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So I just finished watching "Inherit the Wind"

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:00 PM
Original message
So I just finished watching "Inherit the Wind"
It's a brilliant study of the right-wing anti-modern/fundamentalist mindset. Great acting too.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053946/
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. "The Rock of Ages is more important than the age of rocks."
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That was hilarious
The fossil record is quite perplexing to biblical literalists. This movie really captures the conflict quite well.
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msatty99 Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. In my Southern Baptist Church
I was told that the moon emitted its own light.

That Samson was in heaven (despite his multiple and serial murders and adultery) but that
the little jewish boy that died last week wasn't.

That Everybody who didn't actually get dunked in a baptismal pool was going to hell.

Etc.,

So...I don't go to church for about 27 years.

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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. One of a million great scenes...
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 05:18 PM by mark11727

Henry Drummond: Can't you understand? That if you take a law like evolution and you make it a crime to teach it in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools? And tomorrow you may make it a crime to read about it. And soon you may ban books and newspapers. And then you may turn Catholic against Protestant, and Protestant against Protestant, and try to foist your own religion upon the mind of man. If you can do one, you can do the other. Because fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding. And soon, your Honor, with banners flying and with drums beating we'll be marching backward, BACKWARD, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind!


How prescient.

God, how I love that movie.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. once upon a time, fundy political blowhards were perpetual losers
williams jenning bryan lost all 3 bids for the presidency and ultimately was humiliated by darrow during the scopes trial.

but today's fundy political blowhard has combined pure evil, finally achieving political success.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The thing about it is back then
William Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow were allies in their support of labor. They split in their views on majoritarianism and individual liberty. Bryan was an anti-war, pro-labor fundamentalist. Fundamentalists used to have the capacity to read war as contrary to Jesus.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes, I long for the days when crazyass fundamentalists were...
rightly marginalized in our society. When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, rapture-believing and creationist loons were considered to be...well...loons. And this was in the freakin' deep South!
Now these crazies make up a large portion of the mainstream. Unbelievable.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Here's one thing
Bryan was a champion of the poor, and he fought tooth and nail against many injustices that were screwing over the farmers of the US. The railroads and other companies were just robbing the farmers blind and laughing all the way to the bank, and he strongly stood against that. When it comes to pure politics (economics, to be exact), he's very admirable.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. correct. that's what i meant when i said modern fundies mix in EVIL
and sadly, they have achieved political success that bryan never could.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sounds like a *gas*
:7
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Anyone remember the 80's television version?
That was my favorite version. It had Kirk Douglas and ... another big name, I can't recall. As far as I know, it's never come out on video or DVD, and more's the pity.
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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Several TV versions were made...
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 05:25 PM by mark11727
1965 - with Melvyn Douglas (Drummond) and Ed Begly (Brady)

1988 - with Jason Robards (Drummond) and Kirk Douglas (Brady)

1999 - with Jack Lemmon (Drummond) and George C. Scott (Brady)



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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. was it the version with Dick (Bewitched) York as the teacher
and starring Spencer Tracy and Fredric March.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Yes it was and the guy from Mash was the Judge.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. Henry Drummond Questions Mathew Brady on the Scientific Authority...
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. That was key
in the real trial of Scope's similar testimony happened and Darrow called Bryan to the stand. Expert testimony was blocked on behalf of evolutionary theorists/scientists and so Darrow changed tactics and went after Genesis.

The symbolism at the end when Drummond stacked the bible on top of the origin of the species is quite an image.
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Andy B. Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Darrow Questions Bryan

Izzybeans wrote:

"Expert testimony was blocked on behalf of evolutionary theorists/scientists and so Darrow changed tactics and went after Genesis."

Sorry - you're confusing "Inherit the Wind" with the real life trial.

In real life Darrow's only purpose in volunteering to serve on the defense team was so that he could get a crack at Bryan - though he may not have figured out in advance how he would achieve that.

1. Darrow didn't volunteer when he first heard about the trial - from Mencken - only when he heard Bryan had volunteered to aid the prosecution

2. He stated publicly that his purpose in going to Dayton was to defeat Bryan.

3. The questions Darrow put to Bryan on day 7 were based on the 55 questions Darrow had put to Bryan in the Chicago Times some two years earlier.

4. The month after the trial Darrow wrote to Mencken saying that his purpose in going to Dayton was to publicly defeat Bryan and that he thought he had been successful.

5. In his autobiography, "The Story of My Life", published 7 years after the Scopes Trial (and seven years after Bryan's death), Darrow devotes a large portion of the three chapters dealing with the Scopes Trial to insulting Bryan.

6. Darrow wasn't recruited by the ACLU - who had arranged for the expert witnesses - and wasactually there against their wishes. His desire to attack religious beliefs was also against the wishes of the ACLU who, rightly, considered that this would alienate many of the people whose support they were seeking.

But it looks good in the play and the film!
But then, that's a work of fiction, after all.

BTW, not to advertise, but I realise it is important to justify these claims, you can find full details of these various points on my website:

http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenesse.html

Details of: Darrow's/Bryan's knowledge of evolution in Part 2; ACLU in Part 4; Darrow's questioning of Bryan in Part 9; more on Darrow in Part 14; etc.

Best wishes

Andy Bradbury
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Hi Andy B.!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. Absolutely brilliant film
STILL sadly relevant today.

I highly recommend it. Everyone in this film is great...Spencer Tracy, Fredrich March, Gene Kelly and Dick York (yes, the same Dick York from )"Bewitched"

One of my favorite films.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I was very impressed.
I can see stanley fish getting grilled in Dover PA right now, with some updating of rhetoric
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. What a classic and
one of my all time favorites. Unfortunately, I fear history is doomed to repeat itself :cry:

Jenn
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Yep, you should check out
Ed Larson's book "Summer for the God's" it's a Pulitzer winning historical book on the subject. Does well explaining the background the rise of creationism and the conflict between secular and christian science and the political struggles in public schools over the teaching of evolution.

It's been a long struggle. Religion's last stand some epistemologists (radical ones) might argue.

Dorothy Nelkin wrote a book on the reemergence of creationism in the 70s. The book on "intelligent design" and Dover, PA is waiting in the wings I'm sure.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. And Republican Slander
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 07:04 PM by happyslug
William Jennings Bryan was attacked by the GOP from his nomination in 1898 till AFTER his death by further slander published in the 1930s.

As to the Play, Inherit the Wind, it is an accumulation of all the slander against him WITH additional attacks intended to attack McCarthyism more than Fundamentalism. Thus the Play does a good job of Attacking McCarthyism, it ends up repeating and furthering Slandering Bryan. Lets look at just SOME of the Slander made against Bryan in the play:

1. In the play Scopes is Arrested and jailed for teaching evolution, in real life Scopes was the popular local high School Football Coach, he had covered for the biology teacher when the biology was sick and thus agreed to say he taught evolution, but only after several of the Town's "elders" approached him so the town could host the trial as a revenue maker for the town.

2. In the play the town is shown gladly greeting the Bryan Charter but hostile to the Darrow Character, in real life both had been hosted at subsequent dinners held by the local Chamber of Commence, both sides agreed that the town made every effort to keep the town neutral for the trial.

3. In the play Bryan is shown being reluctant to testify, in real life his only objection was he wanted the right to cross-examine the Defense team afterward, they agreed to that he he gladly took the stand.

4. During the Cross-examination of the Bryan Charter in the play, the Bryan Character rejects Darwin's books, but in the actual Trail Bryan had INTRODUCED both of Darwin's book into the trial (In Fact Darrow admitted later that he only had read 50 pages of Darwin's book and did not understand it, while Bryan had read Darwin's books over 20 years before and had discussed it in print and otherwise over the subsequent 20 years both with Anti-Evolutionist AND evolutionists).

5. In the play Bryan commented that "Einstein tells us everything is relative" when it comes to his comment on Gideon's pray to God to Stop the Sun from Raising is generally ignored (and most of the "Transcripts" on the net also drops that section, through it is in the official court record). Furthermore Bryan repeats to Darrow that while Gideon had asked for the Sun to stop, it could be that the earth was stops BUT THE AUTHOR'S OF GIDEON'S BATTLE UNDERSTOOD IT AS THE SUN STOPPING not as everything can be relative.

6. In the play Darrow make a big deal about the sun and stars are not made by God till the Third day thus the bible was false, in the real trial Bryan points out the next section of the Bible clearly sues the term "Day" to mean a time period, not necessary a 24 hours day.

7. In the play, they do use parts of the Testimony of Bryan in the Play, but leaves out huge sections, OFTEN SECTION THAT THEN MAKES THE STATEMENT OF BRYAN ALMOST OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE DID SAY (The above comment on Gideon and the Sun is one of the worse example of this).

8. At the end of the Trial the Play shows Bryan going into a Tirade about the $100 fine. In the Actual Trail no such Tirade occurs for several reasons, first, no jail time was authorized under the section so only a fine could be imposed, Second, before Scopes even took on the job of being a Defendant it had been agreed that the town would pay the Fine (In fact the Baltimore Sun ended up paying more for public than any other reason) and third, when Bryan first rolled into town at the Dinner welcoming Bryan into the Town Bryan had Approached Scopes and told him he would pay the fine if Scoop could not, at which point Scope told him the town had already agreed to to pay the fine and fourth, the year before when the Law against Teaching Evolution had been proposed in the Tennessee Legislature Bryan had lobbied the Legislature NOT to add a fine for when it comes to teachers you were dealing with professionals and as such a law saying Teacher were not to teach Human Evolution would be sufficient in itself.

I can go on, For example H.L. Mencken's conversion from supporting the decision to fine Scopes for failing to follow the law to supporting him when Mencken discovered Bryan supporting the decision to fine Scopes (Mencken like most Republicans hated Bryan for Bryan ability to Campaign equally with the GOP while being outspent 20-1). To the claim Bryan never "Recovered" from Darrow's Cross-Examination (He Recovered enough to arrange for the publication of his never delivered summation, gave two speeches, involved in an Auto Accident, He was NOT the driver, and examined by his Doctor who said he was in top notch shape for a person driving himself like he was doing and had diabetes).

For More see the following:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/scopes.htm
http://www.antievolution.org/topics/law/scopes/scopes.html
http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tennesse.html

Of the above three sites, I like the Last one the best but you can see a little bit of Fundamentalist prejudice in its makeup (And you can see the opposite tendency in the first two sites). This bring me to comment on sites regarding this topic, be careful when dealing with them. Regarding this subject, you will see two extremes, first the Fundamentalist who tries to show that "Bryan" and Fundamentalism "Won" and the Second Group who say Darrow and the "Evolutionists" won. The best comment is below, which is Bryan's Comment on the Trial:

“I don’t know that there is any special reason why I should add to what has been said, and yet the subject has been presented from so many viewpoints that I hope the Court will pardon me if I mention a viewpoint that has not been referred to. “Dayton is the centre and seat of this trial largely by circumstance. We are told that more words have been sent across the ocean by cable to Europe and Australia about this trial than has ever been sent by cable in regard to anything else doing in the United States. That isn’t because the trial is held in Dayton. It isn’t because a school teacher has been subjected to the danger of a fine of from $100 to $500, but I think it illustrates how people can be drawn into prominence by attaching themselves to a great cause.

“Causes stir the world, and this cause has stirred the world. It is because it goes deep. It is because it extends wide and because it reaches into the future beyond the power of man to see. Here has been fought out a little case of little consequence as a case, but the world is interested because it raises an issue, and that issue will some day be settled right, whether it is settled on our side or the other side. It is going to be settled right. There can be no settlement of a great cause without discussion, and people will not discuss a cause until their attention is drawn to it, and the value of this trial is not in any incident of the trial, it is not because of anybody who is attached to it, either in any official way or as counsel on either side.

“Human beings are mighty small, your Honor. We are apt to minify the personal element and we sometimes become inflated with our importance, but the world little cares for man as an individual. He is born, he works, he dies, but causes go on forever, and we who have participated in this case may congratulate ourselves that we have attached ourselves to a mighty issue.

“Now, if I were to attempt to define that issue I might find objection from the other side. Their definition of the issue might not be as mine is, and therefore, I will not take advantage of the privilege the Court gives me this morning to make a statement that might be controversial, and nothing that I would say would determine it.

“I have no power to define this issue finally and authoritatively. None of the counsel on our side has this power, and none of the counsel on the other side has this power. Even this honorable Court has no such power. The people will determine this issue. They will take sides upon this issue, they will state the questions involved in this issue, they will examine the information — not so much that which has been brought out here, but this case will stimulate investigation and investigation will bring out information, and the facts will be known, and upon the facts as ascertained the decision will be rendered, and I think my friends and your Honor, that if we are actuated by the spirit that should actuate every one of us, no matter what our views may be, we ought not only desire but pray that that which is right will prevail, whether it be our way or somebody else’s.”
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm especially glad that you pointed out that H. L. Mencken was...
a republican.
It drives me crazy when he is always held up as the supreme American iconoclast. The idea is ridiculous. A reading of his work reveals the mind of a conservative reactionary. Mencken could certainly write with verve, but the man seemed to fear any kind of populist change. He was a verbose lickspittle for the powers-that-be.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. He also had a penchant for using words like "darkie"
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 09:41 PM by izzybeans
as to Bryan. He resembled the contradictions of the time. Union leaders valorize him, while political minded scientists see him as a majoritarian patsy. The above posting is true yet his charismatic authority is well documented to utilize fundamentalist preachings to justify his activism. The play is a dramatization and made Darrow into the hero he wasn't. Either way the spirit captures exactly the philosophical conflicts present. Science vs. religion, majoritarianism vs. individual liberty and the protection of minorities. If Bryan faulted, he faulted on the side of a tyrannnical majority, a view of democracy in vogue with elite reformers of the day. Darrow was the dissenter who advocated the Bill of Rights alongside a nascent ACLU.

to which I would refer to Edward Larson's "Summer of the God's", which references the actual speeches of Bryan, as well as the testimony.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Go to my last cite in list and look under the Section involving Darrow
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 05:31 PM by happyslug
And the author does a nice job on Darrow and what he truly believed in. Mencken had very similar belief system, heavy influenced by Nietzsche (Who had a heavy influence on Hitler and the rest of what we would now call Fascists AND the Corporate Elite of the Western World).

For "Chapter 14" on Darrow:
http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tennes14.html

For more on Mencken:
This site says he was a Democrat, but ignores Menchen's hatred of Bryan, but mention Mencken Obituary of Bryan (You figure that out):
http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/spring2003/boychuk.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dmccarthy/dmccarthy46.html
http://todayinliterature.com/biography/h.l.mencken.asp
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/mencken.htm
http://www.io.com/~gibbonsb/mencken.html

The more I study the Man, the more I understand him to be a very MEAN minded person. The scary part you do NOT see any real anti-Mencken cites out there, you see some that acknowledge his hatred of Jews, Immigration Fundamentalist etc, but then try to show these were NOT the product of Mencken's meanness, but that Mencken's greatness was in his STYLE of Writing. Yes, Style over substance, a thing Mencken attacks Bryan for in Mencken's obituary of Bryan is held by Mencken's biographers to be Mencken's greatest achievement. Hitler had great Style to, but no one says he was a great man do to his "Style" while ignoring what the "Style" was used for.

Back on track, this is on Mencken not Bryan. Mencken's meanness is confirmed in his Legendary Obituary on Bryan, where the hatred of Bryan just oozed from the words. Decent criticism on the man can be expected (such as when Reagan died) but we Democrats did nothing to Nixon or Reagan like what Mencken did to Bryan, it is the Classic example of Mencken tendency to prue meanness.

The actual Obituary:
http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.unitarian-univ/messages/14035.html
http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.unitarian-univ/messages/14035.html

The more I read about Bryan the more I like him, like Jefferson he was a politician who was trying to get elected and to get his party elected. This lead him to make several Compromises over time (For example he had to accept the growing segregation of the south during his life-time) but to his actual belief he tried to be Progressive. No wonder, as one Historian liked to point out, that since the start of this Republic we have had three people who heavy influence The PHILOSOPHY of BOTH political parties and thus the politics of this Country. The First was Jefferson whose influence spans his whole life, The Second is Lincoln but for only the Five years he was President, the Third was Bryan who like Jefferson was influential for over 40 years. Like Jefferson and Lincoln, since Bryan's death BOTH parties have moved to his positions on most things. There are exceptions (Prohibition for example, but then Jefferson's ownership of Slaves is also no longer followed) but almost everything else both parties now embrace (Income taxation, Women right to Vote, Giving both sides the chance to make their point, protecting the poor from the Rich, Government Regulation of Business, and even keeping Religion out of Schools).

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Andy B. Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. Fundamentalist bias
Hi Happyslug

Thanks for posting a link to my Scopes Trial website, but I must confess you have me a little worried.
You wrote:

"Of the above three sites, I like the Last one the best but you can see a little bit of Fundamentalist prejudice in its makeup..."

I've have, in fact, done my best to keep the site as "neutral" as I possibly can, at least as far as religious views are concerned. By which I mean that I have tried to be as fair as possible in presenting all relevant views.

I would therefore be most grateful if you would point out what element(s) on the site you think constitute pro-fundamentalist prejudice so that I can deal with it/them appropriately.

Many thanks

Andy Bradbury
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Actually None
I am a great admirer of William Jennings Bryan and have found MOST sites attacking him on some ground (Even the Fundamentalist attack him for conceding that days as used in Genesis mean periods not 24 hour days).

What I meant is that any site has a slant, even if you try not to have one (Which your site does try to do). The slant in your site is more pro-Bryan than pro-Darrow simply because that how the actual trial went, but it is still a "slant".

Also I am a student of propaganda and one of the things you learn about propaganda is NEVER offend the person you are trying to convince to your side. In my posts on Bryan I have to over come a huge prejudice against him both from the over 40 years of attacks against him in the GOP controlled process of his day AND the portray of his Character in "Inherit the Wind". Thus when it comes to Bryan I have to be careful, people have they mind made up about him and to change their mind I have to show them what they believe to be true is wrong, but in a way NOT to attack the person I am talking with directly. Thus to be careful I point out my impression of certain sites, such as yours. My impression overall is it is pro-Bryan, so I say so. Why is your site pro-Bryan? Because that is HOW the actual trial went but that is NOT most people's perception of that trial.

Thus why I tell people your site is more told Bryan than Darrow is that is true FOR THE STORY AS A WHOLE PUT BRYAN IN A BETTER LIGHT THAN DARROW but do to spin of the last 80 years that is NOT people's perception. When People find a site that does NOT fit their preconceived idea they tend to reject it, thus when it comes to your site I tell people it is pro-Bryan but has good facts. People will then go to the site see the pro-Bryan Slant but not be turned off by it. After a while people will get into the actual trial and see how Darrow actual did more damage to the cause being advocated by the ACLU than did the Prosecution by the State of Tennessee.

Thus when I am saying your site is pro-Bryan (Or pro-fundamentalist) it is more to inform people they are going to a site where their preconceived ideas on the Trial will be destroyed then any actual bias in your site. I hope this explains my comment on your site and I hope you keep it up, it is the best site on the trial I have found on the web and it involves an issue that continues to this day.

That is issue is based on the fact People are Social Animals, as Social Animals we accept certain norms in our society (These norms vary from society to Scott and over time but the concept of norms do not). One of these norms is often called Religion (and by Religion I include atheism and any other set of strongly held beliefs). The problem in the Scopes Trial is when you have a clash between sets of norms, who decides what norms should be taught? Bryan said the decision should be up to the people themselves through their elected Representatives. The ACLU said Evolution is like Math an exact science and as such what should be taught is the conscience of the experts in that field NOT what the people themselves believe should be taught.

The above is an interesting dilemma, one that has NOT been Addressed since Bryan's death. If you believe in Majority rule, then the group that should make the decision is the people through their elected Representatives (or Local School Board where most such debate occurs). On the other hand people have long deferred to experts in various fields, we do not go to the State Legislature for a cure on Cancer, we go to a Doctor, we do not go to Congress to actually build a rocket to the moon, we go to NASA and its Rocket Scientists, we do not go to the local City to build a Sewerage system, but to an Engineer. These are example of deferring to experts, but carefully look at the last two, while experts design the system, it is the elected Representatives that provides the money and the final decision to go forward on the project. Education is in the same boat, taxes are paid by people to be spent by their representatives in a manner for the best interest of the people. On the other hand Teachers are experts hired to teach the next generations of people.

Lets look at the Sewerage example to clarified the conflict. Often a City adopts a Sewerage system and has it installed by an engineer, but as soon as the plans by the Engineers are finished objections are raised and resolved do to conflicts. For example the Engineer First design may have the Sewer go right by the Mayor's house, when the Mayor objects the Engineer will often change where the line goes to appease the Mayor. That may mean it goes through a local public park which will cause the people themselves to object, forcing another change. This will go on and on till some sort of final decision is made by the CITY as to where the Sewer line will go based on the what the people want and what the experts can do. This back and forth action between the representative of the People and the Experts occur all the time even when it comes to education.

This back and forth between the people and the experts occur all the time in our society, the Scopes Trial gave both sides the opportunity to show how that interaction should occur. Instead Darrow took it as an attack on Fundamentalism and the whole opportunity was lost. In many ways Darrow was like a Republican, he knew he was right because he believed so and any debate was useless. Darrow weakness at debate can be seen a few years later when he had the opportunity to debate the same subject with C.K. Chesterton, who by vote of the viewers of the Debate won the debate 2-1 (Snippets of this debate survive and you can find it on the net, but the whole debate is lost in History). The reason Chesterton won the debate and Bryan did not was Bryan never had his chance to cross-examine Darrow, so in Scopes you only had half a debate, and under rules set by Darrow not Bryan, the other half would have been under rules set by Bryan and what a lost to history that that testimony did not occur.

The the dilemma between the will of the people and decisions by experts is in full swing when it comes to Teaching. What is to be taught is to be decided by Local School Board (With input from the state and Federal Government but the final say in still in the hands of the Local School Board). That Board is going to do what the people want. On the other hand the actual teaching is done by hired Experts who must teach in a way authorized by the School Board. Thus what is taught has always been a debate between the People (as represented by the Local School Board) and the Experts (i.e. the Teachers).

As a Good Democrat I am always amazed at the Great Debates in US History and how most times the GOP sits them out while the Democrats are on both sides. Dayton was a GOP Stronghold for decades before the Trial, yet the attorneys on both sides were Democrats. Except for Slavery the GOP has rarely debated anything, it is almost always the Democrats who conduct the debate. Look at Civil Rights for Example, Both King and Wallace were Democrats, even on Abortion it is the Democrats who debate the subject the GOP accept it as part of their party "goals".

Hopefully the above explains why I call your site "Pro-Bryan". I know you made an effort to keep it balanced and I want to encourage you to continued to do so but at the same Time we are all rational creatures with ideas on what is right and wrong and in the case on the Scope's Trial Bryan's position was more than defensible. As Bryan said at the end of the trial, this was NOT to be the end of this question but the beginning. Unfortunately it quickly became the end as shown in your site.
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Andy B. Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-19-06 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Actually none
Hi Happyslug

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think you've covered just about everything there, and I'm relieved to say I'm basically in agreement with all your main points.

I think it is especially relevant that Darrow's questioning of Bryan was NOT a "debate", and I feel very strongly (no way we can ever prove it) that a key factor in how history remembers the trial has been the fact that Bryan wasn't around more than a few days after the trial.

If he had lived then I imagine it would not have been too long before he and Darrow had another face to face confrontation over the matter (Darrow certainly wasn't afraid of Bryan - he had no way of knowing, in advance, that Bryan wouldn't have a chance to come back at him). And in a genuine debate, I suspect that Bryan would have wiped the floor with Darrow. That is to say, I don't think Bryan did know much about science - but it is my impression that Darrow knew even less.

Added to that, it seems to me that Darrow's great strength lay in his ability to "speechify" - but not to "debate" (which is maybe why he never tried to go very far in politics).
He also worked very hard indeed to build up a mythical version of himself (his autobiography, for example, is remarkably biased, even for an autobiography), and I suspect that it is more often the myths rather than the facts which are remembered about him.

Best wishes

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. One of my all-time favorite films
Spencer Tracy and Fredric March were in top form. :)

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I normally do not enjoy acting from this time period
this is one of the few exceptions.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
29. "The Monkeys Trial" was the title in Romania where I saw it as a kid
Edited on Sat Mar-18-06 08:38 AM by robbedvoter
It was very memorable for me too - although I couldn't believe the weirdness of people believing that stuff. In fact, as I watched the South Park episode on scientology where they have a dramatization of the sci-fi idiocy that is their doctrine with "SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS" underneath, I experienced the very same :wtf: sensation.
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