Stop Buying the "Incompetent" Propaganda. They Are Laughing All The Way

[Solomon]

to the Bank.

They want you to think he's incompetent. So you just sit there and complain. "Incompetence" hides evil intentions. "He's really a good guy personally, he's just incompetent". Sure he is. He's only achieved every thing he set out to do. How is that incompetence?

What a crock of shit people are eating. It boggles the mind how much advantage he gets out of being incompetent. None of us can be incompetent and succeed from the incompetence.

People bought the lie that 9-11 was the result of incompetence. Yet for being so incompetent, he seized more power than any president in history has had.

The war in Iraq was "incompetence" but his family have become billionaires from the money they are making for themselves and their friends as a result.

Katrina was "incompetence" but again, he and his buddies in reality seized another big oil port. He almost got away with getting the frightful power of using the military on american soil.
Not to worry. That's gonna happen soon enough.

Never seen such an example of failing upwards. Everything he does turns to shit but he gets rewarded for it. He appoints people to higher positions who have proven their incompetence. Like Dick Meyers, who got promoted to chair of the joint chiefs for sitting on his ass and doing absolutely nothing on 9-11.

And people cry about affirmative action. All of us are drinking the kool aid. Not just the right wing. We have settled into this cozy cocoon where all of us agree that he's "incompetent." And because of it he continues to get away with murder.

Not only does he get away with it, but if you call what he's doing anything but incompetence, you are shunned and ostracized.

Incompetence. What a fabulous way out.

[Avalux]

1. I agree with you on this.

It's the "hey, look over there" technique; while we're busy chasing bones, they're in the background stealing our rights and our country.

[LuCifer]

2. K&R!

We could ONLY wish these slime were actually incompitent...and not the kiniving cretins that they really ARE...

[demswin06]

3. what if..

we call ir criminal incompetence? Granted I may follow your line of reasoning,but if we can continue to put out there the notion that Bush is moonbat crazy and is a danger to this nation and is incompetent,it will work. :thumbsdown:

[newyawker99]

32. Hi demswin06!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Nite Owl]

4. Can't agree more with you

I was just having this argument with someone the other day. They are not incompetent and they are not dumb either. Incompetence does as you said relieve them of the true responsibility for everything. They wanted things to turn out pretty much the way that they have. Incompetence allows them to say it is someone else's fault, he got bad advice etc. Well he hired these people and he did it with a purpose in mind, he didn't hire them for their competence, he hired them for their ability to follow their plan.

[abluelady]

5. Bush is an evil moron.

You don't have to be smart or competent to have something work. You just need to appeal to the follower mentality. Many people, esp. repugs, are looking to be lead. There may be smart people in the administration, but no way in hell is Bush one of them.

[president4aday]

6. "Faulty intelligence" is another myth;just can't call it...

lies

[salin]

9. Manipulation

[havocmom]

7. K, R, & Agreed!

Yes, he may be incompetent, but he ain't in charge. The folks who are running things know just what they are doing. Picking Poor George part two as the face of things was a stroke of genius. First he plays the good ol boy folks wanna have a beer with (why, I don't know). Then, when people start to notice the damage they are doing to the nation and the world, it's geroge the INCOMPETENT Poster Boy to the rescue as their new cover. Blame it all on george! People will believe he is capable of screwing ANYTHING up!

I wonder if george realizes when things get hot enough for them that he becomes useful only in the fact that he is also expendable to them. If he is losing any sleep, that realization is probably the only reason. He sure as hell doesn't care about the welfare of the nation.

[Chiyo-chichi]

8. I don't buy it, either, but...

I argue that if he IS incompetent, then he needs to be impeached. There are certainly grounds. You are exactly right that none of US can be incompetent and succeed.

Chris Matthews spouts a line, which is also untrue of course, that sometimes Bush* is on his game and other times he's not and you never know which Bush* is going to show up. Even if you swallow that, how many bosses would like to have an employee like that?

How surreal is it that we're talking about the President of the United States here? It would be bad enough if it were the guy in charge of the Self-Help section at Barnes & Noble or the guy who makes your Quarter Pounder.

Bush* works for us. So do our Congresscritters. We cannot afford to have incompetent employees holding our most important job.

[swimboy]

10. I used to think he was either stupid or evil

then I realized he could be both.

Recommended.

[IndyOp]

11. Kick & Rec for the Competent Solomon...

To expose the BFEE. They are highly competent. They do what they want and they get what they want.

:grr:

[Imagevision]

12. Control the media that always helps? -- and they did, Cheny says

no video of dead US. troops retuning -- the media turned it's back on election fraud -- only the government can do this.

[NJCher]

13. You are wrong

He is incompetent and he is stupid. They (Bushco) are incompetent and they are stupid.

The problem is that it's not an issue of stupidity and incompetence. It's an issue of having an effective opposition party to defeat this stupidity and incompetence.

We do not have that.




Cher

[sheelz]

15. Please tell us what he has done that is incompetent?

[glitch]

16. They are incompetent only if you believe they are attempting to govern.

If you stop believing their words and watch only their actions, you realize they are quite competent at their task of looting our country, among others.

[sheelz]

18. My post was in response to post #13.

I don't believe they are incompetent. And I do believe they want to govern. Their idea of governing is to destroy our county and they are fairly successful or we wouldn't be having this discussion and opposition.

They are aberrant and evil!

[glitch]

30. Yes, I was agreeing w/you they're competent, but I don't agree they want

to govern, at least not govern as we've come to expect government in our democracy.

Now, dismantling our democracy, looting our resources, and establishing a fascist state so they can never be made to answer for their crimes, you're right, I am sure they'd love to govern in that form of government.
But that doesn't match their "democracy and liberty" rhetoric, which is why they can get by with their "incompetent" defense with some people.

I wish more people would ignore their words and watch their actions.

[baby_mouse]

101. Katrina, Dubai, Iraq blah blah blah

Major points would have been scored by him if he'd

1. Successfully planned and executed the democratisation of Iraq - he hasn't

2. Clean up Katrina properly - he hasn't

2. Not let Dubai out the bag - he did.

And that's just SOME stuff. What's the position here, he's been allowing himself to be struck by pretzels and falling off his bike on purpose? :crazy:

Definition of competence rules here, if he doesn't have to solve the titled problems in the eyes of his base hes's competent, if he does in ours or according to some objective standard then he he's incompetent.

[sheelz]

14. When I saw people labeling Bush as

incompetent I almost :puke: I tried to warn them. Now, I'm afraid the label is forever stuck.

[WiseButAngrySara]

17. He is Intentionally Incompetent, IMO, and Stupid, and Evil, and Tyrannical

...and while we're discussing the abolishment of propaganda, there is another "myth"/LIE that I wish people would stop giving lip service to; i.e., that B* is Religious! It is all a political ruse; all pretense; all appearances. How can any sane person actually believe that B* is a Christian? It's Rove's mastery of Machiavelli; in The Prince, the appearance of Religion is the most important characteristic that a Leader should have. And you know what? It speaks to Machiavelli's genius for truth telling, that this really works. If you need to spread lies about the enemy party that "they will be taking your Bibles from you if they win" or "there will be abortion on demand" or "homosexuals will be able to marry in a church" etc., you need to appear religious in order to win the blind, and then you steal from the blind. This worked against Richards, and Kerry/Edwards to some extent, and against McCane (one of their own.) Decent people usually don't know how to respond to indecency, and are left defenseless.

:kick: and R!

[CJCRANE]

19. I call it the "Lucky Accident" theory..

as in

"oh look, what a surprise, a catastrophic Pearl Harbor-type incident just happened on our watch!"

[sheelz]

21. And the theory goes like this---

It's an intentional "Lucky Accident" that takes work and success. Then "oh look, what a surprise, a catastrophic Pearl Harbor-type incident just happened on our watch!"

Next step is to undue all New Deal programs and/or privatize the profit while they socialize the risk. Destroy the constitution and name him King.

Incompetence can't do that.

[Solomon]

22. "No one could ever have imagined or aniticipated the attacks on the World

Trade Center on 9-11" said the man who wrote the PNAC papers.

[earth mom]

20. Diabolically Sociopathic...

that's what I see.

I've never bought the "incompetence" argument because everything that has happened has been Totally Deliberate.

[Disturbed]

23. Shrub is a Silverspoon Sociopath.

He is the Sock Puppet for the Neo Fascists. The "incompetent" label is true to the extent that he is not fit for the job of being a Pres. that leads the Nation, protects and defends the people and the land. The RW would rather accept the "incompetent" label than the real one that he is criminal and unfit for the office.

[stevietheman]

46. One can be incompetent and sinister, simultaneously.

Edit: I meant this to be a reply to the original post.

Perhaps much of the incompetence has been willful, but does anyone really think the Dubai slip-up was willful?

Bush is a mixture of both willful and unwillful incompetence. That's perhaps one reason why it's difficult for people to pin down what he's all about.

[Starfury]

24. Exactly!

These so called "incompetents" are busy efficiently looting the country and sticking future generations of Americans with the bill, a bill that will be paid with blood, sweat, and tears. It's happening in plain sight of everyone, but as long as we focus on distractions or believe it's just incompentence in action, the fleecing will continue unabated. And they haven't forgotten about Social Security, they'll return to that soon enough after the election - too much money for them to walk away from.

[Ufomammut]

25. Here's how the ruse works:

Not incompetent = evil

Evil = the people's denial of that evil (reinforced through the press)

Acceptance of evil = non-moderate, tinfoil, conspiracy theorist

The result is interesting: scores of people angered over the press lying and obfuscating while simultaneously parroting the Establishment's preferred line. The question becomes: why is the criticism of so called "incompetence" used so freely?

Answer: America is in the terminal stages of psychological "avoidance."
"Incompetence" is an easier pill to swallow than confronting fascism.

[Jade Fox]

26. Just because you're incompetent doesn't mean you can't be ruthless......

too. Bushco is both. Stupid, arrogant, drunk with power, and determined to hang on.

[sheelz]

83. A person can't be incompetent and ruthless at the same time.

His ruthlessness is a management tool. That's how he chooses to govern. There are ruthless CEOs all over this country. That's how they get where they are. The most ruthless CEOs are the most successful. They view ruthlessness as a strength. So does Bush.




We've made progress, from honest to incompetence. Perhaps, ruthless will be next. General public isn't ready for that. I guess at some point we won't find anything funny about this administration. I just wonder when? Until then, laugh and laugh loud.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Nope. Sorry. He's Completely Incompetent.

Problem is, the american public as a whole are even more incompetent. He's incompetent in so many ways in what his role as President is supposed to be. But the role of the American people is to stand up and ensure that democracy is the will of the people and that government, the constitution and our core values are not compromised or abused and to not tolerate any alternative. Overall in that respect, the American people have been extremely incompetent.

So yes, the administration is severely incompetent. But because the public is even moreso, the adminstration can fail upwards, as you stated.

[Solomon]

31. LOL! Why did I know you would say this. You guys make me laugh this

all this "truth, justice and american way" business as though Bush has the same goals. Wake up and smell the coffee. Stop drinking kool aid. He's very efficient at what he wants to achieve. Which is NOT the things you are talking about.

I absolutely LOVE the way you ultimately blame the public for poor incompetent Bush. Reminds me of ...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Dude, You Seriously Didn't Make Sense There To Me.

Methinks maybe you are drinking spiked Kool Aid :rofl:

My post actually was rooted in logical argument so I'm sorry if you weren't able to understand it. At its core though is nothing that was provocative so I'm sorry you felt the need to respond so bitterly.

Peace be with you solomon! :hi:

[Solomon]

35. Whatever.

Bush is just violating the constitution because he's incompetent. Not because he's trying to intentionally seize power. He's just stupid. He doesn't really mean to be a dictator, he's only being one because he's "comepletely incompetent" as you say.

He's not the stupid one in this scenario. Maybe you can figure it out from here.

[glitch]

107. Ouch. Well said though. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. LMFAO! Maybe You Didn't Catch This Part. I'll Post It Again For Ya LOL

"He's incompetent in so many ways in what his role as President is supposed to be"

In what his role is SUPPOSED to be. Get it?

And do you even know the meaning of incompetent? Maybe you don't. So here, I'll help you out a little and paste it below for you. :hi:


in·com·pe·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-kmp-tnt)
adj.

1. Not qualified in legal terms: a defendant who was incompetent to stand trial.
2. Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application.
3. Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action.

Now dear little solomon, if you don't think that * is unsuited to be or inadequate as president, or that he and his administration is devoid of the qualities requisite to be effective as president, then I wholeheartedly feel for you.

[Occulus]

105. Logic tells me he is only incompetent to certain mindsets.

The REST of us see him for what he truly is: a mastermind of self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement.

There is nothing incompetent about this administration if you begin by presuming that governance is not their primary goal.

Again, certain mindsets do not and will not "get this". This is the type of person that will not believe the leader of our country is there not to lead but to loot. Some people, for whatever, think that sort of thing cannot happen here, in the USA.

Guess what? It has. He fooled you, after all, and an awful lot of other people. I personally find it very difficult to understand how anyone can think there's no common thread of intent in all the actions of this administration. I guess maybe you have to do what I did and pick it all apart for several hours every day, or something... but there is no question, objectively: Bush is very very good at something in his capacity as President, but governance is intentionally not what he is good at.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Blah blah blah, blah blahzay blahzay blah. blah bloo bloo blah, blazay

blazay blah.

That's what just registered in my brain reading that post. Just a bunch of misintentioned babble. Not sure who you thought you were preaching to or what was going through your head thinking you needed to post all that nonsense to me but rest assured you were barking up the wrong tree with that assumptive and quite off the mark rhetoric.

I know quite well what bushco has set out to accomplish, thank you. And you were way off the mark and quite laughable in your assessment that he 'fooled me'. Oh really there guru? He hasn't fooled me for a second, not ever, so please, come down off that high horse and try not to be so quick to rush in like a know it all and issue declarations that make no sense and have no bearing on the poster you are replying to.

[Solomon]

116. LOL. Projecting again as usual.

Some people don't know when to stop or who to mess with.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. Obviously. n/t

[Raksha]

28. The incompetence is a smokescreen

and "plausible" explanation for the evil intentions.

[Ufomammut]

29. Those surrounding Bush call the shots...

And know full well what they're doing. "Incompetence" is the lesser evil-sounding criticism next to just being evil fascists. That's why it's used in our press - not to reflect public opinion, but to manage and create public opinion. The public swallows the lie in order to dodge the ugly truth.

[Raksha]

76. That's exactly what I meant.

"Incompetence" is the propaganda equivalent to copping to a lesser charge. The incompetence meme is a way stalling for time and delaying the moment of accountability because as I said before, it's a smokescreen. Can you imagine a more articulate and obviously capable person like Bill Clinton or John Kerry getting away with this kind of criminal incompetence for this long? Bush may very well be personally incompetent, or a drunk or dope addict or whatever (I have no reason to believe he isn't), but his handlers know good and damn well what they're doing.

[sheelz]

66. That's right!

Plausible deniability

[Terran1212]

34. I mostly agree, but...

I think in some areas they are just plain incompetent, even to their own selfish desires.

[fooj]

36. I agree.

He's a treasonous, lying rat bastard.

peace.

[Swamp Rat]

37. Bushler is totally incompetent as president, BUT

that does not absolve him of his crimes.

I say call him "incompetent" all the way up to his removal from office, then shout "WAR CRIMINAL!" from every rooftop. :)

[sheelz]

39. The problem is incompetency is not a crime....

Bush a criminal. A war criminal. A torture criminal. A constitutional criminal. A white phosphorus criminal. An election stealer criminal A criminal's criminal etc.

[mondo joe]

38. Bushco is incompetent at governing, competent at evil.

One doesn't exclude the other.

[Marie26]

40. That's it. nt

[sheelz]

41. Bush needs fear to govern.

He also uses secrecy and expects unquestioned obedience.

[Marie26]

42. He's competant at the things

he cares about. He cares about power, so has become very good at expanding & solidifying it. He doesn't care about governing, so is completely incompetant at actually running the country.

[sheelz]

44. He's competent because he has an agenda to fulfill

That agenda requires competence. The agenda does not require him to have any goodwill toward the proles. If he was incompetent the agenda could never succeed. Bush is neither incompetent nor a failure. And that's what's scary!

If a person is incompetent it is because he/she needs either training, experience or resources. This doesn't apply to Bush.

If Bush was incompetent, the bleeding heart liberal in me would have to forgive him. I will never forget nor forgive!

[Marie26]

47. I don't know

We're probably splitting hairs here, but Bush's actual governance has been incredibly incompetant, to me. I don't think anyone could look at the mess in Iraq & see competance. The difference is that Bush & co. are incompetant through sheer arrogance. They don't care about the result, or are so absolutely convinced of their own delusions that they won't listen to those w/more experience or knowledge. Then the reality crumbles around them. I truly believe that Bush did think they'd be greeted with flowers & parades when they entered Iraq. They did think they could install Chalabi & cruise right into Syria. That wasn't very competant of them. And really, I think their incompetance is the Achilles' heel of this regime - they even manage to screw up their own evil plans.

[sheelz]

63. Just a couple of things

Sheer arrogance has nothing to do with incompetence. As far as the mess in Iraq, they benefit! They benefit big time! They benefit by their screw ups. Their screw ups allow the to change laws, ignore laws, break laws, trillions of lost $$$$ and enlarge their fascist regime, and that not including torture, warrentless wiretaps, detention centers and the rest.

If I end up at one of their detention centers, they last thing on my mind is gonna be--those incompetent bastards. Damn them! I have no wash cloth. Well....I'm sure is was just a screw up.

[Marie26]

119. arrogance creates incompetance

Like the criminal who thinks he's so smart, the police will never figure out he just robbed a bank, so he uses the getaway car to go for a Sunday drive. Arrogance creates incompetance - I see it all the time. This group of criminals is the same. I'm not sure how they've benefited from the screw-ups in Iraq. The invasion, yes; the screw-ups, no. The screw-ups lower public opinion & make it much harder for them to get support for wiretapping, torture, etc. Once they've lost public trust, people begin to scrutinize the crony contracts, etc. If they'd conducted the invasion competantly, they'd be in much better shape politically right now & much closer to a facist regime. But they've lessened that chance due to their own incompetance & arrogance, IMO. If I end up in a camp, I'll be thinking, those incompetant bastards, I bet they didn't even hire a guard. The incompetance is the weak link here.

[sheelz]

120. They are criminals and not like any ordinary criminals.

He's been getting away with crimes for the past 5 years. They have complete and total power. That's the problem. We have no recourse, no police, no authrities to make this madness stop. We've never seen this before in our country. If you believe we have the making of fascist regime it's extremly difficult to turn back. A facist regime can't come about by mistake or incomptence. It's was planned years ago. Even if we catch them in a flub they are laughing there asses off becasue their is nothing we can do about it. If we tried it could get real bloody.

Bush is for a never ending war. Iraq is a Middle East base. They benefit greatly in numerous ways and they don't care about what the public thinks becasue we can't do anything about it. If we tried it could get real bloody.

I don't care wheather they are comptent or incomptempt criminals--In the end were screwed. They are end gamers. They have a deep belief in "The end justifies the means." If they make mistakes they don't care and/or it's part of the ultimate plan or another opportunity of futher their aganda: World Domination.

If you end up in a camp and those incomptent bastards didn't hire a guard. I'd assume you would try to leave. The "incommptent" bastards just set you up for a one-way ticket on a private jet to Gitmo or some other torture prison in another country. That's one less liberal.

[Marie26]

121. Do you think I don't know these things?

Please don't assume that I'm an idiot. We are not screwed - that's my point. They make too many mistakes, & are too incompetant even in their evil. I'm tired of the defeatism & hopelessness that's common on this site. They're not gods; they're not even particularly bright. Whatever their plans, I believe their mistakes will do them in eventually. We may not have much power, but right now, they're not laughing. They're worried. People are resisting, & pushing back, & not buying the propaganda anymore. So, in that sense, it does matter whether they are incompetant or competant criminals. My camps example was a metaphor - I meant that the incompetance of this regime is a weakness, & a weakness that we can & should take advantage of. It's a know thy enemy thing.

[HughBeaumont]

43. HE'S "incompetent". His puppetmasters and gladhanders AREN'T.

Bewsh can get away with being a dumb tard because his presidency is pretty much on autopilot. He takes an eight-year nap while neo-clowns like Cheney, Rumsferatu, Rice, Rove, Wolfowitz and the complicit Reps, Senate and Courts give the military and corporations blank checks straight from Joe and Jane C Taxpayer.

And that's what it is: disaster, criminality and poor-screwing happen, but because Presidunce has the name, the "aw shucks" dumb guy act and a complicit media to sweep neo-clown tracks up every time he appears to have "made a mess of things, heh heh heh", he lives his life under the largest umbrella ever created.

I definitely cannot and will not blame 9/11 on "incompetence". One only needs to look at The Terror Timeline for that theory to be blown out of the water. These assholes had a hand in it, plain and fucking simple.

[sheelz]

45. That means Bush should not be held accountable.

So we should forget censure and impeachment? Perhaps we should feel sorry for him because puppetmasters and gladhandlers have his ass??

[Marie26]

48. How does that follow?

You can think he's incompetant & still believe he should be held accountable for what he & his Administration have done.

[sheelz]

51. Is incompetence a crime?

[Marie26]

52. Is evil a crime?

I think there's a flaw in the OP's post when he assumes that those who say Bush is incompetant are giving him on "out". I don't see that. Somebody can be evil & incompetant - there's no reason those two terms need to be mutually exclusive. Most evil people are pretty incompetant, since they have no understanding of other people beyond themselves. Neither one is itself a crime. The crimes are the actions taken, whether as a result of planning, incompetance, or both. Warrantless spying, breaking treaties, torturing prisoners, abandoning New Orleans, etc. So the whole "Is it incompetance or evil" argument seems like a false debate to me. Bush could be both, but the motives aren't as important as the actions.

[sheelz]

55. It's the evil actions that are a crime.

He is breaking the law! Both international and national laws. Is he incompetently breaking the law or competently breaking the law? Helen Thomas asked Puffy MCMoon Face the other day whether Bush knew he was breaking international law. He's got some smart people around him. Do you think they haven't told him if he is really incompetent. Or are they just incompetent too. Many of them are lawyers and/or have lawyers. In fact, lawyers actually work for the Administration. I would think they know he's breaking and law and advise him accordingly. If not, how did they get through law school?

If I break the law can I say, can I claim to be incompetent? Will the judge let me off? Would Bush incompetently let any liberal off or pardon them?

Based on your examples above:
Does Bush incompetently issues warrentless spying?
Bush incompetently breaks treaties?
Bush incompetently orders torturing prisoners?
Bush incompetently abandoned New Orleans?

My answer is hell no! Nobody is that incompetent. A five-year-old would know the people of New Orleans need food and water.

---> What has he done incompetently? Give a specific example of his incompetence.

Everybody is incompetent in something but this is not the case. He is pure evil with an agenda. It's not a false debate. Do you think he just made a mistake and didn't know what he was doing. If that's the case then that is the definition of insane. Evil acts are intentional. Incompetence is unintentional, unless it is all an act. If it's an act then it's intentional.

Basically, it comes down to his intentions. Do you think Bush has good intentions? Incompetent people have good intentions they just do a poor job. Is Bush doing a poor job? I would say the depends which side of the isle your on and/or you are the one reaping benefits.

So, how can the President of the United States be held accountable when he steals elections and does so intentionally and competently?

[Marie26]

56. are we agreeing or disagreeing?

I'm really not sure. I said that it is the illegal actions that matter. You seem to be bound & determined to disagree with me, even if it means putting words into my mouth. Yes, these are evil actions. What's more, they're illegal actions justifying impeachment, IMO. But this Administration is also incredibly incompetant, by it's very nature. Anytime someone gets power who refuses to listen to experts' opinions, arrogantly assumes that their way is the only way, & absolutely won't change course - that person is going to be incompetant, because he's not seeing reality. Even assuming Bush is pure evil, he's still incompetant at being evil. They sunk the ports deal, turned "Mission Accomplished" into civil war, & launched a PR "Operation Swarmer" that turned into a bust. They don't always win. That gives me hope - if the Dems. don't sink them, I think their own incompetance will (maybe already has).

[sheelz]

59. disagreeing

You're giving Bush an out. Saying he's incompetent won't hold up in any fair court. Incompetence is not a crime and Bush is a criminal.

[Marie26]

60. That's not what I'm saying

over and over again. You don't seem to understand the law very well. Incompetance (or evil) is not a crime, right? "Incompetance" would never be a charge, or a defense. Bush's crimes are the actual crimes of violating FISA law, UN treaties, laws against torture, etc. That's what he'd be charged with, & that's what he'd have to deny doing/approving. His "crimes" are completely different from his "personality". Whether he's incompetant, evil, whatever, isn't relevant to whether his Administration has committed crimes - the actions themselves are. I understand that you're upset that some people may use Bush's "incompetance" to pretend that he had good intentions, but I'm not one of them. I think he's incompetant & has bad intentions. That happens. There are many incompetant criminals - they're still criminals.

[sheelz]

62. I'm not a lawyer.

Incompetence could be used as a defense. That's what I'm upset about. Using the word incompetent gets him off the hook. See the definition of incompetence below.

in·com·pe·tent Audio pronunciation of "incompetence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-kmp-tnt)
adj.

1. Not qualified in legal terms: a defendant who was incompetent to stand trial.
2. Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application.
3. Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action.



--> a defendant who was incompetent to stand trail


That means he can't be held for "the actual crimes of violating FISA law, UN treaties, laws against torture, etc."

Why: Because you and the general public claim he is incompetent. Once that meme becomes accepted as now it is very hard to get the people to support censure or impeachment. Even worse he could be found incompetent to stand trial.

[Marie26]

64. I am one - that's not true

"Incompetant to stand trial" is a completely different standard - it basically means you are mentally incapable of understanding the charges against you, and so cannot stand trial. It is only used when the Defendant is severely retarded or mentally ill to the point that he cannot understand the charge, or assist in his own defense. This standard is so strict, many retarded defendants are still expected to stand trial. If the Defendant is labeled "legally incompetant to stand trial," he is sent to a mental hospital instead of being tried. It's a legal term, and has nothing to do with the normal use of the word "incompetant".

I'm glad that I understand now where you were coming from. There is no way that Bush could ever claim he is "legally incompetant to stand trial." At all. This defense is only meant for Defendants who are completely mentally gone. His education, high-level jobs, etc. would preclude this - just the fact that he can read would preclude this. Trust me when I say an attorney would laugh at this as a defense for Bush. So, you don't have to worry about Bush's "incompetance" in his job having any effect at all on his ability to stand trial for his crimes. In the same way, it shouldn't have any effect on a censure or impeachment motion - the relevent evidence is simply whether Bush has broken the law; since Bush has admitted ordering the NSA spying, etc, it'd be pretty open & shut. His alleged incompetance as a President wouldn't help him, instead, it actually spurs public opinion against him. You're fighting based on some flawed assumptions here. Most criminals are pretty incompetant - but they get tried & convicted for their crimes all the same. Bush is no different.

[sheelz]

75. I'm really confused?

You say your a lawyer but you didn't answer my question when I asked if incompetence is a crime?

Then you said "Bush could be both, but the motives aren't as important as the actions." Since when are motives not important to a lawyer?

Then you asked me if we are agreeing or disagreeing. I've never seen a lawyer unable to tell whether someone is agreeing or disagreeing with them. Did my stance change? Did yours? If so, then how?

Then you said this, "His education, high-level jobs, etc. would preclude this - just the fact that he can read would preclude this." Do you have a link for this. Mental health experts make that decision mot lawyers.

I thought lawyers had great analytical skills, perhaps I'm wrong.

One more try:

Here is your example of Bush's incompetence: "I don't think anyone could look at the mess in Iraq & see competence. The difference is that Bush & co. are incompetent through sheer arrogance. They don't care about the result, or are so absolutely convinced of their own delusions that they won't listen to those w/more experience or knowledge. Then the reality crumbles around them. I truly believe that Bush did think they'd be greeted with flowers & parades when they entered Iraq. They did think they could install Chalabi & cruise right into Syria. That wasn't very competent of them. And really, I think their incompetence is the Achilles' heel of this regime - they even manage to screw up their own evil plans."

Here is what his daddy thought: In explaining to Gulf War veterans why he chose not to pursue the war further, he said, "whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho? We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power — America in an Arab land — with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

He ignored what his poppy refused to do and that was his choice. That's not incompetence it's willful disregard.


Peace.

[Ufomammut]

78. Agreed - I'll never buy the whole...

"They really believed they'd be greeted with flowers" bullshit. These are cold, calculating people who consciously plan mass murder and unconstitutionality. Those who cling to the "incompetency" theory do so only because their psychological make up requires or prefers it.

I don't believe anyone is saying that evil fascists cannot be simultaneously incompetent, but the true debate of this topic reflects the much deeper impact of mainline propaganda and collective denial. Irrespective of how much and how often the people are lied to by their press, many still cannot face the true extent of that fact. Hence, the media-offered "incompetence" criticism is widely adhered to by many dems whose views have been systematically shifted to the right over the years. It settles better than facing the fact that their government is actively planning for complete totalitarianism ...and on numerous levels is already well on the way.

[sheelz]

87. Thanks so much for your beautiful post.

I really wish it had been flowers instead of war. War doesn't bring flowers...only on coffins. I just realized perhaps it's doublespeak. I've cried many a tear over the idea of complete totalitarianism. Just the steps are painful enough. :cry: :hug:

[Marie26]

117. The only insight we have

into this Admin. Cabinet is Lawrence Wilkerson, Powell's Chief of Staff. According to him, "Cheney's cabal" was actually running the war plans; and they believed that the invaders would be welcomed, they could install Chalabi as PM, and withdraw all troops in 90 days. That's nuts. But they apparantly believed it - because it went so nicely w/their own plans to keep on going into the next country. That hasn't happened, because they were stopped by their own incompetant planning.

Cheney has a very long history of incompetant planning, as does Bush. There's an ancedote about the first Gulf War - Schwarzkopf was discussing the plan to move troops into Kuwait, when Cheney proposed his own plan - dropping a few paratroopers deep into Iraq & letting them cruise into Baghdad, where Saddam would promptly surrender. Schwarzkopf was horrified & quickly nixed the plan. Cheney is evil, but he's also incompetant. I think the same is true of Bush. If we think they are evil geniuses, I think that's giving them a power they really don't have. They are often incompetant in accomplishing their own evil goals. I do believe they're planning for totalitarianism, I just don't think they'll succeed.

That's different than assuming that they're simply poor misguided souls who are acting "incompetantly", but truly have America's best interests at heart. I agree that that can be a last psychological refuge for people who can't believe they have malicious motives. Even so, you can tell people are questioning now what their true motives are. Especially during the port deal, many Repubs. started to question this Admin.'s real interests. So, I think the propaganda is loing effect. When Americans think Bush is "incompetant", they've stopped drinking the kool-aid. It's just a short step to questioning what the real motives are. Rove is not happy that 40%+ of Americans think Bush is incompetant - those people are lost to them, for good. If they were truly competant w/the invasion & propaganda, the approval rating would still be 90% now instead of in the basement. They're failing, & they know it.

[Marie26]

110. Willfully confused?

I think so. How could you possibly think incompetance is a crime? I assumed that was a rhetorical question - but maybe not. I seek agreement where possible, and since we both believe 1.) Bush has committed crimes, & 2.) He should be held accountable for those crimes, I really don't see the source of disagreement, except that you consistently misunderstand my posts.

Motive is not important for criminal liability - what matters is intent. Did he intend to do an specified illegal action? If the answer is yes, he is liable & guilty for that crime. Whether he's motivated by hate, evil or incompetance doesn't matter in a criminal sense. You consistently confuse what is needed for a legal prosecution & defense. Normal incompetance is not a defense to a crime.

No link for the fact that a President of the United States does not qualify as mentally incompetant to stand trial. Did you notice that your dictionary had 3 definitions - meaning 3 meanings for the word incompetant? The legal definition of "incompetance" is very different from the popular definition, yet you somehow confuse it to mean that a normal incompetant person can't be charged w/a crime. Google it if you don't believe me. Check the "Stupid Criminals" file if you don't believe me.

Poppy Bush was competant, Bush Jr. is not. It's that simple. The example you quoted at me is rank, total incompetance & indifference. Bush Jr. did ignore his father & listened to the advisors who told him what he wanted to hear. People have an amazing ability to delude themselves when they want to. The Iraq occupation was done incompetantly, because Bush didn't listen to reality & still won't. He's benefited from the war profiteering, but the incompetant invasion hurt the success of future wars, & may end his presidency.

I think you have some problems with your reading comprehension, & your legal knowledge; & I am probably wasting time by continuing to respond. I don't understand your reactions here, but it seems to me that you have very black-and-white thinking. Either he's a evil genius or a poor bumbling fool we should feel sorry for. Since you do not want to feel sorry for Bush, you overreact against anyone who dares to suggest some of his actions are simple incompetance. I have the feeling you're arguing, not with me, but with your own sneaking pity for the guy. It's projection, IMO. You keep saying I want to give him an "out" when I've said nothing of the kind. You can believe some actions show incompetance, & also believe he's an evil bastard who needs to be held accountable. Please try to really read & understand my post before reacting.

[sheelz]

123. Do you feel better?

:sarcasm:

You wrote this quote: "I think you have some problems with your reading comprehension, & your legal knowledge; & I am probably wasting time by continuing to respond. I don't understand your reactions here, but it seems to me that you have very black-and-white thinking. Either he's a evil genius or a poor bumbling fool we should feel sorry for. Since you do not want to feel sorry for Bush, you overreact against anyone who dares to suggest some of his actions are simple incompetence. I have the feeling you're arguing, not with me, but with your own sneaking pity for the guy. It's projection, IMO. You keep saying I want to give him an "out" when I've said nothing of the kind. You can believe some actions show incompetence, & also believe he's an evil bastard who needs to be held accountable. Please try to really read & understand my post before reacting."

Allow me to examine:

I comprehend just fine. Your the one that asked if we are "agreeing or disagreeing" in your post #56. I suggest you take your own suggestions. :spank: The problem is you haven't thought this through. Look at you original post . You globbed on to someone else's point of view and made it your own without question and thought. Now your trying to defend it. By doing so your rewarding them. Please don't reward them.

As fas as projection, it's you not me. In your post #52 you said, "I think there's a flaw in the OP's post when he assumes that those who say Bush is incompetent are giving him on "out." Let me help you comprehend. That means you disagree with the OP. I agree with the OP. Both the OP and myself believe that by calling Bush incompetent is giving him an out. I also believe that anybody giving Bush an out could be "sneaking pity." That describes your stance not mine.

As far as the legal stuff--I posted about plausible deniability. Think about that one. It's "hard work" to get oneself into the Hague. I guess Bush prefers the incompetent way to the Hague. Bottom line.. If Bush ever gets to prison continue your incompetence chant, along with the rest if the country, if it makes you feel better. He will be define by a single word: incompetent. Will they say. "Too bad he wasn't more competent in his presidency. His crimes could have been worse." :sarcasm: Incompetence is a defense in legal terms and in public opinion a psychological defense. Called denial. It's your defense you are using right now.


Obviously, your not ready. Re-read post #78 again.

[Marie26]

124. Yes, actually

I finally stopped being nice & said flat-out that you don't know what you're talking about, and you clearly don't. I'm done responding to your numerous, uninformed & insulting posts.

[sheelz]

126. Here's a study

Incompetent People Really Have No Clue, Studies Find
They're blind to own failings, others' skills

Link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL

<Snip>
"Incompetent individuals were less able to recognize competence in others,'' the researchers concluded.

No response necessary.

Peace

[Marie26]

145. Darnit

I knew I should've put you on ignore. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make me incompetant. You've tried to argue about legal issues that you are clearly not competant to understand, yet you continued to argue them. Instead of responding w/reasons, you're responding w/insults. Instead of reading posts, you overreact.

I understand your point, which is that anyone who says Bush can be incompetant is a facist appeaser who should be purged from the Revolution, but I disagree. If there's anything that scares me more than the neocons, it's the radical conformists who immediately seem to label & demean anyone who thinks for themselves. Sorry, I'm not changing my opinion & you're not changing yours - and, in a free society, people are allowed to have different opinions. That's how democracy works - and just because a person has a different viewpoint does not automatically mean that they are incompetant, or appeasers, or worthy of disdain. Why don't you go attack someone else who's disagreed? There are a few others on this thread - smoke'em out! Make sure nobody ever again says something that doesn't conform w/your own personal opinion. Then, we can all think alike in perfect brainwashed bliss.

[sheelz]

146. I'd never purge anyone.

You scare the shit out of me by using words like that! Don't put words like that in my mouth.

Then you said, "Sorry, I'm not changing my opinion & you're not changing yours - and, in a free society, people are allowed to have different opinions. That's how democracy works - and just because a person has a different viewpoint does not automatically mean that they are incompetent, or appeasers, or worthy of disdain. Why don't you go attack someone else who's disagreed? There are a few others on this thread - smoke'em out! Make sure nobody ever again says something that doesn't conform w/your own personal opinion. Then, we can all think alike in perfect brainwashed bliss."

LOL, your the one who wanted to put me on ignore. :rofl:

[Marie26]

147. ... but I didn't

Because I want my actions to reflect what I believe. Everyone's got a right to their POV, & I'm not going to "censor" people just because I don't like what they're saying, or even if I think it's BS. So, I can't get the pleasure of saying "Welcome to my ignore list!". Darnit. Oh, well.

[Occulus]

108. You're making some pretty basic assumptions, though,

and they're not necessarily true. For example:

"Anytime someone gets power who refuses to listen to experts' opinions, arrogantly assumes that their way is the only way, & absolutely won't change course - that person is going to be incompetant, because he's not seeing reality."

That's only true if they're doing those things because they don't know any better. H2O Man taught something to us all on the Plame threads way back when: ask why. What's the motive? In the above quote, for example, I could say it's entirely possible such a person ha an agenda of their own that precludes listening to any form of 'reality' on XYZ Issue, as he or his friends stand to benefit by NOT listening to experts and instead doing things 'their way'.

That's not incompetence, IMO.

"Even assuming Bush is pure evil, he's still incompetant at being evil. They sunk the ports deal, turned "Mission Accomplished" into civil war, & launched a PR "Operation Swarmer" that turned into a bust."

I'll speak to the civil war part. With all the contractors in Iraq, this certainly does enrich him and his friends (and Cheney's friends, many of whome are in business and doing quite well from all this 'incompetence'). Again, he shows competence in one key area: making astronomically high piles of money for himself and his friends, no matter the cost to others.

In any crime, murder for example, money has been known since time immemorial to be a strong motivator. Many, many people would do things others might see as 'incompetent' in order to make money. It's very intentional, but unless you know the motive, their actions seem a mystery.

[Marie26]

112. I agree with that

The key is to understand their true motives. And those motives are varied & diverse even within the Administration, I think. So, I think it's simplistic to say that it's all a part of their evil plan, or that it's all a result of misguided incompetance. I agree that Bush may be acting willfully because of ulterior motives, but it also results in incompetance in achieving those ends. Iraq, for an example, was such a disaster that they now no longer have the troops or support for another war. Even if you believe they truly want to conquer the Mideast, the incompetant invasion has stalled & weakened that plan. The port deal was so badly handled, they had to give up that lucrative investment (yes, short-term). I doubt the Harriet Miers uproar was part of their evil plan.

Even assuming money is their only goal, they're making mistakes & are becoming incompetant. Even the propaganda isn't as good as it used to be. ("Operation Swarmer" was no "Shock & Awe" campaign, Americans aren't following the Iran drumbeats.) They're getting tired & are acting incompetantly even in areas they used to be good at. So I agree that Bushco. has ulterior motives, but I do believe that they're also just incompetant. What the percentage is is anyone's guess. I liked another poster's thought that Bush uses both willful & accidental incompetance to the point that you can't tell them apart anymore.

[Karenina]

130. I notice a consistent glaring error

in all of your posts...

[Kailassa]

132. Would you like to explain for the benefit of the rest of us?

Or is constructive criticism too difficult?

[Marie26]

142. Which is... nt

[Karenina]

152. It has to do with attention to detail

the power of close observation, earnestly scrutinizing others' posts and correcting oneself when in error...

[Marie26]

155. How am I in error?

I'd appreciate it if you could enlighten me. God knows, I'm sick of this thread, but if my posts are really, truly, factually wrong, I'd like to know it. Just the fact that you may have a different perspective does not count. Though, you haven't told me your own opinion, so I wouldn't know. People have offered lots of different perspectives here, & I'd be hard-pressed to say what's empirically "wrong" because we're not discussing actual facts, so much as speculating about the motives & agenda behind those facts. Unless we're Bush, none of us really knows, for sure, what's going on. I'm not sure how you can be certain I'm "wrong," yet not tell me exactly how or where I'm in error. That's not particularly helpful.

[Karenina]

156. Way back in the wayback

when spoiled Rock 'n Roll princes had obscure clauses inserted into their contracts which stipulated things like removing all the red M&Ms, their motivation was to ensure the promoters ACTUALLY READ THE CONTRACT THOROUGHLY. Every "i" dotted, every "t" crossed. Legal docs, NO ERRORS.

Check your Inbox.

[rman]

68. The fact that Bush doesn't make the plans

doesn't mean he doesn't know he's participating in crimes.
He's not so much a puppet as he is a front man. If he's a puppet then he's a knowing and willing puppet. Either way he's far from innocent.

[sheelz]

69. I agree

I was questioning post #43.

[rman]

70. I don't think HughBeaumont is saying * is innocent. nt

[HughBeaumont]

133. No. He deserves to go to the Hague with the rest of them.

Incompetence doesn't equate to innocence and I never said AT ALL that he should be allowed to get off scot-free for any of the stupid decisions (more like non-decisions) made on his watch. My statement merely expresses frustration at him being allowed, by mostly his media and loyalists, to get away with his sporting of the thickest coat of Teflon political history has ever seen.

We should just as, if not more unforgiving, to his Junta when the time comes.

[rucky]

61. They can't all act like reptiles all the time...

somebody has to pretend to get elected.

[rman]

67. Fair enough but then W's incompetence is irrelevant

The W gang and those who's interests they represent are quite competent at making us over to suit their pleasure.

[ClassWarrior]

77. That may be true, but saying it still allows folks to sympathize...

...with the criminal bastard**.

Bush** isn't an idiot. He just plays one on TV.

NGU.

[HughBeaumont]

134. I'm not giving him credit for having any kind of brains.

He's a functional sociopath, not smart, not feeling and a blatant manipulator and liar, as he has been throughout history. And because of his name, one who comes coated with extra-strength Teflon. In other words, the perfect face for a criminal Republican meat grinder.

[TahitiNut]

106. He's a competent puppet - a pathological narcissist.

At best, Junior is maliciously negligent. Cheney is the de facto CEO, with Rumsfeld as COO. The cabal uses Junior as a front man - a mere fund-raising Chatty Cathy, programmable and manipulable.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

49. I just don't think they care either way.

Their goal is to rape, pillage and plunder our country. They don't care about public opinion polls, whistleblowers, watchdogs or anything else that politicians usually react to. They don't care about Congressional censure or international condemnation - hell, they don't even care what other Republicans think.

That's because they're not politicians. They are pirates. Should the people amass with torches and pitchforks, or the military turn on them and stage a coup, all these criminals will do is move more quickly to load the bullion onto the planes. Every dupe and flunky who works to protect them, who thinks he will reap the rewards of his loyalty, will be thrown to the wolves as his masters make their escape.

They don't need incompetence as an out. They're out.

[sheelz]

57. Bravo!

Well said!

[glitch]

109. They're not out yet, and plausible deniability may come in handy still

Or maybe at one point early on they thought they might need it and they never bothered to change the meme, because as pirates they'll never feel safe and they really don't care what anyone thinks about them anyway.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

50. Bush is Evil, the Democrats are incompetent.

As much as I hate that word, it best describes Bush.

I don't understand what it is going to take to finally wake the American People up to the fact that BushCo cares FUCK ALL about our country or our People.

[bridgit]

53. i say stop buying all that "he has seasoned in the position" nonsense...

and all that "he has always been a stone cold political & statistical genius" crap; his handlers from the disgraced nixon & depleted reagan admin's knew perfectly well that that 'deer in the headlights' look of his, was just what they were looking for in a bully puppet

every single enterprise he has ever undertaken has ended up just like this one: in smoking ruin longing for a crony, no-bid bail-out

he IS incompetant...they are bush; and his expectations of competance that are low, if not the lowest in the history of this nation. and if that is not in summary: incompetance...then there is no definition of it imo

[Harald Ragnarsson]

58. Incompetence if your aim is to lead the country well

That isn't his goal. Believe it or not.

[bridgit]

81. I've said it before here in GD...too many may feel it is a passing...

statement, but he & his daddy's little hublet of 'thinkers', beyond all is said & done they believe that from chaos comes order...you just need the money to ride it out that's all. his family made money selling the shovels & implements to & for they that went out west and explored this nation.

they don't dig trenches...other people dig trenches. they don't fight wars...other people fight wars. they don't drill oil wells...other people drill oil wells. if they can make war-bucks selling body armour & making Burger King whoppers w/cheese in a field mess then they will. if they can buy a family farm, or a manufacturing sector, or a collection of economically teetering wildcat oil men, via a leveraged buy-out (see Carlyle) as a result of a generation of male, or female, family members having been dislodged from the operation by way of, oh, say: death; causing the business to enter into receivership, or economic downturn...they will.

but is that "competence"?

i suggest otherly. i suggest that to be: nefarious activity, animal cunning. i suggest it is not competence to throw a hammer through a window, to then simply stand there with some over inflated putty and pane glass. that, imo, is criminal mischief.

or, perhaps, unless & until we are to associate a spider with competence; which is plenty true enough. while even the 'competent' spider, in this world, is seen on a sliding scale, and food to the higher functional competence of chickens...and crow.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

100. I believe their goal is to destroy the US militarily, economically

and constitutionally and bring the USA into the New World Order, World Government.

I think they are quite competent in their work.

[bridgit]

114. Transition to Oligarchy, our apathy is their greatest reward...

http://www.constitution.org/shad4816.htm

[baby_mouse]

99. TRUE.

What POSSIBLE use could he have for a 36% approval rating? It's a STAIN.

Hey, babe!

:wave:

back briefly. Did YOU send me that e-valentine?

[bridgit]

115. baby_mouse!!!

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hug: :hug: :hug: :pals:

"e-valentine"? well, no dear but...

I'll take the credit for it!! :thumbsup: :loveya:

[nofurylike]

54. absolutely. k&r eom

[upi402]

65. criminal? sociopath?

satan spawn!
:rofl:

[baby_mouse]

71. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

Also, malice and deception IS stupidity, from a certain point of view.

[Ufomammut]

74. How does the calculated planning of crime, misery and murder *not*....

Invlove premeditation and "malice?"

[baby_mouse]

92. Well, your inverted commas have already slightly weakened the term, no?

What do YOU mean by it?

I don't think the majority of repubs, even the higher up ones (this excludes the freeps who are genuinely possessed) gain any particular pleasure from inflicting suffering on innocent people, they just don't care about it. It's the anger of the left they enjoy, and that's not really *malice*, that's just babyish, smug nastiness. It's also incompetence, because one should make an effort to take into account any bad feeling brought about by ones actions and mitigate it where possible, if one's a serious politican.

It's the image of the vast, all-controlling sinister Right Wing conspiracy that I find slightly laughable. If you look at what Bush&Co have been doing 90% of the reason they're still in power is due to their taking advantange of the partisan ignorance of the American masses (no flame-wars, please). Frankly, I don't think the Right has the imagination to spawn the kind of sinister mind-games that seem to be so popular amongst the "don't fall for the 'aw-shucksness'" crowd over *here*. They don't have to have it, either, they don't NEED to play mind games, word games are quite sufficient. It's entirely clear from the trolls that post here that the Right has no clue at all how the left thinks.

Take the NSA warrantless wiretaps, from the "compentent conspirators" position they must have leaked this to scare everybody, but why bother? It would have been much more efficient to keep it hidden and actually *use* it.

Why let the Dubai ports deal out of the bag? It's almost impossible to spin.

Why fuck up Katrina when in fact they would have scored MAJOR points by actually clearing up the mess? Their whole game depends on an image of powerful, controlling, caretaking masculinity. There's NO ADVANTAGE in portraying yourself as a powerful, controlling couldn't-care-less (yes, it's "couldn't" on this side of the pond, I don't really understand the US version) petty pseudo-machoness. That's one sure way to guarantee yourself a punch in the face.

To me the whole idea of a fake lunatic with almost limitless predictive power of how everyone's going to react to what he does is something out of a science fiction novel. Nobody's that smart, not even 12 people working closely together on maintaining such an illusion could pull it off. The Universe isn't a giant piece of clockwork, in the end some unforeseen event would insert itself into the cogs and lever the whole thing apart.

I think there WAS a concerted effort to try to portray a genuinely stupid man as someone who looked stupid but wasn't, however. But that, as we have seen, turned out to be an even more fragile machine than the one the OPer would have to assume was in play...

In fact, the only goal that the current US administration could possibly be aiming for if EVERYTHING they've done so far was carefully calculated and *successful* is popular revolution. Which *cannot* be true.

Ergo - he's a nitwit.

[Ufomammut]

148. I've already explained my views on this...

Had you understood the points I've already made, you wouldn't require further clarification. So, I'm unsure as to why you want me to repeat myself when you're clearly going to hold to your own view and believe whatever you wish to. No offense, but further debate is a moot point.

[baby_mouse]

93. 2nd thought: Of course, he could be incompetent AND evil.

But he's CERTAINLY incompetent, even as a fascist.

[bklyncowgirl]

72. The Bush administration, where corruption meets incomptetence.

I don't see why there has to be a choice here--clearly they are both corrupt and incompetent.

[Ufomammut]

73. Clearly there are those who fail to understand the finer points of...

How propaganda works, and why.

[baby_mouse]

96. What is the advantage to having an apparently "incompetent" leader?

Why would they PLAN this?

He's sinister and evil = Kick him out!

or

He's incompetent and thicker than pigshit = Kick him out!

They only propaganda that actually works to their advantage is the propaganda they've been openly spouting, that he's a regular, moral guy with tough choices to make.

You seem to be saying that they're inserting a sort of "sub"-propaganda of his being a bit cack-handed about some things to head off the view that he's an evil fascist at the pass - this is a new trick on me. LOOKS damn fiendish cunning if it's true, but really not a good move, much better to paintball the critics levelling "evil" at you with "paranoid" straight back. Falling back to "No, really I'm just a bit dim, please don't call me evil" doesn't make any sense to me, how would it help *them*? The only advantage I can see is dividing the left into "kick him out, he's stupid" vs "No! kick him cos he's evil!" camps, and the amount of time wasted discussing these things will be miniscule compared to the actual time spent working on kicking him out as BOTH sides will wake up damn pretty quick as soon as he makes any moves and get back to cooperating on kicking him out! If they're smart enough to try that kind of division they'll be smart enough to see that the time it buys CAN'T LAST. It ends up wasting THEIR time.

Propaganda is generally SIMPLE. Once I've seen leaks to the effect that someone in those wormy corridors has been deliberately trying to convince their opposition that he's dim and therefore easily taken out or forgiven I'll buy this, but for now it just seems too complicated.

I can't get over the feeling that those putting about the idea that's he's playing up to the dumb image to fool his die-hard opponents into ignoring his REALLY evil agenda just want something even more sinister to fight against. His REALLY evil agenda's wide open for everyone to see, he's made no real attempt to hide it at all!

Personally, I'm *more* than happy to bat him off his perch for pretending to be competent and screwing everything up.

[glitch]

104. Plausible deniability saved Reagan. These guys are nothing but reruns.nt

[baby_mouse]

136. Hm. Did Raygun ever fall to 36% approval ratings?

I see what you're saying, but I think Bush is faaaaaar worse for the Repubs now than Raygun was for them then. And he was a major headache, as I recall. Also Raygun was in fact genuinely senile, no? I've no info that he was playing that up :shrug: (weird :wtf: tactic. If evidence is available for this, I *may* concede. Only may, mind :D)

Surely plausible deniability only works for prez's that are publically percieved as otherwise competent? The OPer was putting about that the *incomptence* meme was government generated. The "aw-shucksness" certainly, but actively (albeit covertly) painting your leader as useless?! I'm sorry, I still can't see it.

[glitch]

139. Hopefully we'll find out if it'll work or not.

It would mean actually attempting to bring them to justice, which would allow us to see how they defend themselves.

I think the incompetence relates more to their actions not matching their rhetoric: in saying they are governing they are bound to look incompetent because in reality they are looting. No real attempt to govern unless you can call dismantling the institutions of government so that you can loot the public trust "governing". They are quite competent at looting.
But incompetence as a meme may still come in handy in the long run, especially when sentencing comes down, so why toss an possible asset?

Their enemies definitely underestimate them, incompetent is somehow less frightening than corrupt.

I don't think there is an "otherwise competent" restriction to the plausible deniability defense.

I believe Reagan was in the early stages of Alzheimers when he left office, he did become senile but it took awhile.

[Ufomammut]

137. If propaganda is "simple," as you claim, then why....

Has it worked so magnificently in distorting the facts of American domestic and foreign policy for the past fifty years? Because, your perspective on a lack of propaganda, or at least a significant downplaying of its deep seated effects, would necessitate an appalling degree of apathy and ignorance on behalf of our populace.

If there is no effective propaganda (a completely uninformed perspective) then one would have to conclude that many of us are unconscionable, heartless and grotesquely stupid. I mean, the basic level propaganda of chauvinsim and nationalism alone does a great deal in redirecting the human conscience away from morality and concern for others.

You state that propaganda is simple, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, and decades of studies on the topic easily disprove that, and, in fact, reveal why many Americans naturally disavow its effectiveness.

Brainwashed people are generally incapable of discerning that they are indeed brainwashed: that's the point. The term "brainwashed" alone, for many people, is equated with some type of bizarre, esoteric "science fiction" procedure, when in reality, people are brainwashed, so to speak, through the values and social norms they are raised around/within, continually exposed to, and come to internalize "for themselves" as they mature. Thus the individuated and collective psychological dynamics in realtion to the nexus of corporate-state propaganda is quite nuanced, and requires room to shift strategies on a daily basis - from the point of view of those who own and operate the mainline press, which is nothing more than a money making PR agency for the state.

One of the cornerstones of American propaganda is to enstill the fallacy within the public mind that our "presidents" are in charge, which you demonstrate in your closing paragraphs by refering to "his" (Bush's) "agenda;" he's a media persona-fountainhead for an ongoing, multi-tier agenda.

I would recommend reading up on your Chomsky, or at least watch the doc films, "Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and The Media," and "Orwell Rolls In His Grave."

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. One of the best posts I've read on DU. And there have been quite

a few. You're so right on every level. That's why Feingold's "Just Censure" isn't enough. Bush always knew that Democrats would be too weak to go all the way with retribution for his abuses. And if they just let him go with a slap on the wrist, what's the worst that will happen? He'll retire to Crawford and get out only to pick up cushy speaking fees from right-wing organizations.

Did it ever occur to anyone that Bush NEVER in his five years of presidency ever mingled with non-Republicans and that's how he wants it when he retires? He kept us away with First Amendment Zones, and now if you let him exit via the Oliver North door, he'll live without ever feeling the pain that he inflicted on us. That's why you need to impeach and give him a Scarlet Letter. One that will make him a pariah, even among his own.

[riona]

80. a MUST read if you haven't already

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

[Ufomammut]

82. Yes! Thanks for posting that!

I was just commenting on the same "apocalyptic" theme in the "national soul" thread.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. I read it and thought to myself, Charles Manson was thinking small.

[sheelz]

90. Thanks!

Read and book marked. :hi:

[riona]

94. it's an eye opener

and, omg, i've talked to people who support this rapture thing and think that what's going on is going to kick start it. and, would you believe, someone said to me "i haven't picked out a casket yet. maybe i'll get raptured up before i'll have to." beam me up, this is just too much.

[zippy890]

85. does it really matter?

what adjective is used to describe the bush presidency.

incompetent and/or evil,

the result is the same, disaster and chaos for Iraqis,
dangerous and harmful weakening of our domestic federal agencies.

the point is more americans are getting disgusted, and seeing
'The man behind the curtain' of our government as unsuitable
as president.

just wait until democrats get subpoena power - the people will speak at last.

[Ufomammut]

88. YES! *Intentions* DO Matter!

[Minnesota Libra]

86. I totally agree!! I hate those creatures, they are NOT incompetent.....

......they are doing every last thing on purpose.:grr: :nuke:

[sellitman]

89. His voting machines are "competent".

That's all he needs. His handlers take it from there.

That still doesn't make him competent.

[spanone]

91. When I hear 'he's not a bad guy' I cut them off right there.

You are right, no one this 'incompetent' and so successful. He's sneaky, coniving, dishonest, crooked, dangerous, non-christian and on and on and on but he ain't incompetent.

[Toots]

95. Famous words from Bill Clinton "Underestimate Bush* at your own Peril"

:shrug: Clinton is anything but stupid.

[yourout]

97. IOP.....Incompetent On Purpose.

They know damn well what they are doing.

[Solly Mack]

98. I don't buy it

If you're judging Bush by how President "should" operate, then yeah, he's incompetent - BUT- and this is the important part - if you judge Bush by what he set out to do while President, he's very.very. competent.

[spooky3]

102. They're evil AND incompetent

If they were competent, his approval ratings would be sky high. They would have found ways to accomplish objectives and still have the support of the public so they could continue their regime. The only people who support them are some white males, some of the very wealthy, and most of the fundies.

They've also been defeated on quite a few big issues, such as Social Security, despite controlling all three branches.

There is also a time lag factor. The negative consequences of all of their policies haven't fully been realized yet at the micro level. But they will be.

[Singular73]

103. Oh please

Incompetence doesn't win elections.

This isn't part of some grand plan.

This isn't Rove rubbing his hands in Glee.

They are in serious trouble.

Work with that.

[baby_mouse]

141. Isn't it weird?

I feel like shouting: "We're winning! GET OVER IT!"

[sheelz]

151. What are we winning?

[baby_mouse]

157. Shrug. NT.

[Hippo_Tron]

122. Couldn't a competent administration have kept cameras out of Abu Ghreib?

I think it's the arrogance of these people that leads to incompetence.

[Kailassa]

125. A great many people were murdered

in New Orleans and surrounding suburbs by this administration.

But my repug friends brush it off as mere incompetance.
They like having an idiot in the White House.
They sympathize with him, it creates a bond.
And they love believing they are smarter that their beloved president.

I find it very frustrating to see the American debate being,
"is * good or is he incompetant?",
with the fact that he is sly, evil, and achieving everything he wants not being seen.

As for popularity, who needs it when their buddies own the voting system?
If * and his buddies think they can't rig an election thoroughly,
they'll simply manufacture an excuse to not have one.

And convince half of America they should be grateful.

[jus_the_facts]

127. HE isn't the REAL problem....the PENTAGON is.....

...he's their puppet and will be replaced by another...the PENTAGON has been THE problem since WWII. :think:

[HughBeaumont]

135. The Pentagon AND Multi-National Corporations.

On each side of the two-Caste coin, IMHO.

[jus_the_facts]

149. Indeed they are one and the same.....

....post WWII they started retiring their HIGH ex-military officers to CEO posts in all major corporations...and we know how much they've all been merging to where only a select FEW now control most everything. :evilfrown:

[sheelz]

128. Buy your bumper sticker here:

http://www.cafepress.com/irregulargoods.6886676

[Nikki Stone 1]

129. I still believe Scott Ritter: "They are not Americans"

And they're not

Incompetence is a cover for the fact that they do not serve the American people.

[Emit]

131. Then we best get the Democrats off that word.

Seems to keep showing up as this Bush bot has discovered:

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?topic_view=threads&p=362563&t=50997

[Solomon]

138. Damn Emit. Outstanding job. I had no idea about this article when I

posted this thread. I just sensed that the propaganda was heading toward "incompetence" and that article gives facts behind the vibes I was getting.

[Emit]

144. There's irony in his post, though

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, this guy who is writing this is a fanatical Bush supporter -- a BIG Fox News fan--, and I don't even think he understands the irony of his posts, particularly in light of the argument you make in your own OP. Weird, huh? In some ways, he's really doing our homework for us, no?

Here's his update:

Like I said, the liberal sites are slow. Here is one of the more Soros’ favorite far left site devoting a whole article on the subject.

'Incompetence' is New Label Used by White House Critics

The war in Iraq, budget deficits, the damaged case against Zacarias Moussaoui, port security -- all the bad news that is sapping American morale and undercutting President George W. Bush's popularity comes from one source, according to opposition Democrats: incompetence.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0320-02.htm

UPI is now carrying Feinstein comments with the headline of "Feinstein cites Bush Iraq 'incompetence'"

Once again the slow liberal blogs... here's one from the Guardian:

A former US army general yesterday called for Donald Rumsfeld to resign on grounds of incompetence in Iraq, hours after Ayad Allawi, the former US-backed Iraqi prime minister, declared the country to be in the thick of a civil war that could soon "reach the point of no return".

Democrats Radio (WKYT) using the AP story of Feinstein's message claiming, "dangerous incompetence."

SFGate publishing another "incompetence" story, however this time a totally non-syndicated talking point:

a) On Capitol Hill, Sen. Joe Biden, the lead Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, blamed "the dangerous incompetence of this administration" for an "increasingly dismal" outcome, thus far, in Iraq.

b) Rep. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, who is running for a Senate seat against GOP incumbent Mike DeWine, suggested that voters will hold Republicans accountable for "incompetent" policy on war and economic issues in the November election.

Finally some mainstream! As I said the mainstream press is usually very late... this is NEWSWEEK, however this will not go to print until March 27:

My criticisms grew over the first 18 months of the invasion, a period that offered a truly depressing display of American weakness and incompetence. - Fareed Zakaria

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11903653/site/newsweek/

CBS has a new story carrying the Biden charge of incompetence.

Folks understand that this is just getting started. Although this was set to coincide with the 3rd anniversary of the Iraq war, understand that this will carry Democrats onto the presidential election. While Soros is probably the driving force and set the agenda, pay close attention to Hillary. I expect her to pick up on the talking point although, Soros tends to be in her way a bit. Until we know who he's going to endorse we won't know how much he will hinder Hillary and my guess is that she doesn't know either.

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?topic_view=threads&p=362776&t=50997

[sheelz]

150. Did you notice this too?

How would you describe the Bush White House?

A) Highly incompetent
B) Frequently incompetent
C) Somewhat incompetent
D) No answer

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?topic_view=threads&p=362103&t=50997&sid=83c83c49e5705f4ca29220360b1b48e2

This will be used against us.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

140. Hmmmm Incompetence

911 happened - massive incompetence

Run up to Iraq War - massive incompetence

Response to Katrina - massive incompetence

Any one starting to see a pattern here?

And amazingly, everything they fuck up through their "incompetence" seems to benefit them immensely.

I think that if you are rewarded for every incompetent thing you do , it might make you tend to be more incompetent.

But I don't think it's incompetent.

Bush is not President because he wants to do a good job for America and defend our Constitution, he is there to destroy us and bring us into the New World Order.

He's doing a SMASHING job. Incompetence my ass cheek.

[KAT119]

143. K&R!

[Orsino]

153. What, he can't be incompetent AND evil? n/t

[DawgHouse]

154. K&R!