DU - please wake up RE: Feingold's Censure

[jsamuel]

I am amazed at DU. After one of the best days in the US Senate in a very long time, some on DU want to be contrarians. Well, I just couldn't stand to let these things fly by.

STOP!

What are you saying?


We should be impeaching, not censuring:
* Why not both?
* Senators cannot impeach, it must be started in the house.
* Feingold said he supports impeachment in his speech (if you even listened to it).

If censuring fails, it will hurt the possibility for impeachment:
* Says who? What basis do you have for this?
* Censuring Bush now puts the spotlight on the President of the United States breaking the law in defiance of the Legislative and Judicial branches.
* Censuring is an OFFICIAL act (not just some appearance on hardball) that puts impeachment in the public mind.

If we are going to censure Bush, it should be for the Iraq War:
* People are ALWAYS complaining about how Democrats muddy up simple issues.
* The Iraq War is an extremely complex issue, if only in the minds of the US public.
* Wiretaps are 300% easier to actually PROVE because we already know they did it.
* Impeachment because of the Iraq war would require an investigation of "what Bush thought" - not easily prosecuted for a sitting President.
* Censuring Bush on an array of issues would probably water down the main thrust of Feingold's argument, accountability for breaking the law.
* If you really want to work the Iraq War into this, they were spying on americans simply for being against the Iraq War.

Conyers was all over this before, I don't like Feingold for intruding on Conyers turf.
* What the heck is wrong with you?
* There is no "territory" here.
* Every person is a plus.
* Feingold never ever ever ever said that Conyers was wrong/stupid or anything of that sort and mentioned that impeachment must start in the house.

Feingold is just doing this so he can look good for a presidential run.
* Was he just trying to look good for 2004 when he was the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act?
* Why would you not like someone who stands up for the right issues?


Feingold said two things on the senate floor yesterday that gave me tingles, like I have been tense for the past 5 years and I finally had some release:

- "This President exploited the climate of anxiety after September 11, 2001." (Refers to both the Patriot Act and the Iraq War - blaming congress as well, but congress gave no authority to do these wiretaps)

- "I'll tell you what is a terrible signal. That we're so weak in response to this terrorist threat, that we're going to let the President of the United States break the law of this nation and not do anything about it. Now that's a victory for the terrorists. That we won't even stand up for our system of government, because everybody has to be afraid to mention that this President broke the law."

[keepthemhonest]

I am for anything that makes them look bad and get their just desserts

I am with you on this.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

2. Call your Senators and demand an answer to this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2512789&mesg_id=2512789

NGU.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. I have seen no one object to censure here at DU.

[xultar]

4. I did ask though, how can we expect unity in the senate when we

here @ DU can't agree to unify to ignore the msm bullshit on 2k8 and focus on 2k6.

[Hutzpa]

19. Well Said Xultar......

something needs to be done about trolls, they wear good disguises too.

[ClassWarrior]

5. I've seen plenty.

NGU.

[mzmolly]

6. Marvelous post.

:toast:

[Blaze Diem]

7. Beautiful..Thank You

Applause and support to anyone who speaks the truth anymore...
And the spoken truth about Bush, especially said openly on the Senate floor, goes on record, and voices the concerns of millions.
That I support wholeheartedly.
I'll decide who I vote for Pres in 2008 when the time comes..IF it comes.
What Feingold said, needed to be said.
That's what I support..wish more had the balls to follow his lead.

Thanks
Blaze

[stillrockin]

8. I am with you 100%

I am angry that the Dems in the Senate are not standing behind him.

[WiseButAngrySara]

46. I am INFURIATED at the cowards! Shame on them! ....n/t

[blm]

9. And there are those of us FOR censure by the senate, understanding that it

has been offered in the past as an ALTERNATIVE to impeachment, and who worried when listening to Feingold yesterday on MSNBC say that censure was an appropriate remedy while impeachment was radical. In my view that was pre-judging the impeachment case that has been gathering strength in Congress.

I contend that Feingold may have misspoken and am still waiting to hear and confirm that he misspoke.

It is not a slap against censure to wish that Feingold had consulted with other senators on such a dramatic move. Was he not consulted on Alito filibuster?

Let's assume for argument's sake that Dems by nature follow rules and process, while it's Republicans' nature to violate or evade process.

[EFerrari]

15. In his speech yesterday, he said the Senate has to consider

the range of choices, including impeachment. He said censure should be the minimum they do. Fyi.

[blm]

29. I understand what he said before and after, but does he understand that he

misspoke when he was interviewed on MSNBC?

In my view, this is a serious point that needs clarifying. How does it assist the impeachment cause when you offer censure as appropriate remedy while impeachment is the more radical measure?

[EFerrari]

33. You may be right but in my mind, the text that went into

the Record should be given more weight than off the cuff remarks to the corporate media. :)

[blm]

35. Well, that's why I give him the benefit of the doubt and support censure

fully until I hear otherwise. But, it sure did hurt my ears to hear it after all the petitioning for impeachment.

[EFerrari]

37. I know. I signed up at VoteToImpeach YEARS AGO. n/t

[jwirr]

10. You are correct. All attempts to bring truth to light are welcome.

Each sends it own ripple into the pond to help create the wave. Sooner or late the wave will become a tidal wave and wash the * bunch out to sea.

[file83]

28. The more ASSAULTS we have going against Bush at the SAME time

THE BETTER!!

We can't be "safe" about this or "careful" about this. We have to be volleying everything we've got at these bastards until we WIN and then continue. This is a FIGHT for the future of our country, the future of the U.S. Constitution - the future of our CHILDREN. We must FIGHT tooth and nail against these fascist bastards. NEVER stop. Never stop.

[jwirr]

30. Amen

[PATRICK]

11. Mirroring the Democrats gymnastics

in our own way goes to show how frustrating it all is. There ARE some high Dems who never want to hold the Chimp to account because he is too embedded in the Presidency and the myths- and false political assumptions. There are many more trying to avoid the useless legislative traps like the quick vote on the Murtha resolution and other high handed, media supported gimmicks while trying to let Feingold get it out into the air. So are some really opposing Feingold or letting him front a powerless challenge? probably both.

That is the mess the party leadership is in. Lord knows we want or are prepared for some winning fusion to make a solid opposition party at least. But that isn't happening there. So it isn't surprising that it isn't happening here either. I don't think there is expectation of legislative success in this situation,
but the same arguments, I might add, have been made constantly when the Dems HAD all or part of the real power to make a difference. Apparently many think they have something to lose which is extraordinary considering their lazy approach to vote fraud, truculent support for Dean grassroots and citizen, and donations and their straight man relationship to a mocking, hostile farce of a national media. Some mystical statistical graph is supposed to guarantee them some supernatural results in November and real actions and words disturb the tea leaves.

That impression is created. That creates a mirror response here with the same irritation and shattered hopes one had trying to support Daschle and all the other wise strategists. wee have had tingles from Byrd, Murtha, Reid, etc. etc. When things get black and white it would be nice for a change to have some rational party unity behind the proper strong response- powerless though it be and fraught with traps now that countless failures supposedly have our backs against the wall. But there's the rub. As in every other fraud blighted election year the same failed strategists are urging caution, quiet and anti-populism even as the heart of the people has moved far ahead of where the national mind is allowed- in silence- to remain in fog.

[magellan]

12. Hear, hear!

There is no wrong time for censure except "too late".

There is no conflict with future impeachment proceedings unless the Dems fail to stand united NOW.

Feingold is the man of the hour, standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution. I don't care why he's the one who chose to do this, only that it's past time SOMEBODY did!!

[gordianot]

13. At this point I am all for someone to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING!

[spotbird]

14. When is the vote?

Is there a place to go for a quick update of the status?

[jsamuel]

16. good question!

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Spoke to both of my Democratic Senators' offices this morning.

Sen. Lincoln has been discussing what to do with her staff. She wants to take action, but is concerned because censure would only be the second in history. I told the staffer to rephrase it, do you support censure or do you support the criminal activity? He liked it and said he would tell her my comments....I also said I'd really like impeachment, arrest, and conviction more!

Pryor office said he hasn't made any statement. I told her what I expected...with only 1/3 of the population supporting Chimpy, it was time to call people's attention to this violation of law via the censure.

[radio4progressives]

20. Excellent Report ... thanks..

:applause:

[spuddonna]

23. That's EXCELLENT!!!

What a great way of simplifying it down to the guts of the issue: do you support the rule of law or criminality? It is really very simple...

I called my two senators in WA and they hadn't made a decision yesterday. Think I'll call again today... and use your words, if you don't mind! :hi:

[sinkingfeeling]

27. Be my guess, but I won't claim that it's my idea. Just that the opposite

of calling the idiot on it is condoning his actions.

[Taverner]

18. Impeachment, Censure, Hell I'm for it all....

Any and every way to prod Bushie with a stick is fine by me.

I know neither will pass, but the more this gets in the MSM and gets talked about, the more this hurts him and the GOP.

[Hutzpa]

21. Truth is they

(the GOP) don't know how to respond to this censure, they only have one thing going for them and thats divided Democrats, if only our Dem leaders can come together this will gather momentum in a jiffy.

I must hard I'm for whatever works.....censure and impeachment.

[radio4progressives]

22. I noticed that Brazile made a statement encouraging Dems to embrace

Feingold's Censure..

In another thread, a smart DU member suggested FRAMING the issue when we call the Senators - "Do you support Censure, or do you support Criminal Activity?"

I called my Senators yesterday and I called againg today, but I also called Senator Reid's office and reported back in that other thread mentioned above. I encourage all to call Senator Reid's office in addition to your own Senator's because it's his job to pull everyone in line.

His Washington DC number is: 202-224-3542

[jsamuel]

24. Calling is great! Everyone should do!

Mine are Pryor/Lincoln!

[berni_mccoy]

25. I had only objected to Censure when I heard (incorrectly) that Feingold

was not supportive of impeachment. Once I heard that, I agreed that the move to Censure was good.

[blm]

31. Sorry, but it was Feingold who made it confusing in his MSNBC interview.

You don't say your measure is an appropriate remedy and label as radical the other remedy of impeachment in the same answer.

[jsamuel]

32. "radical" was the wrong word to use

I think what he was saying is that we do still have some investigating to do before calling for impeachment and doing so before the investigation would be "radical". But I think a better word would have been "premature".

[blm]

34. Premature for a senator to judge impeachment, yes. Radical measure, no.

I repeat - Feingold may have misspoken, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and support censure fully until I hear otherwise.

[stellanoir]

26. prediction. . .

jsamuel has a future in not only herding cats but neutralizing circular firing squads as well.

great post.

edit for silly typo

[ms liberty]

36. K&R - You are 100% correct...

This is how the beginning of the end of the *co administration looks like, folks. It won't explode with everyone overnight suddenly jumping on the band wagon. It WILL begin as it has begun - with more people every day, every week, talking about impeachment; with the media mentioning it more and more until it builds into the only subject you hear anyone talk about. There is no down side to this Feingold resolution - it's just a part of the beginning. Our job now is to make sure the flames stay fanned, to keep on informing every person we can about the truth, to keep pressing for answers from the media and our politicians. We have to keep the pressure on them - no easing up now - NO MERCY.

Think of the snowball growing to an avalanche - that would be an appropriate analogy for what is beginning to happen. The snowball is pretty small at the beginning...but a killer at the end

We don't have time for pettiness, turf wars and egos here - there's too much at stake for that crap.

Excellent post, jsamuel - this needed to be said!

[cal04]

38. Conyers : Senator Feingold Has Just Joined Me Calling for Censure

Senator Feingold Has Just Joined Me Calling for Censure

On ABC's This week with George Stephanopolous, Senator Russell Feingold has just joined my call for censure of the President. Many of you remember that I introduced a resolution, House Resolution 637, last December to censure the President at the same time I introduced House Resolution 635 to investigate the President's Administration for possible impeachable offenses. The Senator announced on the show that he planned to introduce his bill at the beginning of the week.

As you know, the Senate tends to move much more slowly on issues such as these. While Senator Feingold has not come to the same position as I have - calling for a special committee to investigate impeachable offenses - he didn't rule it out. And when asked, he didn't rule out pressing for impeachment. It is a good sign that there are others catching up with us in the call for accountability for this White House. While some are impatient for immediate action, we need to understand that pursuing this in a measured fashion will give us the best chance of success. The emergence of Senator Feingold in taking this stand is a broad and positive step toward our ultimate goal.

[BREMPRO]

39. link to Move-On petition in support of Censure..

Yesterday, Senator Russ Feingold introduced a resolution to censure President Bush for breaking the law by illegally wiretapping American citizens.

Censuring a sitting president is serious business. But when the president misleads the public and Congress while willfully and repeatedly breaking the law, there must be consequences—that's how the law works for everybody else.

While most politicians sat back and weighed the political pros and cons of holding the president accountable, Senator Feingold stuck his neck out and did it. Now it's up to us to show broad public support. Can you sign our petition asking Congress to join the call for censure?

http://political.moveon.org/censure?id=7035-4581090-mpV_Fmv0rMwpVmIiXnsYYQ&t=2

[RazzleDazzle]

40. good post

I have to admit to not being overly excited by what Feingold is doing, but I AM overly excited that he's getting so little support by other Senators. Fie on them.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

41. Well summarized. I can't fathom the people who insist on...

... waiting until the planets align before attacking or
only attacking on one front or
"waiting until the iron is hot" or
"keeping their powder dry" "for a rainy day" "somewhere over the rainbow".

36% approval for Bush on a conservative survey and falling.
Cheney with less approval than OJ Simpson during the murderer's trial. OJ in this case.
Bush admitting to breaking the law re: wiretapping.
A weakened GOP leadership.
Dissent in the GOP ranks as they see their power base disintegrating in 2006.
The Sword of Abramov dangling over their heads ("That ain't no crime").
etc. etc. etc.

If not now, when? Attack them on all sides. Keep them off-balance. Grow a pair (both genders). Finish them.

[FogerRox]

42. KNR 4 Russ

[IsIt1984Yet]

43. Thanks for this post.

Go Russ!! :)

[AuntiBush]

44. Finegold has my Full Support!

:kick:

[Old and In the Way]

45. Damn straight....Feingold has started the process.......

We won't get the Republican Syndicate to support this, but they'll have to explain to their constituents why it is OK for a this selected pResident to illegally spy on Americans.

[WiseButAngrySara]

47. Great Post. K & R. ....n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

48. this passion is dangerous...

it's going to cause some on our side facial tics of nervousness. and that will cause cracks in our beautifully caked-on powder. and spilt powder so distresses the seamless look of our delicate tutus. think of the appearances we must upkeep.

these things must be nuanced and triangulated, lest the least draft or twitch ruin our entire byzantine master plan. you do know all this passivity and acquiescence is part of the grand master plan, right? that it will save us all in one fell swoop in 2008, right? it is the latest wisdom from our court astrolo--, er, political consultants.

so come now, you don't want to lose your invitation to the latest beltway gala, do you now? so let these perturbing flames snuff out by following the example of our insouciant poise. rome may burn, though not forever, so let us hark to the violin virtuoso...