dnmetprayer.214283e6.html

[kenny blankenship]

1. Silent prayer just happens to be

the characteristic worship style of Xtian Protestants. But that is STRICTLY COINCIDENTAL!

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. This is why Bill O'Reilly says there is a war on Christmas

This guy is not helping.

[baldguy]

3. And you give credence to O'Reilly's bloviating because....?

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Sorry I don't mean to give him credence

I just think this guy in the OP is being silly. A moment of silence is not a bad thing. Silent Night - no, doesn't belong in a public school. Neither does 'God bless' anything and bible study is inappropriate also. But a moment of silence is not a big deal to me at all.

[derby378]

5. Perspective: "Moment of silence" = Quaker worship

Granted, the average Friends meeting for worship lasts for an hour, give or take a minute. But the time is used for prayer, meditation, quiet reflection, and "waiting upon the move of God." So a case can be made by the plaintiffs.

Kids should go to school to learn, not to worship. I don't think schools should be religion-free zones, as I would not deny a Muslim student her right to pray facing Mecca at the appropriate time. But while a school can and should accommodate religious students, it should not mandate religious worship or expression.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Yes I agree it shouldn't be mandated

Did I not read that right? I guess I missed the part that said this was mandatory. Oops. You can move along and just ignore me now.

[mondo joe]

7. The constitution test is not if it's "not a bad thing".

There is no secular reason for the "moment of silence".

[The Straight Story]

8. Well, I dunno about that

I don't know how many times I have seen someone call for a moment of silence to reflect on a tragedy, a lost loved one, etc. I would say it is pretty prevelant in a secualr way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. I'm not sure there has to be a "secular reason"

[mondo joe]

15. Then there's a religious reason?

Is that what's left?

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Does it have to be one or the other?

Is this really a black/white issue? Remember, we liberals and progressives are supposed to be able to see the 'gray' areas. :)

[mondo joe]

22. It's a legal issue, not a liberal issue.

See LEMON TEST: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/eclause2.htm

The purpose of the Lemon test is to determine when a law has the effect of establishing religion. The test has served as the foundation for many of the Court's post-1971 establishment clause rulings. As articulated by Chief Justice Burger, the test has three parts:

First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion".

[mondo joe]

6. No. O'Reilly says that because he lie$. This guy is pursuing his

constitutional right.

I'm sorry you'd side with O'Reilly's hy$steria over the Constitution.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Where do I say I side with O'Reilly?

Whoa on that one. I just see no reason to give him ammunition.

[mondo joe]

20. You just defended him by justifying his completely fictional "war".

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. I am NOT defending him

I am just explaining where he is getting this crazy war on Christmas idea.

[mondo joe]

27. But you're wrong. This is a legitimate case. His "war" is FICTIONAL.

And you are lending him credennce by even saying this has anything to do with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. But it does have everything to do with it

If it weren't for petty lawsuits like this, O'Reilly wouldn't have any case at all. Yes I said petty. We have much bigger battles to fight than this one.

No one is mandating that kids pray or do anything religious during this moment of silence. It isn't mandated where I teach, but we have done this when someone dies. We did it at an all school assembly after 9/11. And after Katrina. There was nothing religious whatsoever about it. And my school district is so strict about separation of church and state that we don't have Christmas programs anymore. We couldn't even put up Christmas decorations this year. Yet we do have moments of silence once in awhile.

[mondo joe]

40. Then we'd better not do anything to protect separation of church and

state or it will be "ammunition" for O'Reilly.

[Warpy]

58. Right, let's not give him ammunition

Let's be sure to say Merry Xmas to our Jewish friends, don't want him thinking we recognize their holiday instead, that's war on Xmas.

Let's be sure we never say anything even remotely critical of hate spewing televangelists like Falwell and Robertson, don't want to show disrespect to men of gawd and contribute to his thinking there's a war on Christians.

Hell, let's give the microphone back to the Baptists at those football games, let them screech their prayers out, don't want to deny them a voice, do we, and contribute to his thinking there's a war on Christians.

Personally, I want to stick it to cretins like O'Reilly every chance I get. If he wants to bloviate about some nonexistant war against the majority religion in this country to convince the persecution groupies that they're some poor, put upon group because they can't cram their crap down everybody else's throat 24/7, that's HIS problem, not mine.

O'Reilly is a certain type of jackass who will look for filth if nobody hands him a bag of shit to play with. The only way to control a jerk like him is to control what shit he is playing with at any time. I say ending organized religious stuff in schools is a great pile to start with. Maybe his head will pop like a zit over it. He's overdue for that.

[countingbluecars]

9. The ACLU challenged Virginia's

minute of silence rule and lost.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I am no lawyer but if you don't mention God

I don't see how it is promoting religion.

[mondo joe]

17. See "Lemon Test"

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/eclause2.htm

The purpose of the Lemon test is to determine when a law has the effect of establishing religion. The test has served as the foundation for many of the Court's post-1971 establishment clause rulings. As articulated by Chief Justice Burger, the test has three parts:

First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion.

[ProfessorGAC]

75. Yeah, But How Do You Prove That?

I know the Lemon Test and i agree with you in principle. But, i cannot fathom how one could prove a moment of silence has a religious purpose, or prove it doesn't have a secular purpose. It would seem to me as simple as saying "a moment of silence has value to both religious and secular people to have time to gather thoughts and clear one's head." Even if not true, and the original purpose was asecular, i don't know how you'd prove that.
The Professor

[countingbluecars]

18. Each morning the following statement

is read over the intercom, "As we begin another day, let us pause for a minute of silence".

Every quarter or so the principal reads a lengthier statement explaining that the minute can be used for prayer, meditation, or other silent activity.

My fourth graders don't appear to be praying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. They do that every day in your school?

Do you all say the pledge too?

[countingbluecars]

29. Every day we have the

minute of silence, the pledge, and a patriotic song.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. And I thought it was bad that we have to do the pledge every day

State law.

[GOPFighter]

71. Wow. That works out to 15 hours in a typical school year

One would think that 15 hours could be put to better use in a school.

[mondo joe]

25. "Can be used for prayer" if, of course, your religion is the sort

that lets you pray in a moment of silence.

[fujiyama]

63. That's what I would have guessed

I know I wouldn't have prayed for anything if I had a moment of silence in school. I'd probably have put my head down or sat there doodling in my notebook. And knowing most others in school, they likely wouldn't have prayed either. I remember morning announcements in school - these would be about as effective - meaning it wouldn't be.

Personally I think it's a waste of a minute of class time, but as long as no one is actually being forced to pray, I don't really think the parents will win.

What is with these fundy idiots trying to squeeze religion into EVERY single part of a person's life. Are people supposed to think about God every single minute of the day?

[NMMNG]

65. Of course they are

And if people won't do it actively, then the fundies will try to make them do it passively by having religion in their environment at every turn. Public monuments, proselytizing, public prayers (or if they aren't allowed a "moment of silence" where it is mentioned that one can pray, so the seed is planted), TV programs, radio programs, protests and rallies in the public square, billboards and so on. They'll make sure people are inundated with religion unless they are both blind and deaf.

[yardwork]

14. There are more important battles to be fought now, imo

I'm Pagan, and as concerned about separation of church and state as anyone. But this is much ado over very little. We have much worse to worry about now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. I agree

[mondo joe]

32. Is there only enough resource for one battle?

How does this one case going to court impede you or I from any other battles?

[liveoaktx]

50. That's right. If that's the battle he chooses, he should go for it

[yardwork]

67. Well, yes

Look at the state of the country and the world. We have a major battle on our hands, and so far we haven't been doing very well.

The dominionist movement to force the U.S. into some bizarre fundamentalist Christian ideology ruling all our laws is a real threat. Moments of silence are the least of our worries.

[mondo joe]

83. So if this family were not involved in this suit what else do you think

they'd be doing to fight the dominionists?

Post on a message board all night?

Scary!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. To Each Their Own Opinion. In That Spirit, Mine Is That This Is A Disgrace

An absolutely disgrace.

This guy has a right to his lawsuit. I have a right to think he's purposely being provocative with ill intent and is not helping anyone in any manner. Utterly disgraceful, shameful and pathetic in my humble opinion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. This guy needs to learn to pick his battles

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. And He Also Needs To Teach His Kid To Shut Up During Moments Of Silence.

That's just simple common courtesy and decency. It isn't about religion, it is about respect. If he wants to teach his kid that being disrespectful to those in mourning is ok and encouraged, that's his problem. But I say he can go fuck himself, and may god bless that child so that he has a chance of growing up with even a shred of human empathy, respect and kindness.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Is he encouraging his kid to make noise during the moment of silence?

Did I miss something here?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. That's The Way I Read It. From This Line:

"they say one of their children was told by a teacher to be quiet because the minute is a “time for prayer.”"

The way I read that, is that the whole reason for their rage and cause of this lawsuit is because their child was talking during a moment of silence. Instead of teaching their child that it is respectful to others to engage in the moment of silence, they are instead in my opinion teaching their child that not only are moments of silence a farce and not to be respected, but that he has the right to talk as much as he wants because the school has no right to even have a moment of silence. It is in essence telling their boy "how dare they tell you to not talk during a moment of silence for those in mourning. You not only can talk during a moment of silence, but we're going to SUE them so that they can never have a moment of silence again!"

See, that's the lesson I feel they're teaching their kid by this absurd action.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Well that is just wrong

What an ass.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. My Interpretation Or The Father's Lesson Plan lol

Sorry, so used to getting attacked each day I kinda default to the criticisms being about me :rofl:

Just teasin though. This guy is an ass. I understand the need to keep religion out of government, but stuff like this just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. The dad is wrong

and you are right.

Remember this thread the next time I say anything that pisses you off. LOL

[Solon]

77. Teacher was wrong, I know it "offends" you but its true...

As a person employed by the state, that teacher just committed a gross offense, and that was making the "moment of silence" equivalent to a RELIGIOUS action. Hence, since it is so transparent, violating the First Amendment.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

78. What The Parents Are Doing Is Absurd, Disgusting, And A Disgrace.

The teacher did just fine. The parents, however, are teaching their child a horrible lesson. I think it's completely disgusting how far some are willing to take the 'no religion in school' issue. This wasn't about religion. Wrong choice of words by saying prayer, if that's actually what the teacher said? Sure. But that isn't the issue. It is whether punk ass kids should be silent and respectful during a moment of silence. Yes, they should. And the last thing parents should do is sue over it. Instead they should be teaching their kid to be a little more respectful.

That's all I have to say. Bye now.

[Solon]

79. You know, your right, standing up for your rights is a horrible lesson...

to teach to kids. The issue here, in case you forgot, is whether a TRANSPARENT attempt at government endorsed religion, under the guise of a "Moment of Silence" is Constitutional in the first place.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. Oh Please, You Really Believe That?

To each their own, but wow. Just wow.

May god bless that child, and may he grow up learning how to be respectful in spite of the ill lessons his parents are teaching him. That's all I have to say.

Nite.

[Solon]

82. Who are the biggest pushers of this type of practice again?

Answer that and it becomes obvious. Besides which, it isn't even necessary, kids can pray as much as they want in school as long as they do not disrupt school activities. At lunch, between classes, before school, after school, at the flag pole, or in the hall, even in the classroom before the class itself starts. All that is protected by the First Amendment, so again, I ask, what is the purpose of passing a STATE LAW to REQUIRE kids to be silent again?

[opiate69]

43. Exactly.. I mean..

it's only a moment of silence, for Dog's sake.. it's not like the religious Reich are going to be emboldened by our inaction and try to get "God" on our money, or in our pledge, or to outlaw abortion, or homosexuality or anything....

[The Straight Story]

31. And I wonder what it will cost the school money wise to defend itself

I am sure it won't be cheap.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. At least $100,000

We just got our budget projections for next year today. The cutbacks are real and they are severe. Lawsuits like this, however well intended, really don't help improve our schools. In fact, considering they drain our dwindling resources, they do a great deal of damage.

[mondo joe]

41. Or the district could just abandon the practice. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Even if they abandon it,

they have already had to pay lawyers. The guy filed a lawsuit. So the district needs an attorney to respond - even if they DO decide to abandon the moment of silence. And like I said, this is an expense I am sure they can barely afford.

I wonder what programs will be cut next year because of these legal expenses?

[mondo joe]

45. Good reason to not get into murky areas with the first amendment, if

you ask me.

The responsibility for the school's finances is not with families that are wronged, but with the school board that created the liability.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. They are obviously trying to be inclusive of all beliefs

rather than exclusive. Like I told you earlier, we do this in my school district and I know it is common practice in many other districts. And I see nothing wrong with it. Neither do a lot of other posters on this thread.

Trust me, I would be the first one calling the ACLU if they ever mandated prayer in my school district. Or bible study. I recently turned in a school district employee to the ACLU who has Jesus pictures on the wall in her office. I vigorously fought the law that mandates we recite the pledge every day. Those are all battles worth fighting, IMO. But I don't agree that a moment of silence is offensive or a violation of separation of church and state.

But I am not an attorney. I will run this by my ACLU guy next time I see him and ask him what he thinks.

[mondo joe]

48. If the goal is to be inclusive of all beliefs, it is necessarily religious

and not secular in its orientation, and therefore fails the Lemon Test.

The purpose of the moment of silence is clearly to facilitate prayer - but notably only some forms of prayer since some can't be carried out in silence that way.

And the ACLU has already fought this in several settings, as I'm sure your ACLU guy will tell you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. And the ACLU lost

Are you not reading the other posts on this thread?

[mondo joe]

54. Yes - like Al Gore, it lost.

Considering the courts, not a surprise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. You are really reaching now

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

57. Eye rolling is not a substitute for a cogent argument.

But if it's the best you've got...

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. It's pretty pointless to continue

There are several teachers on this thread and we have all tried to explain this to you. But you just don't want to listen I guess.

Good night. It's passed my bedtime. Peace :hi:

[opiate69]

60. Since when does "teacher" = "Constitutional expert"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. I never claimed to be

just telling you that this is a common practice and accepted by a diverse group of educators and parents.

[mondo joe]

61. LOL! A teacher of constitutional law?

Let's see - where will I turn for civil rights expertise, you or the ACLU?

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. First you need help with reading comprehension

That reading between the lines isn't working too well for you.

[opiate69]

62. and, just to be snarky..

I'd think a teacher would know the difference between "passed" and "past", and would be able to use them correctly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. I told you it was PAST my bedtime

And funny how you would impose standards of perfection on others. I doubt that you never make any mistakes.

Yes I could be snarky but that would be impolite. :)

[high density]

23. So use the moment to think of how much you hate the moment

If you don't want to pray, don't pray.

[SPKrazy]

36. So Silence Is Now To Be Banned?

God forbid these kids in schools should have any silence in the classroom.

God forbid they might use that silence to pray if they want to, or to daydream, or whatever if they don't.

God forbid we should ever do anything to try to make school a more peaceful place!


geez

I just don't get it

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Makes me wonder if

silent reading is next on the chopping block. We can't have that - the kids might be praying!!

[harpo]

56. let me make it simple...if its for religion, it has no place in school

[SPKrazy]

76. So, In Silence, If One Has Religious Thoughts, It Has No Place In

School.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?


Talk about thought police!

[harpo]

85. no...afraid not, nobody cares what you think when you are silent...

its the intent of the school with the moment that's at question here.

[SPKrazy]

86. "The Intent Of The School"?

To give a moment of silence for people who might have spiritual beliefs to think about them and those that don't to daydream or whatever?

What the hell is wrong with that?

It's not favoring one religion over another.

It's not even asking people to have a religion.

I think the atheistic crowd is overplaying their hand, and I as a democrat, and a person of faith, will not support this kind of BS.

[SPKrazy]

87. Silence does not equal religion

and schools asking for a moment of silence so that students can do whatever they damned well please is not a problem for me or the majority of Americans.

[BiggJawn]

49. "And when they came for the non-religious, I said nothing..."

"...because, hey, you gotta pick your battles and not do shit that might turn-off the Swing Voters, y'know? And besides, *I* go to church myself, it ain't that bad! Them Gawd haters oughta try it once or twice!"

So, will it be the "right" battle when they take your daughters for Handmaidens?

[harpo]

51. If the school says it is for religion...it should be banned..

there's no grey area here

[politicat]

64. While that minute was very useful in HS for finishing my algebra homework,

there is no secular purpose to a moment of silence. It is promoted by the school district and apparently by the teachers to be a moment for silent religious meditation.

While I'm not much of a fan of the Crofts (I've met them; they're typical libertarian self-entitlement types), I'm glad they're doing this. There aren't many people who will stand up for the rights to not be thrust into other people's religion.

And ya know, there are a lot of non-religious people out there who work for the Democratic party and vote Democratic. Those of you who think we should sit down and shut up really might want to think about us going away... we make up between 22% and 48% of the state parties (according to the 2005 demographics document my county party got from the DNC.) Shutting us out of the arena doesn't help anyone.

Besides, we have the resources to fight this, so why not? It's not like we're using our powder for anything else... *sigh*

[Swamp Rat]

66. There is too a secular reason for a moment of silence!!!!

Extra sleep!!! ... dumbass! :eyes:

[yardwork]

68. Most sensible response to this thread so far!

[DanCa]

69. It must suck to be a kid today in high school (nt)

[Strong Atheist]

70. I have mixed feelings. As an atheist, I am against Virginias'

moment of silence. But as a teacher, I wish the whole day was silent, except for questions and comments on the material lol!

[rucky]

81. Secular reasons:

relaxation. meditation.

It calms a kid's mind and get them focused. There IS clinical evidence out there that it works, too.

[StellaBlue]

84. YEE-HAW!

We are here.

Even in North Dallas.