This post may be a complete and total waste of time...

[WilliamPitt]

...but I'm going to try anyway.

Things have been pretty tense around here lately. I am guilty of adding to the tension, along with dozens of others. It would seem, to any casual observer, that there is now this huge rift on DU. One side of the rift might call it "progressives" vs. "DLCers," and the other side of the rift might call it "activists" vs. "moderates" or some such. I don't know; I am no good at putting words in other people's mouths.

The focus of this seeming rift seems to be centered around the Feingold censure move. Basically - and this is only my opinion - a lot of people have had their liberal and/or progressive credentials called into question because they think Feingold could perhaps have planned this move with more tactical acumen. There have even been a few YOU ARE WITH US OR YOU ARE TRAITOR SCUM threads, which personally freaked me out; if I didn't know better, I'd have looked at those and wondered when and how George W. Bush got himself a DU account.

So let me be clear.

1. Thinking Feingold could have swung this thing better DOES NOT make one "anti-Feingold" or a "traitor" or whatever.

2. Calling someone else's liberal and/or progressive credentials into question over a disagreement on tactics is obnoxious and uncalled for.

3. Similarly, calling someone a wild-eyed froot loop because of their passion over this issue, and their defense of Feingold's choice of tactics, is likewise obnoxious and uncalled for.

4. It seems a pretty safe bet that 99.9% of DUers agree that this censure is justified and timely. Debate over exactly how this has been done and should be done going forward should in no way cause such mayhem.

5. YOU ARE WITH US OR AGAINST US posts are spherically uncalled for; they suck from every concievable angle. They suck so bad they bend light. If someone posted a thread reading GEORGE BUSH IS A TERRIBLE PRESIDENT, YOU ARE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US ON THIS, I would spend that thread defending Bush until I got myself banned, simply because I want no part of ultimatums on a board like DU. They have no place here.

Gotta go to the store. If I burst into flame on the way, I will know this thread has failed. I'm bringing the fire extinguisher, just in case...

[northzax]

1. why do you hate America, Will?

hmm?

[usregimechange]

101. He is helping the terrorists!

[benburch]

2. See, trouble with you Will, is that you try to make rational sense.

I have concluded that there is little room for a totally rational viewpoint here recently.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. I think people just get frustrated.

People are so fed up with this administration and they lash out at each other because it is a bit of misplaced anger. I have felt it myself many times when I don't agree with what I see posted.

2000 seems like a lifetime ago. I see my country fading to crap more and more each day.

[Raksha]

48. I agree that it's mostly frustration and misplaced anger

that's at the root of all the bickering here. And it's NOT just anger at the Bush mafia (that goes without saying), but just as much (or more!) at our pink-tutu Dems who don't seem to have the guts to take a stand EVEN when Bush's approval rating falls to 33%.

[liberalnurse]

9. I sure do miss the

"good olde days".

[WilliamPitt]

14. Nader sucks

Better?

;)

[benburch]

25. How DARE you attack...

...Ralph Nader's sex life! :evilgrin:

[WilliamPitt]

28. YOU ARE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST NADER SUCKING

...or something.

:P

[liberalnurse]

63. Ahhhh yes......

That is like a hit of oxygen from my rebreather mask. O8)

[Pharaoh]

3. I support Feingold

we need more spine in the party.........

[WilliamPitt]

4. I like eggs

That isn't the point, either.

[Pharaoh]

32. Oh so your an egg lover!

well that's why you against freedom and democracy!

:sarcasm:

[Horse with no Name]

49. YOU EAT CHICKEN EMBRYOS?????

Well once the right to lifer's snatch this info and drag it back to their hidey holes....
I just don't know how we can protect you any further.:silly:

[JitterbugPerfume]

5. once again I find myself thanking you

for having plain old fashioned common sense

[MissB]

6. While I agree strongly with your statements,

I am sorely tempted to start a new thread with the title "GEORGE BUSH IS A TERRIBLE PRESIDENT, YOU ARE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US ON THIS."

On edit: And I don't feel the urge to start that thread to get you banned. I simply like to be contrary now and again.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. LOL.

That would be something to see.

[WilliamPitt]

12. I triple-dog dare you

[Midlodemocrat]

15. Will. I've got your back.

[MissB]

20. No fair.

*wanders off, muttering about trigger happy mods*

[Midlodemocrat]

22. LOL.

You are killing me.


*makes mental note not to ever, ever dis missb*

[deadparrot]

18. You'd probably make it to the Greatest page in about half a second.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

8. Well, some of us ARE wild eyed fruit loops.

:silly:

[im10ashus]

70. Um, don't you mean "froot loops?"

Just keeping it consistent with the OP. :-)

[EFerrari]

71. See? We can't spell plain English.

lol

[WilliamPitt]

74. Skuuuse me...

:P

[EFerrari]

82. Self awareness shouldn't be sniffed at.

It should be consumed with good, cold milk.

lol

[im10ashus]

76. LOL.

:rofl:

If the Bushistas have their way, it will be Olde English again.

[EFerrari]

77. And we'll all sound like the Farmer's Daughter.

:rofl:

on edit: Maybe Skinner will let me change my user name to the Wif of Bathe.

lol

[im10ashus]

94. STOP IT!!!!

People at work are looking at me like I've lost it.

I need an Olde English name now. :rofl:

I want to be Duke of Tenacity.

[EFerrari]

97. LOL!

Beowulf seems to be free? :shrug:

[im10ashus]

107. It doesn't get much Olde English than that.

There is a comedy sketch in here somewhere. ;-)

[EFerrari]

112. The monks always want to headline. Fuck 'em.

lol

[im10ashus]

113. I've always meant to ask you.

Is that Andy in your sig pic?

[EFerrari]

114. Yeah. It is. Naked and great and in a sink.

:)

[im10ashus]

126. Beautiful.

:-)

[bleever]

83. To be fair, others of us are

cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

[EFerrari]

88. Have nothing to do with this guy. He's a -pusher!

[LeftHander]

11. Yes it is tense...

In here....and out there...

Deeply distrubing. Horribly tragic and sad.

What hope do we have but rely on change and making it happen?

We desperatly need a leader to make the rallying call...and we need to recognize and respond to it when it happens.

[lonestarnot]

13. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the earth."

What's left of it when bushitler gets done with it...who'd want it?

[deadparrot]

16. Thanks, Will.

I agree. I'm not going to go into any great detail because I'm not in the mood for a flamewar at the moment, but thanks for voicing what I'm feeling.:hi:

[Mythsaje]

17. You're right...

I expect the occasional "you're wrong," even here. Hell, I object to some postings as a matter of course. There are certain things I just don't like. "Mann Coulter," for example, or using the word "Witch" when referring to someone who might be compared to a female dog. (I'm married to a witch, and I dislike it as much as I dislike the teens today using the phrase 'that's gay' when they mean to say something is 'stupid).'

I also don't like soldier-bashing (these kids are indocrintated early on, led to war, and have to fight both the enemy and their fellow soldiers if they choose to make a stand,) or criticism of other posters as being "plants" or "subversives" within DU. This just indicates the person firing off the criticism doesn't have enough on the ball to debate the issue rather than attack the poster. IT is a freeper tactic, and annoying.

Now, see, I have a lot of fun when debating freepers by doing both at once. Saying "you people seem to think" and then stating whatever it is, BEFORE knocking it into the dirt, is just too much fun for one person to have.

I expect more out of DUers...

Silly me.

[Blaukraut]

19. Thanks, Will

It needed to be said. In my 5 years on DU I've rarely seen things get this bad - primary wars notwithstanding.

[WildEyedLiberal]

21. Clap clap clap

Thanks.

I support the censure and I like Feingold, but I wish he'd have gone about this differently.

[DrGonzoLives]

23. You're right, it is a waste of time

It's far easier to troll and be immature than to discuss things like adults. It's the magic of the internet.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. You definitely have a point.

I am always amazed by the incivility posted on the 'net. Not necessarily at DU, but even emails I receive are so rude and condescending. I guess it is easier to take shots at people when you don't know them.

[mattclearing]

24. If you noticed, I was the one who pointed out that the "with us or traitor

scum" thread was straight out of the Bush playbook.

I just think Feingold was staking out his territory for the primaries. That's the only reason to not run this by the rest of the Senate caucus.

Shrewd move, and good for him. There's no reason to let other Dems who aren't willing to do this share credit for it.

He has to set himself apart from the pack and make a name for himself nationally, and this accomplishes that.

I'm all for it.

[WilliamPitt]

30. I did indeed notice that

:toast:

[mattclearing]

40. .

:D

[LeftHander]

120. guess im for doing something about Bush....nt

[mattclearing]

127. Yeah, but using Bush's rhetoric ain't the way to do it.

We've seen how effective that is.

[cynatnite]

27. Thanks for saying this, Will...

I've questioned Feingold's move and have wondered if it could have been better planned to get more support. I never posted about this because I'm still wrestling around with it.

I still think Feingold would make a fine president even though I don't always agree with him. It was the same with the SCOTUS hearings when he voted for Roberts. I hated that he did that.

I'm not prepared to change my mind on Feingold because of a few things I don't agree with. Hell, I didn't agree with Clinton on everything he did, but he was still a great president.

I'm like you. Ultimatums shouldn't exist here on DU. That belongs in repuke country.

[derby378]

29. Hey, I have no problem with what Feingold is doing at all

As far as I'm concerned, Russell Feingold is my choice for President in 2008.

Our mission should be crystal clear at this point. We must embarass Nero every chance we get, whether it be through censure or through Congressional defeats or whatever. We tried playing by the rules in 2004, but it became obvious to many of us as the campaign wound on that the current crop of Republicans had no use for the rules. So now it's guerilla warfare from now until November 2008.

As for the "either with us or against us" angle, this is how I feel about it - if you're with George W. Bush, then you're with the terrorists. The other side may have a lot of facets and squabbles, but they're all better than what we've got right now.

[carolinalady]

31. Agree-I have recently lost any desire to participate in any thread.

Not sure if it is DU burnout or Spring Fever, but mostly I just read not post. I don't even feel like I can articulately present a position right now.

[Generator]

33. Oh please

I haven't seen endless you must be with Feingold or not posts. I've seen posts questioning him and supporting him but mostly what I've seen is honest DESPAIR at the state of the Democrats, Republicans and this thing called America. Despair, frustration, and the veil being lifted. And the "with us or against us" is exactly the YOU MUST vote for Democrats at all times or you are a traitor. Even if they don't represent us anymore. To state that it appears we have no representation is what many are feeling. "Should I leave my party?" That's a big thread that's still here.

I think many feel our party has left us. Standing alone wondering when?Feingold is standing alone-having done the unthinkable-calling HIS party-OUR party out to do the thing that should have been done a long time ago. When? When is the perfect time to fight the descent into fascism? When? And I think we all feel kinda alone these days. When someone stands up for us and acts like a Dem and risks something-well heh yeah-that's something. The rest is a bunch of words. Finally some action. The barest bit of accountablity. The smallest bit. And what I'm afraid we are witnessing is the veil coming of the Democratic party. And then we will see who is "with us" or against us. The rest is words. Actions are everything.

[leftchick]

51. Thank You!

there are many many more "where the hell are the Dems supporting Russ" than Russ' actions threads. The fact we do not have Democratic Representatives taking advantage of the huge opportunity Sen. Fengold gave them and us is THE isssue.

[Usrename]

118. But what about our Democratic leaders that support Bush?

Of course they can't support censuring the President. Russ should have checked with them before offering the censure motion. And Harkin is now going to second it. Now what will they do. This is so wrong, to just do something like this, without checking it out first with the Party Leadership.

Some of our party leaders rely heavily on their corporate backers. You know who some of them are. What are they supposed to do? Their backers actually believe in the Bush doctrine. They love the war. Their corporate masters are making tons of money and have real power. Are they supposed to just throw all of that away? Abandon their centrist elitist doctrine? How can they? Won't their corporate backers get upset? They might lose their grip on the handles of power, be forced to stop raping our economy, our nation, our planet. How could they be expected to make such a choice?

As the OP so cleverly noted, this censure vote might force them into a position where they have to decide whether they are "with us, or against us". Declare it openly. This is not fair. They won't be able to work against us secretly any longer. They will have to declare loyalty to the corporate masters and vote against censure, or declare loyalty to us, the American people and vote to censure the President. How unfair to make them make such a difficult choice.

Thank Will, for pointing this out so clearly to me. No one should ever say "you're for us, or against us". It's just not fair to know where an elected officials loyalty really lies. They will have to tell the truth and that can ruin the whole fascist agenda for them. Darn.

Thanks again, Will.

Russ might not survive this! I fear for him!

His courage is astounding! Acknowlege it, dammit! He is facing true monsters directly in the eye! God bless him!

[stop the bleeding]

34. "froot loop" ?

I never knew it was spelled like this, learn something new everyday.

Good post Will, I have always been amazed at how DU does self examinations whenever divisive topics arise.

Thanks for bring reason and clarity once again

[WilliamPitt]

75. Indeed

[stop the bleeding]

80. I will never look at Froot the same again - thanks again Will

:rofl::headbang:

[EFerrari]

81. And colorful breakfast cereal. I take that to all flamefests.

:P

[radfringe]

35. yeah, timing could have been better

however - if not now - then when? What should have been the "ideal" time?

Newspapers reported that senators were taken unawares -- well to that I say CRAP

we knew about it the day before, C-Span had it flashing on the screens, CNN had it as a crawler, blogs all over the place were buzzing with it - how could they not know?????

so it leaves me with 3 possibilities

1. The papers have it screwed up
2. Senators are in that same sort of bubble that bush* lives in
3. Senator's staff are tired and overworked

There are two issues here - one up front and that being bush* broke the law with no-warrant wire-tapping

and one in the background - that being able to express a differing opinion freely, without one's patriotism being called into question

[riona]

36. DU is great

no herd mentality required

[Cleita]

37. I dunno. As a bleeding heart liberal I sometimes wonder

why the left-of center group think we need them and their corporate pandering to take our country back. In their estimation, no other position is needed because they know what's best for the Democratic Party.

[JuniperLea]

38. I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Democrats are Democrats because they are free thinkers who refuse to walk lock-step with anyone. ANYONE!

As far as being civil to one another...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=567279

snip -

"I'm a little more than annoyed that we don't have better things to do than to squelch someone else's ideas and creativity by being rude to them... "in public".

[Vinnie From Indy]

39. I can sympathize with the your viewpoint, but...

I believe that rational people will see through the hyperbole. Don't sweat it!

[berni_mccoy]

41. How long do we have to wait for the Democratic Leadership to DO SOMETHING?

The Wiretap issue has been out there FOR MONTHS. Then we find out that the Repubs AREN'T GOING TO ALLOW AN INVESTIGATION?

When are we going to stop waiting for "the mugger accidentally hit himself over the head?" Well he DID HIT HIMSELF IN THE HEAD, SEVERAL TIMES. And the Democrats keep taking a beating despite it.

I think people who are criticizing Feingold's move and/or tactics need to STEP ASIDE for new leadership. Our current leadership certainly isn't working.

[RazzleDazzle]

42. Oh, stop trying to be referee and/or mediator and arbitrator

it doesn't work, it's annoying, and you don't wear it very well on top of it all. It ain't your place and it makes you look arrogant. You don't like the atmosphere here, take some time off.

[file83]

91. I like the part where he tries to come off being a diplomat - but then

turns right around and lists his (boo Feingold) arguments complete with numbered bullet points. :rofl:

Give me a figgin' break. Talk about a wolf in sheeps clothing...

[RazzleDazzle]

110. Oh, how funny. I didn't even get that far

my eyes glazed over

[Iowa]

103. But RazzleDazzle...!!

...how will we know what it all means unless someone explains it to us?

Mr. Pitt, you are a good writer. I usually agree with you and occasionally post comments in support of yours. And I doubt that anyone would seriously call your progressive credentials into question. You're one of the good guys.

It is also my impression that DU is made up primarily of bright, sincere, well-meaning, progressives who can think for themselves. Regarding your original post (and in particular, the five points): What you are saying there almost goes without saying. There's really no controversy or "courage" (as one poster gushes) in it. Decrying crass pronouncements and ultimatums, and the accompanying lack of civility is akin to standing up for truth, justice, and mom's apple pie. But it's a sure-fire way to generate a stream of accolades, especially when presented in a thread all on its own, along with a dramatic title.

It seems to me that when someone encounters a post that causes them to "freak out", they should either just let it go, or address the issue where it will probably be buried deep within the offending thread - where the audience will probably be relatively small.

[RazzleDazzle]

111. Boy have YOU got it pegged, methinks

But it's a sure-fire way to generate a stream of accolades, especially when presented in a thread all on its own, along with a dramatic title.

[fed-up]

43. Politics lately is like being in an abusive relationship-sweet talk and

hints of improvements to come, then wham, back to the same old, same old.

I think a lot of us here on DU were hoping that the Censure Resolution would once and for all show us that our Dem leaders would put their CONSTITUENTS and the CONSTITUTION over their CAREERS, but it looks like that may not be the case after all.

As I was told by a counselor many years ago after ending an abusive relationship:

"ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS."

Yes, we are very FRUSTRATED and emotionally spent and don't know what more we can do.

We are on overload, our constitution is being trampled, votes don't really count, the war is still going with casualty and injury counts continually increasing on both sides, money is tight, health care is unaffordable, our kids talk of moving out of the country, peace activists are spied on and considered "terrorists", continued terra alerts (even though manufactured) and the threats to life as we know it due to global warming are all having a huge impact on how we relate to others.

WE ARE FED-UP and are looking for some concrete actions on the part of our democratic leaders, and we don't think that is too much to ask.

WE DESERVE BETTER!

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Ya wanna see a complete and total waste of time?

Check my journal...:P

[file83]

99. Your latest entry is very interesting...

...keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

[Anser]

45. with or against

When I saw the post that said something to the effect that "You are with us or you are TRAITOROUS." I at first thought it was a joke post, or at the very least; Irony.

I actually posted a reply pretty early that simply asked: Is this post serious, or is is an ironic jab at Bush's brand of "with us or against us" rhetoric?

Later, when the post had made it near the top of the greatest page (!), I rechecked the thread and saw that my reply was not there. I'm not sure how that happened. I'm pretty new here, so maybe there is some sort of vote down system in place, or something else that could account the missing post. Or perhaps there was a computer glitch (I never looked at the thread immediately after posting it to see if it was ever there).

Or perhaps it was some sort of censoring.

Anyway, its a sad day when we as a community start sounding just like them. Spewing hate and having a spine are NOT the same thing.

[WiseButAngrySara]

78. LOL! A "joke post!" Welcome to DU!

"It was the best of times, and it was the worst of times."

:hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. Which is the "spewing hate" version?

Would that be the censure?

:shrug:

[Rebelry]

46. Thank you...

I've noticed an alarming trend on DU to paint things in black and white- "You're with us or you're a traitor"...

It isn't just this thread, it was also in response to Sandra Day O'connor's comments about this administration...

Thank you for bringing this board back from the brink.
Reb

[IsItJustMe]

47. Some degree of patience is called for. The last foot has not dropped on

this issue and we don't know the whole story. Most of what we are hearing and sometimes repeating is media spin. Give it some time and see what happens when this gets out of the Judiciary committee.

But if you are a true believer in the censure motion, like I am, get busy and call your Senators. Action is always more powerfully than complaining.

[dogday]

50. This is as good a thread as any to say this

I have posted many articles today:

100 Seniors marching because there food staples are being cut by Bush

H.R. 1606: Time to ACT-NOW!!!!!

Internet Backlash Stalls Jersey Civility Bill

Pa. seizes paper's computer hard disks

Shocker: Senate Republicans Screw Veterans Again

Women's rights haven't fared well with Bush


Your post alone Will, has merited more posts than the total of these posts above....

Now that I look at it, Maybe my posts are just a waste of time, nobody cares about these important issues, but they care about whether you wonder if this post matters Will....

[fed-up]

52. I read them, just am too upset to post replies or comments n/t

[Swamp Rat]

53. I think we should contact our senators and demand they support Feingold

While folks waste mental energy worrying about whether it was a poor tactical choice, in the manner it was done, we could be hammering the crap outta the republicans and Bushler.

STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT!!!

SUPPORT FEINGOLD!!!

[fooj]

56. Well said.

:hi:

[Coexist]

54. You can't control how someone will act - "IT" is out there now

Senators need to learn that you can't control how someone will act, only how you choose to react to that.

You can piss and moan about protocol. That won't make Feingold's statement go away.

At this point, its lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[fooj]

55. It's all about doing the right thing. Period.

It really doesn't matter what one believes "politically"...Little Lord Pissypants broke the law and he must be held accountable. Now, we can debate HOW until the cows come home, however, the fact of the matter remains---he must be held accountable. I, for one, am deeply grateful that someone, ANYONE, has the courage to step up to the plate. It's about time. The time for waiting on someone to "swing" it better is long gone, IMO. A little party unity goes a long way.

Peace.

[Swamp Rat]

93. Feingold has stepped up to the plate and hit a single

He is now on first base. :patriot:

Are we going to bring him home? :patriot:

:)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

115. Great post fooj! Thank you! :)

Peace and :hug:

[understandinglife]

57. K&R.

Be The Bu$h Opposition - 24/7

[understandinglife]

116. Will, I did the "K&R" earlier, to indicate to you and others here ...

... that I'm more than capable of taking your oblique "call out" of my post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x655069

And, now I want to tell you, one more time, exactly how I feel about the current situation in America:

You're either with Feingold and Conyers OR you are a traitorous, neoconster, bushit, corporatist war criminal.

Clear.

Period.

Sun Tzu: "On hemmed-in ground, resort to stratagem. On desperate ground, FIGHT.

I'm now ONLY in fighting mode.

Our Republic is endangered, to the point of near-extinction, and no other response is responsible.

Be THE Bu$h OPPOSITION -- 24/7

This isn't a Dem issue, or a Green issue, or a Republican issue, or a black issue, or a brown issue, or a whatever issue - it is "We the People ..." against the most dangerous threat this Republic has confronted since the Civil War.

[EFerrari]

119. If you repost this, I will kick it.

I understand what Will is doing. He's trying to calm the board down, and, that's a worthy goal. We need to be calm enough to think rationally.

But any rational person should be able to see, our government has been hijacked by felons. And we need to deal with that. Sternly with them, kindly with each other.

I'm on board, UL. I'm on board.

[understandinglife]

121. "Sternly with them, kindly with each other." Perfectly stated, Beth.

I have the original OP in my DU Journal and you posted in it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x655069

I just wanted Will to know that I cannot be an apologist for people who have taken an oath (as I did) to defend Our Constitution and then do anything, absolutely anything, other than hold Bu$h and his neoconster regime accountable for all the laws they have broken, all the atrocities they have committed.

Reasonable, educated people struggle to avoid approaching situations as binary.

But 'life or death' happens to be a reality that at certain moments one either confronts, robustly and comprehensively, or one guarantees 'death' is the outcome.

When Scalia stopped the recount on Saturday, 9 December 2000, the gun was pointed straight at the heart of Our Constitution. SCOTUS started to squeeze the trigger on 12 Dec 2000. The gun fired when not one single Senator supported the Congressional Black Caucus members in Jan, 2001. The patient has been in intensive care ever since. Whether "patient America" will ever regain consciousness and walk out of the hospital is not quite the miracle Terri Schiavo would have required to regain function as a sapient being, but it's damn close.


Be The Bu$h Opposition - 24/7

[EFerrari]

122. No apologies, none.

There is a useful direction, then there's the direction we have been tripping through these long dark years.

I'm ready to walk in the light.

/typo

[autorank]

124. Desparate ground is correct. The public will lead us...

...which is fine with me. We need to provide a strucure. That is solely lacking.

Feingold was and is right, Conyers was andis right.

Gore is right. Clark is right.

Dean's so damn close to right, he he needs to be launched.

Time to fight. This clown Bush signed a bill from Congress, according to Waxman, that was changed after it left congress.

WHAT'S NEXT, CANCELLING ELECTIONS.

FIGHT.

[mod mom]

128. Amen to that-Stay your ground UL!

[JuniperLea]

58. Too funny! They got their knickers in a twist too soon!

Looks like a handful of Senators are jumping on board with Feingold;) Several new threads started in the past few minutes.



Take that, ya dumbasses!


Oops! Did I say that out loud? Pardon me! Heh!

59. you must be a libra n/t

[WilliamPitt]

61. Scorpio

[LisaLynne]

60. This place is the greatest when we can discuss things ...

even things we all feel differently about and not get all flamey. :)

[Gregorian]

62. Thank you for the first laugh I've had all day!

I know. It's serious. But "it sucks so bad it bends light."? That's too good.

Please do not spontaneously combust. Your cool for that.


I'm the one who's about to combust. I buy a beautiful property on the coast of southern Oregon, and I'm not only selling it, but looking for a rental house where I can acually fucking live in the meantime. God damned Bush and his logging. They're cutting every tree around me. AT NIGHT! Sick. Just sick. My head hurts. Enough about me. I'll make my fortune selling it. But I don't give a crap about cash. I wanted a home. We now return you to DU.

[blondeatlast]

64. Reason? You are calling for REASON on DU?

Kudos for the courage, anyhow. I couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, the people who need to read your post the most, won't.

[byronius]

65. I get pretty hot about this issue -- but refrain from unleashing.

Reagan said "Never speak ill of a fellow Republican." I tend to do that for Democrats, except maybe in Joe Lieberman's case, a little, and look forward to the day when the public debate is primarily between liberal and conservative liberals, instead of between us and Servants of the Dark Lord.

Always the wise head, Mr. Pitt. Thanks.

[rucky]

66. Like clockwork! n/t

[5X]

67. Bush eats babies on national TV...

one lone democrat calls for censure, at least until
thousands of emails and phone calls are recieved.

[Kerry fan]

68. Did Feingold actually, publicly accuse democrats of "cowering"?

I agree with censuring AND Impeaching Bush. But I do wish democrats would stop publicly dissing democrats.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

69. Thanks for the good laugh and common sense!

[Buddyblazon]

72. As more of a reader and seldom poster....

I have found the whole Feingold thing tiring.

I don't know about the rest of you...but I feel like I'm at my wits end. You know that feeling of expectation where the anticipation builds to the point where it feels like something is going to burst inside you? And finally, the focal point of that expectation fails.

And now I feel gravely disappointed. Almost depressed. It has now become an obvious fact that our elected Democrats will never find a backbone.

I know that we are the minority. I know how things work. But the complete lack of solidarity is just unbelievable to me. All the phone calling, all the letters and emailing are fruitless. These people don't care about how their constituents feel.

The same polls that reflect that our populous has lost faith in the Republicans in congress show that they feel the same about the Democrats. And yet still they do nothing to stand up for the MAJORITY of Americans. REGARDLESS of whether any of their motions are passed. The people want a group to stand up and say, "enough is enough". And that is NOT the Democrat party. That party....does not exist.

I was registered as an Independent from '90 until this last general election. I've always leaned left. And have voted for nothing but Democrats. But I have to say, the Democratic party has lost me. I despise most Republicans because of their lack of concern for their fellow Americans.

But who am I to turn to? We no longer have a two party system. We have one big party that's beholden to their corporate donors. Save a few brave Americans like Feingold and Dean, they could give a rats ass about us. They can't relate to any of us. The rich win elections. And the rest of us suffer the consequences.

This is how it's been as long as I can remember. And I now realize that I will not live to see a change in that.

I am not a defeatist. But after watching all the Democrats cower in fear, I think I need to become a realist.

[EFerrari]

87. We can swing this, Buddy. Being a realist also means

considering possible outcomes as well as calculating centers of power.

This is a center of power, right here, when we work together.

I certainly understand and share your frustration much of the time.

I think the best use of DU is to consolidate and amplify the voice of the base and deliver it in consumable portions to elected Democrats. And when we do that, we know we make a difference.

fwiw

[Minnesota Libra]

73. I've been flamed for being a bit too conservative and yet I agree.........

......with you on most everything you said. Boy, what does that say about my political views of late.

The ONLY thing I disagree with you on is # 5 so here I go into a regular unfettered flaming of your... :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Seriously though, if someone flamed the crap out of the idiot boy king and his minion I'd say they had their head in the right place.:shrug:

Otherwise, you are right on.:hug:

[izzybeans]

79. I guess I see this as second nature on this forum.

that is the point on which we disagree (re: #5 being unusual or not to be expected). Perhaps I have overlooked the renewed division, but it seems par for the course.

Either way the continued or periodic divisiveness is counterproductive and alienating. Thank you for your post. Normally these calls fall on deaf ears, hopefully someone of your stature can convince allies to look each other in the eye once again. Strength in numbers can be held in check by consistent and civil critique. There must be room for debate and solidarity. Criticism and trust.

[EFerrari]

85. That sounds like CommiePinko DLC talk.

:)

[izzybeans]

130. That's right and never you forget it troll/freeper/DINO.

;) This PinkoDLC Communist will be here yucking it up in the mean time :sarcasm:

[Neil Lisst]

84. It's possible to approve the censure move but ...

... but still accept that Feingold launched early and on his own because he's staking out the left in the 2008 primary, making himself the voice of the left.

I like Feingold, like his politics, and could learn to like him on the ticket. I accept that he is doing this for HIM as well as for US.

I also accept that good Democrats differ on things like this. Everyone with their own candidate isn't going to like what he did, and everyone who thinks we need to move towards the middle won't like it.

I condemn all the name calling between those who attack and defend the DLC or the far left. As I have said many times, first we win, then you guys can have at each other.

[EFerrari]

90. Lol! Okay. I want to know when we're done winning.

:evilgrin:

[Neil Lisst]

96. hey sf! see, I think first you get the HOUSE, then you run it

the fight for the House happens when we get the House

same for Senate

[EFerrari]

100. Well, please pay attention to what is going on here in CA,

aka, Big Casino.

There's a coup in progress. They put Ahnohd in so they could remove our Sec of State who decertified the Republican voting machines.

The struggle is on NOW. We need help NOW.

They can flip CA mechanically and come up with a bs narrative later. That's what they excel at.

The voting rights activists have done a great job. But, they need support.

Can you imagine how much Thug money has gone into shoving Republican voting machines down the throats of CA voters?

The party is silent. The media is nearly silent. We need hep out here.

S O S

[Neil Lisst]

102. good luck on that!

I don't know how our side can fight them on these machines in all 50 states. They have taken cheating to a whole new level.

[EFerrari]

108. CA will not sit for this. But whether our not sitting will be

successful, we don't know.

Any way to get the heads up out, much appreciated.

:)

[Peggy Day]

132. I contributed to Debra Bowen for SOS

and volunteered to give time to her platform.

[WiseButAngrySara]

86. Good post Will. The voice of Reason to quell the vox populi du DU???

This line was really funny!

"they suck from every concievable angle. They suck so bad they bend light"

:rofl:

[Imagevision]

92. I'm glad Kerry came out and backed Feingold

[Rex]

95. I will not follow your 5 laws!

:flamethrowerdude:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

98. Ah. It is your #4 that bothers me - The "timing" issue! I say

"let's do something NOW !" Let's stand up against this evil, evil dictator TODAY - about this issue and everything else.

We've been doing the same with Iraq, talking, and talking, debating and debating, about getting out of Iraq - but the "timing" isn't right. I still go back to what Kucinich said in the debates -- and I paraphrase -- We need to get out NOW - there will be no victory in the end, just more lives lost. So just erase those years and save those lives and get out now.

I challenge all DUers - when the hell IS a good time to stand up and do what's right? I think last week, last month, last year....

[MichiganVote]

104. I seem to recall the same kind of monday morning quarterbacking

when Conyers held his committee in the room he was summarily allotted in the basement of the capitol some months ago. Hard enough doing anything without someone saying you should do everything.

[frustrated_lefty]

105. Well, hell, there goes the purge. *pout*

[LeftHander]

123. yes...what were we thinking...silly lefties....fighting among ourselves..

now it is time to get back to Hillary and Joe support and figuring out how to woo moderate republicans with talk of being okay with abortion limits, and some measure of protection for marriage, most people think those gay people aren't right, we can fix them....we can work with GOP on that and tax cuts, everyone likes those. We might be able to get some Sr. care budget increased for Medicare...maybe even a new road or levvee or two...Maybe Iran is a threat and we SHOULD do something now while we are in the area....if we supprort the Preseident in a time of war we will be looked on as being good americans and they might not drill in Alaska...if we ask real nice..and stop harping about laws...and warrants....it is all so clear now...the constituion is not in danger. We have the greatest democracy that money can buy....and we have lots of money....well some of us do any way....and they care about us...don't they?

Will? They do they care about us don't they?

Will?

Yaahhhhh Of course they do...

I think I am actually understanding now..it is so much better to be wealthy...and white..oh and STRAIGHT...and male....I like that. Yes we are all in this together can't rock the boat now....might swamp the boat while the GOP is skippper...we have god and jesus....TV and debt and the highest standard of living in the world....we can't give up now. It's not so bad. Yeah a few people get killed...but lots of people die every day. It is more important we all stick together and work within the system. Even if the GOP is changing the system to make it not work anymore...we still can be more like them...I'm IMPORTANT doggone it...AND I'M going to take what I can get and LIKE IT.....yessiree....

I'll just sit down now and let the big smart men plan a safer world for me and my TV...they know everything and know how to protect us. If we play nice we'll be okay...

We will be okay won't we?

Won't we?

Will?

Will...will we be okay?

Will?

Tell us the plan Will....tell us how we are going to win back the Congress....with candidates backed by the same companies that back republicans.

Tell us Will how we convince the American people that we are worthy of leadership in a time of war and terror...

Tell us Will how the nation will stop from becoming "One nation under god" like the TV preacher man says...

Tell us why we shot those babies in the head Will....they had weapons of mass destruction I heard....yes tubes of somekind in a mobile lab.

What are we to do with those homosexuals Will....it's okay to not support them right...we can bargin with that issue...won't hurt anyone but some fags...little set back for human rights...but hey we torture and noone in washington seemed to mind...don;t hear much about that anymore on MSNBCFoxBS.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[DrGonzoLives]

129. Clearly

The only answer is to purge the party of anyone who disagrees with you on anything.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

106. I do believe you've wasted my time Will. I also believe that we don't

have that much Time left. Our government is becoming more and more fascist, the pace escalating, new incidents reported daily. Bush broke the law and is continuing to break the law, period. Not to Censure him is aiding and abetting. Period.

[sheelz]

109. 6. Managing expectations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x548538

Remember Skinner warned us of this:

2004 was our first presidential primary season, and we have learned a lot since then. Perhaps the most important thing we learned is that there are many things that are simply out of our control. If you plan on spending any time here during the election season, you would be wise to accept that fact.

Let me be clear: Occasionally this primary season is going to get ugly here on DU. Since these are mid-term elections, they shouldn't be as bad as 2004 was (thankfully). But if you are the type of person who pays attention to politics, and cares about the direction of our country and our party (and if you're on DU, you probably are) then rest assured that you will find plenty to upset you on Democratic Underground during the next nine months.

Democrats will pick sides and get into arguments and sling mud and say mean things about other peoples' candidates. There is very little I can do to change that fact, because that's what happens during a political primary. If you can't handle people saying mean things about your primary candidate, then you probably shouldn't be spending so much time on a discussion forum devoted to politics. Remember that your happiness is your own responsibility. You always have the option of not clicking on threads you don't like, using the ignore function, or even logging off of Democratic Underground for a while.

[KoKo]

117. It was a waste of time. Spokesperson for Progressive Dems Organization

trashes the very folks he is supposed to be representing. I'm a PDA Member...and I find your views offensive. I have friends who are PDA Members...they might also find your views offense if they knew you were going around baiting people on a Democratic Web Site.

I hope you can "get a grip" on this because it's unprofessional and would offend alot of people who don't know you as you appear on this board...out there in PDA Membership.

[johnaries]

125. These are trying times, for all of us.

The tension here on DU is just a symptom of our frustration. However, the "you are with us or against us" meme is a Neo-Con tactic and is a dangerous road.

Since DU has the wonderful new Journal feature, I noticed while adding some of my previous posts that I could be considered a "flip-flopper". I had one post saying "we should all vote Dem this election", and I had another post saying "I am proud that Dems can't agree, because it proves that we are Independent Thinkers".

To be honest, I still think that we need to maintain our Independent Thinking. However, if we want to accomplish something, we have to learn to COMPROMISE. Our nation was built on compromise. The Constitution is nothing more than a series of compromises.

When 2 sides take opposing positions, usually the Truth lies somewhere in between. When both parties can come to a compromise, the compromise is usually much closer to the Truth than either side.

All of us here on DU are very passionate about our beliefs. That's why we are here. But no one here will argue against the fact that our nation is under attack from within, and that the very foundations of our Democracy are at stake. If we want to reach a viable strategy we need to be able to discuss the issues dispassionately and learn to find a working compromise that we all can live with and support.

At the same time, we must realize that every now and then everyone just needs to "vent". All of us sooner or later come to DU to vent their frustrations, because we know we are among friends and at least someone here will sympathize with our frustrations.

However, after we have vented our frustrations, we all need to just "let them go" and figure out a way to work together to solve this mess that our country is in. In extreme circumstances, sometimes the old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a very useful axiom.

So, let's all vent our frustrations and get them out of our systems, then apologize to those you've pissed off, and have a group hug. And then decide TOGETHER just what the hell we're going to do to solve this mess TOGETHER. NOBODY is going to be 100% happy - except maybe the RW'ers if we can't learn to work together. We need to "prioritize." Let's solve the immediate problems, and then we can argue among ourselves on the minor details.

Questioning someone else's dedication is counter-productive. "You are with us or against us" is a Karl Rove tactic. Don't fall into that trap.

[radio4progressives]

131. Interesting... I haven't seen these kinds of threads over the Censure

I've seen a few, (two or three max) call into question the timing, or strategy..

but YOU ARE WITH US OR YOU ARE TRAITOR SCUM threads ????

pointed to DU members? or Congress members?

c'mon Will... seems a bit, hmm, reactionary to me... :shrug:

[sendero]

133. What I find hilarious..

... is listening to folks bitch about Feingold not doing it "the way they think it should be done", when their fucking horse never does anything but send out emails to the faithful.

Personally, I value action, ANY ACTION, over more god damned nothing we've been getting for 5 years.