Hitler & Christianity, help needed

[NewJeffCT]

I am going back and forth with a person I know about Hitler. My claim is that while Hitler’s actions were certainly not Christian, he certainly invoked Christianity and used Christianity in his rise to power in Germany. And, given the wording of his speeches, there is evidence that Hitler himself was Christian. I had recently sent him a bunch of quotes from many, many speeches from Hitler where he clearly invoked Christianity.

My argument was that, while maybe he was not Christian (which is open to debate), he certainly used Christianity to justify much of what he did in his rise to power, and his acceptance by Christians in Germany was instrumental in his rise. If I’m also not mistaken, the Pope at the time refused to speak out against Hitler.

My friend claims that any invocation of Christianity was a ruse by Hitler: one response I'm sure Hitler did invoke some comparison to Christianity, so I'm not surprised that some other responses referred to it as well. It still doesn't mean that Nazism had any affinity for Christianity; people commonly draw from ideas for analogies and etc. even if they generally disagree with the sum of the related ideas. I feel there's ample evidence that Nazism was strongly adverse to Christianity though they might have tolerated aspects of it, at least short-term, because it was ingrained in German culture. The Nazis' long-term goal was to stamp it out along with other things once they won the war.

Response two: Hitler's intent in evoking Christian ideals in the below excerpts supports the latter explanation. It's evident that earlier Hitler was hoping to capitalize on the age-old animosity between Jews and Christians in hopes of rallying the German people against what he perceived to be the enemy. He's trying in a calculated manner to paint an image of virtuous Christian Germany in order to demonize Jews. Hitler was a powerful speaker and, like any good politician, drew from whatever powerful imagery that would help gain popular support among a heavily Christianized German populace. Certainly, a leader who has been compared to the devil himself in terms of evil wouldn't be above lying. And in his later writings, he all but drops the Christian link, turns it into the German people against the Jews and professes his wish to eliminate Christianity along with other religions. I think it's safe to say - especially looking at the below excerpts in the context of the later ones, that Hitler simply used the Christian ideals as a tool, discarding it once he was entrenched in power and no longer needed them.

Is there a way to refute his arguments? Meaning, has there been anything definitive written about Hitler and any sort of spiritual belief, be it Christian or Pagan or whatnot? Thanks

[glaeken777]

1. check Amazon

There is plenty of info out there on Hitler's SS and their embrace of Nordic paganism/mythologies. The Reich was drenched in such symbolism. IMHO, your friend is actually barking up the right tree, for the most part.

[YOY]

2. I agree with your friend and the evidence supporting it

points to the possibility that Hitler was creating his own religion with it's own rituals and cult-like attitude based on the worship of the master race and the false mythology of a true third reicht.

Christianity was just an afterthought and something to twist and abuse.

[CornField]

4. Yes, I completely agree

And, if one wanted to set about creating a new 'religion,' history has shown that the best way to that is to grasp the tentaments of existing beliefs and co-opt those (if even prevertedly) into your own.

[Iris]

13. which doesn't say much for the Christians who allowed this to happen

and the ones who still allow it today.

[YOY]

52. If you want to call them Christians at all...

There was nothing 'Christlike in their actions.'

[LostinVA]

14. Your friend is right

[acmejack]

3. Try these

By using historical evidence of Hitler's and his henchmen's own words, this section aims to show how mixing religion with politics can cause conflicts, not only against religion but against government and its people. This site, in no way, condones Nazism, Neo-Nazism, fascist governments, or anti-Semitism, but instead, warns against them.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[deutsey]

6. Good resource

[NewJeffCT]

27. I had used that one

Which is where he came up with his 2nd response. The No Beliefs one had quotes from Hitler from 1922-39. My friend's point was that after Hitler solidified his power, he dropped the pretense of defending Christian Germany & spoke just of Germany.

[gordianot]

5. Check this website. Al the photographic evidence you would want..

link
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm


sorry for the duplication

[TreasonousBastard]

7. AFIK, starated out as a nice Catholic boy, then...

became involved with some sort of wierd neo-Pagan nonsense that a few of his henchmen fell into mixed in with Chritianity.

I don't think anyone really understands just what he thought about God, religion, or anything spritual toward the end, but he freely used Christian catchwords and symbolism to move the people. I personally think he kept some childhood beliefs, but perverted them.

[glaeken777]

9. wasn't a very good Catholic

Considering he sent slews of priests and nuns who hid dissidents and Jews from the SS to the camps. St. Maximillian Kolbe is a good example.

He also persecuted the Protestant churches who formed an opposition to him.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Toward the end he sure wasn't.

[Dorian Gray]

15. I think that this is a great

and yet succinct, description of Hitler's beliefs, TreasonousBastard! I agree. I've studied his past. He definitely used Christianity as a rallying cry, though it was a sort of oblique form that wasn't specific to anything. He was also perverting his beliefs with the Occult and a sort of worship of the Fatherland/Aryan race.

[deutsey]

8. Hitler vs. Bonhoeffer (cheap grace vs. costly grace)

http://ctlibrary.com/3843


Bonhoeffer's theology was Christ-centered, which emphasized self-sacrifice vs. a Hitler-centered theology, which emphasized self-glorification.

[bryant69]

11. What is your goal in this discussion?

I mean what is your thesis? That without christianity, there would be no Hitler?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NewJeffCT]

28. No, not at all

I was writing a Letter to the Editor in response to somebody bashing that violent Muslim religion... so, I wrote in response about some of the history of Christianity, and I mentioned the Crusades, the Inquisition (nobody expected them, either!), the Salem Witch Trials, missionaries spreading Christianity to the "savages" in the Americas, and then finished up with Hitler defending Christian Germany from the Jews...

I had asked my friend, who is a pretty good writer, for some comments, and he seemed to get bent out of shape on my linking Hitler & Christianity (nothing else, though... this guy is not religious at all)

[trotsky]

12. It really comes down to "good Christian" vs. "bad Christian."

Is it fair to simply decree that anyone who does bad automatically can't be a Christian? Every argument I've seen against Hitler being a Christian has come from that angle.

There have been horrible, nasty Christians. This does not in itself falsify Christianity, and Christians do themselves a great disservice to try and spin away the horrible things done in the name of their religion.

[glaeken777]

16. sorta

I'd augment your argument to "everyone who does bad and remains unrepentant cannot be a Christian".

Christians remain morally responsible for their actions... ie, you must repent and make reparations for your sins in order to remain in "good standing".

Hitler certainly didn't repent a thing.

[trotsky]

22. It all depends on what one views as a "sin," now doesn't it?

Is homosexuality a sin?

Some Christians think so, some don't.

Abortion? Again, some do, some don't.

Some Christians (certainly Hitler) felt it was not a sin to kill Jews, the killers of Christ. In fact, he felt those actions where ordained by god. From his point of view, there was nothing to repent.

Was Hitler wrong? Answer me only after you've gotten ALL Christians to agree on whether homosexuality and abortion are sins.

[Dorian Gray]

17. I think that what people

see as non-Christian in Hitler was his embrace of the Occult and a sort of Neo-Paganism. That, according to most Christian denominations, is not compatible with Christianity. Plus, his reverence for the Master Race and the state of Germany was his FIRST allegiance.

[trotsky]

24. Christianity already includes elements of Paganism.

Christmas, Easter, rosary beads, Virgin Mary (earth mother), etc. Those, according to most Christian denominations, ARE compatible with Christianity. Hitler used more elements, but it's not like there ever was, or ever will be, a "pure" Christianity. Unless you're going to set yourself up as the arbiter of what is "real" Christianity?

[Dorian Gray]

32. I would never claim to be the arbiter of what is "real" Christianity.

I'm telling you why I and so many others don't consider HITLER to be a very good Christian. His dependence on mediums, the Occult, and killing millions of people (including Catholic priests) kind of contradicts his being a "good" anything. Including Christian. And those ties kind of indicate that he was veering away from a "pure" Christianity. One that focuses on the Trinity and Salvation. Whether Christianity has historically included pagan holidays or practices into its own practice an interesting historical study, of course. But, at the same time, it doesn't detract from Hitler's usage of the Occult as being contradictory to the religion in which he was baptized... and the religion he claimed for himself.

[trotsky]

33. I see your reasoning basically following two lines:

1) "Hitler was bad, therefore he could not have been a Christian, because Christians are good." (Begging the question)

2) "Hitler also believed this-and-that, and true Christians don't believe this-and-that, so Hitler wasn't a Christian." (Many Christians here in the U.S. believe in horoscopes and psychic hotlines. Are they still Christians, by your standard?)

[Dorian Gray]

42. No...

you are not hearing anything I said. Or you are misrepresenting it. Or you are just blind to the distinctions because you are not, yourself, coming from the same state of mind that I am. Which is all fine and good. It doesn't really matter.

Hitler was an evil mother-f%*$#r. Whether you think he was a Christian and I believe that he was some amalgamation of Christian/Occultist/Nationalist/Neo-Pagan doesn't really matter. He was a cruel asshole who murdered millions.




Edited to add: In my last post, I said... word for word... THIS:


"I'm telling you why I and so many others don't consider HITLER to be a very good Christian. "


That doesn't say that he was in no way Christian. He used Christian imagery in his speeches. I admit that. You are inferring from what I am saying something that I haven't said. You are probably taking the arguments that other people have made in the past that refuse to admit that he was in any way Christian. I am not saying that. And I am telling you why people (other than myself) may conclude that his Occultism and his Neo-Paganistic leanings may actually negate his Christianity. According to many they can not coexist.

Personally, I believe that it is wrong to go to a medium or rely on astrology if you are Christian. I know many people who do it, anyhow. I in no way believe that they aren't really Christian, though I do believe that you are pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable to Christianity.

[trotsky]

45. Well, I am coming from the state of mind of a non-Christian.

So I'm not inclined to have to look for ways to exclude Hitler from the "good" Christian family. And as I thought I made perfectly clear, I don't blame Christianity for Hitler, or for the Holocaust.

I also fully understand that even if Hitler was a Christian, you don't consider him a "good" Christian. But you see, that's the very point. What's a "good" Christian? To even begin to answer that question, you have to first engage in a bit of cherry-picking with bible verses. Paul says that good Christian women should remain quiet in church and never teach. Do you agree or not? And so on. Next, you have to justify why what you've picked out is "better" than what other Christians have done. Etc.

Christianity isn't a thing or a perfectly-defined set of principles. It's a spectrum. You can't call any one shade more "valid" than another. There are Christian astrologers. Christian fortune-tellers. Christian Aryans. Christian charities. And so on. What you call a "good" Christian can only be done from within the context of what YOU consider to be a Christian. Those other Christians can just as easily call YOU a bad Christian. Who is right?

[bryant69]

18. Yeah if that were the whole argument against Hitlers

Christianity, that would be kind of sad. Unfortunately, there are other elements to the arguement as well.

[trotsky]

25. The fundamental issue is, we can never know for certain.

We can't even know if George Bush is really a Christian. It's always possible that the person claiming to be a Christian just has a really different concept of what Christianity is. Since the bible is contraditory on so many points, it's easy to see how people can come up with these different ideas and pretty much be equally justified in doing so. It's all a matter of which parts you pick, and which parts you discard or ignore.

[bryant69]

29. Yes and no

Obviously we can't read Hitler's mind. On the other hand he was a well documented man - there certainly is a large body of evidence to look at. Some evidence does link him to Christianity and other evidence seems contrary. So the job of the intellectual historian is to find out which train of thought was dominent.

Bryant

[trotsky]

31. There's a point being missed.

There is considerable disagreement among Christians as to who is a Christian, to this day. I recall you are a Mormon, correct? Surely you know that there are many Christians who do not consider Mormons to be Christian.

Nearly all the evidence against Hitler's Christianity can be divided into two groups:

1) Evidence that merely indicates Hitler had a different interpretation of Christianity. (As I mentioned above.)

2) The suspect "Table Talk", which was compiled and edited by his intensely anti-Catholic assistant Bormann. (And interestly, much of "Table Talk" actually fits in with #1 as well.)

[bryant69]

34. Fair enough.

However saying he was a Christian may not be enough, in this particular context.

This sort of discussion is an attempt to gauge how responsible Christianity is for Hitler's actions. In the OPs context (if I understand correctly) it's being used as part of an argument to show that Christianity is as murderous as Islam (if not more so). I'm not sure I'd argue the underlying point (all religions have their atrocities (althoguh a few of done better than others)).

So the question becomes not was Hitler a Christian, but was Christianity motivating his actions and molding his thought, in a similar way to how Islam motivates suicide bombers in Iraq (or the 9/11 hijackers).

Bryant

[trotsky]

36. I think the argument is still the same,

you're just shifting the context.

The debate moves from "Was Hitler a Christian" to "Was Christianity motivating his actions and molding his thought" - well, yes, if Hitler felt his Christianity was "true" Christianity. Just like Hitler was a Christian if he felt he was a "true" Christian. And since we can't know what he really thought, we'll never be able to answer either question.

[bryant69]

37. The argument isn't the same

Here are two questions.

Was Hitler a Christian?

Was Hitler's Christianity the main ingredient in his thought, motivating his madness?

Those are different questions.

But your argument could be that Hitler's Christianity was the main ingredient in his thought, and I would disagree, based on my knowledge of the subject (which isn't negligible, but I'm not an expert either).

Let's not mince words, if you want to hold Christianity responsible for the Holocaust, well, you've got to prove that Hitler was a Christian and was acting as a Christian when he set the holocaust in motion.

Bryant

[trotsky]

38. I don't hold Christianity responsible for the Holocaust.

Never made that claim. Don't have to defend it. Though your criteria for proof still don't escape the difficulties we've already covered. Was Hitler a Christian? Maybe, if you allow for the fact that he had his own version of Christianity (as does pretty much every Christian). Was he acting as a Christian when the Holocaust was set in motion? Again, if you permit that Hitler's Christianity was true to him.

Regardless, I think both of the questions are the same. If someone is a Christian, then it would seem to logically follow that their main motivation is Christianity. Or vice-versa - if someone's main motivation is Christianity, then they are a Christian, right? Oh the questions are worded differently, but it's basically the same point.

[bryant69]

39. They aren't in my mind

Because it is entirely possible to imagine a person calling himself a Christian who is motivated primarily by greed or selfishness or patriotism or nationalism or any number of other potential motivations. Such a person may spend relatively little or no time thinking about his faith or trying to justify his actions by his faith, while still describing himself as a Christian.

So a person can, in my opinion, be a Christian and not motivated by Christianity. I would say I myself, I do attend Church and think about my faith a lot. But are all my business decisions based on my faith? No, relatively few are. They may be informed by my faith, sometimes in ways I don't realize. But I should think itwould be very hard to draw a graph of my life and draw everything back to my religion.

Bryant

[trotsky]

46. So we're back to where we started.

The only thing you can claim is that Hitler isn't a Christian as YOU define the term, which doesn't address the overall issue.

[bryant69]

48. I haven't claimed anything at all.

I can see there is some evidence going both ways.

I will say that the case for Hitler's decisions being made on the basis of Christianity is less clear cut then similar cases for Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King.

Bryant

[trotsky]

49. Don't be so sure about Lincoln... ;-)

"The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma." -- Abraham Lincoln

"My earlier views at the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." -- Abraham Lincoln

[misternormal]

66. Look...

"Because it is entirely possible to imagine a person calling himself a Christian who is motivated primarily by greed or selfishness or patriotism or nationalism or any number of other potential motivations."

This thread is really about the self-proclaimed, born again Christian, G. W. Bush

[cali]

19. I don't think you and your friend

are that far apart. Hitler absolutely used Chirstianity, more particularly he made lavish use of eschatology and particular use of millenarianism This has been widely noted by historians. Norman Cohn, the esteemed British historian has written about it, comparing the Nazi movement to millenarian sects of the middle ages.

Hitler created his own bizarre belief system out of hunks of Christianity (hey that whole macho Christ thing in America today is directly related to the Nazi "Christian" philosophy) and bits and pieces of mythology and the occult.

[NewJeffCT]

53. I agree that we're not far apart

I think we're both interpreting the other's responses a bit differently than we intend. My original thought was that what Hitler did was, as Hitler himself stated, in defense of Christian Germany. My friend's response was disagreeing that Hitler was Christian... now, while I may implied that Hitler is Christian via circumstantial evidence if he is speaking about defending Christian Germany, but I never directly stated Hitler was Christian.

[hootinholler]

20. .

[moobu2]

21. Read "The Holy Reich":

Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945, by Richard Steigman.

Richard Steigmann-Gall is Assistant Professor of History at Kent State University.

The Nazis were Christians too.

An interview with Richard Steigman-Gall,
author of The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity,
1919-1945.

At a time when right-wing Christians are exerting great influence over White House policy, it is perhaps time to ask if all Christian influence is good influence.

The current situation has some surprising parallels with Nazi Germany. Richard Steigman-Gall of Kent State University has recently released a book which examines the influence of Christian beliefs on Nazi Germany. In the past historians have argued that Nazis publicly posed as Christians to score political points, but privately deplored the religion. However, Steigman-Gall has reached a very different conclusion by looking at the diaries, private writings and communications of the most influential Nazis, including Hitler. Far from deploring Christianity, many important Nazis felt that their racist policies were inspired by Protestant Christianity.

How could Christianity be the inspiration for the Final Solution? And does this suggest ominous parallels with the current influence of right-wing Protestants in the United States? The Turning’s Stephen Milton spoke to Dr Steigman-Gall to find out.

http://www.theturning.org/folder/nazis.html

[NewJeffCT]

30. thanks

some good stuff in there.

[Nabia2004]

77. just the book I was looking for - thank you - nt

DU is a wonderful resource.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I doubt that a sociopath like Hitler was capable of any genuine

religious feelings. Like today's Republicanites, he found Christian symbolism to be a handy way of rallying the German people, but it wasn't a major part of his appeal. There was just as much German nationalism in his speeches, a trait that was immediately appealing to a country that had gone from being one of the most prosperous countries of Europe to being ruined economically in the wake of World War I.

He was REALLY into Germanic paganism, though, with all the stories of warrior gods. It fed his delusions of grandeur. He was famously a fan of Richard Wagner's operas for that reason.

I remember a discussion my parents had with a German emigre of their generation. When they asked him why people supported Hitler, he gave the as reasons the desperate economic situation and people's feelings that Germany had gotten a raw deal at the end of World War I. This emigre said that Hitler started out slowly, and that there were some good things mixed in with the bad, like public works programs for the unemployed. In today's terms, people though that he "kicked ass," because he demanded the right to re-arm and to take ethnic German enclaves in other countries.

Very few people saw the dangers until it was too late. There are films of ecstatic crowds in Berlin seeing the troops off to fight in Poland. They are marching through attractive streets lined with well-fed, well-dressed people.

If they could have foreseen the future and known that their city would be lying in ruins in just six years, would they have been so ecstatic?

[Igel]

26. I had friends that argued that the Puritans kept a Saturday sabbath.

And the OT holy days.

They cited chapter and verse. Scores and scores of references. They had a lock on it. Absolutely, positively, the Puritans were sabbath-keeping and observed holy days. The Puritans even quoted the same bits o' Bible that the 7th-day Xians quoted. What more proof is needed?

The problem was that a fallacy lay right there at the bottom of their thinking. The Puritans referred to Sunday as the "Sabbath", and to their days of religious observance as 'holy days'. They didn't bother to understand Puritan theology and use of the terms, so looking at the texts involved was misleading. And since it misled them to exactly where they wanted to be misled, they were happy with it.

If you take a mainstream reading of Xianity, you find that Hitler didn't like it. It was weak. It was pathetic. He infused it with Norse and Germanic (some real, some rather fictional) ideas. And he used the switch-the-definitions ruse, to make it appear more Xian than it was. For example, Xmas didn't celebrate the prince of peace's birth; it was Yule. Pointing out that mainstream Xianity had adopted pagan elements doesn't advance the argument: Hitler's infusion of pagan elements into Xianity wasn't accepted by most, or even always widely announced.

He also wasn't averse in doing what was necessary for acquiring power. Even Stalin worked with the Orthodox Church when it was in his interest, and Saddam Hussein sucked up to the Salafist Sunnis (with a truly massive mosque building/imam-hiring campaign, and his bizarre bloody Qur'an). Stalin loathed the Orthodox Church. But since getting and keeping power was his overriding principle, there was nothing contradictory about his working with it.

There's a famous picture that sums up much of Hitler: it shows either a hooker or girl leading a dissolute life, and a nun, with the caption that "Both are lost to the German race." He had as much in common with Lutheran or Catholic Xianity as Stalin did with Russian Orthodoxy, for much the same kinds of reasons. Don't let the similarity in verbiage between them and Xians or a willingness to associate with ecclesiasts mislead you.

[Khaotic]

35. Facism + Christianity

[RDU Socialist]

41. What is Facism?

is it some government of the visage? The government of the smile?

But I know what you're refering to, and am wondering if I said "Fascism + Islam" and had a swastika and a crescent would you be offended?

[RDU Socialist]

40. Hitler, like Stalin, hated religion

but was not above using it to justify their disgusting ideals. Stalin eliminated any church services in the Soviet Union for years before deciding to bring it back when his mass murdering of fellow Soviets took place. He would later use old school Christian distrust of Jews to advocate his bigotry against them.

Hitler was raised a Catholic, however he used German traditional Lutheranism to make the German people less disgusted with his anti Semitism. Hitler was an Aryan first, and created a cult of personality (exactly like Stalin did). He was slowly killing off religion in Germany so that those who supported him would think of him as God. Hitler was in essence a blasphemous Atheist (to those who subscribe to Christianity).

[NewJeffCT]

43. That would go against what was posted above

Somebody said that if you read the private writings & diaries of many top Nazis, that was not true... that they have have believed in Aryan superiority, but also were Christian.

[RDU Socialist]

47. the discussion pertains to Hitler

not "top Nazis". Adolph Hitler was creating a cult of personality which is completely against the teachings of any of the "Big Three" religions. Whether or not Goebbels, Goerring, Himmler, etc. were deifying Hitler is irrelevant as to what Hitler's intentions were.

[NewJeffCT]

56. I should have said...

Hitler & other top Nazis...

>However, Steigman-Gall has reached a very different conclusion by looking at the diaries, private writings and communications of the most influential Nazis, including Hitler. Far from deploring Christianity, many important Nazis felt that their racist policies were inspired by Protestant Christianity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(edited because I replied to the wrong post!)

[NewJeffCT]

51. well, I should have said

Hitler & other top Nazis...

>However, Steigman-Gall has reached a very different conclusion by looking at the diaries, private writings and communications of the most influential Nazis, including Hitler. Far from deploring Christianity, many important Nazis felt that their racist policies were inspired by Protestant Christianity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=656627&mesg_id=657275

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. The really appalling thing is the cooperation of the churches.

We hear about Bonhoeffer and Niemoeller, but they were the very rare exceptions. For the most part, the churches welcomed Hitler as their savior from Godless Bolshevism/Marxism. They cooperated with the Nazis for the most part, tho' the Catholics did fight back (somewhat) when they realized that the wanted to take their power.

I recommend "The Third Reich in Power" by Richard J. Evans

Hitler himself showed scant interest in religion of any kind but some of his underlings tried to transform Christianity into a sort of Germanic super religion. Notably Goebbels.

[Xithras]

50. Hitler capitalized on his Christian population, but he wasn't Christian.

He held many pagan beliefs and apparently saw Christianity as an invasive religion. He encouraged nordic paganism in the SS, he banned Christian references in wedding ceremonies (replacing them with "pagan" references to mother earth and father sky), he banned Christianity from schools and government institutions, and put the Bible on a list of books that weren't permitted to be in schools.

People tend to forget it nowadays, but much of Hitlers popularity in Germany was based on his heavily modified version of Germanic history. He told people that their Aryan ancestors had been one of the finest civilizations on the planet, and that they had been destroyed by allowing foreign influences to erase their original culture. His actions, according to him, were taken to "restore" the borders of the original Germanic homeland, to eliminate the influences that had destroyed their society, and to return the German people to their ancient glory. He did see restoring the original Germanic pagan religions as part of the plan, but apparently understood that it would take a very long time to achieve that goal.

Hitler used the churches simply because they were there and most Germans were Christian. If Germany had been a muslim nation, he'd have used mosques.

[onager]

54. Banned Xianity from schools, my ass

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. . . we need believing people."

(From Hitler's speech, April 26, 1933, during negotiations which led to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.)

[Dunedain]

65. He also said;

"You are either a Christian or a German, You cannot be both."
Same period as your speech.
I know they never banned christianity. It was a useful tool for the present time being.
I believe that an end point would be to supplant the church iconography and mythology,
and that all ends would be directed to bringing about that result.

[onager]

72. Source?

n/t

[Xithras]

76. He was as schizophrenic with this subject as anything else.

Hitler was very adept at using religion to his advantage when needed, and sometimes appeared to embrace it emphatically, but internally the Nazi party did everything possible to discourage Christianity. A lot of this division appears to originate in fears that the Nazi's would lose the support of their citizenry if they started attacking the religions that most Germans believed in. As Hitler himself once said, "If my mother were alive, she would definitely be a churchgoer, and I wouldn’t want to hinder her. On the contrary, you’ve got to respect the simple faith of the people". Still, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that, given more time, Christianity would have eventually been eradicated. A few examples:

The marching song for the Hitler Youth contained this line: "We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel, Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth."

SS officers were required to use pagan ceremonies for weddings and baptisms, and the SS actively discouraged Christianity among its officers...where it was referred to as the "Roman religion" and was called un-Germanic. The official Nazi Head Philosopher (their title for the official state religious head) was openly and loudly anti-Christian & anti-Jewish. The mans name was Alfred Rosenberg and he was executed later for his most disgusting act of "religious cleansing"...he's the one who came up with the idea of the Holocaust.

Hitler passed laws permitting abortion and sterilization over the fierce objections of the Catholic church and disbanded the Catholic Youth league.

Shortly after taking power, the Nazi's began running propoganda declaring that it was subversive to send your children to private schools, so many parents pulled their kids into public schools. When the churches responded by offering after-hours religious classes, Hitler passed a law prohibiting public schoolteachers from participating in those classes...even during their own free time.

Hitler at one point banned crucifixes from school classrooms (a common sight at the time), but had to rescind the ban in the face of massive public objection. His ban on using the Bible in classrooms as a primer was not rescinded, however, and neither was his order to take the bells from churches and melt them down into bullet casings.

There's a lot of debate today over what Hitlers actual views on religion were, but very few people believe that he was actually any kind of believing Christian. It's fairly certain that both Himmler and Goebbels were practicing neo-pagans and their influence certainly drove many of these decisions, but it's hard to tell where their influence stopped and Hitlers own opinions started.

[Inland]

55. There's a picture of Hitler exiting a church. That proves he was devout.

I know it sounds stupid, and it is, and yet it's been posted before and will probably be posted in this thread. It's not even a good picture of the most biographed man on the planet.

You can find a reasonable discussion on the matter here, from Cecil Adams of The Straight Dope, who summarizes as follows:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html


As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.

[RDU Socialist]

57. I was raised Catholic

I left a church on Christmas Eve, does that make me devout? Hell no. I'm a deist, but I still went to church out of respect for my uncle and aunt who asked if I would go to church with them.

[Inland]

58. Yeah, that was the sarcasm part.

If you read the rest, you'll see I denounce the concept.

Similarly, there's a cite of Hitler praising religious education in negotiations with the Vatican. I bet that HItler said good things to Stalin before signing the treaty he would later break, too, but that doesn't make him a catholic or a communist. It makes him a despicable person who would say whatever he needed to say at the moment.

[Disturbed]

60. So the "Gott ist mitt uns" on the SS belt buckles were...

merely for decorate purpose?

"God is with us."

[Inland]

62. No, they were Hitler's devout prayers. He blessed them himself

in the ancient christian ceremony of "Der Beltenbokkenblescheng."

Fact is, much of what Hitler did had a purpose, and it usually was a lie and a manipulation. I wouldn't put it past him or his people (since I have no reason to think Dolf designed the SS accessories) to even use belt buckles for that purpose.

[Katherine Brengle]

59. It sounds to me as if you two basically agree?

Your friend's response seems more on target, but yours is more or less the same, is it not?

[The Straight Story]

61. See the Straight Dope:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

[misternormal]

63. Before we start hanging swastikas and iron crosses...

on pagans, remember that there are dark sides to ALL religions.

It was not paganism that cause Hitler to be such a nut-job... Let us not forget the inquisition and the crusades...

[NewJeffCT]

67. that was part of my original response

Basically saying that when the person in the original LTTE was bashing Islam, they should remember that no religion is perfect.

[Texacrat]

64. Check Wikipedia

If you can't find something on there, well add it on.

Kidding. :D

[antigone382]

68. You can't really prove whether Hitler was or wasn't a Christian...

...so what does it matter? Only Hitler himself ever knew the legitimacy of his faith, and he sure ain't tellin' now. At best, we must rely on his own words and the accounts of those who knew him to ascertain some picture of his motivations and inspiration; and considering the unparalleled talent he had for manipulating his own image, how accurate can we really expect either of those resources to be? Personally, I have my doubts as to Hitler's genuine belief in anything but Hitler. Like I said, though, there's no way to prove definitively what he did or didn't believe, so why even try?

Nevertheless, the fact is that his use of Christian imagery and expressions was embraced by millions of German Christians. They in turn viewed their brutal actions and/or lack of action during the Holocaust as the only legitimate expression of their faith. In this way you can argue that members of the Christian faith are responsible to some extent for allowing the Holocaust to occur; however, it must also be remembered that there were millions of Christians who were repulsed by what Hitler was preaching, and who viewed their resistance to such brutality, and the mortal peril which such resistance put them in, as the only legitimate expression of their faith as well.

[Kellanved]

69. here is an interesting article about a relic of that notion:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,405922,00.html

A Protestant parish in Berlin has grabbed an ethical dilemma by the horns with an appeal for funds to save Germany's last Nazi era church. The building's interior is full of Third Reich symbols. The aim is to turn it into a place of remembrance.

The Third Reich collapsed 61 years ago but you wouldn't know it if you walk into the Martin Luther Memorial Church in Berlin. The stark entrance hall is lit by a black chandelier in the shape of an iron cross. The pulpit has a wooden carving of a muscular Jesus leading a helmeted Wehrmacht soldier and surrounded by an Aryan family. The baptismal font is guarded by a wooden statue of a stormtrooper from Adolf Hitler's paramilitary Sturmabteilung (SA) unit clutching his cap.
...

[Jack Rabbit]

70. Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic

However, this does not seem to figure in his ideology.

Hitler's anti-Semitism is racist, not sectarian. He largely left it to others to invoke the more vicious sectarian arguments against Jews.

[mmonk]

71. He used it like bush.

He gave speeches that used the term "Christian nation", had soldiers uniforms with the words God is with us, and he called Martin Luther the father of Germany. Also, the communist threat was a "godless" one and he used religious prejudice, of course, in the oppression of Jews.

[Theduckno2]

73. I tracked down my hard copies of an article in "Free Inquiry"

The article was in two parts: the Oct/Nov 2003 issue and the Dec03/Jan04 issue.

The author was Gregory S. Paul and the article was titled " The Great Scandal Christianity's Role in the Rise of Nazis"

The article has 64 footnotes so I am sure you would have plenty of source material.

I will try to get you a link.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=paul_23_4

EDIT: link provided to first half of article, hope it helps you.

[hexola]

74. Invoking religion NOT unique to Hitler!!! - Move along...

Not trying to stand up for Adolf - but this is one of the oldest plays in the book...

[PhilipShore]

75. Hitler was not a Christian...

but leading Christian leaders of the time supported hitler, such as the Pope. All Catholics were advised - that the had to join the Nazi Army - or they would be excommunicated from the church.

See Rolf Hochhuth's book, The Deputy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Hochhuth