Should I Give Up on my Party?

[NightOwwl]

I can't take anymore of their silence and cowardice. The lack of support for censure is the final straw.

I sent the following email to the DNC and both of my Senators (Boxer and Feinstein.)

I am a life-long democrat who has faithfully voted along party lines for 25 years. Come 2008, this will all change if a Republican-lite candidate (Hillary Clinton comes to mind) is the presidential nominee. I will NO LONGER support my party if once again, the base is taken for granted.

Yes, my lack of a vote may be the one that puts another Republican in the White House, but you know what? I don't care anymore. If my party doesn't see fit to represent me, I have no desire to represent my party. The Democratic "leadership" is a joke, and I am sick and tired of their silence and their cowardice. I am sick and tired of watching Democrat's transparent efforts to appeal to conservatives by moving to the right of issues such as abortion and the Iraq war. I am sick and tired and incredibly angry.

I never thought I would say this, but it appears Ralph Nader was right. There doesn't seem to be any difference between the two parties. It sickens me to say that, but I have not seen evidence of anything to make me think otherwise. We have Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court. We are still in this immoral, illegal war. The president wipes his ass with the Constitution and there is no response but silence.

WHEN ARE THE DEMOCRATS GOING TO STAND UP AND BE THE OPPOSITION PARTY?

WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO STAND AS ONE AND DENOUNCE THE WAR IN IRAQ?

WHEN IS MY VOICE AND THE VOICE OF OTHER LOYAL DEMOCRATS GOING TO BE HEARD?

Will I really go through with my threat? Who knows. But the despair and defeat I feel right now is for real. Thank god for DU, because without all of you I would feel so alone right now.

[Norquist Nemesis]

1. I almost right behind you in line

Good letter! You should send it to Reid, Pelosi, and any Democratic politicians for your state, too.

[NightOwwl]

Thanks for the suggestion NN...

I will send it to Reid and Pelosi right now.

[EFerrari]

2. NightOwwl, don't let the bastards get you down.

A lot of people are tired and frustrated.

Don't let tiredness or frustration do your thinking.

Can we try to stay focused on the job at hand, and maybe suspend decisions about "forever" for a calmer day?

I share your frustration even if I don't share your party affiliation. But, there's work to do.

Let's do it. Let's get it done, first. Don't let anything take you off task, or the terraists win.

:hug:

[NightOwwl]

6. Thanks for the kind words.

It really helps.

:hug:

[EFerrari]

9. We hang together or you know what.

We'll get through this. Watch.

:)

[PVK]

3. I told them the same thing. Why should I give to them?

I will give to candidates that fight. And I will give to the DNC because Howard Dean is doing his job right by building the party in all 50 states. But I will NOT give to the DLC or any DLC candidates.

[Rose Siding]

11. I wrote and called my senators too, and I sent this to Dean-

"Howard, Please make a statement in support of the Feingold resolution

from, (my info), a loyal Democracy Bond holder"

[T Wolf]

4. But the fact is that even this board is split between the progressives

who want to fight on principle and the DLCers who think that abandoning the base and moving to the right is the way to get back into power.

I do not really think that the two parties are the same, at least in the broadest sense. But operationally, the Dems that currently inhabit DC are not that different from the pukes. They really do not fight for the core beliefs of democracy. They adhere to the idea that we have nowhere else to go.

How far is too far? I too, am pretty damn close to that point.

[xultar]

8. True. The base is closer to our views than anyone elses.

I know when I walk the streets of Houston and Atlanta everyone seems to be very progressive. They are up on the issues and know that * is a lying ignorant warmongering fraud. Truly the base is on our side. It is the few DINOs and Rethug-Lites that are holding us back from unity.

Most of America is on our side the progressive side of the issues.

[progressivebydesign]

82. Not sure I agree with that. Most people are moderates...

they could vote either way, actually. The goal of both parties is to fire up their diehards, and to woo the fence-sitters. Party unity is a fine concept, and for appearance sake works for republicans because they've learned to keep their differences under cover, but party unity can only happen for the Democrats when we all accept that we desperately need the moderates. I see progressives here and there where I've lived. Unless I'm in a big city, most of the time the people are middle of the road, and the republican groups have much better turn outs than any of the Democratic groups.

[WilliamPitt]

13. Oh fucking bullshit

"But the fact is that even this board is split between the progressives who want to fight on principle and the DLCers who think that abandoning the base and moving to the right is the way to get back into power."

My fucking hero. Too bad what you've tapped out above is a gross overgeneralization.

Principle is good and great...but without even a bare fraction of tactical organization and planning before any action, principles and a quarter won't get you a phone call. I work for Progressive Democrats of America and I can tell you, without restraint, that tactics and planning and organization beforehand are the ONLY WAY progressive principles even get into any political conversation these days. Just being right is not enough.

Is it DLC to want to fight smart? To have Russ Feingold, for one example, actually GATHER SUPPORT before making a censure move? Maybe do that instead of surprising everyone the day before, failing extravagantly because he put no back work into the thing, and then running to Fox News to give them clips of him insulting Democrats which they will run endlessly for the next nine months?

Methinks the divisiveness comes from the likes of you, who enjoy being righteous to such a degree that you cannot get out of your own way.

[xultar]

16. ...

snort

[leftstreet]

20. The Vichy Dems have had plenty of time to support him.

http://www.feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/06/03/2006307.html

March 7, 2006

The Intelligence Committee’s failure to authorize an investigation into warrantless surveillance is yet another abdication of Congress’s responsibility to provide oversight and ensure accountability for this illegal program. Limiting information about the program to a minority of the Committee is not just grossly inadequate, it is contrary to the law that requires that the entire Committee be fully informed of intelligence surveillance programs.

FEINGOLD BLASTS FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM
Feingold: “The Intelligence Committee Has Abandoned Its Oversight Role.”


http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/06/02/20060216.html
February 16, 2006

Washington D.C. – U.S. Senator Russ Feingold released the following statement this afternoon following the Intelligence Committee Meeting.

“The Intelligence Committee’s failure today to begin an investigation of the administration’s illegal domestic surveillance program is inexcusable. The Senate Committee charged with conducting oversight of intelligence matters has a responsibility to look more deeply into the President’s illegal secret wiretapping of Americans. The President has broken the law and Congress needs to hold him accountable.”

http://www.feingold.senate.gov/statements/06/02/20060207.html

February 7, 2006
Statement of Senator Russ Feingold
On the President’s Warrantless Wiretapping Program
As Prepared for Delivery From the Senate Floor

When someone breaks the law, when someone misleads the public in an attempt to justify his actions, he needs to be held accountable. The President of the United States has broken the law. The President of the United States is trying to mislead the American people. And he needs to be held accountable.

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/06/01/2006111.html
January 11, 2006

Senator Feingold and members of Congress from both parties have expressed deep concern about the President authorizing the National Security Agency (NSA) to wiretap American citizens on American soil without a warrant. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) makes it a crime to wiretap Americans in the United States without a warrant or a court order.

[WilliamPitt]

23. Nowhere in there do I see the words

"Here is my censure demand. Read it and support me."

[leftstreet]

25. And you're certain he didn't tell a soul what he was planning?

Pffft.

[WilliamPitt]

27. He himself said he didn't on Sunday

Was he lying?

[leftstreet]

30. So what. He boinked the Dems without enough foreplay

And this is what they're pissed about?

:shrug:

They've been letting the Repubs do it to them without so much as a dinner or movie for far too long!

[WilliamPitt]

38. They're pissed?

Are they going on Fox to throw Feingold under the bus?

Remind me never to hire you as a congressional staffer. Our office would be the most get-nothing-done office in the history of the Rayburn Building.

[leftstreet]

48. Remind me never to vote for you if you run for Congress

:hi: :rofl:

You know, they make hair products to deal with those 'splitting' ones.

I don't get the anger over Feingold not following a preferred protocol in introducing his resolution.

It's out there. Something tells me my clueless neighbors would rather discuss the censure of a President for illegal activities, than the game behind its introduction.

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

52. Your neighbors won't get to discuss it

because it is going to be here and gone. I'm thrilled Feingold introduced this. Just wish it hadn't been a solo show. Had he gathered support, it would have made more of an impact.

That's not hairsplitting. That's the difference between getting things done and not.

[leftstreet]

54. But the cool thing is, my neighbors already are.

They saw snips of him on the teevee with that Wolf (AKA Shitzer AKA Leslie AKA the Ewok) guy.

"Hey, who's this Feingold dude? He's got it right, man. Bush should be impeached like Nixon!"

:toast:

The TEEVEE decides what will or won't make an impact.
Not silly games in DC.

[Generic Other]

84. Why should he have not expected EVERY Democrat to jump on board

This resolution was stating the pure fucking obvious. No way in hell was he wrong. Every single one of those shitheads knows what's at stake. Yet, one Democrat finally states the truth that should be shouted from the rooftops, and he stands alone. Just like everyone on DU the past 5 years. Just like everyone who voted for Democrats the past 5 years. We shout and we rant and we beg and we plead. Then our BRAVE leaders go kiss more Bush butt.

I can only take so much. I've reached the end of my ability to make excuses for Democrats. I feel like I am married to an abusive drunk who constantly beats me. At some point, I'm going to slam him across the head with a two by four.

How the hell am I supposed to keep faith with a leadership who only cares about saving their timid necks by offering up the rest of us as sacrifices? People are dying because of their cowardice. Every time they back away from the fight, they strengthen their enemies.

We will hear all about it, how our Democratic leadership has NO IDEAS to offer, nothing but the sight of their backsides retreating like frightened rabbits.

I am fed up. And mad at you too Will for dismissing my pain.

[katinmn]

102. Feingold should have gathered support? From whom?

Oh yeah! All those senators that speak truth to power every damn day. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

21. Will, can I ask you something? How do you know he didn't

do back work? Real question.

What I saw on CSPAN yesterday was a choreographed performance among the Dems. Sarbanes, Feingold, Reid, Durbin. They were in the zone, in sync.

Doesn't that argue that there WAS collaboration? What do you think about that?

I know many Dems are doing some hard number crunching right now. I hope their calculations factor in the profound outrage that seems to be busting out all over the base.

[WilliamPitt]

24. Besides the fact that Feingold himself said on Sunday

that no other Senator had seen his Censure documents, and that failure to provide these documents meant that no Senator was going to sign on to something they hadn't read, I saw the disorganization and general retreat as a sure sign that this caught them all by surprise. Those who did step up did so on their own hook, without any organization from Feingold.

[EFerrari]

32. Okay. I wonder though if this whole "Feingold didn't share"

isn't a way to allow those folks, who really need to step away from this gesture, a place to go?

Because I don't think I've ever seen such a coordinated, public effort in the Senate. Maybe just my projection.

[SaveElmer]

33. Thank you...

There are people here who have been saying that very thing. One negative word about Sen. Feingold, even though it is constructive in nature, results in alot of derision.

I support a censure motion, just not the way he went about it. For crying out loud, John Kerry was out of town when he proposed it, and couldn't support it right away because he didn't even have a copy of it!

[Critters2]

39. If that hadn't been the excuse, Kerry would've found another one

He may have been courageous in Viet Nam, but he hasn't been lately.

[SaveElmer]

40. He is probably going to support it...

But no one should be expected to vote for something they haven't read! And correct me if I'm wrong, but when Feingold declined to lead the filibuster effort against Alito, who stepped up? ANd for that matter which of the two voted for Roberts?

[WilliamPitt]

46. Rilly?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=660369&mesg_id=660369

Nice try.

[cascadiance]

43. I guess the question I keep coming to on this is...

Was it perhaps that Feingold HAD tried to organize this before, and gotten no support behind closed doors by the do nothing Dems that forced him to come out on his own for this? If so, then I COMPLETELY support that he had the brass ones to come forward and try to wake people up with this effort of this disease that we all sense is in the Democratic Party now. We can't really know that for sure. I suspect that it is something like that.

Feingold's not a stupid man. And more than any other congress person, I trust his motives to be those that are fighting for our values. If he felt that his back was against the wall and he had no choice but to make this move, then I say more power to him, and we NEED to support him doing so to send a message to other Dems to stop the worthless inactivity that they've been doing for the last few years. They could be trying to organize a real opposition, with fillibustering of Alito (which they had the power to do if they acted in unity), and now with supporting Feingold in this effort.

[WilliamPitt]

44. He said "I didn't show it to any other Senators"

on the Sunday show. Was he lying?

[cascadiance]

50. I'm talking about not this specific proposal...

... but perhaps his discussions with them on impeachment and other issues (the fillibuster of Alito, etc.). Perhaps he felt that unless he came out with it the way he did, they'd find some way to procedurally silence him or the like, based on his other interactions. I could certainly see that happening in today's climate. Then he wouldn't be lying. He perhaps didn't show them the specific legislation he was going to propose, but he had an earlier strong indication on how they would react/work with him based on his previous interactions on related subjects.

[LeftHander]

100. Not the only Person who can flame...

Hey Will...piss off...you aren't the only one who can swear....

And you are right the division is coming from....him and ME!

It really sounds like you are trying to paint Fiengold as a "loose cannon" non-thinker...well I would have to say you are so fucking wrong on this.

Maybe you forgot his credentials. Rhodes scholar, Harvard Law School honors graduate.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe JUST MAYBE....Russ WAS talking to lots of people before making the decision to propose a censure? Maybe he knew it would be pointless to gather support. Maybe he knows things you or I don't....

Face it.

Lots of people are PISSED off at the games being played by the Democratic leadership. The backroom deals, the "politicking" with values that many many people hold, playing fast and loose with the rule of law.....Trading for votes and token bones tossed from a crooked evil group of self serving hypocrits.

We stand at the verge of a total FUCKING COLLPASE of our democracy at the hands of devious rich conservatives and timid, wide eyed and bewildered democrats looking for ways to connect with the right who have no reason to bargin.

I SAY FUCK YOU WILL...

The time of planning, collborating, dealing and negotiating is WAY OVER!!

WE WANT ACTION!! If the DEMOCRATIC PARTY doesn't start doing WILL BE REPLACED with people who will take action...

That is the choice. Start feeling the FUCKING PAIN that this nation is or remain numb and keep grasping at the straws held by the GOP.

[katinmn]

105. Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

There is too much outrage, too many wrongs that need correcting NOW!

I'm sick of the "leaders" :sarcasm: failing strategies based on not much more than manipulating the electorate and stomping on people like Murtha and Feingold who are doing something.


Relatives mourn near the bodies of children, reportedly killed in a U.S. raid, as they arrive in a hospital in Tikrit, 130 kilometers (80 miles) north of Baghdad, Iraq, Wednesday, March 15,2006. Eleven people, most of them women and children were killed when a house was bombed during a U.S. raid north of Baghdad early Wednesday, police and relatives said. The U.S. military acknowledged four deaths in the raid that they said netted an insurgent suspect in the rural Isahaqi area, about 80 kilometers (50 miles) north of the capital. (AP Photo/Bassim Daham)

[WilliamPitt]

106. So what exactly are you doing about it?

Besides writing here, I mean.

I am hands-on assisting half a dozen progressive candidates in six different districts who are running for congress. And writing here.

You?

Your outrage shines bright. If it doesn't go beyond this page, however, it is beyond pathetic.

[LeftHander]

107. Many things...my friend....

I do many things....not in a particulalry organized or "planned" way but I move, speak and live my spirit. A little voice...that keeps speaking.

Some things I will do, do and have done:

Assiting my local mayoral candidate to prevent a neocon take over of our city government and the subsequent gutting of services and education.

I worked as Democratic volunteer for Feingold's reelection. I've been published several times as a guest opinion in my local paper addressing issues on taxes and education, conservative ideology, war, local development. (A very conservative local paper mind you in a very conservative county in Wisconsin, I have felt the sting of local threats form right wing thuggery.) I also have been published on sites like CommonDreams and here on DU in the past.

I worked to save a skatepark from the hate and discrimination by right wing thugs bent on preventing our youth from enjoying our parks. I brought to the attention of all in Wisconsin the true consequences of dumping millions of gallons of sewage into the Lake Michigan by describing in detail the sewage slick I encountered to local media. It ended up changing public opinion in a very graphic and detailed manner. Think rafts of thosands upon thousands of used condoms and tampons floating just a mile off a local beach....

I have stood in the cold protesting the War many times....I have helped with local anti-war protests, I have spoke out on the Gay Marriage amendment ban and plan on being a very active and visable force in the oppostition of this amendment to Wisconsin's state constitution.

I am active in my UU church working to spread our message of peace, hope and justice to our wider community by bringing in new technology to electronically distribute our sermons and music to a world wide audience. I am working to bring our liberal church community of mostly (all) white suburban upper and middle class liberals together withinner city black church's through music exchanges. Some way must be found to bridge the gap between our communities and come together to end the rasicim and condition of aparthied right here in Milwaukee.

I write and perform politically and emotionally charged songs about the human condition and state of our nation in my band.

I am on the front lines, Will and I personally take affront to anyone who dimishes the values of the people whom I love and respect. Even people like the orginal poster who want to ask questions and state his or her emotional stress and dissapointment. We need people who place humanity first and still regard truth, honor and priciples as being the true tools in combating the tyranny of the right.

This is no game anymore. People are being systematically declared non-persons by our society and I am doing all that I can do, as you are, to infom and help at a very local level by taking the converstation directly to the people in my community. Showing them the lies and treachery of the corporate controlled media and self serving false politicians and the bigots who follow them.

Sometimes it is one to one. Sometimes it is in writing. Sometimes it is in action, sometimes it is in song. Most of the time it is in how I live my life everyday. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I am ignored. But I will never EVER stop standing up for peace, truth, justice and fairness.

These haters that run this nation are a very oganized and devious bunch. But they are no different that the local thugs that strong arm thier way into local office through gang like intimidation of local citizens. They are mean spirited and nasty behind the sweet voice and perfect piety. I for one stand up to these people with strong words and truth to call it like it is. I have heard the talk of these people.

The amount of HATE these people are capable of is phenomenal and there are thousands upon thousands of them in my community, in YOUR community. The only way to stemming the tide of this nation's rush into tyranny is to throw the truth at them over and over and over again and NEVER compromise our values with them because they NEVER WILL never respect anyone who does. These people need to be beat down HARD...they are BIGOTS, LIARS and CHEATS and deserve no compromise and little compassion until they see the damage they have caused and are held accountable.

You know this.

This nation is dividing....not along the political lines of Democrat and Republican. But along the idelogical lines of freedom and equality versus tyranny and discrimination. One side is pulling this nation into a corporate controlled regressive society where people are openly discriminated against. Where the rich flaunt their wealth in the face of the poor. Where corporations run uncontrolled and unchecked. Where our government spends more money on weapons to kill children than food to feed them or books to educate them.

The otherside is trying to stop the fall of our nation into a universally hated enemy of the world. We want to live in peace, lightly on the earth and in fairness to all. We want a world in which we don't simply tolerate differences...we embrace them. One where we take only what is earned and give back more than we take.

That is the division we face now. Which way do you choose....?

[xultar]

5. Sure. Why not? They've done absolutely nothing and have done

less than nothing in the past 6 years.

I'm sick of them too. Dems have done nothing for black people. I don't even know why I keep trying.

I'm just about to pack it in my damn self.

[pocket]

7. where will you go?

just curious.

[xultar]

12. No where. Sit on my ass. RELAX for a fuckin change. I'm tired

I'm tired of fighting my own.

It is sick and sad. When I see what is happening to this party it reminds me of how blacks fight each other. We fight and kill each other more than we do racist fucks.
While we're fighting each other we're getting trampled on and don't even notice.

I'm tired of seeing us set each other back. So I'm just about to sit out the game.

It depends on what happens in 2k6. After the November elections either I'll be down for 2k8 or I'll tell the Dems and Progressives to shove it up their collective asses.

[readmoreoften]

75. I'm with you. I will probably vote Dem even though I don't want to.

I'm disheartened about Dems who never seem to do anything for African-Americans. And I'm really not sure I can vote for DLC dems who are all too eager to show how quickly and how joyfully they can and will oppose GLBT civil rights. I'm only hanging on to the Dems these days because of labor and abortion. I think it's funny how people think that abortion is going to be the wedge issue that brings down the Republicans. I think abortion keeps our own party stagnant because most of us will vote hold our nose and vote for the pro-choice candidate regardless, and they can count on that.

Basically, we have two choices: conservative democrats or theocracy. The only problem is that electing a conservative democrat isn't going to do much to stop this country's slide into fascism. Clinton didn't stop the slide; his presidency just pushed it below the radar so it could fester.

There is basically no organized opposition to this thing that's going on. It's like fighting an alien invasion. We're just not prepared and most of us won't or can't face the facts, or don't know what the hell to do with the facts once they're presented.

I sure as hell don't.

[T Wolf]

14. There is the strong possibility that many of us life-long Dems will just

sit it (election) out or support a real progressive candidate. It might have a short-term negative effect (tho I really do not see how a puke super-majority could do any more harm than the majority now does with Democratic complicity).

Many of us feel that the current crop of Vichy-Dems just needs to be slapped down (and out) in order to start all over again.

And I challenge those who disagree to provide one example of what could be worse if the party is decimated at the polls. What would be different?

[NightOwwl]

19. Maybe they have to hit rock-bottom before they wake up...

to the fact they are losing the support of those that are (were) the most loyal and vociferous. I just don't understand how they don't see it happening right now. It's right in front of them.

They need to pay less attention to their beltway buddies and start listening to their consituents right now.

[xultar]

22. Yeah, why don't we lead a united front for Progressives. WE SIT OUT

2k6.


Then demand that they put up some real progressives for 2k8 or we'll sit that one out too!

[Critters2]

41. That's the classic response, n'est-ce pas?

When black people express disgust with the Dems, the answer is "Where will you go?", and the Dems don't change because they think they have blacks (and progressives, and union members, etc) all sewed up.

If these groups don't vote for anyone, they're still not voting for Dems. Worth thinkin' about.

[pocket]

64. great, cut your own throat

and everyone else's

[Skidmore]

15. xultar, over the past 6 years, Dems have

not done a whole lot anyone of any hue. I'm equally sick of the DC leadership. In especially the past year, the Rs have handed them fuckup after fuckup tied in pretty bows and they don't even recognize them as the opportunity they represent. I'm at the point where I can see where losing a few incumbents may not be such a bad idea.

[WI_DEM]

10. I guess I disagree

because I've seen the Democrats on a National Level really make progress in opposing Bush in the last couple of years. Yes there are warring elements in the party, but on the whole I think Reid in the Senate, Pelosi in the House and Dean at the DNC have been very good and more and more democrats are taking on Bush and his agenda.

[BillZBubb]

26. Please elaborate!?

Bush has gotten virtually every regressive tax move he wanted.
Bush has gotten the trade policy he wanted.
Bush has gotten EVERY judicial appointee he wanted--every friggin' one without a fight. Except Miers--who the Repugs killed.
Bush has broken the law and spied on Americans without the Democrats making a serious move against him. Feingold tried and was abandoned.
Bush continues in Iraq exactly as he wishes. Murtha stood tall, and the rest of the Democrats ran for the hills. And now he's saber rattling about Iran and the Dems are silent or complicit.

The only thing Bush lost on is Social Security--and that wasn't because of Democrats on the national level. That was because of a bipartisan reaction at the grass roots. He lost on Miers and the ports deal because of rebellion from Repugs.

[converted_democrat]

67. What about...

CAFTA, the Highway Bill, The Energy Bill, The Bankruptcy Bill, The Prescription Plan, and The Patriot Act?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Vote issues, not party.

I've been a Democrat since 1965 and have (with 2 exceptions) held my nose and voted for the candidate the bosses trotted out as the "lesser of two evils".

No more. I don't mind the jerks playing politics with non-issues like naming airports but it's time we took them to task for backing the Republicans to save their precious seats and keep the campaign money flowing.

The "not as bad" excuse is just that. A way for the one Nationalist/Capitalist/War Party to keep up the illusion that this is a Democracy rather than the Oligarchy of the rich and powerful that it is.

[SongOfTheRayne]

18. Don't they realize? THIS IS THEIR CHANCE!!!!

This is their chance to prove once and for all that they are NOT 'soft on crime'. If they throw this away.....people will die. 0_o

[Disturbed]

31. Maybe all Progressives should join the Green Party?

The Green Party would a viable alternative if Catch 22 was not in play. What is he Catch 22? The Green Party has no chance in the Natl. Political Sphere due to lack of numbers and money. They will not obtain what is needed as long as Progressives keep saying: "The Green Party has no chance in the Natl. Political Sphere due to lack of numbers and money."

[EFerrari]

34. I'm a Green and this seems to me a very BAD TIME to

splinter progressives along party lines.

Our civil rights are at stake here. The lives we want for our kids and our elderly.

[cascadiance]

45. I don't want to split to the Green Party away from Dems any more than you.

... but it seems that we need to have SOME way to make the DLC understand that the Democratic Party should be driven to represent it's traditional progressive constituency, not well heeled campaign donors that have more interest in preserving the corporate status quo than helping the Democratic Party win. That's painfully obvious the way the last few elections have went!

If we are left without options, I think having a REAL threat from the Green Party or the like to siphon off the progressive vote will force them to either acknowledge that they care more about corporate domination (through either DLC pols or Republican rule) than they are about winning with their more "exposed" continuation of their efforts to take over and derail the Democratic Party, or perhaps enough pressure can be applied to make them LISTEN to the needs to move the Dem's party agenda back to representing the PEOPLE and not well heeled special interests. At some point this battle must be fought if we're going to have true representation in America. The question is when to do it, and how to do it so that we don't destroy chances of getting back political power if possible.

If someone perhaps with a significant enough following (perhaps George Clooney?) were to run as the Green Party candidate to the point we'd have something like what happened when Jesse Ventura won the Minnesota governorship, that would be a good thing. If it can be felt that that significant option exists and is REAL, then perhaps you'd have the Dem Party singing a different tune. The DLC and the Dems in power now though aren't listening to us though! That's what's forcing us into these measures! THAT IS the problem!

[EFerrari]

53. First, let's remember DU rules. We don't work against Dems here.

Let's respect Skinner's rules first.

Second: How is this about party affiliations. No matter your affiliation, the rule of law is at issue here. What a person choses to register for is their business. But supporting the rule of law is something any liberal can get behind.

Third, third parties may challenge the Dems in the most legitimate way. But, this isn't the issue nor is it the venue to do that.

We are here to forward progressive values. Let's do that.

:)

[cascadiance]

70. I want a Democratic Party that is truely for progressive values!

I don't want to be held hostage to a party that has pols representing it that don't! As I've tried to note in other posts here, my objective isn't to try to have people leave the Democratic Party. It is to help getting it to move more solidly back to it's core values. I still believe that. Now if we have to work through outside influences to help this happen, I'd like to try. I think ultimately if you play a Green Party card to force some of these pols' hands, the idea would be to eventually be a forcing function to get them to represent values that aren't being represented. That's what Democratic Primaries used to be too. As an analogy, people like Jesse Jackson used his candidacies some years back not as a means to "win" the presidency, but to force the other candidates (and ultimately the nominee) to embrace the values of his constituency. Ultimately they unify behind the nominee if they do the right thing.

I understand Skinner not trying to promote other party's agendas, but there are times when we have to question where this party is going and find ways to fix it when it's broken, not just accept things like the Republicans are being taught to do with Bush. Not questioning problematic policies is that breeds fascism later. We're a LONG way from that here, but as long as I try to qualify my misgivings, I'd like to feel some degree of freedom of entertaining other ideas on how we can force those in power to listen to us better. When people that could help elevate these voices are being forced behind the scenes to not compete in primaries (like what's happened in Ohio senate race, and perhaps Cindy Sheehan agasinst Dianne Feinstein here in CA), it doesn't give us a chance within the party to raise our voice.

[pinto]

73. Maybe we should work to build a Democratic party

that is more *effective* in representing our ideals and enacting those ideals into legislation. That means seats in Congress, seats in State legislatures, seats on County government and, yes, seats on local elected positions.

[EFerrari]

109. In all the fuss, I didn't see this. I think you're right, Pinto.

We all have to get local.

The breakdown seems to be at the national level -- thanks to the Thug media in part.

Local is powerful and rewarding. Maybe not as visibly sexy as a national issue or campaign.

But, it sure feels good to see the fruit of your work in your own town.

:)

[OKNancy]

28. I won't give up, because I'm a DEMOCRAT

the only party that has any chance to get rid of the Republicans. When I see problems I try to do something, not sit and complain. Democrats can be a lot more bold if we can WIN ELECTIONS in 2006 and 2008. Work on that!

[NightOwwl]

35. I've done a lot more than sit and complain.

Which is why I'm so angry right now. I have sent money to/worked for/supported my party without question for 25 years.

It's payback time.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

29. Well there are two roads

The way that politics are now is by the generation before us making bad voting choices. Voting whoever was for their party and thinking it was on good faith they'd do /everything/ that was beneficial for the country. There needs to be smarter voting and smarter assembly in who we allow to be in our offices and the previous generations failed in that.

If we jump ship because the past choices are now showing themselves, cause we're the 'if we do nothing now our children will suffer' children in yesterday's speeches, then we make the same mistakes that they already made for us. We fail even more.

Things are hopeless as they are. We have a few good oarsman and many lazy, not rowing oarsman. Sadly kerry or clinton or anyone can't row an entire ship on their own. They need everyone in the party working in synch and we don't have that. The only hope for our country now is to bite the bullet and accept things suck as they are and hope that the children of tommorow don't grow up to what we have now. Everything that is the bush administration is based on the blind eyes turned from yesterday's voters. It is, in itself, a good example of why not to do the same.

I can tell you from my own opinion, democratic politics will not get better until we change them around much, much more and the democratic party is no longer the old lazy party and becomes the party we want it to be, not just the soft spoken party. The party could stand to GAIN more policies, not lose them. We have fanatic left winged users here thinking environmental and gay right and even homeless policies should be abandoned for the chance to win. Forget them. What do YOU think this country could use to do better? Well....write in great succession and tell them that. And refuse to vote for them if they won't change. It's the worser road than voting for a democrat in hope they win, but, if we show them WE will roll over for them whenever a democrat is there to vote for, and not scrutinize them as politicians, THEY will roll over the same way for republicans they always tend to vote for.

Pick your top 5 favorite dems. The ones you personally believe are the heart and soul of the democratic party. What our goal should be is to try to vote only people in who have those merits and have a strong tactical party. Not fill it with fodder just to make it look big. The dems have proven even they can be swayed by republican lies if given enough bribe or lies. Is that any better for us?

Choice is your's, but, even if you drop your party you're still a person with ideals. Don't forget that. Vote only on your ideals, cause as much as I hate to say it, many here on DU are even in line with the freepers only with left wing goals. A party doesn't make you honorable or holy. It just makes you a party. We need a party that is made after us, and we ourselves need to be honorable.

[EFerrari]

36. We need to lead.

And we need to do it today.

[0007]

37. How long have you been here at DU? And now you're writing

this shit, because you're in a whimsy mood? You should be ashamed of yourself. You're going to go down without a fight? What are do doing to make a change?

[EFerrari]

42. Please let's try to remember, people are tired.

Every day we hear of yet one more atrocity being committed in our name.

And, we're not privy to the strategies the Dems are pursuing.

It's not unreasonable for people to get frustrated and exasperated.

In order to be effective, we will need to be patient with each other.

Today is a good time to start.

[NightOwwl]

47. You can check my profile to see how long I've been with DU.

As for the rest of your reply, no response is necessary since you rather would hurl accusations than think about what I said. But you are more than welcome to read post #35 if you would like to see in 50 words or less where I am coming from and why I am so disillusioned.

[0007]

59. You sound like a typical front runner. So if things don't go your way

during the fight YOU want to bail. I've read so many post like yours it makes me wonder why you'd waste your time even being here.

You think you're the only one disllusioned?

[EFerrari]

61. People, please, settle. We have real bad stuff to deal with.

Please let's not take it out on each other. :(

[NightOwwl]

63. What is the matter with you?

There is no need to be so hostile. It sounds like you are disallusioned as well, so I'm surprised you don't have more empathy.

Use the ignore button if my post upsets you so much.

[EFerrari]

66. Don't take it personally. People are upset.

We can do better than this.

[NightOwwl]

68. You're right.

Like I said before, thank god for my fellow DU'ers. :toast:

[EFerrari]

74. Yes, thank god for them.

:toast:

[0007]

72. When I get hostile you'll know it and I'm far from upset;

I don't ignore no one, but your sure welcome.

[EFerrari]

79. I didn't mean to insult you, Midland. Not at all.

This is a difficult time. That's all I meant to say.

[0007]

88. I undersand. No harm!

:hi:

[hippiegranny]

49. no, work to change it,

cause it is the only party that can undo what the asshole Repukes have wrought. Come on, people, this take my ball and go home shite is getting stupider by the minute.

[Raydawg1234]

51. The question is: cowardice, or collaboration?

[readmoreoften]

78. Or blackmail, I wonder in some instances...

[converted_democrat]

55. I have to say, I do agree with most of what you're saying..

The last 6 months have been really tough on me.. I spend 5-6 hours a day of my time trying to further democratic causes, and I'm not sure what I'm fighting for anymore.. I feel like I'm fighting for a party that couldn't care less for me, and it makes me heartsick.. I am really beginning to believe that both parties are just corporate whores performing for the highest bidder.. What other explanation is there? They have had so many opportunities to step up, and they've blown every shot that was handed to them.. It's almost like they're doing it on purpose..

I want with all my heart to believe that the Dem politicians are the good guys, to believe that they are working for a greater good beyond their pocket books.. I just don't know how much longer I can hold on to that belief.

[NightOwwl]

60. So many of us are desperate for our voices to be heard.

But we are being let down over and over and over again.

I used to think it was just about being gutless...but it's much worse. They are no better than the Republicans who put corporate interests above the concerns of the American people. I guess I knew for a long time, but it took Feingold's censure resolution to finally get it through my thick skull that the majority of the Dems in congress will never stand up for what is right if it means risking the status quo.

[pinto]

56. No. Putting your efforts in 2006, state and local elections

will help shape the Democratic party more than reneging on a national election that remains 2 and a half years away, with no announced candidates.

Doesn't have the same whiz bang as the national contest, I know. But it's how parties grow....and change.

ed for clarity.

[Ufomammut]

57. To quote the late Bill Hicks:

"I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs."

"I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking."

"Wait a minute! There's one guy holding up both puppets!"

[EFerrari]

58. Bill Hicks.

:)

[Rex]

62. Here's the real question - who do you turn to now?

I hate the two party system but the Dems are all we have, the only real shot at stopping Bush & crew. If you leave then it is kinda like giving up. Remember, when we give up the other terrorists win.

[EFerrari]

65. We turn to ourselves. We have to be the strong ones, it's our job

to draw the line.

Pull it out and get it out.

How many calls have you made today, DUer?

Make it happen.

:kick:

[Critters2]

95. "Stopping Bush & Co"?!!

WHAT are the DC dems doing to stop Bush?!! Nothing!!! We have no shot at stopping them, because those in Washington don't have the balls!!

[PetraPooh]

69. Problem IS, the elctions are bought and paid for nowadays anyway.

Before I worry about who is the Democratic rep for 2008; I want to be sure my vote will count, which isn't likely at this point. Secondly, I need to see more pressure placed against the the current admin and Repub legislators from "our" legislators. Then I'll worry about who the runner is.

[Neil Lisst]

71. The Democratic Party dedicates this song to NightOwwl ...

Back when he wasn't appearing on Starsky & Hutch or slapping his wife around, David Soul made this one hit wonder, which THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY dedicates to NIGHTOWWL.


Don't give up on us, baby
Don't make the wrong seem right
The future isn't just one night
It's written in the moonlight
Painted on the stars
We can't change ours

Don't give up on us, baby
We're still worth one more try
I know we put a last one by
Just for a rainy evening
When maybe stars are few
Don't give up on us, I know
We can still come through

I really lost my head last night
You've got a right to start believin'
There's still a little love left, even so

Don't give up on us, baby
Lord knows we've come this far
Can't we stay the way we are?
The angel and the dreamer
Who sometimes plays a fool
Don't give up on us, I know
We can still come through

It's written in the moonlight
Painted on the stars
We can't change ours

Don't give up on us, baby
We're still worth one more try
I know we put a last one by
Just for a rainy evening
When maybe stars are few
Don't give up on us, I know
We can still come through

Don't give up on us, baby
Don't give up on us, baby

[NightOwwl]

86. Ah shucks...

You are too sweet.

I'm blushing now. :blush:

[progressivebydesign]

76. Ya, give up. I really enjoy being ruled by the republicans.

Why can't people in this party understand that the party is also the party of moderates? I would love it if the Dems would stand up with Feingold, but they won't. For whatever their reasons, I have to believe it's because they realize that they have to answer to all of their consituents, not just the Democrats. Perhaps they seem cowardly to many, but I think the mindset is that movements like this censure, probably hurt us more than help us in the big scheme of things. The Democrats can only win when the moderates stick with us, and the Republicans come across party lines to vote for Democrats. I do wish that the censure would be supported, but I can understand the reason it's not.

The lack of party unity all around is disheartening, and is what holds us back election after election. People can give up all they want.. go ahead, but please don't complain about what we're left with, cuz it will be Republican. It's like the movement to trash Hillary constantly, or people who trash Ed Shultz from AAR. I'd suggest some DUers research the data on how badly our asses would get kicked in the next two elections if only the diehard liberals voted Democrat. Because you're tossing the moderates and the party crossers out when you insist on liberal purity.

[readmoreoften]

89. Okay but moderate isn't moderate anymore...

Moderate is WAY right of center. So do we just accept that we live in a right-wing country and work for the least radical right wing government we can get?

Let's be clear about how things are at the moment.

NEO-CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN:

* No Civil Liberties
* Massive Unending War
* Theocracy
* Unchecked Capitalism with No Concern For Labor Or Human Rights
* No Recourse to Abortion Except in Cases of Certain Death
* Anti-Gay Sentiments Must Be Fomented
* Total Control of Media

DLC DEMOCRAT:

* Will Pass the PATRIOT Act, But With Less Joy.
* A Little Bit Less Massive Unending War
* Make America a Faith-Based Nation, But In A Good Way
* A Few Checks on Labor Wrongs, But No Challenges to Most Abuses
* Okay with Creating Terrible Burdens On Certain Pregnant Women (Teens, Country Dwellers, Women Carrying Dying and Severly Deformed Fetuses)
* For the Unequal But "Humane" Treatment of Gays (At Best)
* Begging the Media to Be Nice

Sometimes I feel like my choices are between Pure Evil and Weak and Insincere. I promise you, Weak and Insincere will not prevail in the face of Pure Evil.

We need a resistance party. The damn moderates can hold their nose for once and pull the lever.

(All of this pretends that we actually have fair elections still, by the way.)

[Gregorian]

77. WE are the party.

They are our servants.

Now with that perspective, we can start to go forward.

[leftchick]

80. my moment was the Alito Non filibuster

fucking cowards.

[Pachamama]

93. That was my moment too....

I actually went and switched my political affiliation to "Undeclared" and meanwhile Senators such as Cantwell whom I had contributed to and who are seeking re-election, I wrote to them and said no more and how could they.

Yeah, it was the Alito Non-filibuster that took the air out of my balloon....I feel numb these days and while I'll keep fighting, I have lost a lot of faith in the democratic party. I'll vote democratic to try and stop the fascist state that we are evolving too, but I don't get my hopes up anymore.

I will admit that Russ Feingold is perhaps for me the one true patriot and voice in the Senate that seems to be beholden to no one except his conscience and the Constitution and the American People. Even Boxer who I have adored seems to be neutered lately....

:cry:

[leftchick]

94. How Are you Pachamama?

I am skipping the NC beach vacation in June for a property search in Canada. That is how I am doing, with or without my hubby.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Oh Great. All We Need. Yet Another Last Straw Thread.

Yeah, Nader. That'll teach em! Yeah, Green Party, That'll stick it to those dems!

Maybe, just maybe, the other dems need longer than FUCKING SUNDAY to be able to go over the censure motion and make an informed decision, followed by a strategy on how to proceed. Yeah, how dare they.

These melodramatic threads that crucify the dems each time they don't jump on the bandwagon of the day or speak the exact word for word statements we long to hear are really getting old. I'm sorry that comes off as harsh as it does, but I don't know how to soften it up. I feel like all sense of reasoning, deduction, objectivity and realism has left so many on this board. What can ya do.

[stepnw1f]

87. Good On You

cheers

[Beelzebud]

99. They signed the Patriot Act without reading it...

How many fucking days do they need to look at something and think: This is what needs to be done?

It's not like Feingold is making shit up. Bush needs to be held accountable.

Funny how the excuse is that htey didn't have time to read the censure motion, but when it was time to vote for the patriot act, wich destroyed the constititon, no one bothered to read the damn thing.

Typical...

[NightOwwl]

108. Who said anything about the Green Party?

I'm a Democrat, and will always be a Democrat.

I'm giving notice to the Dems in power. They have been silent for so long I don't even know anymore if they represent the Democratic ideals. Honestly, I'm not sure they even know what Democratic ideals are anymore.

If they want my vote thay are going to have to prove to me they deserve it.

[U4ikLefty]

83. I still ask that question daily, and I say....NOT YET!!! n/t

[stepnw1f]

85. No You Shouldn't NightOwwl... because you are the Party

as well as the rest of us sapps. We need each other.

[skipos]

90. I will never give up. nt

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

91. your post reminds me of the Boondocks comedy fella

He just stepped back to take a break and refuel. Time out to recharge, i think that is imperative for all of us at one point or another. I'm just posting again after over a full years break, i burned out at my old haunts. (You don't seem the type to need a whole dang year to juice up thou!)
Now I've found a new haunt, DU! Hi!

[Orsino]

92. Ask a different question: is your Party earning your loyalty?

If not, your choices are either to abandon it or to try to change it from within. While it could be said that we should fight to the bitter end, it is inarguably true that we are approaching a point of diminishing return. The willful apathy of our so-called "representatives" is not inspiring.

[harpo]

96. never give up, change the party by getting involved at precinct level

call your precinct/county chair and get busy finding a replacement.

[Beelzebud]

97. I'm feeling many of the same things... It's hard to support them

When they care so little about supporting us...

[mattclearing]

98. If you have to ask... n/t

[Acebass]

101. I have a vision of what my Democratic party is...

And if they don't live up to those standards they don't get my vote...
The party is fine, the people representing it? Thats another story...

and I also think all of us are ready for a revolution of sorts and we don't think they are getting mad enough...

I got an e-mail from Kerry today, something about drilling in the Arctic wilderness. I thought to myself "thats all well and good John but we the people are worried about other things right now"...

[Greeby]

103. WHEN IS MY VOICE AND THE VOICE OF OTHER LOYAL DEMOCRATS GOING TO BE HEARD?

When these corporate media whores swing their cameras towards the Black and Progressive Caucuses. And away from DINOs like Biden (D -MBNA), Lieberman (D - AIPAC), Feinstein (D - Military Industrial Complex) and Clinton (D - White House)

[WilliamPitt]

110. When?

When a divergence from your voice doesn't result in a chorus of "I quit!" from supposedly loyal Democrats.

Want to know why so few Dem politicians court our votes? Because we are, as a rule, the most unreliable voting bloc on the planet. We bolt the minute our purity is tested.

[rucky]

104. Explore new avenues of change.

the conventional channels are clogged with bullshit.