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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:38 PM
Original message
*** NOTE TO ALL "PRO-LIFERS" BLOGGING ***
I just became absolutely livid reading through some comments on a blog ( http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19906528&postID=114072799892364390) and this was my comment back:

If your goal really is to 'save lives'; if your primary concern really and truly is the children, then why not work harder towards prevention, assistance and alternatives yourself? Why strike down bills offering assistance to pregnant women in need? Why strike down assistance to children? Why fight national healthcare?

I know why and you know why. Because your concern is not the children and your goal is not saving lives! Your goal is judgement. Your concern is with the ability to look down your nose in disdain at others. To shake your head in shame and feel better about yourselves. And, let's be honest, even you and your own have been faced with this horrible choice... and you and yours have gone against the very words you preach - because your abortion is the only moral one.

Wake up! You call a women selfish, and you call it a method of birth control and you say it's a procedure of convenience. Two-thirds of women who abort say they cannot afford a child. Not just "oh, I won't be able to go to Aspen twice a year" can't afford... but no medical insurance, working 60 hours a week at $7.00 an hour can't afford!

From http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3198:
During the 1990s, as unemployment steadily decreased and average real income rose, the annual number of abortions in the U.S. actually decreased by 300,000 -- from 1,610,000 to 1,310,000 per year. But in 2002, the first full year of the Bush presidency, abortions increased in the 16 states for which I could find data by a total of 5,855. If the data from the rest of the nation fit that pattern, abortions increased nationwide in 2002 by about 24,000 a year, reversing the dramatic decreases of the 1990s.

Surely that increase reflects economic and social conditions. During the past three years, unemployment rates increased half again, average real incomes decreased, and for seven years the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation.

Women who become pregnant worry about having health care for themselves and their children. There are 5.2 million more people today who have no health insurance than there were in 2000 -- and women of childbearing age are over represented in that group.

Poor and low-income women account for the majority of abortions. Their economic status is a major contributor to the abortion rate. Black and Latina women tend to be poorer and are more often unemployed, and their abortion rates are two to three times higher than those for white women. The 30-year trend shows abortion rates moving roughly in tandem with women’s unemployment rates.


IF YOU GIVE A SHIT ABOUT CHILDREN AND HUMANITY AND PEOPLE, FOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT MATTER!! Fight for an administration who helps BUILD the ecomony! Fight for health coverage and child-care assistance and increases to the minimum wage so people can take COMFORT in bringing a child into this world, not become paraylzed with fear at the thought!!

Seriously. Wake the fuck up, assholes!

Thanks for letting me vent.
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Awesome rant!
The whole "prolife" thing makes me sick. They prove again and again by their actions that they don't care about life. They don't care about children or women. It's about control for them.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
And welcome!

:hi:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great rant!
I applaud you!

Yes, IMHO, those fundie anti-choice people are murders by virtue of their support of GWB, Bastard in Chief. There is no question as to when life began for our troops.

All that energy wasted trying to force their views upon the rest of the country would be far better used to help young women in the ways you describe.

Seriously good rant!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. The figures you sight have been disavowed
evidently abortions continued to go down during the Bush years, though not as much as during the Clinton years. The debunking was on Scopes.
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, I didn't sight them directly, oddly from "religion-online"
... the italics are a rant by a self-proclaimed pro-lifer.

But, let's be honest, there is a direct correlation between economic conditions, availability of health care and abortions.
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Can you link me to the debunking? I think you meant Snopes
and they don't mention it.

The only "debunking" I found was linking to RW sights.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. My bad it was factcheck.org
http://www.factcheck.org/article330m.html

They claim the original author of the piece has stated that the study they mention was better than his.
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. They say it was cherry-picking data. Not false data.
There's still plenty of evidence to support that economic conditions, unemployment rates and health care all relate to abortion rates.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. They directly stated it was inaccurate
The person only used the data he could get and then extrapolated. It turns out the data he could get wasn't representative. He wasn't lying but he was decidedly wrong. I wish it had been accurate as it is a great argument. Sadly it wasn't true.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Maybe selling condoms in bathrooms helps along with easy ways
to buy contraception at pharmacies.

If you take away contraception abortions numbers will increase.


Plus there are many organizations that give away condoms now. Planned Parenthood does as do AIDS clinics. I am probably missing a few others that do.

I remember going to a store called "Condonmania" in NY years ago. It had all types of condoms and gag gifts too. I think the general acceptance of birth control has helped lower abortion rates. If bright colored condoms sell then that is kind of proof that people are not so embarrassed about them as they once were.
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flashdebadge Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm a Dem who holds the pro-life position.
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 09:17 PM by flashdebadge
I don't think that people who are making $7/hr. should be having children. A pack of condoms is cheaper than an abortion. Getting pregnant is never an accident. What happened to waiting until you have the resources or support of your family to adequately care for the child. It is true that many people don't have insurance but if you're pregnant and go to the hospital to deliver the baby you cannot be turned away. I'm not against assistance for the mother or the child. I believe a moral and just society should assist when there is a need. But it's important to structure that assistance in such a way that it doesn't foster the mentality that if you want a child but cant pay for it, the government will. You ask "if your primary concern really and truly is the children, then why not work harder towards prevention, assistance and alternatives yourself?" Well many of us do, but in the end, it's not our responsibility. Is it?

Appreciate your passion! :thumbsup:
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You don't know what you are talking about
Getting pregnant is frequently an accident. All kinds of birthcontrol can fail.
If you are pro-life you'd be much better off working to clean up the environment. The damage done to fetus' and new borns by the mercury and lead in the air does more harm than any abortion.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ok...
:popcorn:
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. How and why a woman became pregnant is nobody's business
and should have no bearing on her legal right to terminate her pregnancy.

If it's not your responsibility, it's also not your business to decide for her, is it?
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. "it's not our responsibility. Is it?" !!??!?! really?
A pack of condoms is cheaper than an abortion. Duh.

Getting pregnant is never an accident. Bullshit.

What happened to waiting until you have the resources or support of your family to adequately care for the child. I'd ask the same of the man who assisted.

It is true that many people don't have insurance but if you're pregnant and go to the hospital to deliver the baby you cannot be turned away. What about pre-natal care? And child care and well-baby care? Ah, right... not your responsibility

I'm not against assistance for the mother or the child. I believe a moral and just society should assist when there is a need. But it's important to structure that assistance in such a way that it doesn't foster the mentality that if you want a child but cant pay for it, the government will. If you can't help provide economic and social structures to help women and you don't want them to make another choice, you're creating a very hostile society that will result in more death and violence against, guess who - women and children.

You ask "if your primary concern really and truly is the children, then why not work harder towards prevention, assistance and alternatives yourself?" Well many of us do, but in the end, it's not our responsibility. Is it? Nope. And it's not your choice to make, either. It's so much easier to sit back in judgement.
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brer cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. You rule IsIt1984Yet!
Great comeback,and very welcome words. Thanks for joining DU if you are really new. (I lurked for years before posting, so I know that not all newbies are really new.)
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Tell it like it is!
And welcome to DU!
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Uh, what?
"Getting pregnant is never an accident."

That's a crock. Have you never heard of rape, or hell, even of a condom breaking by accident? Accidental pregnancies happen ALL the time. There is no foolproof method of contraception in existence. Some are really, really safe, but none of them leave zero chance for a surprise.



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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. To clarify - SEX is never an accident, getting pregnant can be.
But, men can't get pregnant, so it's the "promiscuous" woman who are left to make these decisions. And be judged by the likes of you.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Surely you were not serious about this statement:
"I don't think that people who are making $7/hr. should be having children."

Do you mean to say that procreation should be limited to people who meet a certain income standard?
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, good catch.
I was so riled up about everything else I let that point slip.

WTF?
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. It's nice you have an idealistic view
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 11:28 PM by fortyfeetunder
People do want to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, at any income level. But now, when we have pharmacists who are getting the option to refuse to provide contraception to paying customers, funds for contraception services being curtailed in lieu of "abstinence" education. And condoms, fail too. Every form of contraception, even condoms, have a failure rate.

Sure I will agree with you people have to take reproductive responsibility. However what I don't like is the government interfering in a person's ability to seek reproductive responsibility through seeking reliable contraception methods, to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. I think you need to go out there and educate
all the males who don't want to wear condoms....you act as if women become pregnant all by themselves.

'Getting pregnant is never an accident.' Huh? Are you for real? You're kidding, right?

Don't appreciate your ignorance on a topic you feel you have NO responsibility for. Sure hope that condom is strong as steel.




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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wow, you shocked them speechless
There have been no replies to your awesome rant.
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. It's a moderated blog, so there is a delay. We'll see.
But, thanks :blush:
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well done and welcome to DU!
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Thanks!
:hi:
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. This blog gave instructions on how to perform an abortion...
It's very detailed. Just scroll down a little and you'll find it.

http://mollysavestheday.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_mollysavestheday_archive.html#114072799892364390
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Yes, it was linked in LBN, that's how I found it.
And it's drawn quite a bit of attention.

What I found most remarkable is the total lack of comprehension throughout.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. "It's bad; It shouldn't happen; I want it to stop. . .
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 11:41 PM by pat_k
As far as I can tell, a vast majority of the people who identify themselves as "pro-life" have staked out a belief system that begins and ends with the following:
It's bad.
It shouldn't happen.
I want it to stop.
People who don't think it is bad are evil.

Although many would prefer different terms (e.g., "I wish it were unnecessary"), few Americans reject the cluster of ideas that make up this "pro-life core."

A vast majority of Americans incorporate the pro-life core into a more comprehensive system of premises and conclusions that encompasses Constitutional principle and real world implications.

A minority combine the pro-life core with the belief that "If we make a law against it, it will stop" to create a self-contained system that is unsullied by Constitutional principle or real world implications. This minority coined and commandeered the term "pro-life."

Why do we continue to allow this group to have sole custody of a term that applies to us all? I say screw them. It is not pandering to tell the truth: We are all pro-life.

Since a vast majority of Americans have a more comprehensive "pro-life" belief system, we could be "Pro-Life Plus." (Too silly?)

Anyway, if we are all pro-life, how do we convey the Democratic position?

The short version:

Everybody is pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.


Long version:

We are all pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't think that frightened women and their doctors should be thrown in jail. Democrats believe women should never have to face such desperate circumstances -- no health care, poverty wages – that the only option they see is ending a pregnancy.

Democrats are fighting to guarantee access to health care for every single American. Democrats are fighting to guarantee a living wage for every American worker. Democrats are fighting to make it possible for families to have confidence they will be able to give their children, and their children’s children, the life they deserve. Democrats are fighting to give women more options, so they can be assured that when they bare a child, that child will be loved, protected, and provided for, even if they are unable to do so themselves.

Democrats are committed to true individual freedom, which cannot exist without freedom from fear of economic hardship. Democrats know that a vigorous private sector cannot exist if work is not valued. Democrats know that economic security requires access to quality education and medical care. Democrats know how critical those first months are in the life of a child; they know paid family leave benefits all of us. Democrats know that private industry can only flourish and create prosperity for all when the power of the people to protect their interests is embodied in strong public institutions.

We are all pro-life. The difference is that some of those who call themselves pro-life think throwing frightened women in jail is the solution. The threat of jail did not work before 1967. Democrats know we can do better than that.


Key Points
The word "abortion" has become a powerful "stimulus" that provokes a rigid, emotional response. That conditioned response is a barrier to any sort of dialog. If we don't want to evoke the conditioned response, we have to stop using the term. Figure out, and practice using, alternate words and phrases.

Never concede that the Democratic position is NOT pro-life. Assert the fact that the position is pro-life – and assert it with confidence. Simple truths are expressed with simple words. Instead of saying something like “Democrats don’t want to criminalize abortion”, say “Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.”

Examine your assertions. Feelings and imagery shed light too. If your statements are "dry," are there more evocative ways to convey your assertions?

Results
I don't know if I changed any votes, but when I put this to the test while doorknocking for the Kerry campaign, I definitely got some thoughtful looks when I made these points to the people who identified themselves as pro-life.

My standard response to people who said they were voting for Bush because they were pro-life, was "So am I. Probably the only difference is that I don't think frightened women and their doctors should be thrown in jail. John Kerry believes women should never have to face such desperate circumstances -- no health care, poverty wages – that the only option they see is ending a pregnancy."

Sometimes this led to a brief discussion -- sometimes with very encouraging results. But, as I said, even people who cut off the exchange often looked thoughtful. There were a few that looked very taken aback, or sort of blanked, like a circuit shorted out.

It may be hard to fathom, but I'm convinced that many have never thought through what they are fighting for. All they know is that they don't want women to end unplanned pregnancies. They believe it shouldn't happen -- ever. They want it to stop. Period.

Of course, making it illegal doesn't actually accomplish their goal. The notion that they are fighting to put people in jail is a notion they don't seem to have internalized.

Words are important. Simply putting the emphasis on the word "never" seems to make the points more effective (perhaps "never" connects with the attractive simplicity of all or nothing thinking).
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Thank you for posting this.
It's true. We are all pro-life. No one is "pro-abortion" as they claim. Circumstances, some within our realm of control and some not, are not all cookie-cutter and women and their doctors make decisions that are no one else's business.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. This deserves another K&R.
Way to go!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. Bravo!
If anyone objects to your reasoning, then they are stupid idiots,IMHO.
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kiteinthewind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-18-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
34. Getting pregnant is never an accident?? What Planet are you from?
I am a nurse and I teach sex ed, and I guarantee you that at least 50% of pregnancies are 'accidents'. Maybe if rightwingers weren't so busy trying to cram their RELIGIOUS beliefs down our throats, we could all work toward better birth control, therefore less pregnancies. But no, here in good ol' Missouri we are going back to the dark ages. Cut our family planning money, allow pharmacists to refuse to fill BC prescriptions, oh and don't say the word condom or contraception in school because they might think that means 'Go out and have some sex!'. If you REALLY care about preventing abortions, you would FOCUS on preventing unplanned pregnancies. Duh. :spank:
BTW, thanks for the rant, IsIt1984Yet!! :yourock:
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