Does the US Military often do this type of operation in broad daylight?

[Skinner]

EarlG and I are sitting here in the office watching these pictures on CNN and we both commented on the fact that it looks like a beautiful day in Iraq which makes for really great pictures.

Neither of us knows anything about military tactics, or typical procedures for the US military. We were hoping there might be some veterans here or other military experts who could tell us if this is typical. We were kind of under the impression that major military operations usually took place at night. Do we have any experts here who can give us some idea of how common it is for these things to occur in broad daylight?

[doublethink]

1. Bingo! Propaganda Assault !!!

Just what I was thinking ... New Video ...... Dept. of Defense .... running on CNN all day. :wtf:

[doublethink]

12. Of course you won't see any 'dead' ......

Only 'Just In' New Video (dept of defense) of pretty helicopter fly-overs, 'happy' smiling troops leaving transports, etc...etc... bla bla bla ....:eyes:

[dogday]

2. Very astute observation on your part

It would seem that these operations would take place under the cover of night instead of the broad daylight where they could be shot down... I am not military, just an observation....

[WiseButAngrySara]

11. The first Iraq (Gulf) War took place at night because it really showed the

effects of our 'shock and awe' weapons better...All those "bombs bursting light" would have been lost to view if we had attacked during the day. (:sarcasm:)

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. Does the US Military often do this type of operation with full media

coverage, real time?

[Redstone]

7. When it's time to wag the dog, they do.

Redstone

[mzmolly]

19. Yep,

Waggin' that dog in hopes to stir up the blood thirsty pro-life brigade.

[malaise]

46. Bingo

What amazing coordination. This one was timed to explode at the same time as the speech. I guess Rove said it would help the polls.

[katmondoo]

9. Why does it matter what time of day

Iraq has no army, no air force, no navy. Only "insurgents". Who is going to oppose them in broad daylight?

[Redstone]

15. How about a guy with a mortar, picking the choppers off on the ground

where they were spread out nice and shiny in a row?

Do you know how far an 81mm mortar shell can travel? Answer: A long fucking way. A good crew would be able to get off four or five rounds before the ranging gear locked on them.

Redstone

[genie_weenie]

24. An 81mm Mortar

you are looking at 5km max range with HE (most likely round insurgents will have), an impromtu set up will limit this range 25% or more as for firing the "insurgents" can get off 4-6 rounds in under 2 minutes because after about 100 seconds they are going to be on the receiving side of a 155mm shell from Counterbattery fire. The really neat mortar set ups are in the back of pickups! Ingenious.

They key though are some of the improvised rocket sleds the insurgents have been developing in Iraq/Afghanistan that allow an almost light and go effect so as to allow the insurgents to be miles away when the rocket fires. Of course, they are very inaccurate but accuracy is seldom the point of the attacks.

[Redstone]

26. Like I said. And you don't even need a heavy mortar to wreck a chopper.

Redstone

[genie_weenie]

30. You can say that shit again!

I saw 2 big CH-53D and a CH-46E get shredded by a couple of 122mm rockets at Taqaddum back in early 2005.

[Redstone]

4. Are you kidding? We have more NVGs than the rest of the world combined.

(That's Night Vision Goggles.)

So, let's see, given that WE can see in the dark, and THEY can't, well...I get it! We'll go in in broad daylight! That'll suprise them!

So yes, you and EarlG are absolutely correct.

Redstone

[theHandpuppet]

49. Not only that...

But if you were in Samarra and saw 50 choppers headed in your direction, would you just get out the duct tape and plastic and wait for them to arrive? Of course not. Which is why targeting any specific houses for destruction is ludicrous -- there will be lots of "collateral" damage if this is truly a military action.

[MadMaddie]

5. Skinner that's exactly what it is....

It's all about the propaganda photos....

They will show the explosions of this strike...

But it will take weeks before we see the pictures of the children, women, elderly that are killed because of this....

[havocmom]

43. Propaganda to ease sagging enlistments?

Hey kids, things around the 'hood getting boring? Look at all the fun YOU could be having in the Army or Marines!

[librechik]

6. this is solely to demonstrate the effectiveness of "preemption"

IMO

[sheelz]

8. Propaganda

According to Puffy McMoon Face the Command-in Chief didn't order this. I'd say * prefers to see the blood bath in broad daylight.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. Why Not?

They're assaulting a defenseless enemy. The air defenses are practically non-existent, and the firepower differential is night vs. day. Ordinarily, i'd say you're right but against an enemy that can't defend itself, the cover of darkness is unnecessary.

And, i don't buy the propaganda aspect either. The pictures of things blowing up at night is much better for propaganda impact. Look how fascinated everyone was of the films during the first gulf war!
The Professor

[WiseButAngrySara]

17. Heh-heh..I cynically agree. See my post above ( #11). ....n/t

[Radio_Guy]

39. They are assaulting civilians

Civilians who have no formal military training. Operation Swarmer is like shooting fish in a barrel. It doesn't matter how many innocents are killed.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. That Was My Point

One only needs cover of darkness if the assault is being launched on people who can defend themselves. There is no defense against this assault. So, daytime will not be an impediment. I wasn't defending it, for goodness sake!
The Professor

[Old and In the Way]

40. I agree....I doubt this show of force does much of anything except

massage the boy-king's ego. "See how tough I am."

I think there's a real downside to this mechanized slaughter, both home and abroad. It energizes the anti-Bush folks here. It doesn't help our international image. It underscores that the whole "democracy" PR campaign in Iraq is a charade. Looks to me like Bush is killing the patient in order to save it.

Does this administration really think we can bomb our way to success?

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. I think it does indeed think that. What is this administration's

definition of "success"? :shrug:

[bpj1962]

13. Military Operation

Most operations are carried out at night. Most are done in the early morning when the sentries or guards are going to be the most tired. Also darkness masks your movements. Other then the propaganda value they may be conducting daytime operations due to the urban setting that the troops are operating in. Stealth and darkness is a soldiers friend.

[wakeme2008]

14. 4:00AM (local time) is the prime time to hit

Always has been. Guards are half asleep or asleep... People have their guard down.

[Richard Steele]

16. Nice catch. No, this sounds like a 'made for TV' military op.

Ironic, since it was the first Iraq war which
proved our 'night vision' technology to be
such an effective "force multiplier", and
made nighttime aerial asaults SOP.

[TomInTib]

18. Bombing only tears stuff up, this is just for us. (I've been there)

This will have zero negative effect on the "insurgents" or their ability to produce IEDs.

I used to do long-range recon (Viet Nam) and target extrication.

In some cases we would be preceded by massive carpet bombing by 52s to soften up the area and scatter the locals, according to the smart guys.

We hated that shit because the bad guys would then shoot at us from the cover of the craters.

All those bombs ever did was destroy villages, we rarely found any bodies except for the old folks that were unable to run fast enough.

This is all for teevee.

[pocket]

28. "air assault" is not bombing

it's infantry in choppers

[Karmakaze]

20. Actually it depends on the tactical situation...

As Wakeme2008 said 4:00AM is the optimum time to carry out an attack as that is the period of time when it is darkest and when the human body is at it lowest ebb, and thus less alert. However that does work both ways.

But the real deciding factor on timing of an attack is what the intention is AFTER the attack is complete. If you are making a hit and run style of attack you attack at last light. This gives you the cover of darkness to withdraw. If you are carrying out a take and hold operation, you attack at first light which gives you the cover of darkness to move into position, and the most daylight hours in which to assault and secure the objective. Thus these two times are the most used attack times, and is the reason why defensive positions go on alert at first and last light.

The US army may be the best force in the world for fighting at night, but that doesnt mean they fight better at night than during the day. Night attacks, especially involving large numbers of air assets are far more dangerous than daylight attacks simply because having lots of helicopters in one place that can't see each other is a major collision hazard.

When you have no fear of the enemy being able to effectively strike back, then why take the more dangerous option of a night attack?

Of course there is also the psychological effect of having a weaker enemy SEE what is coming their way. When confronted with a huge attacking force, the defenders may just give up if they can see what they are in for. Finalyl, and obviously what everyone is thinking, having the press broadcast a massive attack live to the whole world can have beneficial propaganda value, both against the enemy polpulation and the friendly population.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. Note: The parent post actually contains useful information. n/t

[glitch]

21. Cover of night when you are attacking a target that can defend itself

Broad daylight when you are attacking a defenseless target.

edit: as Karmakaze says above "When you have no fear of the enemy being able to effectively strike back, then why take the more dangerous option of a night attack?"

[Jacobin]

22. What did they name this one? Shock and AwShucks?

warmongering, simpering, evil bastards.

[Redstone]

23. I think they're calling it "Schwinger."

Redstone

[Hutzpa]

34. LOL!!! Cool!! whats next n/t

[bobthedrummer]

25. I agree that a lot of this is perception management.

I think that besides the more conventional weapons and tactics directed-energy based systems and other newer weapons and tactics are pretty obviously being employed.

http://www.au.af.mil/info-ops/perception.htm#

[genie_weenie]

27. Well, Ask Yourself, What is the Goal of the Operation?

Many have pointed out that this smacks of propaganda. Rightfully so. Propaganda is not just cool photos to show back home on CNN, but also attempts to cow and overawe locals.

As for the posters who seem to think it is bad military strategy to engage in operations in broad daylight, well not so much. It's not like the guys are going to be inserted into an area that is "under control" of hostiles. (please everyone do not flame me by saying all of Iraq is hostile, I know this)

What most people are considering are the sneak and grab 3am operations to capture a HVT (high value target) or person of interest. From what I've read 'Operation Swarmer' is not targeting an HVT but a "concentration" of insurgents.

And what this gets into is the conventional forces versus non-conventional forces arena. How, when and where do you target hostiles who do not wear uniforms and use normal houses as bases of operations with minimal concentrations of no more than platoon sized forces?

[democrank]

29. It`s deja vu all over again.

Remember the Department of Defense video of the Jessica Lynch rescue? Media cheerleaders ran that thing 24/7. Here we go again, only this time it`s "right along side Iraqis." God Bless America and God Bless our president, Junior Bush.

[Career Prole]

31. Must be a Shock & Awe booster shot.

Way too late for that, DimSon...way too late.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

32. I'm confused - Isn't the Mission Accomplished in the Iraq war?

That's what the banner on the aircraft carries said when * made the victory speech. Does this mean he gets another victory speech & another banner? Wonder what that banner will read.
Mission Accomplished Again or Mission Accomplished II

[Hutzpa]

35. No.....no.....this is Mission Miscomplished n/t

:evilgrin:

[question everything]

33. Why not, if you rule the arena?

I am not a military expert, but clearly you can operate better in daylight.

You will seek the cover of night if you know you will be faced with a strong enemy. But if you control the land, the sky, the weapons - why not in daylight?

If you use heavy vehicles and your enemy is pedestrian hiding a bomb - you will be able to notice him better in daylight, too.

[Jara sang]

36. The video I saw had troops being dropped in the middle of nowhere.

That seemed odd.

[Neil Lisst]

37. It's OPERATION HEY LOOK OVER THERE!!

With color daylight video to accompany all that useful former general propaganda slathering over the TV news.

Let's go back to real journalists giving us stories from the front lines with accompanying video.

[doublethink]

38. CNN ... Wolfie and Co.

questioning why independent media not allowed to go on this 'mission' as they were somewhat in the past. I'm surprised Wolfie and Co. brought this up for discussion, hope they keep on it. Peace. :)

[ContraBass Black]

41. *Jawdrop*

I'm an idiot.

It never even occured to me.

[johnnie]

42. I was talking to a friend of mine

Her son just returned from Iraq and is on base in Colorado. He knew nothing about this at 2:00 in the afternoon his time. No one else on base knew of it.

She also received an email from a Marine in the 101st stationed in the same area of the attacks today. He sent the email at about 9:30 this morning.

Seems a little strange.

[annabanana]

44. he sent it at 9:30am Thursday from Iraq?

or she got it at 9:30am yesterday? It does seem odd.

[johnnie]

48. She told me she got it around that time (her time)

I just saw here on the local news that it was oversold and not as big as a deal as it was reported to be.

I think it's fair to say that this operation was hyped up to boost something or another.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

47. They even had the chutzpah to have the DOD film it, and release

the film to news networks.

The Dog is Wagging..............

[Sgent]

50. I don't know a heck of a lot about military ops (but a little)

That being said, air operations -- especially formation flying, precision bombing, etc. are MUCH safer during the day. The chance of accidents and FF is reduced.

Usually we use the night because even though its more dangerous, its much harder for the opposing force to target us. However, when there is no opposing force, I very well could see a desire by the Field Officers to execute during the day.

[symbolman]

51. This Operation "Fish in a Barrel" or "Leave no parts of a Child Behind"

are exactly why I posted, "As of now I no Longer support the Troops" (believe me, it's with a heavy heart that I make such a statement) which was locked immediately. Perception Management indeed, we SUPPORT the troops, the "elephant in the livingroom" at ALL COSTS, and as such we play into the hands of the right wing.

The troops know the same thing I know, as a Vietnam Era Veteran, that you CAN AND MUST REFUSE an Illegal order, it's military regulations.

They took the same Oath I did, to Serve and Protect the Constitution of the United States from enemies both WITHIN and WITHOUT.

In my post I called for the immediate arrest and detention of Bush, Cheney and other accomplices by the Joint Chief's of Staff for War Crimes.

I wrote to EarlG about why I think this subject, tho potentially volitile is Important to discuss, if we are being forced to turn our heads to what our troops are doing then Rove & Co have won half the battle. And it's all about PR.

When I returned from overseas I was spat on for wearing my USAF uniform, all I could think was, "Hey, all I want to do is grow out my hair and smoke weed, just like you antiwar folks, I'm not a 'baby killer'.."

But I guarantee you, it was not just the antiwar people refusing to support the War that stopped Vietnam, it was also the troops recognition that they were involved in something that an Average American found repulsive, made them think twice about killing some, or freed them up to refuse orders, blow the whistle as Lt Calley did at Mi lai (a coverup by Powell there btw), and BLEW the PR being spewn.

Thanks to the shed blood of patriots from past wars I'm allowed the freedom to refuse to support the troop any longer, until they lay down their arms or arrest those involved in War Crimes.

This in no way disrespects those from previous and morally neccessary battles, just those who continue this farce when there is Military Regulations that say they don't HAVE TO.

If someone says it, and it needs to be said by those who believe it, then the Right Wing has to explain WHY they sent those troops to commit war crimes.

We can beat them at their own game, and to them it's just a game, to me it's my brothers and sisters in arms having the ultimate responsibility, that of saying, "The buck stops HERE."

They can't jail them all if they refuse, and if they know that there are americans that are behind them if they REFUSE to fight this, then they may act, and lives could very well be saved.

Evil wins when good men stand by and do nothing, and while the Truth is sometimes subjective, it's still the truth. Our troops are murdering these people who have NO air force, in a soverign nation who never attacked us, and they know it.

I'm sorry if this sounds over the top to some people, but when I saw those pictures of little dead girls all in a row, and they were about the age or size of my precious little 15 month old son, I could not stand idly by and say that it's OKAY if a troop does it, he's only following orders.

So were the guards in Auschwitz, who had no choice, if THEY refused they would have been burned in the ovens like the rest of the jews, but LEGALLY our troops CAN REFUSE.

[VolcanoJen]

57. Excellent post, friend.

:hug:

[symbolman]

61. Volcano Jen

it means a lot to hear you say that, you're much appreciated for all you do and say :)

[bridgit]

53. with great expenditure already having been paid in high tech night...

vision, and other over the horizon technologies, the answer to that should have been been, "no, they don't"; they touted surprise going into this operation, while a child with a cell phone could have 'called it in' from miles away.

while no military planner, i come from a military family; hubby has worked in naval weapons, and while extremely sad to view in these ways, feels the tactic specious & likely to end up in republican ads designed to stave off a viable dem run on their feeble seats come 06.

especially specious, when a predator drone could have picked them apart from high altitude.

[Lithos]

54. Probably because of the Iraqi contingent

Remember they are making a big deal of the Iraqi contribution to this. Night fighting is really only for experienced, trained troops. Because we're bringing in some extremely green Iraqi troops, exposing them to night combat would have been a major disaster for us and them.

I'm pretty sure given the drum beat and common line that there are more Iraqi's than US personnel (I'm imagining they are pulling semantics here and that there are more Iraqi riflemen on the ground than US riflemen so as to exclude the US air, artillery, medical and logistic components) that this is purely for show and for the press. However it would look very, very bad to have it blow up in our faces for friendly fire issues.


Things to point out

- Fallujah and other recent op's did not include this level of grand-stand reporting.
- This is a quick search operation and not intended to last very long. (Green troops would melt under any sustained combat operations)
- There are NO shots of active combat. This might have well been a training exercise. All you're seeing are troops walking around and aircraft flying around.
- Even so, the operation is EXTREMELY close to Baghdad to allow for very quick US response.

The fact they need so much US military support to conduct even this limited of operation indicates that our multi-year training program is a failure and continues to be so.

[understandinglife]

56. this sorta answers your question ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=197536&mesg_id=197536


Be The Bu$h Opp0sition - 24/7

[VOX]

58. It's a public muscle-flexing, designed to show "who's in control."

No matter how out of control the situation really is. :grr:

Our tax dollars at work, creating the illusion of "spreading freedom."

[Oneliest]

59. Daylight is more dangerous for the ground troops but

Safer for civilans who are intermixxed with the targets. Day light movements in MOUT environment could make liberal use of APCs and smoke to shield dismounts and to obscure the approach. Obviously though APCs would still be vulnerable to the larger IEDs.

Another possible reason I can think of to stage a raid during the day is if you know thats when targets will be at a given location.

Even amongst field grade officers I am sure you could ask a dozen of them and get a dozen different opinions.

[THUNDER HANDS]

60. Rep. Steve Israel (D- NY) called it Operation Whack-A-Mole