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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:33 AM
Original message
Democrats vs. Republicans on the War in Light of Cobra II
This is from two related posts at The Democratic Daily. See the original posts for multiple links to supporting articles. (Quotations are also clearer in the original posts).


Part I

The WMD Argument Revisited and Again Disputed
http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=2271

Cobra II provides new insights into the incompetence of the Bush administration in handling the Iraq war. The New York Times has articles this week based upon the information in the book.

The authors discussed why Saddam left open doubt as to whether he had WMD even after destroying them:

"Seeking to deter Iran and even enemies at home, the Iraqi dictator’s goal was to cooperate with the inspectors while preserving some ambiguity about its unconventional weapons — a strategy General Hamdani, the Republican Guard commander, later dubbed in a television interview “deterrence by doubt.”"

This explanation for Saddam’s actions has been written about before, but conservative writers ignored it as it didn’t fit into their narrative that Saddam actually had WMD. With virtually nobody buying these claims anymore, they are grasping at straws to excuse Bush’s behavior. Some conservative pundits are trying to twist this passage to justify Bush’s actions:

"The Iraqi dictator was so secretive and kept information so compartmentalized that his top military leaders were stunned when he told them three months before the war that he had no weapons of mass destruction, and they were demoralized because they had counted on hidden stocks of poison gas or germ weapons for the nation’s defense."

Their logic is that if even Saddam’s own generals believed that he had WMD, it was understandable for Bush to also believe this and to go to war.

Even if we didn’t have the evidence of the Downing Street Memos and former insiders that both Bush and Cheney planned to go to war even before 9/11, at best this would show that Bush was not a liar but merely incompetent. This ambiguity would justify efforts to get the inspectors back into Iraq. Once they returned, and failed to find evidence of WMD, there was no justification for pulling out the inspectors and going to war.

While the conservatives are wrong in using the question of WMD to justify Bush’s actions they could take some small satisfaction in that the arguments of some on the far left (as opposed to more mainstream Democrats) were also erroneous. I will elaborate on this in the next post.

Part II

Democratic Views on The War Revisited In Light of Today’s Knowledge
http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=2272

My previous post discussed the ambiguity created by Saddam as to the presence of WMD in Iraq prior to the war, especially prior to the return of the inspectors. While the conservative argument for going to war based upon WMD has been thoroughly discredited, some on the left are also wrong when they claim to have known with absolute certainty that Saddam did not process WMD. If Saddam’s own generals believed WMD was present, there was sufficient reason for the United States to see need to insist upon the return of the inspectors even if there was never justification for going to war.

The ambiguity as to the existence of WMD explains why some Democrats, such as John Kerry, saw reason to provide George Bush with the leverage to force Saddam to allow the inspectors back in. In retrospect, as Kerry has admitted, the vote for the IWR was wrong as George Bush could not be trusted with this authority. In retrospect, it is also clear George Bush was lying when he said at the time of the vote, “Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable. The resolution will tell the United Nations, and all nations, that America speaks with one voice and is determined to make the demands of the civilized world mean something.”

John Kerry had made it clear that the only reason he voted for the IWR was to give Bush the leverage to force Saddam to allow the inspectors to return. In his Senate floor speech at the time of the vote, Kerry said, “In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days–to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.”

William Pitt reported a similar explanation when Kerry was asked to explain his vote by journalists:

“This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career,” Kerry said. “I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That’s what I voted for.”

“The way Powell, Eagleberger, Scowcroft, and the others were talking at the time,” continued Kerry, “I felt confident that Bush would work with the international community. I took the President at his word. We were told that any course would lead through the United Nations, and that war would be an absolute last resort. Many people I am close with, both Democrats and Republicans, who are also close to Bush told me unequivocally that no decisions had been made about the course of action. Bush hadn’t yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney and that whole crew. Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You’re God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake.”

Pitt then explained that Kerry’s explanation was justified:

"History defends this explanation. The Bush administration brought Resolution 1441 to the United Nations in early November of 2002 regarding Iraq, less than a month after the Senate vote. The words “weapons inspectors” were prominent in the resolution, and were almost certainly the reason the resolution was approved unanimously by the Security Council. Hindsight reveals that Bush’s people likely believed the Hussein regime would reject the resolution because of those inspectors. When Iraq opened itself to the inspectors, accepting the terms of 1441 completely, the administration was caught flat-footed, and immediately began denigrating the inspectors while simultaneously piling combat troops up on the Iraq border. The promises made to Kerry and the Senate that the administration would work with the U.N., would give the inspectors time to complete their work, that war would be an action of last resort, were broken."

Democrats such as John Kerry, even if incorrect on the IWR vote, were correct in arguing for a return of the inspectors and the use of military force only should it be necessary, as a last resort, to disarm Saddam. This position was neither pro-war as some on the left claim, or a sign that Democrats were not willing to defend the country when necessary. Howard Dean, despite being mislabeled as a radical anti-war candidate by the media, held essentially the same position. On January 31, 2003 Ron Brownstein of the Los Angles Times noted that “In his Thursday comments, Dean said if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.”

Adam Nagourney reported a similar statement on February 10, 2003:

"But Dr. Dean said in an interview that he would support a United States invasion of Iraq if it was approved by the United Nations.

‘’Action with the U.N. is where we should be aiming at right now,'’ Dr. Dean said. ‘’We should be going back and set a timeline with the U.N. for absolute disarmament. I’ve chosen 60 days. And then there would be military action.'’"

Jack Tapper presented a similar report of Dean’s view in Salon:

"He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is — “as I’ve said about eight times today,” he says, annoyed — that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn’t, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

A look back at what was really known before the war, and what Democratic leaders such as Kerry and Dean said, disputes Republican claims that war was justified, that Kerry either flip-flopped or supported Bush’s decision to go to war, or that Democrats would not defend America if actually threatened. Despite the emphasis on trivial differences during the primary battles, Kerry and Dean stood together in being strong on demanding that the inspections continue, and in opposing going to war unless we were proven to be endangered.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Some of us just thought
the Administration was full of shit. It seemed a safe bet that if they said he had WMDs, he probably didn't. As we've learned in grotesque detail since then, at least 90% of what they tell us is little more than a full load of donkey crap.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. 99% donkey crap
and if we knew it and the rest of the world knew it, why not the democrats?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Plenty of reason to think they had WMD at the time
There was reason to believe Iraq had WMD--after all, we had the receipts.

The real question is not whether they had WMD. If you make this the question, you play into Bush's hands as there is no way to prove he knew there was no WMD.

The real issue is that regardless of whether there was WMD, there was no reason to believe we were threatened, justifying war. If he had well hidden chemical weapons (as there was plenty of reason to believe was the case) this did not present an imminent threat to the United States.

The question has to move from whether there was WMD as to whether there was justifiation to go to war. To do this, Democrats need to stop fighting among themselves over side issues here and stick to the main argument, where Kerry, Dean, and most Democrats all agreed.
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. If Kerry really believed that there was only a slim
chance that Bush was going to use his new-found authority to make war on Iraq he was NAIVE.

If we only get to choose between H. Clinton and J. McCain in 2008 I am going to be really pissed. I want a candidate that was smart enough to not give Bush authority to do anything!!!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Welcome to DU!
:toast:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. "I took the President at his word."
J, Kerry was either a fool or a liar. Anyone in politics &/or that followed politics knew that gw bush was a proven liar and back stabber. It was comlpetely obvious that the Bush Regime was going to invade Iraq, no matter if the Congress or the American people objected to it.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6.  William Pitt: "History defends this explanation. . ."
In retrospect it was completely obvious. For many of us who totally distrusted Bush it was obvious. However, with the evidence that was actually available at the time, it could not be said with certainty that Bush would not keep his word. Note that Willaim Pitt has backed up Kerry's argument based upon information actually available.

Besides, if Bush was not going to keep his word, the IWR didn't matter either way. I bet that no matter how that vote came out, Bush would have found a way to go to war.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wow, Ron. Still having Dean bear the onus for Kerry's vote on the IWR.
You presented Tapper's info, which really twists the facts of Dean's view.

I see today you are also comparing Feingold's effort for censure to being a Dean like move.

Has it ever occurred to you that these two men really really really have scruples? That they really mean what they stand for.



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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Must you continue to refight the 2004 primaries?
The primaries are over. Get over it. You perceive everything as an attack on Dean, and then distort what is said.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm agreeing with Dean reagarding Iraq in these posts. You have some sick compulsion to twist them into an attack on Dean which you must defend, and ignore what is really being said.

Tapper is not twisting the facts--several articles quote Dean as saying the same. Nor is this intended to be critical. It is to show that the Democrats, despite disagreements in the primaries, have stood together to both oppose Bush's policies on Iraq and to support defending America when necessary.

It is common for adversaries in a primary to find reason to attack each other, even if there isn't much substance there. After the primaries, Dean got over this and supported Kerry. He admitted that their views were really similar.

It's time for you to realize that the 2004 primary race is long over and stop your disruption of thread after thread, and your constant Kerry bashing, to attempt to revive these battles.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Time for me to realize.....
that I disrupt thread after thread. Ok. Now I feel better.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. How would you like it if I said this about those who supported Kerry?
"Both Dean and Feingold are much better men than their supporters"

I find that an insulting statement, and there is no need for it whatsoever.

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The comment is justified by the facts re some Dean supporters
You are proving to be a prime example. The problems from certain Dean supporters during the primaries is well known. So far there have only been isolated problems along these lines from Feingold supporters, so we can still hope that we don't see that aspect of the Dean campaign repeated again.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Perhaps you should read your own forum sometimes.
Perhaps I do need to get out some ugly stuff we have tried to put in the past. I absolutely will not take the blame here for hurting the party or hurting Kerry or hurting anyone.

I refuse to, and you need to back off.

I am a prime example of advocating for truthtelling. I think you know that.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Me back off?
It is you who keep causing these disrputions.

How can you call yourself an advocate of truth telling when you've told several lies in this thead alone?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Recognizing the problem is the first step to resolve it
If you truely realize how you have been disrputing thread after thread, hindering the attempts to present a unified front against Bush and the war, then you should be able to correct this problem.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. All my fault now that Democrats can't unify. Ok.
When I see an unfair statement, then I have my say. Then I get accused of not presenting a unified front.

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not what I said
Can't you ever respond honestly without twisting what was said?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Differentiation between Dean/Feingold and certain supporters
Also note that in my comments on Feingold and Dean which you distort, I specifically made the point of criticizing not them, but Dean supporters (which hopefully won't in the future also apply to Feingold supporters) who unnecessarily divide the party.

You are a prime example of this.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Oh, wait, because I supported Dean I am dividing the party?
Is that what you are saying?

I was a Kerry supporter in 04, but nothing matters if I don't bow down and scrape the ground.

I believe calling me a prime example of divisiveness might not be very nice.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. No, that is not what I am saying
Why must you respond to everything by twisting what is said?

You are dividing the party by going around here continually bashing Kerry. Afterwards you try to deny it--poor innocent me, I supported Kerry in 2004. Your denials don't change what you do.

You also create problems by disrputing any attempts at discussing things beyond the 2004 primaries.

Here I have a post to discredit the latest GOP talking points on Iraq in light of the relevations in Cobra II, and to discuss the unified message from most of the Democrats. Instead you try to turn it into a Kerry vs. Dean dispute again. As I said, the primaries are over. It's time to concentrate on the real enemy, rather than to have Democrats such as you repeat what have become GOP talking points to discredit Democratic opposition to the war.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. We just went through this the other night.
There was post after post saying Dean did not oppose the war, and making it sound like Kerry actually did.

If this is the way it is going to be when Dean is not running for anything, I will do as I said before.

I will get the word out we need to bring out all our old files and get ready. Such a damn shame.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That is not what was said
Again, you continue to distort what was said.

I'm assuming that you are speaking of the Will Pitt thread.

We were saying, as I'm saying here, that Kerry and Dean held essentially the same view. Both opposed the war.

As I mentioned previously, if you continue to bash Kerry by spreading the lie that he supported the war, you are just helping Bush's cause.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You are amazing, Ron. Amazing.
Absolutely amazing in the way you do things like this.

Kudos.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. All three, actually.
Dean isn't bearing the onus of Kerry's vote. But I do see the two men as being pretty close on the issue.

Kerry's already coughed up a mea culpa on that vote. Could we move on please.
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