Anybody see the A&E documentary on Polygomy?

[cantstandbush]

Good grief. These people are breaking the law, some are pedofiles, and a lot are guilty of incest and they are still walking around free. I don't get it. The governor and senator say it's difficult to arrest these people unless the women complain. WTF? If a man is caught in Maryland having sex with his 15-year old daughter, I know damn well he'd be arrested. Are these Mormans totally insane or is it the government that allows them to get away with it? People who believe smoking pot is part of their religion get arrested but these sex maniacs are free to do what they want in the name of religion? Help, somebody.

[LynneSin]

1. Have you seen "Big Love" on HBO

it's all about what you just described. Man with three wives and his father-in-law (wife #2) just married a 14-year-old girl.

I thought it was far-fetched but HBO put this disclaimer at the end of their show:

According to a joint report issued by the Utah and Arizona Attorney General's Offices, July 2005, "pproximately 20,000 to 40,000 or more people currently practice polygamy in the United States." The Mormon Church officially banned the practice of polygamy in 1890.

I guess the people that still do this kinda live away from mainstream public except the lead in this movie is trying to do just that and have three wives. The show was very well done but it freaked me out to see Harry Dean Stanton with his 14 year old bride (played by the girl from "The Ring")

[helderheid]

16. They mostly live on the "Arizona Strip" on the border of Utah and AZ -

it's quite remote:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy4.html

http://www.childbrides.org/news_cops_PNT_Rogue_cops.html

[Hamlette]

90. there is a large community on the "Arizona Strip" but they are all over

I've lived in Utah all my life. There are notorious groups/compounds/houses all over the state. And you see 'em around town. You can tell them by the hair styles and dress of the women (and the size of the families).

Prosecutions don't go well around here. A few years ago the prosecutor for Utah County prosecutoed a polygamist named Tom Green for statutory rape (one of his wives had his child at age 14) and criminal non support 9the government had paid him over $600,000 over 10 years, a figure which does not include Medicaid, which they were on. Tom had been going on national talk shows saying the life style was great and he took no money from the government. He baited us into prosecution. The prosecutor was the governor's brother. He was successful and Green was sentenced and sent to prison. The prosecutor was defeated at the next election. Green had had a total of 10 wives, five at a time (the older group which had left him, and the young crop. He had 30 kids by the young crop. It's the only case I can talk about because it went public when he was put on trial. Trust me, there are lots of other "families" just like Tom Green's. I work in the welfare office. It always presents issues.)

The trial got some national attention. When the trail was going on I met with a group of lawyers from all over the country on an unrelated issue. I asked them what they thought of the Green trial, they said, to a man (yeah, all men) that the state should have left him alone. He wasn't hurting anyone. Freedom of religion. Blah blah. (Gay marriage was not an issue at the time but if I'd asked them about that, my bet is they would have said "ick, no they shouldn't be allowed to get married." But a man impregnating a 13 year old girl and living off welfare was okay.)

In the 50s the Arizona governor arrested a bunch of them. He was defeated for reelection.

Americans don't know they are supporting this otherwise unsupportable lifestyle with tax dollars and they don't know marriages are arranged sometimes with very young girls and that boys are kicked out on the street at a young age ("lost boys" they are called here).

[fishwax]

46. I was irritated at how they portrayed that aspect. Not stark enough.

Perhaps it was the fact that they focused on the happy suburban polygamists that threw me off, because, even though I was glad they at least acknowledged the existence of a potentially unhappy polygamy, it was still rather softly told. I don't think women who escape those communities (like Paxton's "first wife" and one of his other wives) generally go back to visit, and the reality for women (christ, for girls, since some are married off to uncles or other powerful men at the ripe old age of thirteen or so) is not so sunny as depicted in that show.

It's not great for young boys, either. Since men are encouraged/expected to have more than one wife, they have to find some way to tilt community numbers. Since it isn't always easy to add females (surprise, recruiting can be a tough sell) the only alternative is to reduce the number of males, and so boys from families that don't have power or prestige are sometimes simply expelled from the community. Fourteen year olds who, as punishment for some real, imagined, or created offense, are driven to another town, dropped off, and told they're no longer welcome in their own family. The reality of these communities is plenty fucking ugly.

That said, I'm not sure how I felt about the show overall. It started out slow, but got better by the end, and I'll probably give it another chance next week. I'm just worried that they'll gloss over some of the harsher realities. :/

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

101. I found the scenes that they did in the compound very compelling..

This is an aspect of American life that I have never really thought of. I also thought, from an uneducated eye, that they captured the sheer poverty and backwardness of the place.

As to his first wife, it was mentioned that she was from Colorado and didn't understand the compound's lifestyle. I gathered she was from at least a middle class monogamous Mormon family.

[fishwax]

109. I thought that was his third wife

His first wife was very adamant about not wanting to go back, and at one point said something along the lines of "when we left and said we'd never go back, I meant it."

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. No, it was his first. The reason why she hated it so is because it was

so alien to what she grew up with. As to her being there before, I would think she had been there often as she had been married to him for many years. The second wife had remarked about it snidely when they were either getting into the SUV or on the way to the compound.

[Cleita]

62. I think what they are building up to is that the husband and his

first wife wanted to escape the community but he just couldn't leave his other two wives and four children by them behind. So they all have moved to an outside area close to Salt Lake. It's possible to have a compound with three houses out there. I know I have been through there many times. Also, I was struck by the sizes of these houses, much larger than ordinary middle class family homes in other states.

I was more interested in the conversations the teenagers were having in the fast food joint, no not the one about sex, but the one about religion. One thing that was always strange and uncomfortable for me in Utah was how people talked about religion in casual conversations. Whether it was with the grocery checker or a bank teller, it was always there.

[central scrutinizer]

2. Read "Under the Banner of Heaven"

by Jon Krakauer. These people become very violent if crossed.

[Marnieworld]

3. I saw it. It was very good.

What really pissed me off is that these people are so righteous about are laws being against their religious freedom so they actively disobey the law that they disagree with. But then they have no problem surviving off of the welfare system of the very government they disagree with. If you want to live like you aren't American then don't benefit from the system.

It's so sick. They hide behind religion but it's just a fetish cult. These men, always men, get off on the harem and the power they have over them. They constantly say that all women are equal with eachother as if that makes it ok. Yes but unless all of the women can take multiple husbands then they aren't equal with the men. No one will stand up for the women and girls. It's insane that this is happening right here and now in the USA. And it continues unabated.

I tried to watch that HBO show. I did once but never again. It's not cute or funny or sexy. Even if that marriage is not within the cult or is more modern the women still suffer from the blatant infidelity. It just seems like unfair treatment.

[AllegroRondo]

6. And young men are often expelled from these camps

to remove competition for wives.

[cantstandbush]

13. Thanks for posting about the welfare that these slime live off of.

That was one of the things that pissed me off too. They probably malign all other welfare folks who actually need the money to survive. This is a colony of strapping, oversexed, healthy males fully able to hold jobs but because they choose to live where they do and the way they do there isn't much business or work opportunities because they own all the land and mom&pop stores. It was a shameful display of how this nation can rationalize anything as long as you are considered to be in the right class, race, and political group. Try this is Philadelphia (like MOVE) and you get firebombed from the air.

[bowens43]

4. How about those who are NOT

involved with incest or pedophilia? Should they also be prohibited from entering into any type of marraige they choose?

[brmdp3123]

5. Yes, they should.

[Radio_Guy]

110. That's the argument repukes use against gay marriage

As long as it isn't incest or pedophilia, what business is it if two men and one woman, or two women and one man want to be married to each other? I wouldn't want two wives, but who am I to tell my next door neighbor if he can have two wives or not?

[mntleo2]

7. And How "Bout Women Having Several Husbands?

I am semi-serious here.

If men have more than one wife, perhaps a woman can have several husbands so they can adequately support existing children. Since men make better wages than women, a few better wage earners would help a great deal such as in affording a home, college, a decent secondary education, and all the other amenities that one needs to raise kids. One child costs around a million dollars to raise so a woman needs at least that in order to make sure they can survive in this country...

At any rate, I could use at least a couple husbands myself since two wages is no longer feasable anyway and I could use a little variety in my life too... :evilgrin:

Cat In Seattle

[julialnyc]

8. I couldn't handle more than my one husband

I love him to death, but I couldn't handle another man and his testosterone (he'd probably say the same thing about me being enough of a handful)

Plus I don't think that men would be as "okay" with the revolving beds (nor would I...... One's enough for me!)

[Crowdance]

10. Think of all the home repairs/projects that would get done!

I joke. Not really...

[Sequoia]

34. Right, they'd be fighting for the remote

and YOU would have to go cook dinner. Not fun.

[Crowdance]

60. Good point.

In truth, Mr. Crowdance is one in a million. I'd probably lose patience with the other guy.

[mntleo2]

88. Ain't that the truth!

But perhaps with that many husbands, maybe you could just give them their own TVs and hire a cook. I have 3 sons and they got their own TVs and VOILA! Instant peace!!! The husbands would not have much time to watch TV anyways, they would be too busy fixing the car, mowing the lawn, and repairing the toilet they keep breaking.

LOL!

Cat In Seattle

[peacebaby3]

11. That's called polyandry. I'm not sure if it really exists anywhere anymore

but it was practiced in Africa and I believe in India and maybe a few other countries in much earlier times. In Africa many nations believed it was a good idea for a child to have more than one father.

As far as I know, there has never been a case of polyandry in the US.

[AlienGirl]

74. Not legally, but I know a polyandrous triple

Two men, one woman, and their kids. The arrangement is not legal, of course, but polyandry does in fact happen.

Tucker

[Maru Kitteh]

80. Do they all share the same household? Did the men know each other?

I spent a good deal of time in sociology so I find this FASCINATING.

I don't give a spit about personally identifying info BUT

I'd love to know

Age of the female now and at the beginning of the arrangement
Her level of education

Age and relation of the males if any to each other
Levels of the males education

This is a RARE arrangement.

I hope you respond, and thanks in advance for whatever you choose to tell us.
:popcorn:

[AlienGirl]

85. They share a household (a gorgeous big house!)

The woman's about my age (30s), the men are a little older(40s and 60s). All are college-educated.

I don't know anything about the beginning of their relationship, because I've only ever known them together.

The poly families I've known have almost always been several men with several women. They are usually very private people because of social disapproval and fears of losing children or being harmed in their career. I'm sure a sociologist could post on a poly website looking for polyandrous families and get plenty of respondents, albeit with self-selection bias up the yingyang.

Tucker

[peacebaby3]

112. True. Sorry, I should have said legally in the US. I would imagine it

would be much rarer than polygamy in the US though. Does anyone have any statistics regarding the issue?

[trixie]

47. The movie "Me, You, Them"

Is about a women with three husbands. She picks each one for a different reason. Brazilian.

[mnmoderatedem]

121. well then you can forget about

EVER having the toilet seat down. :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

126. I raise chickens

(or I used to) and you just can't have two roosters in the henhouse. They spend all their time butting up against each other with their chest out. And they crow when a cloud crosses the sun, freaked out that it might be a hawk and they want to make sure they warn the hens first. And eventually they nip all the feathers out of each other's tails, and then one day you find one of them dead.

[cantstandbush]

14. Polygymy is against the law in this country. Period.

If you are going to enforce laws against same-sex marriages enforce the laws against polygymy also. What about the children who have to suffer all kinds of brainwashing and abuses?

[Bunny]

20. I think the technicality here is that they really aren't legally married

to anyone other than their first wife. All subsequent "wives" are not recognized as legal, so they aren't really practicing polygamy. I think that is how they are able to collect welfare benefits also. Each "wife" and her offspring are considered a separate household.

[jmm]

39. Or many will divorce the first wife as soon as the marry a teenager

and basically keep on divorcing and remarrying so they can "legally" be with their youngest bride.

[Syncronaut Seven]

32. I don't fear for them because of polygamy

I fear for them because of their fundamentalist beliefs.

What adults in private do of their own volition is no business of mine.

I'll resist the urge to be reactionary, my wives would hold me to account. ;-)

[Syncronaut Seven]

79. What about the children who have to suffer all kinds of brainwashing

I would ask the same about the Southern Babtists, or the Catholics.

Law is a deluded and twisted vehicle thrust apon us by the powerfull at the end of a gun.

My law:

Speak truth to power, always.

Defend the weak.

Do no harm.

[teenagebambam]

9. At least they're not gay. Then we'd REALLY have to crack down

[triguy46]

22. boy, aint that the truth

:sarcasm:

[China_cat]

12. I've seen it and it turns my stomach,

BUT...the fact is that the federal government's disregard of the first amendment when it came to allowing Utah into the union IS the cause of the majority of the abuse seen here. Utah was told that they could not have statehood unless they outlawed polygamy which was definitely a tenet of their religion.

If the Mormons would have been allowed to retain their full religious rights (much as native americans are allowed hallucinogenic rituals but others aren't), the practice of polygamy wouldn't have been driven underground and into isolated communities where the gene pool is barely wading depth today. Abuses would have been easier to deal with and I do believe that the church itself would have been able to deal better with the issue. Today the mainstream LDS just says that the practioners 'aren't true Mormons' and there's nothing they can do about it. Nothing they will do about it except condemn it...in public.

[cantstandbush]

15. We cut off women from welfare after a certain number of children.

Why can't these freaks be cut off from welfare after one wife?

[bryant69]

19. Members of the Mormon faith who practice pologamy are excommunicated

Kicked out of the church. That's official church policy - and it's generally followed (individual local leaders may make inappropriate decisions). I don't know what more you expect the LDS Church to do beyond that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[triguy46]

23. And it is completely ignored and not prosecuted in Utah...

so this is just a case of stating a moral high ground, turning your back, and being smug. It is de facto endorsed due to the lack of prosecution. It could be stopped if the mormon controlled state government chose, lord knows they can be heavy handed and intrusive when they decide its in their best interest. They have never been reluctant to change theological interpretation, call up down, or other contortions as a guise to keeping prying eyes away.

[bryant69]

25. So you are upset with the state government?

And local law enforcement? Which you claim are controlled by the Mormon Church?

OK. I guess there's no point in arguing with that sort of statement. Many people in Utah are Mormons, and so many officials are Mormons. I obviously can't prove that the church isn't reaching down and forcing them to turn a blind eye, so I won't bother trying.

Bryant

[triguy46]

29. Your choice, the facts are apparant

In rural Utah, especially in southern utah, polygamist communities abound. IMHO, the state is controlled by the Mormons, elected for sure, but mormons nonetheless.

[bryant69]

37. Maybe something should be done about those Mormons, eh?

[Maru Kitteh]

78. Try not to view this through the narrow band of experience but rather

through the more illuminative prism of history. It has happened many times in this country and others where a group of people, religious, ethnic or otherwise bound to one another have settled in an area in numbers as a way to flee perceived and real persecution in order to feel the safety of numbers. The resulting isolation, combined with fierce loyalty to the group is just the kind of fertile petri dish which feeds the most aggressive and least desirable culture in dark and hidden places.

It's happened in the wild west societies and "law".
It's happened in the Amish.
It's happened to the American Catholics with the abuse scandals.
It happened to the Chinese railroad workers.
It happened to the Irish.
It happened to the Italians.

Horrendous abuses are happening under the guise of religion in the publicly chastised but wink and nod tolerated dark corners of the LDS church. The "poor me" and "poor us" defense has been used to rally the larger community and these abuses are being covered up as a result.

If the LDS church wants acceptance it should quit making excuses and pretending - just like the Catholic hierarchy in the US should quit pretending it did not violate itself by consent with the priest's scandals.

[bryant69]

107. I think the difference is that the Priests guilty of those crimes

were part of the hierarchy. People who choose to practice polygamy are excommunicated from the church.

This argument is a lot like "Look, them Muslims could stop terrorism if they wanted to - so that proves all muslims are our enemies."

Bryant

[China_cat]

26. Turning in the locations of some of the worst

'families' would be a good start. And please don't tell me that the church doesn't know where they are.

But my main thing is that if their constitutional rights hadn't been violated in order to obtain statehood, the church WOULD be able to do a lot more.

[fishwax]

49. that doesn't mean they *would* do a lot more

though you're argument that they would be able to is compelling.

I'm not sure I buy the analogy with psychedelics, though, since that is a religious practice that doesn't hurt anybody or involve the oppression of others, as polygamy often does. The fact that the LDS would be pretty much in charge of the new state also changed the equation. If a religious organization held slavery to be a chief tenet of their faith, they wouldn't be able to start their own state either. Granted, slavery is not a perfect analogy either, although in polygamy as practiced in some of these communities it is not an absurd comparison.

[China_cat]

103. If polygamy wasn't driven into

such secrecy, the power would not be concentrated in so small a group and the incentive for abuse would be much, much lower. With acceptance at the minimum, it would be less likely that girls would be forced into sex or marriages they weren't ready for or wanted because the numbers of eligible females would a lot higher, even from outside the birthright religious community. There will always be converts to any religion, especially where love is involved.

My analogy with hallucinogens was not made as to the comparative damage they can do but as to the legality and the consequences of criminalization of use. You rarely find a native american selling their sacred herbs in a back alley, for instance, or using them just to party.

[Cleita]

56. My opinion of Utah, evertime I had to spend some time there,

is that it operates as a theocracy and to me it's in violation of the constitutional separation of church and state. Of course now we are getting close to churches running all of us like the Mormons rule Utah it may not seem so outrageous anymore.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

17. The fundies scream about illegal immigrants what about illegal polygamist

What a bunch of hypocrates. Should we call them illegals too. The reason they tolerate them is because they vote the same way & they are afraid the immigrants will vote with the dems. We basically have cults that live by their own rules in defiance to the laws of the state. If they were a pot-smoking cult as well arrests would be certain.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

127. Fundies tolerate polygamy?

[cantstandbush]

18. Oh, yeah, one more thing...Mormons are 99% Republican! n/t

[bryant69]

27. Can I have a source on that 99% figure please?

I mean I know the number is high - but that seems extreme.

Unless, of course, you are just pulling numbers out of your ass.

[cantstandbush]

40. Why do I need a source. Does Bush give sources? Trust me.

I don't know a Mormon who is not Republican and I know about 1200 of them from some business dealings. I think that sample meets Gallop's criteria.

[bryant69]

44. Ah - so you are comparing yourself to Bush?

In what other ways are you like him?

Anyway I know many Mormons, the majority of which are Republican - but I know several Liberal Mormons as well.

Bryant

[fishwax]

50. I know several Mormons who are Democrats

They are in the minority, to be sure, but far from non-existent.

[OKNancy]

65. As do I, and they are even Oklahomans

LDS, Okies, and Democrats ( the wife is a bank VP going to law school at night while hubby takes care of the kids)

[fishwax]

87. i knew a few LDS okie dems as well

One guy in particular whom I worked with, who was a great dem, a devout mormon and also a pretty damn good guy. I think he definitely felt unusual with respect to the politics of his fellow churchmates, but not ever entirely alone, and assured me that there was a solid underground of Dems in Oklahoma's mormon communities. :)

[Maru Kitteh]

66. But few enough to be statistically insignificant, that's for sure

kindaofa bitch but facts is facts.

• The clear link between the Republican Party and LDS voters continues, and perhaps is even stronger.
Jones' survey shows that among 9,442 voters Nov. 2 who said they are members of the LDS Church, 70 percent said they are Republicans. Only 9 percent of the LDS voters said they are Democrats; while 17 percent said they are political independents.
Nine percent of Mormons saying they are Democrats — that's a tough number.


http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595106380,00.html

[fishwax]

86. I never claimed huge numbers

I was simply disagreeing with the one percent left over from the other posters "99 percent are repubs" comment.

Also, while I wouldn't claim there are huge percentages of mormons overall, I'm fairly certain that the numbers of mormon dems overall are higher than the number of mormon dems in utah, which is the subject of that poll.

[Punkingal]

72. Well, guess what?

Harry Reid, our Democratic Senate Minority Leader is a Mormon.

[Syncronaut Seven]

81. Yea, I knew that. So is better than half the FBI.

:scared:

[Punkingal]

83. I live in Nevada part of the time,

And the saying there is Harry is a Mormon first, a Democrat second.

[Yupster]

104. Is Harry Reid a Mormon?

I thought I read that somewhere?

[Broken_Hero]

141. My parents are both mormon...

and technically i'm still enrolled in the mormon church, i'm just inactive, and all three of us are Dems....;)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

102. Senator Harry Reid is a Mormon and I believe that Rep. Tom Lantro

of California is one, or his wife is one.

[triguy46]

123. Probably more accurately, they would attest their faith...

over any political affiliation. Mormons have never embraced the government except to the extent that it was expedient. The issue of polygomy was "solved" because they finally figured out that if they didn't renounce it, the Federal government was going to move in and take control of the state. Their obsession with compliance to the rule of the Federal govt is well described in "Blood of the Prophets." It was an evolving revelation that it became an official no-no. that said, there has been a dearth of prosecutions for polygamy in Utah. Whether you agree with it or not, it is the law. It would be so much easier if they wouldn't get "married." i.e. scorn the sacriligious laws of Utah/US and just live as one big family. No wedding license, no polygomy.

[triguy46]

21. Was way scary in a Stepford kind of way.

[Finder]

24. Crimes are not allowed in the name of religion...

and not all polygamists break laws regarding incest and such. Check out this thread from yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x644314

You are definitely in the majority regarding strict marriage/family definitions.

[MoonRiver]

28. I saw it. One of the creepiest shows I've ever watched.

Just :wtf: is going on in Utah?? Are those people insane, OR WHAT???

[Xithras]

30. I have no problem with polygamy/polyamory.

The problem today is simply that polygamy is illegal in the US, so only criminals and whackjobs practice it openly. I know two polyamorous families personally, and neither is degrading, pedophilic, or incestuous. They're also atheists, so religion doesn't factor into it.

[Disturbed]

31. Muslim men are allowed to have 4 wives.

When they are US Citizens are they still allowed multiple wives?

If they are not US Citizens and they have several wives does the State or Fed Govt. do anything about it?

[Cleita]

69. Nope.

Many rich Arabs from the oil countries in the ME live in Southern California, Florida, New York and other US cities. They have their wives and children with them, often in separate houses or hotels and no one, not immigration nor any other govt. agency bats an eyelash.

Maybe it's because they don't need to produce marriage certificates for any reason, like we do, that there is no proof that a certain sheik has more than one wife.

[Yupster]

106. There's a website called

www.askimam.com

It's a place where Muslims can ask religious leaders their opinions about all different issues. There are thousands and thousands of questions and answered that can be sorted by topic.

Many of the questions are from Muslims from the Middle East or Asia who now live in the West and are trying to know how they can keep their Muslim beliefs in an open Western society.

There are very many questions to the point of

Paraphrasing

I am married to a woman in California. Do I need to tell my wife in Pakistan about my American marriage, and do I need to provide for my Pakistani wife equally with my American wife as it costs much more to live in California.

[Syncronaut Seven]

35. I would have to agree

The visceral response against polyamore is rooted in fear, insecurity, prejudice and superstition.

I've seen it work splendidly, but only if you leave your prejudice and insecurity at the door.

Trying to tie poly people to incest and pedophilia is hurtfull and highly inaccurate.

I would postulate, it is religious fundamentalism that is the real sickness.

[Triana]

94. Mind you they are two different things...

..polygamy is NOT polyamory. Polygamy is sexist on its face because it's based on patriarchal religion and the women are not allowed multiple husbands. Polyamory has no such limitations and is not based on any religion.

That said, most people I know who are polyamorous are machines. NO emotions. I guess they have to be that way to be poly. I'm not against it. It works for some people. More power to 'em. But their lifestyle seems a tad selfish and they have to shut down at too may emotional levels to maintain all their relationships. This has a chilling effect on their relationships and limits their depth, it seems. If they're happy, it's fine with me. But, I have a problem with emotionally shallow people and superficial relationships that lack committment.

Anyway, that's a digression from my original point. Polyamory at least isn't based on some screwed up religious beliefs.

[recoveringrepublican]

145. I don't either, as long as all are consenting adults.

To be honest, now that I know the reality of raising a family I can see the benefits. More people to help take care of the kids, house, finances, etc. I don't think I could get over the jealousy aspect of it though. If I could I know there are many women I would love to share my entire life, including my wonderful husband, with.

[yurbud]

33. it was sad, but a lot of those women were so homely they couldn't get

arrested outside Utah.

[Syncronaut Seven]

36. Come on brother

How does that comment contribute to thoughtful discourse.

[Disturbed]

38. Polygamy was at one time a standard practice in most..

civilizations. In fact, the Jews practiced it. A bit of Old Testament research will validate this. In order to become a state, Utah was forced to denounce polygamy because the US Govt. demanded it.

[cantstandbush]

41. Hey, who is arguing about history? It's the present that counts.

Slavery was once legal too and so was burning witches at the stake.

[Disturbed]

42. My point is

that people who are Bible followers seem to ignore that Polygamy was a common pratice for Jews. It is still praticed by Muslims and other religions and sanctified by them. If adult females &/or males willingly go into this type of arrangement why is it illegal?

[yurbud]

45. maybe the guys were doing them a favor

[MountainLaurel]

59. You forgot the sarcasm smilie, I hope?

'Cause otherwise it seems that you're saying it's OK for 70-year-old men to rape their 15-year-old great-nieces if they're UGLY. I'm sure that anyone posting on a progressive board wouldn't be that UGLY a human being.

[yurbud]

146. I'm not okay with the kid thing obviously. I was just talking about the

adult women on the show, and half-kidding at that.

It seemed ironic that a guy could want more than one UNattractive wife.

[devilgrrl]

43. Polygomy is just an excuse for a guy to fuck around on his wife.

Seriously.

[Syncronaut Seven]

51. Whew! That puts my mind to rest!

When you learn to spell polygamy, make sure to come back and share more of your infinite wisdom.

My SO's will thank you for your kind and enlightened views, I'm sure.

[devilgrrl]

52. Oh. You have a problem with my statement?

Then trash me because I misspell a word?

What's wrong with my statement? And what's not enlightened about it? Where's the error?

Joseph Smith needed an excuse for his philandering and made polygamy an okay thing to do.... you tell me the reason why he did it if I'm so wrong.

[Syncronaut Seven]

54. Trash you? no, your statement did that.

I just pointed out that a self avowed poly expert can't spell the word polygamy.

Just struck me as funny, that's all.

Where did you get your degree in sociology /psychiatry? I'm curious truly as to what your experience base is.

I'd probably lighten up if you we're more convincing.There! I mis-spelled a word just to make you feel better. ;-)

[devilgrrl]

55. Because I spelled a word wrong makes my statement erroneous?

How so?

[Syncronaut Seven]

57. Actually your statement was one of emotion and not one of logic.

Emotional statements are difficult to address without perspective in to the personality, motivations and life experiences of the person making them. In other words, a minefield.

When you make statements like "polygamy is just another excuse to cheat on your wife" Your making an emotional statement that seems to be tinged with the pain of experience. You are responding to a specific emotional trauma, correct?

I have been involved in two very successful and fulfilling triads in my 45 years on this planet. I have extensive experience in the dynamics of such relationships. If you ever wish to broaden your view on the topic, I would be glad to tutor you.

If your already convinced you've got it all figured out, than perhaps I'm just wasting my time.

[devilgrrl]

71. I based my statement on what I've read about Joseph Smith...

apparently he was popular with the ladies and came up with plural marriages to cater to his whims.

BTW, where in any of this did I state that I was an "expert"? I said what I said and I'm sticking with it!

[Syncronaut Seven]

77. So the beliefs of Joseph smith are commonly held ones among Mormons?

I think I grasp your logic. It's good to see him still speaking for his people. He's been dead for what, 160 years now?

But it looks like you have a pretty good handle on it.

Expert came from your assured tone and bold statements, as if you know what you're talking about. I'm convinced.

[devilgrrl]

82. ....

:sigh:

[Syncronaut Seven]

84. I digress, a better understanding and retrospection

Have given me the opportunity to see that I'm being kind of a jerk.

This isn't combat, just a friendly chat. I apologise for being rude and hope you understand.

Peace.

[Skittles]

98. LOL

oh PLEASE

[Radical Activist]

134. That's not really something we can know

His writings at the time paint the complete opposite picture, one of him reluctantly accepting a command he felt came from God. Which version is true is something we can't possibly know.

[Broken_Hero]

142. My understanding...

I was raised mormon, and the reason I was given (I never fully researched it, or looked it up, but it made sense to me) was during the exodus from New York, to Illinois, and from there to Missouri, and then to Utah. The mormons were in wagon carts, and pulling hard carts. Many men died on the trail/path, and when the man died, leaving his wife, and kids behind. Other men in the group would adopt/marry the widowed woman, and take her, and her children in as his own...but I never looked into it, it made sense to me, men die on the trail, and other men try to help out with wife/kids....but, anyways.

[dysfunctional press]

58. you're thinking of polyamoury-

polygamy is more of a religious thing.

[misternormal]

48. Maybe we should just hang all Mormons huh???

Polygamy is illegal... The Doctine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says it an excommunicatable offense.

Believe me when I tell you, that these polygamists are NOT members of the mainstream Mormon church.

[Common Sense Party]

93. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good witch hunt. nt

[lovuian]

53. Theres a bunch of issues here not being addressed

1. Whats a 14 year old marrying ... She is still a child and she doesn't have a free choice here
This is rape of a child...

These men get these girls so young and innocent and get them pregnant then they are enslaved

Theres not many choices here...

Its a process repeated and repeated... it then turns to incestuous

2. Its like America has little fiefdoms or kingdoms where the rules are different
Democracy elects a corrupt sheriff and corrupt judge thats why the FBI was made because of these
areas in the country where corrupt evil people took over the government and run that part of the land...

3. Utah needs to get their house in order... its a travesty and its UnAmerican... These girls need to know that they are free to make choices other than the ones dictated by their elders...

we are seeing over 50 years of this thing perpetuated I can't imagine what it will look like in 100

Its the Mormon preoccupation to bloodlines... very sick society and women are on the low end of it

[Syncronaut Seven]

63. Its the Mormon preoccupation to bloodlines...

very sick society and women are on the low end of it

Couldn't the same be said for America at large?

I lost track of the original intent of the thread, which is the objection to coersion and abuse. It was easy to mis-interpret as a condemnation of Mormons and lifestyle choices.

The Mgt. regrets any confusion.

[Cleita]

64. Anybody remember the Elizabeth Smart abduction?

What would have been weird anywhere but in Utah was that this crazy homeless guy who dressed in robes claiming he was some biblical figure had a wife he made wear a veil. Then a new "wife" arrived on the scene also wearing a veil. It turns out that this kidnapped kid was out there on the streets in full view and very close to her own home and no one questioned these people because, could it be that it is pretty acceptable there?

[Syncronaut Seven]

73. I think it's because our society has no place for the seriously

mentally ill to go. Most everywhere I go in America, I see the mentally ill. You gotta admit, them folks in Utah were nuts.

I don't think a lack of response to their presence on the street, constitutes an endorsement of crazy homeless guy's values.

I think it constitutes a crime against humanity to turn our heads when others need help. That they went largely un-noticed on the streets IS a problem. I think it's a reflection on our own moral fitness.

[Cleita]

119. Okay, I lived in homeless mecca, Santa Monica, California

and I saw many strange sights with the homeless, but I never saw any women wearing veils. You were more likely to see naked ladies or some draped in blankets and nothing else, but no veils. Even the Muslims in our community who wore various types of hajibs or chadors, didn't veil their faces.

Since this man and his wife seemed to be well-known in the community with the people who worked with them, no one seemed to think it was strange that a new woman had suddenly arrived on the scene. It tells me that they were probably used to it.

Also, I agree with you about taking care of the homeless. We need to reverse the damage done by the Jarvis ammendment in California that seemed to have spread across the country so that we can take care of these dysfunctional people and provide them with the shelter, medical care and medication that they need, which they once had before the Jarvis ammendment was passed.

[Common Sense Party]

91. You've never been to Utah, have you?

[Cleita]

114. Oh, I have many times.

I even visited the Temple as far as I was able to go being a heathen. My observations are first hand. I got the same culture shock that I suppose most Middle America conservatives get visiting Melrose in Los Angeles.

[cantstandbush]

68. Yeah, sorta like the "pure race" Hitler tried to make. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

92. Much of this isn't happening in Utah. Try Arizona. And Canada.

And Texas. And Mexico.

I've lived in Utah 3 different times and have never met a polygamist yet.

I've met LOTS of descendants of polygamists.

[Cleita]

116. I never met a polygamist either. But would they admit it?

I doubt it. I know the communes are way out in rural areas or in the desert where no one really goes unless they have to. What bothers me about Utah is the LDS controlling everyone's lives including non Mormons. Did you ever try to get a beer in Utah? You have to jump through all these obstacles and hoops before you can get a membership to a club where you can drink 3.2% beer.

Did you ever see so many kids in your life all over the place? Turns out a good practicing Mormon woman is expected to have at least five children. No one tells her she has to but it is expected of her. A little peer pressure here at work? Have you ever gone into a book store in Utah, like Borders? About a third of the books in there are all LDS and labeled as such. I never saw the same in others states, like a third Catholic books or a third Muslim books.

Other than that parts of it are lovely. Parts are moon landscapelike like the salt flats and Salt Lake really doesn't smell that good.

[Radical Activist]

136. Oh please

Yes, I've had a beer in Utah. It was pretty easy, much easier than some of the dry counties I've been to in the South and Midwest.

Gosh, stores like Borders meet the demands of their costumers in heavily Mormon areas. How oppressive!

I grew up Mormon and only knew a few families with five or more kids. But at least you acknowledged that the LDS church doesn't tell women how many children to have. If a woman in Utah feels pressured to have lots of children it sounds like a personal problem. That's not the LDS church's fault unless you can show it happens uniformly in all areas, which you can't. Where did you get the 5 number anyway? Give me a break!

[Cleita]

138. From one of your fellow Mormon women.

I know people don't like outside criticism, but sometimes you just have to say something. Now I am not criticising the individuals who are Mormon or even the Church of LDS. What I am criticising is their control over the civil government and many social institutions in Utah. That's just plain wrong, as wrong as the southern states that put Ten Commandments in Court Houses and allowing the Rev. Moon to be crowned as a Messiah in a public building.

Separation of church and state is something I am very militant about and your church has overstepped it's bounds in Utah, So. Idaho and Eastern Nevada.

[Radical Activist]

139. Well that settles it then

Very authoritive claim. :eyes: And did I say I was Mormon?

[Cleita]

140. Your words.

"I grew up Mormon and only knew a few families with five or more kids."

You didn't say you weren't Mormon anymore, so not being a mind reader I assumed you still were.

[Radical Activist]

137. Do you even care

to make the distinction between the people practicing polygamy and people belonging to the actual Mormon church, whom polygamists have to hide themselves from?

Did you know Utah was the second place where women exercised the right to vote? The first woman elected to a state Senate was in Utah.

[Cleita]

61. Oops posted in the wrong place.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. with consenting adults i have no issues with polygamy/polyamory

but incest/pedophilia/statutory rape is hardly only the domain of polygamist...plenty of monogamists engage in these criminal acts too

[Cleita]

70. Don't we Americans practice a kind of serial polygamy?

I mean how many of us have been married only once? The only difference is that we live with only one spouse at a time. My real opinion of polymarriages is that if consenting adults want to do this then I think it's fine.

I believe having multiple wives arose from a time when men were often killed either in war or hunting. His brother was often obligated to marry his dead brother's wife so she and her children would have a tent over her head.

This doesn't mean that our natural preferences aren't for monogamy. I think most of us prefer to be married to one person at a time anyway.

[Syncronaut Seven]

75. Not kind of, full tilt. Aparently, it's quite fashionable.

For the more ethical and honest among us, here's a couple of chestnuts.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1880789086/sr=8-1/qid=1142392434/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0653144-8809704?%5Fencoding=UTF8

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890159018/sr=8-9/qid=1142392434/ref=sr_1_9/102-0653144-8809704?%5Fencoding=UTF8

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0441788386/qid=1142392532/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-0653144-8809704?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[triguy46]

122. Wouldn't that be serial monogomy? n/t

[Cleita]

124. No. Monogamy would be mating for life wouldn't it be?

eom

[linazelle]

76. The little boys at, like, 5 were already hoping to have multiple wives

And the men were disgusting :puke:

Pure pervs.

[aikoaiko]

89. I once interviewed a woman from Short Creek AZ UT (a polygamist town).

This is a late contribution to this thread, but I once interviewed a woman who was a mormon polygamist wife and (long story short) I learned to live and let live.

When I was a student at Northern Arizona University and taking an advanced sociology class, the professor suggested I go interview a resident of Colorado City (a.k.a. Short Creek). I think it has just incorporated at Colorado City around 1988-89. Desperate to make a good grade on this project, I loaded up my motorcycle and took off from Flagstaff on Sunday morning. I was on a Sportster chopper and had to stop many times to fill up my tiny tank. Every time I stopped at a gas station, I would ask if I was heading in the right direction for Short Creek. As I got closer, the gas attendants would look at me with my motorcycle, black leather jacket, long hair, and earrings and ask incredulously why I was going there. My answer was always the same, “ I need to talk to someone who lives there”. Not one, but two different attendants told me to be careful if I saw anyone with a gun.

My plan was to go to a local café or diner and strike up a conversation with a local and then head back to Flag. I arrived in what seemed to be dusty little town on the border of AZ and UT. It was a nice ride. The first thing I noticed was all the big houses with blue tarps covered the portions that seemed to be under construction – as if an edition was being added. The second thing I noticed was that the local café was closed and not a single person was walking the streets. And then it dawned on me that it was Sunday and that everyone was in temple. So I scooted around on my bike and saw a temple with the biggest full parking lot in northern Arizona. I decided that I should not go inside. I just drove around looking for a gas station and a cold drink.

On one street I saw an older, gray-haired, stocky woman a tomato field with a few children. Here was my first person. I got off my bike and walked up to the fence – she walked toward me. Thinking my café plan might still work, I asked where I could get a bite to eat. She directed me to the highway and the next town 25 miles away (St. George). I realized my plan was hopeless. I looked at her and disclosed everything. I told her I was college student sent to Short Creek to interview a resident. She asked me why I wanted to interview someone, and in my naiveté I said, “Because you’re different”. She looked at me, then grinned and said, “Yep, we’re different”. She invited me into the tomato field and a 5 hour conversation started.

The story she told me was incredible. Her name was Jane and she was close to 60 years old. She was a mother to 16 children and one of 7 wives to her husband. As it turned out, she was the town rebel. This made sense because she was wearing jeans and not in temple on Sunday. This also explained why she was willing to talk to me about her community. If you saw the news piece on Colorado City, you saw how most residents react to outsiders with questions. She was adamant that her community was making a mistake by excluding outsiders and being secretive. She wanted “her people” to communicate much more with the outside world.

She told me how she believed that God was ok with polygamy. Only the first wife was legal and the others were just religious marriages. Not every man gets many wives – the church leaders had to give permission. Apparently the ability to support them without the help of welfare was not one of the conditions of polygamy. Originally, she was married to another husband who met an untimely demise. Another man took her in as a wife. While the father is father to all his children, the wives mostly marshal their own children or babysit other wives’ children. A wife has “powerful aunt” status to the children of other wives.

One of the worst parts her story was when government agents (she said FBI, but records show it was National Guard and AZ police) raided the town in the 1950s. She was a teenager and with a child. The people of Short Creek knew of the raid. The women and children were kept inside and the men were armed. She said they were prepared to fight, but no fighting occurred. She feared that every man in the town would be shot dead. Her husband was hauled away with all the other men for almost 2 years. Two years of feeling like their country betrayed them, two years of not knowing if her husband would ever be let out, two years of just barely surviving. Eventually, the men were returned and most AZ and UT people thought the raid was a stupid political stunt. Ever since, the states of AZ and UT looked the other way. Jane said it was like they had reservation status (like American Indians).

Another one of her tales was the treatment of her boys. As a self-professed trouble maker, she said the town leaders would take their frustrations with her out on her boys. It’s easy for a boy to be banished from Short Creek, but girls are kept around no matter what. She told me about one of her sons, Nate, was banished from Short Creek because he shot out a street light with a BB gun. He went to live with family outside of Short Creek. She said I reminded her of him - she wasn’t the only one. We returned to her house where she made dinner for her children and invited me to stay. As I was eating there was a knock on the door. Her husband and two other men (one with a lever action rifle) came to tell her that Nate had to leave town. She explained who I was and she was told that I had to leave town anyway. They walked away. I said my goodbyes and thanked her for everything she told me (more than I revealed here).

I left town without incident. It was a cold ride back to Flag. In the end, felt ambivalent about Jane and her town. She didn’t tell me about any forced marriages of children to old men, but she may have been one of them. In my research on polygamy, I learned that most of the world’s population is polygamous in one form or another and that monogamy was not as popular or normal as I had thought. The numbers are even worse if you consider all the men in monogamous cultures who have mistresses or father children with girlfriends or men who support multiple wives and children with a divorce in between marriages. In the end, I decided that Jane was like most women or men. She was kind of stuck with the culture into which she was born. She liked some things about it and didn’t others. She would defend “her people”, but still try to change them for the better.

[ConsAreLiars]

95. "She was kind of stuck with the culture into which she was born."

Exactly right. And aren't we all. Thank you for sharing that tale.

(I once had an analagous encounter with a young man from Afghanistan - it would not surprise me if he later allied himself with the Taliban. At that time the discussion was about the "right" and "wrong" and "honor" of his intent to seek out those who, in a clan conflict, had killed his family (or their relatives). Although his POV was utterly different than mine, I learned to respect him for his integrity, and still regard him as one of my most admired teachers.)

[Cleita]

117. My late husband and I have been through that area

although we never stopped. I thought of it as really remote. I often wondered if we broke down, how long it would take us to find a place to call a tow truck. There was no cell phone service then.

[blue northern]

118. thanks for such an interesting post n/t

[aikoaiko]

120. You're welcome

I'm grateful for the experience. It opened my eyes to a more varied American than I knew existed. We are a diverse lot.


Jane, the woman I interviewed, told me a lot things, both good and bad, about living where she did. Clearly, most of the downside was related to living an "illegal" lifestyle where they were really defensive, almost paranoid, about being raided or prosecuted.

It was also clear that the women were somewhat 2nd class citizens to the men. That may be inherent in a hyper traditional family structure. I don't think Jane would have described it that way, but thats what it seemed like to me. The desires and goals of the women were secondary to the men's and children's. Again, I think Jane, saw it as the way God intended and was fine with it. On the other hand, Jane wished they would lighten up on women. For example,it wasn't until she was older that she could tell her husband that she was going to wear jeans.

Another downside is that the isolationism allowed bad people to thrive. They had little recourse when someone was really bad -- especially a prophet. The LDS wouldn't help and they didn't trust the police. Of course they figured out ways of taking care of their own. The west can still be a wild place.

;-)

[NJCher]

128. another program on polygamy last week

I, too, want to thank you for sharing your college experience, aikoaiko. It was a quite fascinating narrative.

Did you know Dateline had a show on about a woman who escaped from a polygamist marriage in Colorado City? It was about a week ago. The host was Jose Quinones. In the beginning, they presented Colorado City as this creepy town with a secret. And did the show ever live up to that billing.

The story centered around a woman who left her husband because she did not want to share him. I believe the other woman was her sister or half-sister or some such thing. At any rate, it was gross as hell when she described how, on her wedding night, her sister didn't want to be alone and came to their bedroom. While she was screwing her new husband, the other wife was also in the bed and hanging on his back. I can't even begin to tell you how disgusted I was and anything else I've seen on this topic has simply added to my contempt and disgust for these arrangements. They are exploitative in the extreme.

Anyway, this woman was taken to a mental hospital four times because of her strong disagreement about living in such an arrangement. It was her husband who admitted her!

Finally she left him and got custody of the kids. She went to another city to live. They interviewed her husband who, despite being a polygamist, didn't seem like such a bad guy. He was heartbroken about being without his children.

Eventually, this woman went back to her husband with the kids. She had gotten him to promise that he would not take another wife. I don't know what happened to the other wife that was there; I don't think the program dealt with it.

At the end of the show they interviewed the two of them together and he seemed to be of two minds. At one point he said he couldn't have another wife and he knew it because that was his arrangement with getting his wife to return. On the other hand, he also said that if God told him to have another wife, he would do so.

I'm wondering what the deal is with all the polygamy discussion going on now. I know we tend to be a bit paranoid about Rove on this board but what if it's an issue that he had in his back pocket that he could pull out as a diversion? So what if they are mostly Republicans--there aren't that many of them and this story would contain a couple elements that appeal to fundie types. First, there's the welfare angle. Nothing that gets those republicans so hot and bothered as a welfare issue. Second is the multiple wives/sex issue. That has to bother the fundie repuke base.

We have the Dateline story, this A & E story and the HBO story. There is probably more discussion that I'm not even aware of.

Just wondering.




Cher

[readmoreoften]

96. The Mormons are funding a lot of media now. I wonder if this is theirs.

They funded Napolean Dynomite. That really surprised me.

[XemaSab]

97. I'm okay with polygamy

as long as the women and men involved are okay with it.

I think there are a lot of things about polygamy that make sense in modern society for both men and women.

A woman can have many children and still have a career because she knows that the children are being well cared for at home by another wife.

A stay-at-home-mom can have the security of multiple incomes so if the husband becomes unemployed the family still has money coming in.

A household can have multiple incomes and still have a stay-at-home parent to raise the children, cook healthy meals, and keep the house tidy.

Children don't have to be left alone unsupervised for hours on end.

Finally, a man doesn't have to choose between an established marriage and a hot young thing he just met so there's no "homewrecking" involved in choosing another partner.

:shrug:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

99. Why you unpatriotic, treasonous, anti-american communist!!

Just kidding. I agree that as long as it's consensual then I see no problem with it.

[NMMNG]

100. What???

If we allow polygamy in America next thing you know people will want to marry their children, their siblings, box-turtles and furniture. Do you want people mating with box-turtles? Do you?!?!



On a serious note, I agree. If all parties are consenting adults who agree to the arrangement, there is no problem, IMO.

[Yupster]

108. I agree too

As long as it's adults involved, who am I to tell people who they can and can't marry. It's really none of my business, and it sure ain't the government's business.

[ProfessorGAC]

111. Didn't You Hear?

I am now the official and sole arbiter of social morality in the United States. So, it's not your business, not the gov't. Just mine. I'll decide what's ok for everybody.

Polygamy is ok for some people, but i'll decide who they are at the time.
The Professor

[951-Riverside]

115. Huh??

If we allow polygamy in America next thing you know people will want to marry their children, their siblings

I take it you are against that, personally I think its VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY creepy but if we're talking about consenting adults, why not? :puke: *wipes mouth*

[NMMNG]

133. My post was actually a joke

A parody of those slippery-slope arguments that people use when protesting same-sex marriages.

As to consenting adults marrying family members who are consenting adults, I think it's nasty as well (though how much of that is due to societal influences I can't say). The only reason I can think of, logically, to be against it being legal is because of the increased chances of passing on birth defects/genetic flaws to offspring when such individuals mate.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

125. I don't see any reason why

it should be illegal, any more than gay marriage should be. Consenting adults and all that.

It wouldn't work for me, but whatever floats your boat.

[Ariana Celeste]

130. I am too.

If they are adults and all are cool with it, why the hell not? Not my cup of tea, personally, but I have no problem with others who may choose that way of life.

None of my business, or anyone else's. imo.

[Radical Activist]

135. I've heard these arguments

used for polygamy as it existed in the 1850's in Utah when it was still legal. All of that changed and became moot when it was made illegal. What happens today is obviously very unhealthy.

[Rowdyboy]

143. Are you familiar with Robert Heinlein's "Lazarus Long" scifi series?

To many fans of early scifi he is a real artist. Lazarus Long was a long lived, multiply married man who eventually traveled back in time, fell in love with his own mother, and (during an affair) became his own father.

Besides that tidbit (which I HAD to mention) the future world he envisions involved large, expanded families of consensual adults raising children as a commune. If you're interested in the subject, I think you'd enjoy his interpretation.

[Blue_Tires]

105. oh yeah, but don't EVER let the queers adopt or get married!

because it makes a mockery of 'traditional' marraige!:sarcasm:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

129. After reading this thread

I'm fairly surprised to encounter so many negative comments. Obviously, incest and pedophilia victimize children and should remain illegal. But to my mind, if we are saying the government needs to stay out of our bedrooms, it means all bedrooms. Even in the compounds. Even if the people have beliefs very alien to ours. We are demanding that fundamentalists accept something (gay marriage) they have long believed to be wrong. And I think we are correct. But in my opinion, we, therefore need to accept some concepts that make us uncomfortable. We can't have it both ways.

[Catherine Vincent]

131. "...it means all bedrooms."

Not if underage children are involved.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

144. Absolutely not

I thought I made that clear when I said "pedophilia" in my post. I should have emphasized that concept more emphatically.

An underage child is a victim. 14 is too young.

Although..my grandmother married at 14, but that was in 1908 and I think we're a bit wiser in that regard now. She had five children before she was 19.

[Radical Activist]

132. oops

nevermind