What do you think about people who say "Grace" conspicuously

[rzemanfl]

in restaurants? I don't eat in their Church, shouldn't I get the same courtesy?

[acmavm]

1. I don't mind. It's rarely happened but it sure wasn't any skin off my

nose. They have as much right to say grace as I do not to say grace before my meals.

[cantstandbush]

48. I find absolutely no fault with that. None, nada. n/t

[Journeyman]

134. More of us would do better if we took Jefferson's words to heart . . .

about the religious beliefs or disbeliefs of his neighbors: "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Let your neighbor's salvation be his bailiwick. Most of us, I'm sure, have enough to do cultivating our own few cubic feet of flesh.

[xultar]

2. I tell them it is easier to say it in the car on the way over. Then they

can just get right down to eating.

[ronnykmarshall]

152. But what if they are EATING in the car?

Wouldn't that cause problems for those sitting in the car hop spot next to them?

Praise the lord and pass the fries !!! HONK! HONK! Yeeeehhhhhh GOD!

[xultar]

176. Say it while you're in the drive through..I say mine @ the grocery.

[ronnykmarshall]

228. I pray at the grovery too.

When ever I see some plasic looking Beverly Hills housewife I pray ..... Dear God, please don't let her get another lift. She's almost has a beard! Amen!

[xultar]

DAYUM...you're a trip.

:spray:

[jus_the_facts]

3. Even worse when they leave little pamphlets instead of tips....

:grr:

[Ilsa]

101. eeeeeeyyyyeeeewwww. What cheapskates.

I hope the waitstaff pisses in his pepsi next time.

[Ilsa]

110. oops. wrong place. nt

[blondeatlast]

133. That Matthew was a subversive. He's apparently been cleansed

out of their Bibles.

[jus_the_facts]

132. I sat by a woman I worked with at a good-bye luncheon....

....and instead of leaving a tip like everyone else she left one o'those pamphlets instead...it pissed me off...can't imagine how the poor girl felt after waitin' on us 12 people for a couple hours.

It was one similar to this... :eyes:

[Ilsa]

255. Don't they understand that the waitstaff needs tip money to survive?

They can always leave the pamphlet with the tip, but they will get alot more attention if they leave a good tip with their propaganda.

[jus_the_facts]

263. I doubt it...she'd worked at State Farm Insurance for years.....

...and was about to retire with FULL benefits...seems to me the propaganda must be something she has to grapple with herself after screwin' so many people for so many years. :shrug:

[TheBaldyMan]

292. The Wages Of Sin Are Death and you still have to live of your tips

what a skinflint

[progmom]

4. wait...are they saying it loud enough for you to hear them?

or just bowing their heads and praying quietly?

[rzemanfl]

7. Loud enough to hear every word from two tables away. n/t

[Sparkman]

23. Loud mouth cell phoners are infinitely more numerous, not just eateries!

Why don't they bother you?

[Beaverhausen]

29. and let's not mention loud children in restaurants!

:hide:

[ronnykmarshall]

and feral cats and song birds!!

Who the hell lets them in resturants???

[rzemanfl]

33. Who said they didn't? n/t

[Minnesota Libra]

28. Instantly start talking louder if you don't want to hear it, don't .......

.....worry about the manners, they aren't showing manners by forcing you to listen to them.

Or.....

You could always quote, "On Judgment Day many will say Lord Lord and I will tell the Father in Heaven I never knew them." Of course say it loud enough for them to hear AFTER they have finished praying so there is no question that they hear every word.

[rzemanfl]

93. Ms. Manners says not to talk with your mouth full. n/t

[Minnesota Libra]

123. I wasn't advocating talking with one's mouth full, if...........

.....a person waites until the other's have finished their extra loud prayers one will have plenty of time to chew and swallow any remaining food.:think:

[ronnykmarshall]

159. OK ... NOW I see what you mean.

That's when you blurt out .... "O' Mighty Satan ..... we thank you for the human sacrfice later .... but now Ol' Red Butt ... we're fucking HUNGRY!".

[rzemanfl]

169. I will have to write this one down. Thanks. Best advice on the

thread so far...

[TahitiNut]

191. Maybe their God is hard of hearing?

:rofl:

[pscot]

5. Same thing I think of Knights who say Neap

N/T

[Squatch]

15. "Nee"

[mzteris]

21. Isn't that

Ni?

I LOVE that part!

:rofl:

[Squatch]

26. Only if it's prounounced like "phi"

:rofl:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. Hey, that would be a great way to handle it! "thank you, lord . . ." NEE!

[pdefalla]

49. Nee?

I think it is "Neek".....

[mzteris]

182. nope

Ni!

And for those who want their very own "Knight who says NI"






http://www.dailyllama.com/news/2003/llama183.html

[sabbat hunter]

6. they have every right

they arent forcing you to participate, they are simply exercising their freedom of speech and religion.

[FormerDittoHead]

299. Right - no more obnoxious than the "loud talkers"...

On more than one occassion, I've "dined with" one of these fellows (sorry ladies for no equal time, it's always a guy) whose voice just CARRIES.

Sometimes I think that they must be hard of hearing or they must honestly have a problem modulating their voice.

I mean, I want to get up and ask them, "Do you know I can hear EVERY WORD YOU'RE SAYING CLEAR ACROSS THE ROOM? EVERY SINGLE WORD?"

I've been tempted at making conversation about exactly what they're talking about, hoping they will hear that I'm talking about, hoping they will then ask me if I'm "listening in" to their conversation...

My brother tells me of a flight he took where TWO such fellows sat right behind he and his wife. He said that he didn't get to talk to my sister in law for the whole flight...

[MADem]

8. Well, anyone who is conspicuous about their praying is seeking attention

It's not about their 'faith', it is about THEM, wanting to be perceived as pious.

[JuniperLea]

63. You nailed it

There is a time, place and season for all things.

I don't think the OP was offended by the prayer as much as the decibel level. On a message board, we call such people "attention whores"...

[MADem]

68. You'd have to wonder how they'd react if the people two tables away from

them started telling snarky religious jokes at full volume???

[JuniperLea]

76. Exactly

Our rights are our rights only if they don't impinge on the rights of others.

If I belonged to a religion that ate babies on Easter, how long do you suppose that would last? And what if I interpreted some verses in the King James Version that supported my eating of babies?

To each his own I always say. And live and let live. But it goes both ways. I won't fornicate in their front yard and I don't want to hear someone two tables away praying loudly.

[rinsd]

85. I'll bite

"Our rights are our rights only if they don't impinge on the rights of others."

How is someone saying grace impinge on your rights? What right would that be?

[JuniperLea]

107. People have the right to practice their religion

And I have the right not to have to hear it. I didn't walk into their church and say I didn't want to hear prayer. I was in a restaurant where I paid good money to eat my meal in peace.

I have a friend who is Jewish and she is horribly offended by anything Christian in a public place. She comes unglued if she hears a Christian rock tune on the radio. She is a Cantor and she takes her religion very seriously. I go out of my way to make her comfortable and she does the same for me... I don't want to hear her prayers either.

[ronnykmarshall]

173. DA-YUM

Homegirl needs to chill.

[rzemanfl]

175. Your first sentence says it all and was the point of my post.

Thanks.

[last1standing]

213. I don't think you do have that right.

I believe you have the right not to practice or sponsor a religion, but not the right to be exempted from hearing prayers in a public (nongovernmental) forum. If such were the case just about any form of speech or protest could be halted merely upon grounds that it is the right of another not to hear what one has to say.

While these fundies are annoying and inconsiderate of others, they are well within their rights. It is also within your rights to get up and leave an establishment that permits this kind of thing letting the proprietors know why they have lost your business. Myself, I always make sure to say something they will find just as annoying as I find their attempts at forced conversion. I then smile and order a drink. Seems to work every time. :)

[JuniperLea]

241. I never said there should be a law against that...

All I'm saying is there already a law against that... God's law. I'm merely trying to explain that although this person may think they are setting an example of Christianity, they are going against Jesus' teaching by doing this.

I'm more apt to leave... or to quote that scripture noted here.

[last1standing]

280. It's neither my business nor yours to interpret the Bible for them.

When I tell people that I'm a progressive, they automatically think I'm anti-Christian, anti-troop, anti-responsibility, etc...... Just as most people think that all conservatives are anti-choice, anti-minority, anti-freedom of expression, etc.... It's become a game to so many people, one that separates us into our respective groups and lessens our respect for other ideas and opinions. Arguing that religious people don't have the right to say grace in restaurants is just one example of that.

When someone has an opinion, I listen to it, respectfully. When someone wants to pray, I'm pleased that we live in a society that allows that to occur whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindi, or any other religion. Do some people take advantage of this and try to push their beliefs on those of who would rather not be bothered? Of course. However, given the choice of suppression or freedom of expression, I will always go with freedom. To me, that is being a true progressive.

Sorry about taking so long to respond. I had to fix dinner.

[rinsd]

215. "And I have the right not to have to hear it."

You have no such right. You have the right as we all do to ignore things that from time to time annoy us.

[Flying Dream Blues]

295. Exactly. nt

[bklyncowgirl]

273. Jesus said that you should go alone into a closet in order to pray.

Meaning that people who pray in public are more concerned about convincing other people that they are pious than in truly communing with God.

I love Jesus--I just have alot of trouble with his fan club.

[Mad_Dem_X]

287. Perhaps - so just ignore them

What's the big deal? Just tune them out, I say.

[Lars39]

9. Ever been with a group of fundies that are "on fire"

and are seated in the middle of the restaurant? :blush:

[politicaholic]

99. OH, ME! I've been in that situation...

Empty IHOP, hung over, Sunday morn.

Suddenly halfway through my breakfast the early service of the local church starts piling in and they are all fired up. They must have had the semi annual "recruiting" sermon, because when they saw lonely 'ol me with my haggard "I drank straight whiskey til 4 am and then woke up with a gal I've never seen in my life" state, it took them until they ordered a pot of coffee to pounce.

After an irritating 20 minute conversation with a person that couldn't sell heroin in a rehab center I finally loudly told them, "Listen, it's not FATE that an Atheist was sitting here because if God had lead me here to be preached to by you, I thank God! I thank God for the path in which he chose. He got me completely fucked up and then laid by a beautiful stranger with big boobs to get me into this neighborhood. He definitely didn't pay my bill at the club last night. I guess I'm paying for his glorious graces now."

They told me I didn't have to be rude. Me. Sitting quietly and bothering no one was the "rude" one. I'll never get those people. Never.

[Lars39]

114. Ohh, that's one of those "fly on the wall moments!"

:D

[KarmaCorn]

126. Well, that was cute!

However, it works even better if you simply tell them that you don't talk religion with strangers in a restaurant. Just keep repeating that same line... Also quite useful in dealing with phone solicitors; I just tell them I don't buy things over the phone. What are they gonna say--'yes, you do, too'?

[ronnykmarshall]

185. Uh, maybe they should mind their own fucking business.

If was out all night a'drankin and a'screwin and felt a little like a freight train ran over my ass the next morning and a group of assholes starting in on ME .... I'd not only tell their off ... but I might throw up to add a more effective visual to get the point across.

[knitter4democracy]

199. :-D

I'd like to see that, just to see their faces. :D

I'd love to see those fundies have to actually talk with someone on a real level and see life as it actually is.

[ronnykmarshall]

233. I'm bad enough at the cafe at work.

I go in for a cup o' joe and these people are standing around yak! yak! yak! ..... momma needs her coffee and they are in MY WAY!!!

It's not pretty.

[knitter4democracy]

305. They should know better.

Never get between anyone and their coffee. :)

[Jacobin]

10. Here's what the bible says about it:

But uthou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Matthew (ch. VI, v. 6)

[SPKrazy]

20. Somehow that doesn't address praying before a meal

now does it?

[JuniperLea]

47. I was always taught that there is a time and place for everything

Prayer is between you and your God. A respectful, silent prayer with head bowed is sufficient. Otherwise, the praying person looks pious and that is just wrong.

[SPKrazy]

105. That's Surely A Matter Of Interpretation Of What Prayer Is

Some Churches are very reserved in prayer

while others shout and sing and celebrate.

Can you say that either is "wrong"?

Hell most of the people that attack prayer on this board don't even seem to believe in it anyhow.

I don't know if you fit that or not, but surely, there is room to allow someone who wants to pray over their food to pray!

Now if they were shouting and saying "alleluia", loudly, or something, I'd probably wonder about them, but I don't think I'd be offended.

Someone who is offended by prayer, has something else they are struggling with than the prayer.

JMO

[JuniperLea]

However a person wants to pray in their own church is perfectly fine

As a former devout Fundamentalist Christian, who did her share of whooping it up during church services, I can truly say I've seen it all. I was raised Methodist in my early years and Assembly of God between the ages of 12 and 17, and I doubt you could find a wider gap in Christian ideology. And I can say without doubt that both of those Christian sects teach that you should not put on airs and pray loudly so others can hear you. It is private between you and your Lord and anything else is pious, self-righteous and blasphemous.

[SPKrazy]

129. As I Understand Prayer

It should be something someone does constantly, sometimes silently, but sometimes shared with your family or friends at dinner. So are you saying that only those who choose not to pray when they eat at restaurants should be allowed to pray?

I'm going to pray that this thread gets locked soon. (Well not really, as I don't believe in praying for something so specific and of no consequence to anyone really, but it sounded pseudo-funny in my head, others may judge differently)

[Minnesota Libra]

56. Check out post #28 for an idea on how to handle it. nt

[MADem]

87. Alternatively, one could always pray (in similarly loud fashion) to that

Flying Spaghetti Monster that is growing in popularity!!

[Minnesota Libra]

95. I was trying to keep it on a supject fundies would understand....nt

[rzemanfl]

239. But, what if they thought you were ordering? n/t

[MADem]

306. Ya gotta hope the pasta is good in that joint, then!!! n/t

[JuniperLea]

41. Thanks!

I was just searching for that verse!

[cynatnite]

11. I don't care as long as it doesn't interrupt my meal n/t

[acmejack]

12. Freedom of religion!

Exercise of their constitutional rights. I might on a personal level find it a little annoying but I have to agree with the founders.

[JuniperLea]

50. Cool

I'm studying to be a Rastafarian... I guess I can light a splif after a dinner out then:)

[SPKrazy]

111. I Would Think That If You Can Get Away With It

and can afford the legal bills if you get arrested to defend your religion's use of pot.

then you should go for it.

otherwise, put the strawman up, and let it alone

[acmejack]

200. Get a table upwind please!

Ahhh, I love smell of after dinner prayers...

[Mad_Dem_X]

288. Bingo! It's an annoyance

Nothing more, unless they're getting *really* loud and obnoxious.

[Squatch]

13. I say more power to them

to be able to openly practice their faith in public.

[SPKrazy]

14. So Why Does It Bother You?

They are in a public place and if they want to pray before they eat, what the hell problem do you have with it?

seriously, why does it bother you?

[JuniperLea]

53. It bothers me because that isn't how Christ taught us to pray

And piety is frowned upon.

[Squatch]

57. Maybe in their faith, they have a different take on how

Christ taught them to pray.

[JuniperLea]

69. That may be so...

I still think God frowns on attention whores. Self-righteousness and piety is sorely frowned upon throughout the Bible. Hard to make another spin on those verses.

[SPKrazy]

98. Look, All We Have Is The OP's Opinion That It Was "conspicuous"

prayer

to him/her, any prayer may be conspicuous.

I'd still like to know why it bothers the OP so much that someone would, God forbid, pray before they ate.

[JuniperLea]

113. The OP specifically said it was loud...

And every word could clearly be heard two tables away. Not much is left to the imagination.

The OP said nothing that would lead a person to believe it was prayer itself that was bothersome. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the person in question had simply bowed their head and said a quiet prayer.

[SPKrazy]

122. "Two Tables Away"

Now how hard was he listening? I can listen and hear two tables away if I am quiet and listen for it.

That isn't evidence, that is simply his opinion, and your interpretation that he is correct.

Besides, if they were talking in a quiet restaurant, it wouldn't be hard to hear. If it was a noisy restaurant, then they would have had to be talking loudly.

I just don't get any "offense" by this.

God bless them! They took the time to pray.

I think I'll pray before dinner tonight too. I'm thankful to have food when there are so many in the world that don't have food.

[JuniperLea]

127. I pray daily

The way the Lord taught. And he taught not to be pious and blasphemous. To each his/her own.

[SPKrazy]

137. To Each His/Her Own Is Right

And what you view as pious, another views as respectful.

I admire someone who overcomes the stigma of praying at a restaurant at meal time.

I'm inspired enough, that I might just try it next time I eat out.

[JuniperLea]

151. Jesus said not to be pride filled

And not to pray loudly so others could hear you.

Go for it, if that's what you want to do. But that is the kind of action that the Bible teaches is prideful and self-righteous. It causes a person to be lukewarm and spewed from God's mouth.

But, hey, it's your eternity.

[SPKrazy]

178. Well, I'm Sure That I Won't Be Accused Of Praying "Pridefully"

praying with others is not prohibited by the bible.

Besides, I'm not a literalist anyhow.

Thankfully my upbringing wasn't as confusing as yours must have been, with the AOG and the Methodists being the role models. What a dichotomy of approach to worship. I've attended an AOG Church and it is so much different than a Methodist Church.

I was raised a Presbyterian, and a pretty lax one at that if you can imagine.

Now, I belong to an even more liberal Church.

I'm not dogmatic about prayer, and my opinion is that if a person is praying anywhere, they are probably better off than if they aren't praying at all.

Peace

[JuniperLea]

187. All I'm saying is that Jesus said not to pray loudly in public

Because it makes you look holier-than-thou... bottom line.

[SPKrazy]

194. And You've Made Your Point

However, I am not convinced that he was talking about people praying at dinner in a restaurant.

[JuniperLea]

230. He mentioned public places

n/t

[SPKrazy]

272. He Was Speaking of Piety

not of people praying at dinner

Judge not, lest ye be judged

[jbnow]

214. At a meal

if one is eating alone I'd expect them to pray silently. If they are saying grace for or with the group it would be said out loud. Doubt God would be frowning on that.

[JuniperLea]

236. I think public places is key int he scripture

Out loud is one thing...loud enough to be heard at your own table, but to be heard across the room, two tables away, that is a bit much. The scripture is quite clear.

[SPKrazy]

325. Across the room, Two Tables Away?

Across the room?

man, you must eat in restaurants that have a lot of space between tables, because across the room in my book would be 4 to 5 tables away, not 2

[Beaverhausen]

138. Didn't "The Lord" also teach not to judge others?

just wonderin'

[SPKrazy]

155. Please Tell Me Where I Am Judging Others

in this sub thread anyhow.

I probably have gotten carried away with judging others in regards down thread to saying those who are offended might need mental health care.

I'm a mental health care professional, so I get paid for using judgment. The down side to that is that I am judgmental. It is a fault that I have, and perhaps you are right that I'm not listening to the Lord's teaching on this issue.

So, thanks for your comments.

[Beaverhausen]

157. I wasn't responding to you

please see Post #127, the one I was responding to.

[SPKrazy]

170. I apologize, I misaligned the lines on the thread you were responding to

so, forget about it!

[Beaverhausen]

183. That's OK

I agree- there are some truly whacked responses in this thread!

[JuniperLea]

171. Yep... so knock it off will ya?

Heh.

[BeTheChange]

338. We have a large family that gathers around the table

some of them are likely to be almost two tables away when we all get together.

I cannot believe thatsome are so close minded that there is offense taken at someone praying before a meal. Screw that whole freedom of religion thing. It must have been super painful and life impacting to have to overhear someone's words. The freaking horror.

[rzemanfl]

117. It was loud, ostentatious and appeared to make the people she

was eating with uncomfortable. But that's just my opinion, and I still don't eat in their Church.

[SPKrazy]

184. "Loud Ostentatious and Appeared To Make The People She"

was eating with uncomfortable.

You are right, it is just your opinion.

And what does eating in their Church really have to do with anything?

I still don't understand your objection.

What is it really? You just don't like people praying? You don't like Church? You don't like Religion?

Bitching about praying in a restaurant has got to be a new one on me!

[BeTheChange]

339. Are you a restauranteur?

Cause if you arent that statement is so preposterous I dont even know where to begin. As if a restaurant somehow negates spirituality....

[rzemanfl]

55. Two things, first the conspicuousness of it, I have no problem with

seeing people saying grace in restaurants. Secondly, this appeared to be a group of three women having lunch together in a restaurant that caters to office workers. Two of the three appeared embarrassed a bit but kind of forced to participate-I doubt those three will be getting together for lunch again anytime soon.

[Beaverhausen]

71. Did you get a picture with your cell phone?

Could you be any more nosy? Why is it any concern of yours who will be lunching with whom in the future?

There are many things in this world worse than hearing people pray AT THEIR OWN TABLE at a restaurant.

[rzemanfl]

79. Don't have a cell phone, and I rely on the NSA to take pictures. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. LOL...

I rely on the NSA to take pictures.:rofl: :thumbsup: Good one.

[mondo joe]

80. I'm always annoyed by people who are loud and thoughtless

like that - whether it's loud cell phone conversations on the bus or loud praying.

[Sparkman]

16. we bow our heads...quietly thank God. If you don't like it...it's on.

[JuniperLea]

135. What happened to if you don't like it I'll turn the other cheek?

Had the person in question quietly prayed, there would be no thread here.

[Sparkman]

212. just being fair, i will pray to Jesus, & you get to critique my volume.

Only Jesus is perfect. I'm a sinner, and no promises to turn a cheek every time.

[eyesroll]

17. As long as they're not shouting it or requiring others to join, who cares?

If it's loud enough and prolonged enough to be a disturbance REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT (i.e. if they were saying, "Lord, please give Congress the strength to impeach Bush" or even "there's a sale on socks at Target" and it's still annoying), then it's a problem.

[Beaverhausen]

18. Doesn't bother me at all. n/t

[mzteris]

19. Loudly quote this verse:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."


And enter into a discussion with your dining mate about the Publican and the Pharisee...


Speaking of Pharisees - does this description remind you of anyone today??

"The Pharisees was a religious and political party that had its origin in the second century before Christ. During a time when it seemed as if the whole world was embracing Greek culture, the Jewish group known as the Hasidim arose to combat this influence and to preserve Jewish ways. Eventually, one branch of the Hasidim broke off and formed their own community. Others however, who remained a part of regular Jewish life, formed the group that later became known as the Pharisees ("separate ones"). They so esteemed the "letter" of the law of Moses (more so than the "spirit" of the law), and so esteemed the oral traditions that were said to have sprung from the law, that they developed strict applications of the law for everyday life. The most famous Pharisee in all the Bible - although few people realize that that's what he once had been - is the Apostle Paul (Phil. 3:5). "

Interesting that many fundamentalists embrace the teachings of Paul, eh?

[rinsd]

35. In other words act like an asshole in response to a minor annoyance

...yeah that's the "liberal" thing to do.

[mzteris]

156. He said they were "Praying" loud enough

to be heard two tables away. I hardly call that a "minor" annoyance.

Hey - all I'm saying is have a discussion of the Scriptures. Who can fault that? ;)

[ronnykmarshall]

208. and kill the snakes.

Snakes, sweetie. I hear there were snakes involved.

[mama]

302. Good quote

Probably would be better to print it out on business cards and gently slip it on their table.

[JuniperLea]

181. Thank you!

Interesting indeed. One of the many hypocrisies that keep me out of organized churches.

[0007]

22. The people that say, "why bless his soul" are the ones I always

been screwed by.

One can say "Grace" without being conspicuous. 'Tis the show that brings up the red flags here.

[etherealtruth]

25. Nothing ... eom

[knitter4democracy]

27. We say grace before every meal.

Even in restaurants. We try to only say it loudly enough to hear just amongst us, but sometimes we are louder than we realize because of the noise in the room.

We say grace merely to give thanks for the food--that we have good food to eat and fill our bodies and (hopefully) our souls. We don't say grace to lord our faith over anyone else or to make others feel bad or weird or anything.

I have seen some say grace really loudly in restaurants, and while I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt (maybe they just can't hear how loud they are), I wonder why they need to do that. Grace is between the person praying and God alone--it's not a spectator sport.

[ThomCat]

30. That's not a prayer. That's advertizing.

Because everyone needs to know that there are real christians in the room.
:eyes:

[ronnykmarshall]

222. Well when you got snakes too ..

well ya know.

[Extend a Hand]

31. It kind of depends on the 'grace'

if it's a really long grace I feel sorry for the kids because I know they're sitting there thinking, "HURRY UP I'm hungry". At least that's what my sister and I used to think

[Warpy]

32. That doesn't bother me, not really. I just think they're

a bunch of sanctimonious assholes, and I'm probably right about that.

However, if they insist on smoking cigars....

[Touchdown]

34. That's never happened to me.

I've seen people quietly bow their heads before eating, but never so loud as to be able to hear them. I guess anything can happen.:shrug:

[JuniperLea]

36. If they profess to be Christians...

Then they are just plain wrong. Jesus taught to pray to oneself and not to make a boast of it, otherwise you are being blasphemous and your prayers will be ignored.

A simple, silent prayer with head bowed should suffice.

[HeeBGBz]

37. I work in a restaurant

I hate it when I'm bringing an item/drink refill etc to a table and they're praying. I don't know whether to stand around til they finish, put the item on the table or what. Don't mind if it's short, but I hate when they make a novel out of it and I have to either wait around or come back later.

[Sparkman]

46. EVER have the GUTs to tell the prayers off? Or just gossip about it onlin

[HeeBGBz]

75. Why would I want to tell them off?

What the fuck are you talking about gossip. Gossip would be telling someone the details of what they said, smart ass. I was just adding a waitress viewpoint to the discussion and quandry of what to do.

[Sparkman]

150. "hate it when they make a novel ...have to wait around or come back" sorry

my mistake. you used the word "hate" twice, about praying folk. Sounded like you hated it, and endured it more than once if it went on too long. So did you ever tell them of their offenses?

[HeeBGBz]

238. I hate everything about my job

Yes, I endure praying folk. Yes, it puts me in a bit of an awkward position. I also endure rude people, no-tipping people, people who do not respond when you greet them. I also hate it when people can't just order normal shit without changing every aspect of the items ordered. People who's kids trash a 10 foot radius and they leave a dollar or nothing at all. People who think because you are a waitress that they are so much better than you (nevermind that I'm a published author, as well) If it quacks like a waitress, then by god that's all she is.

They have every right to pray if they want to. All I was saying was I never know what to do when they're praying because I never know how long its going to last. You know, waitress/prayer etiquette. If I hated the people, I'd slam the shit down and enjoy it when they jumped out of their skin in mid-prayer.

[Sparkman]

311. thanks for the explanation, and a curse on the non-tippers of means.

[HeeBGBz]

320. I have distributed some rather creative curses

Right now I'm training a Romanian (I almost wrote Romulan) and 3 Thai summer student workers to wait tables in Branson, MO. In another month we'll get our Poland people back. I feel very protective of these young people. I try to be watchful of xenophobes. At least these people work. I get so sick of slackers.

Peace

[Sparkman]

38. NOISE pollution (jets, helicopters, trucks, Sunday commercial gardeners)..

are MUCH more ubiquitous, AND louder. Got anything to complain about other than prayers?

[rzemanfl]

136. Lots, starting with that George Dumbass * thinks he's President.

[jbnow]

250. Doesn't bother me that bush

thinks he is president. Bothers me that he gets to be president.

I wish he were in some room hallucinating it and that the rest of us didn't have to be bothered with it.

[rzemanfl]

261. Bad choice of words on my part, almost as bad as my

judgment when I started this thread. I'm still hoping that this is all a bad dream and I will wake up.

[jbnow]

278. If you mean

bush as president I keep hoping it's a dream too and that the country will wake up.

If you mean this thread, well it will pass...and it's not killing anyone like the bush nightmare is. It's OK.

[incapsulated]

39. What do you think of people who discuss politics in restaurants?

People who disagree with them might have to hear it! If you want your right to free speech, that has to include speech you don't like.

I don't like people being loud at restaurant tables, period. I don't give a flip what the "content" of the loud speech is. If they were too loud, then I would complain, but I would guess that their saying grace didn't last too long.

[Sparkman]

65. I have no problem with a loud outburst, having fun & enjoying living...

If a PARTY or GROUP are boisterous, young folks after a game or after church, I'm just mad 'cause they didn't invite me in on the celebration. Live & let live, and grab life when you can!

[incapsulated]

91. It all depends on the venue

We all know there are "loud" restaurants and those that are pretty quiet, and when there is a table of loud idiots screaming like they are in a bar while the rest of the place are having normal conversations, I want to smack the shit out of them. Same for having screaming kids running around in a "not really a family place" restaurant. I'm pretty tolerant but I don't like rude, self-absorbed people who don't give a shit if they ruin your evening out because they want to scream and carry on like they are in their own fucking living room. Take it to an appropriate place, like a bar or something, if you just want be loud with your friends.

[Sparkman]

179. no argument

[sueh]

78. Well said. Goes for me, too n/t

[mark11727]

112. Worst brawl I ever saw (the police were called) in a restaurant...

...a fair sized, VERY LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS family pretty much taking over the center of a pretty fancy (by my humble standards) restaurant --- telling a lot of LOUD ETHNIC JOKES.

My future wife and I were seated at the window, and kept rolling our eyes at each other ("can you BELIEVE that crowd..?")

Eventually a young well-to-do couple (she wore fur) came in, and the LOUD OBNOXIOUS FAMILY started making Polish jokes. Did I mention they were loud and obnoxious? Anyway, the young well-to-do wife-in-fur is (you guessed it) POLISH! So her husband goes to the table, and asks if they could cool it the Polish jokes, and so "Da" and Uncle Whatsis-name tell the young well-to-do husband to go f*ck himself...

It gets much worse from there.

Did I mention that the police were called?

So next thing you know there's this BALL OF FLAILING BODIES heading straight for the future missus and me, and we're SMOOSHED UP AGAINST THE WINDOW because the waiters and busboys couldn't break things up fast enough, and the young well-to-do couple left without eating, and the police wanted to have a word with "Da" and Uncle Whatsis-name, and MISSUS "DA" starts bitching BECAUSE "DA"'S STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF EATING HIS DINNER G*DDAMMIT she says!

We don't eat there any more.

Hey, I'll take a little grace over this nonsense anytime.

[incapsulated]

143. lol, at least you got a good story to tell!

:)

I had an experience with a loud shithead yelling polish jokes, too, at a very expensive restaurant in NY. Fortunately, we were leaving, or things could've gotten ugly.

[riona]

289. i agree

personally, i'd rather not be able to clearly hear conversations around my table.

[Taverner]

40. Eh. I can think of bigger fish to fry

What bugs me more is when they try to convert me. That shit just ain't cool.

But public prayer? Sure, why not?

[rzemanfl]

162. What gets me is that a post like this gets 55 responses, I've

found that two things generate a lot of responses at DU, nostalgia and any slight criticism of religion.

[ronnykmarshall]

195. Ironic you say that ..

because they were PRAYING over a frying fish.

[NanceGreggs]

42. 'Conspicuously' is the operative word here.

Freedom of religion does not include being conspicuous about it. As another poster here said, that makes it about THEM and not about GOD.

I'm always baffled by people who claim to have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus, who then feel the need to display it in PUBLIC at every opportunity.

I wonder how this Grace-saying family would have reacted to a Muslim family at the next table kneeling down to face Mecca, publicly saying their prayers in a restaurant.

I guarantee you they would not be amused.

[rinsd]

54. "Freedom of religion does not include being conspicuous about it"

I must have missed that clause in the Bill of Rights.

Is your argument then, that they aren't practicing their religion correctly?

"I wonder how this Grace-saying family would have reacted to a Muslim family at the next table kneeling down to face Mecca, publicly saying their prayers in a restaurant. "

I wonder how the OP would have reacted.

[NanceGreggs]

106. The Bill of Rights guarantees freedom to choose one's reilgion ..

... according to one's conscience, and to be free to practice it. It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places. {You'll note that the original poster commented that this family could be heard two tables away).

There is nothing wrong with saying Grace, nor any before-meal prayer, in a restaurant. But when you feel the need to be loud and make a show of it, sorry, but that, IMHO, is inappropriate.

I live across the street from a Catholic Church. Every Ash Wednesday, they do the 'Stations of the Cross' in a parade around several blocks, stopping at various points to observe each 'station' separately.

The police block street traffic for about two hours to allow the service to be performed unimpeded - and although it is an inconvenience to those who can't reach their driveways for a few hours, no one has ever complained. In fact, the followers sing, pray aloud, and carry lighted candles, and it is a beautiful sight.

I have no problem with that, and neither do my neighbours.

However, if this same observance were performed in a public restaurant around the corner, I think we'd all have a very different opinion as to the appropriateness of that.

It's not just about praticing your religion freely - it's about taking others into consideration, whose religious beliefs may be different from your own.

If you're a Christian, the Bible CLEARLY admonishes one to 'pray away from others'. There haven't been any 'amendments' to Scripture, last time I checked.

[DetroitProle]

131. uh restaurants aren't public

Just so you know. Unless you currently live in the Soviet Union.

Or unless you eat in the break room at the police station.

[NanceGreggs]

220. I agree with you wholeheartedly ...

... restaurants aren't public place. As far as I'm concerned, they are privately owned businesses and, as such, should be allowed to operate as the owner thereof deems fit.

However, when the local restaurant owners here wanted to allow smoking in their establishments, they were told they couldn't because they were deemed 'public places'.

As a smoker, I would be THRILLED to have that legal clarification made, once and for all.

[DetroitProle]

243. good call.

I have friends over to smoke and coffee all the time. I smoke like a chimney in my house. I wonder when the government decides when its going to regulate me.

[NanceGreggs]

254. Welcome to DU, DetroitProle!

Yeah, I live in Toronto (where the no-smoking laws get more ridiculous by the day). My friends and I started doing dinners-at-home at each other's houses when all of this started, and we immediately realized it was cheaper, and more fun - you can 'stay' at the table as long as you want, listen to the music of your choice, play board games or cards afterwards with no one waiting for your space.

I do feel sorry for the business owners, though. We've had SO MANY bars and restuarants go under in the past two years. I have friends who own bars, and friends who are wait-staff, and they are REALLY hurting financially.

If the law were clarified to declare, once and for all, that bars and restaurants are privately-owned establishments, with the right to choose how they operate, there would be 'smoking' and 'non-smoking' places, and everyone would be content. That was actually the by-law here for three years, and it worked out beautifully for everyone. The public was truly pleased with having the choice, and no one lost business.

But, no, like all politicians, they couldn't leave well enough alone ...

[JuniperLea]

242. How are they not public?

Are they private clubs? They may be private businesses, but they are public places.

[DetroitProle]

249. they're private property.

The government doesn't own them. It may regulate them, but it isn't public property.

[JuniperLea]

257. It's still a public place in this context.

Ownership is only so much hair splitting, imho.

[donheld]

283. So if I get nekked in the restaurant

They can't ticket me for public indecency? :shrug: no shirt, no shoes, no service. No pants no problem? :shrug:

[rinsd]

140. I would read the Constitution again

" It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places"

Really? Case law says otherwise.

"It's not just about praticing your religion freely - it's about taking others into consideration, whose religious beliefs may be different from your own."

I agree with that as a personal philosophy. But grace from all 2 tables (that could be less than 10 feet) is nothing more than an annoyance to those who choose to be annoyed.

"If you're a Christian, the Bible CLEARLY admonishes one to 'pray away from others'. There haven't been any 'amendments' to Scripture, last time I checked."

Quick name every bit of scripture dealing with prayer then explain how there are no contradictions in said scripture.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=709437&mesg_id=709753

[NanceGreggs]

245. Excuse me, but you brought up the Bill of Rights - not me.

This thread started based on whether one felt it was inappropriate to have to listen to someone else saying Grace (and the author of the thread pointedly said, in a follow-up post, that these people were being loud about it) in a restaurant or not. Had the post been premised on 'the people at the next table quietly bowed their heads and prayed together', my opinion would be drastically different.

I expressed my opinion; I do not feel it appropriate to bring attention to one's self in this manner in a restaurant.

I only brought up the Biblical reference because THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS. Don't blame me - I didn't write the thing, nor do I believe in it as a basis for my religious beliefs. But others DO, and they should follow it accordingly. And my PERSONAL OPINION as to what is appopriate behaviour in a restaurant is just that, my personal opinion. It is not based on how 'quickly' I can name that tune, in terms of what the Bible says or doesn't say.

I also LOVE well-behaved, polite children, while I LOATHE ill-tempered brats. How many child psychology studies need I cite before I am allowed to express my PERSONAL OPINION in that regard?

As for: "It does not include bringing overt, loud, and disruptive observance of relgious rights and practices into public places"

Really? Case law says otherwise.

The obvious response would be: "Quick! Name ALL of the case law that upholds the proposition that LOUD AND DISRUPTIVE observance of religious rights and practices is, by LAW, totally permissiable in restaurants?

I seriously doubt there is an X -v- Y case out there where a court upheld that LOUD AND DISRUPTIVE religious observance in a restaurant is the law of the land.

But please don't bother to respond - because I am out of here. A thread that started as a "What's your OPINION on this" discussion has quickly dissolved into an interpretation of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Freedom of Religion, et al.

That wasn't the concept behind the original discussion, and if it had been, I wouldn't have bothered posting on it.

I was merely expressing my PERSONAL OPINION on a topic -- and the last time I checked the Bill of Rights, that was still permissable.

[rinsd]

315. "you brought up the Bill of Rights - not me."

You're the one that mis-stated what freedom of religion is.

"I only brought up the Biblical reference because THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS. Don't blame me - I didn't write the thing, nor do I believe in it as a basis for my religious beliefs. But others DO, and they should follow it accordingly. "

If you don't believe in it you can't tell them what to believe or what is correct to believe.

" last time I checked the Bill of Rights, that was still permissable."

You are of course correct, you only exposed yourself and made it obvious you are not worth talking to.

[mondo joe]

262. Funny - you seem to be confused about the first amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I don't see anything about restaurants ejecting loud people.

[rinsd]

314. "I don't see anything about restaurants ejecting loud people."

Do you know how long it takes to say grace? If a restaurant kicked people out for that, they would have a lawsuit on their hands. These people weren't screaming, they were all of two tables away which is not exactly across the restaurant.

[The Straight Story]

269. Two whole tables? That's it?

I was at a nice place tonight and could hear people 5 tables away. It's called talking or gabbing or yapping what have you.

Like I care. I am not out to eat for the peace and quiet, if so I will never find a place to eat. People laughing, on cells phones, etc and so on.

Of all the ills and evils in the world people are upset about a family praying??

[seabeyond]

43. free society, they are more than welcome to say grace next to me

further i would probably say amen. why would anyone be bothered. them saying grace has nothing to do with the path you chose in life. why are we becoming so terribly sensitive and demanding how fellowman must behave around us. makes us no better than the other side

[rinsd]

44. I wonder where people get the idea that "liberals" hate religion?

:shrug:

[truebrit71]

51. Probably the same place that people get the idea that bush is religious...

..I mean afterall, "Who would Jesus bomb?"

People that pray publicly and loudly need to read their bible a little more carefully...

[rinsd]

61. I love it....

People are actually giving out instructions on how to pray for a religion they don't even believe in.

Yeah the Bible says alot of things and if you think they should follow that verse to the letter there are plenty of others you would wish they would ignore.

[rzemanfl]

67. I dunno, I was hoping for a job confiscating Bibles in West

Virginia if Kerry won. Seriously, the idea that one cannot criticize any aspect of a person's religion is one of the things the right-wing fundies rely on.

[rinsd]

77. Not bad, I like a little wit....

"Seriously, the idea that one cannot criticize any aspect of a person's religion is one of the things the right-wing fundies rely on."

Should one's religion or lack there of be a criteria for judging that person's character?

[truebrit71]

83. It is if they judge you that way...

..

[rinsd]

97. Please elaborate...(nt)

[truebrit71]

103. If they have already judged you..

..by your objection to their behaviour, why is it wrong to apply judgement on them? It's a lose/lose proposition. The fundies get to brag and show off about how religious they are (contrary to the bible) and if you don't object you are judged to be in agreement with them, and if you object you are automatically judged to be anti-religious lefty.

With these types of folks, ANYONE that doesn't believe they same way they do, are automatically jugded to be anti-religious.

The God I know doesn't need to hear me thank Him every time I shove food down my pie-hole at Chili's...

[rinsd]

118. But you will have judged them for objecting your behavior?

which was you objecting their behavior because their behavior was an affront to your behavior...then that starts to get into chicken and egg territory.

Are there phony religious people? Of course. But to me having issues with the public saying of grace tells more about the offended than those praying.

[truebrit71]

120. ..and that's where we differ...

..the need to pray loudly, in public, tells more about the prayee than the offended...

[rzemanfl]

88. To go back a long way, I can remember my grandfather saying

"I'll vote for Kennedy even though he's Catholic, but I bet he'd never vote for me because I don't go to Church."

[rinsd]

104. No offense to your grandfather but that's nonsense and a little bigoted...

He was judging Kennedy on the fact that he was a Catholic and proposing actions based on what he thought a Catholic would act like.

[rzemanfl]

121. You have absolutely no idea how bigoted my grandfather was,

(very) but how many avowed atheists are there in Congress?

[truebrit71]

45. Nothing. I'd find out which church they belong to..

...and make sure to eat a Big Mac during their service...Turnabout is fair play after all... :evilgrin:

[Sparkman]

58. Have you NEVER had the experience? Or have you done the big mac thing?

[truebrit71]

81. I have never had the experience as an outsider...

..but I have been at a table as part of a group where someone has pulled the grace thing and i just sat there rolling my eyes..

[Sparkman]

128. tolerance and patience paid off, textbook.

[SmokingJacket]

52. Beats loud belching. nt

[rzemanfl]

59. I'll grant you that. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

198. and farting .... don't forget farting.

Loud ones! Big thunder clappers. Shakes the room. Stank? Of don't get me started.

[renate]

60. it's none of my business

And I absolutely could not care less.

I think it's called the right to free speech, or freedom of religion... something we used to have in the United States, anyway, although I can't remember the specifics....

[Kerrytravelers]

62. Wow. Never heard that one before.

If people want to pray before eating, I don't care. Even if I can hear them, so long as it isn't interrupting my enjoyment, I never cared. I personally don't say grace, but even when I'm at the table with people who do, I just sit quietly and meditate for a moment.

I personally think that prayer is private. If I choose to pray, no one around me knows it. I keep it to myself- private, where religion belongs, not in everyone's face. Now, when I'm with my fundie in-law freaks who think Catholics are burning in hell, I make the Sign of the Cross just to piss them off (I'm Catholic. It's one perk I can enjoy through all that guilt!

But to pray so loudly as to interrupt others. That isn't Godly or holy- that's just plain rude. Maybe just let it go. There are worse things to get pissed about- unless they try and "convert" you. Then talk loud to drown them out. Talk all about your lesbian affair and how you just looooove working for Planned Parenthood!


I'm such a little devil, aren't I?






Edited for embarrassing punctuation.

[One_of_8]

64. I find it rather annoying

because my first thought is that whoever is saying grace out loud in public wants to make a show of how pious they are. It's been my experience that shoe who are big on public form, often are short on the actual substance.

I grew up in a family that says grace before dinner. We still do when we are all together. But when we go out to eat a meal, we don't. If anyone in the group wants to say grace, they do so silently and without any fanfare.

Religion should be personal and private. I don't really feel like being made to intrude on someone's private moment.

[Ian David]

66. Matthew 6:5-6

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

More:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm

[Sparkman]

84. 1 Thes: 5;17 / 1 Timothy 2:8

1 Thes 5,17: Pray without ceasing.
1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

[Ian David]

124. There is no way "the" bible can contradict itself

:sarcasm:

[rinsd]

146. I think that's the whole point....

...you can't cite one scripture and call it the final word on prayer.

[Sparkman]

177. I find snipets of text from Physics Text that R seemingly contradictory.

AND that's not a fair argument, logically.

[Ian David]

281. So, develop a Quantum Theory of Christianity

Any "fact" in "the" bible has a probability of being inerrant / factual at any particular time.

Observing a biblical passage causes it to collapse to a quantum "factualness" state.

You can not know both the exact "factualness" of a biblical passage and the "importance" of it at the same time-- observing one changes the other.

Let's start with a "thought experiment" called "Schrodinger's Bible."

[TheBaldyMan]

297. could you post one please? I'd love to wind up some physicists

being a techie myself I can't resist making fun out of scientists, especially the po-faced ones who take themselves far too seriously.

[Sparkman]

309. Fine: Halliday & Resnick, "Physics" 1966 edition, lib#66-11527, p.3 par 5

"The same physical quantitiy may have different values if it is measured by observers who are moving with respect to each other. The velocity of a train has one value if measured by an observer on the ground, a different value if measured from a speeding car, and the value zero if measured by an observer sitting in the train itself. None of these values has any fundamental advantage over any other; each is equally "correct" from the point of view of the observer making the measurement." ("Physics" by Halliday & Resnick, page 3, para. 5)

Obviously, the assumption is erroneous, contradictory on several points.
1) On curves, the train , the riders would feel the acceleration and "zero" is not the "speed".
The riders would sink into the seat on curves & that is motion and speed.
2) "None of these values has any fundamental advantage over any other", the observers not on the train would know that the train was moving with substantial speed, and potential energy very high.
3) "Each is equally "correct"", reiterates that the trajectory is important to those of us in the real world, but from these authors(physicists) they value the myopic viewpoint of the rider equally with those who see the relative motion of the train, and see the tracks and know the path.

Sorry for the delay, and it's just 5 minute, random review of a text that I haven't read for months.
This passage last read by me in the 70's. Point is, SCIENCE is REPLEAT with non-science, and we try to make sense of the world as best we can.
BTW, Dr. Mitiokoco (spelling) reported a NEW PLANET in our solar system!! How & The name of God can that be!!?? We spent TRILLIONS of $$, and this year "discover" that a tenth planet exists.
The science community now believes in multiple parallel universes, string theory!! Is God possibly in a different realm, can that even be possible?? Not until this year, according to laws of science.
edit spelling & url: Dr. Mitio Kako: www.mkako.org

[TheBaldyMan]

310. thanks for the link - btw it's Michio Kako from CUNY

I don't think scientists believe in theories myself. I know quite a few that believe in God but science isn't an act of faith, it's more of a system with continuous feedback.

edited for typos

[Sparkman]

312. Honesty costs job advancement...science & theology are parallel universes.

[Sparkman]

172. So why use a scripture to make a secular point? Mocking Christians?

[The Straight Story]

70. Yell out "I am a democrat, please quit praying - oh and vote dem"

Should work like a charm...

[rzemanfl]

72. Your'e forgetting "and I cannot wait to confiscate your Bible!" n/t

[rzemanfl]

73. delete. dupe

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

74. I think, "Isn't that cute!"

Same way I feel watching young kids visit Santa.

[rzemanfl]

108. There's a difference, up until age 6 or so, visiting Santa appears

to produce tangible rewards.

[SPKrazy]

190. So Now Your True Colors Show Through

This is nothing but a bash the "ignorant" Christians for their beliefs and practices.

Comparing Christianity to Santa Claus is really what is offensive.

[rzemanfl]

But, but, ....the other guy started it. The point I was making was

the difference between faith and tangible personal property.

[Kailassa]

256. Yes it is.

Nobody claims that Santa was born of a virgin or rose from the dead.

[SPKrazy]

271. Tsk Tsk, Hitting All Kinds Of Nerves

my goodness

if he wasn't born of a virgin or risen from the dead, it would make no difference to me.

My spirituality is guided by the teachings of the Christ.

How's Santa?

[rzemanfl]

319. Santa has a Mom? HE DIED???? Damn, don't tell the kids. n/t

[New Government]

82. Tolerance

We don't ever need it for things people do in private.

[barbtries]

86. i think

any form of proselytization is disrespectful, and in public it is not asking too much for people to simply say their prayers quietly ...

[Crunchy Frog]

89. I was in a Pizza Hut recently, and watched a mother

hassle her toddler (maybe a year to a year-and-a-half old) to say grace. It kind of made me a little queasy, more just wondering about how the kid was being raised in general. On the other hand, my mother's Unitarian minister makes his puppy say grace before meals, and he seems to be a pretty nice guy.

I don't really care for ostentatious displays of religiosity, but to each his own, I guess.

[BlackHeart]

90. Are you offended if...

...you sneeze and someone says "Bless you!"?

[rzemanfl]

100. No, but if someone said "Bless You, now let's kneel and pray for

your health." That would.

[ronnykmarshall]

209. I normally tell them

"did that come out of you?"

[JuniperLea]

164. Haha!

Do you realize that is based on a Pagan belief?

[GoneOffShore]

207. I get creeped out by folks who constantly say

in response to "how are you?" "I'm blessed!"

Just me, but it seems like they're just waiting for the "Rapture" (or is that Raptor?).

[BlackHeart]

210. I say "Bless you" alot

don't tell anyone but I'm an atheist.

[stray cat]

92. so you have a religious attachment to restaurants others should honor?

If they don't care that you don't say grace at restaurants why should you care if they do? Progressive means rights for all otherwise we are know different than radical conservatives.

[The Wielding Truth]

94. It's a public restaurant.Right?Then they're allowed. It's called freedom.

[woo me with science]

336. I like pie. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

96. I Think God Bless Them.

I mean seriously, is this something to get angry about? Seriously? :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

115. No Shit!

I think that someone who is angered by this, has some real issues they need to deal with regarding religion.

I mean, we all have our baggage we carry around, but if it is interfering with a person's ability to function around someone praying before their dinner, then man,they should get help!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

125. 100% Absolutely Agree.

[in_cog_ni_to]

139. The key word here is " conspicuously" which is shoving their religion

down other's throats while they're trying to eat. So, would it be ok if Fred Phelps sat down next to you in a restaurant and started praying his hatred toward gays in a loud tone? Is it selective praying? Or is ALL loud and conspicuous praying OK? People who have to display their religion to everyone are the ones who need to get help. Something is wrong with them. Why the need to do that? If they want to pray, fine, but they should do it QUIETLY so the entire restaurant doesn't have to witness it. That's ridiculous.IMCPO.

[SPKrazy]

145. Now We Only Have The OP's Opinion That It Was "Conspicuous"

and no information about the context of the prayer.

If Fred Phelps sat down anywhere near me and started praying loudly about anything, I would be moving away, complaining to the management, and saying something about it.

Fred Phelps is an attention seeking whore.

Someone praying at dinner with their family/friends is nothing like the Fred Phelps scenario.

Put up the strawman BS.

Did the entire restaurant witness the prayer??

We don't have that information

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. Why would the OP make it up?

If he says he heard them from 2 tables away, I tend to believe him. Why make it up?:shrug:

[SPKrazy]

166. Two Tables Away Does Not Equal "the whole restaurant"

I'm not saying the OP made it up.

I am saying that without more information, I think the fact that this thread is even in existence may be evidence that the OP is overly sensitive to this behavior (praying in restaurants)

So, you and your Fred Phelps scenario can fade away into the sunset now.

There was no Fred Phelps, just some people praying at dinner in a restaurant, and they were heard from two tables away. Which doesn't impress me as being anything terrible or worth getting upset about at all.

[rzemanfl]

193. I made it up because I am part of the nefarious "confisicate the

Bibles of West Virginia" wing of the Democratic Party and it all part of the big plan. :sarcasm:

[ronnykmarshall]

201. and snakes.

There were snakes involved.

[rzemanfl]

223. Snakes!!! Shit, I knew there was something funny about that

sandwhich.

[rzemanfl]

149. You are sure reading a lot into my post that isn't there. Where did

I say I was angry or couldn't function? Religion never bothered me until the separation between Church and State started being broken down with this "faith-based" stuff, and "* is God's choice" and such started.

[erinlough]

161. I agree, and it's happening more often now.

I was raised in a religion where this behavior was considered by them to be rude and wrong, but now the thing is to shout it from the rooftops. I guess I don't get what it's supposed to do for the prayer or the crowd around them other than make them seem holy. Whatever.

[rzemanfl]

186. I agree with you, or at least I would if I were not so "angry" and

unable to "function."

[SPKrazy]

328. As You Stated, You Don't Eat In Their Church

you cared enough to start this thread.

It is somehow interfering with your ability to tend to your usual business, unless your usual business is to start threads about eating dinner and having someone at a table nearby praying and have it bother you enough to write about it!

Face it, it is interfering with your ability to function as you might normally do, right?

(all right, maybe that is over the top, but it did seem to anger you, can't you agree to that?)

[rzemanfl]

330. Here's what I, analyzing myself, think. I think that six years ago in

the same instance I would not have thought much about it. Since then, the right wing has so tied themselves to Christianity, that today instead of my mind saying "Christians saying Grace loudly" it said "Bush voters loudly acting pious while I'm trying to eat."

I'm functioning just fine, btw and I never expected this thread to grow to the size it did.

[SPKrazy]

326. It Was Important Enough For You To Start A Thread And To

make the statement, "I don't eat in their Churches"

so if that isn't anger, then what is it?

[erinlough]

141. You know I was at a wedding shower this past weekend.....

and the host stood and ask us all to bow our heads and pray for the marriage. I wasn't angry, but I don't believe and I couldn't make myself bow to appease. I was quiet, I was still, I did not say anything. I do think though that especially Christians have NO concept that anyone in a crowd may not be of their religion. I wonder if I had been of another religion, Muslim for instance, I would have been asked to pray with them. It seems clueless to me to not be sensitive to others, I don't even talk about my disbelief with anyone I don't know because it seems insensitive and in today's world, downright dangerous.

I think it would be better to pray quietly, but to each his own.

[MADem]

180. I was at a Bar Mitzvah this past weekend

Fairly conservative Jewish family, with lots of friends and family from all and no faiths in attendance. There was a swell party following the religious services at a very nice venue. All of the praying took place at the synagogue...there was no carrying on at the restaurant. It seemed to work for them, everyone had a fine time!

[in_cog_ni_to]

102. It's distasteful, but so are the "Vote for Jesus" t-shirts I see

all the time around here, or the Jesus fish on every other car, or the W'04 bumper stickers, or the HUGE "Jesus Loves You" mural car decal I saw on a car next to me, or the "I'm a Christian" t-shirt I saw on a girl at my son's school (why do they have to announce it to the world?), or the "Vote pro-Life" yard sign that was across the street and I had to look at it every day through the election :grr:.... It's personally annoying as hell, but there's not a darn thing I can do about it.

Next time...laugh out loud while pointing at them. ;) J/K

[The Straight Story]

266. Nothing you could do about it?

What would you want to do....

[NNN0LHI]

116. Last time someone I was dining with pulled that by the end of the meal...

...they were both filling up their pockets with stolen M&Ms from the desert bar of the buffet. I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't go out to eat with them folks no more.

Don

[rzemanfl]

119. You have got to be kidding! Why go out to eat with them, just

have them steal some food and drop it off for you on their way home.

[NNN0LHI]

158. LOL n/t

[Ilsa]

130. Matt. 6:5: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites ...

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

142. people have a right to practice their religion

does not bother me at all

[Polly Hennessey]

144. Giving Thanks

I have no problem with it --- just do it silently. If you must thank someone for your food say a private grace. I would be more inclined to thank the chef. Personally, I think it is their passive/aggressive way of letting the rest of us know how good they are and how bad we are. Truth be told, I find it offensive. Keep your religious doodling to yourself, don't inflict it on others.

[JuniperLea]

160. You are right

It is very self-righteous... and Jesus really frowns on that.

Our righteousness is but filthy rags before the Lord.

[donco6]

147. I find it somewhat pompous and Holier-than-Thou.

Otherwise I don't give a fig.

[New Government]

224. What about Muslim Dress?

What about the Muslim headdress (or whatever it's called)? That's a form of prayer and obedience to Allah to Muslims. Do you find someone in a restaurant sitting with all that on their bodies, all covered up, is that somewhat pompous and holier-than-thou? I have a feeling you would call any problem with that, uh, bigotry. Customs, like grace before a meal for some Christians, should be respected and tolerated in a diverse country like ours. Why this is even an issue here at DU blows me away.

[JuniperLea]

246. Now you are really reaching, imho

I respect and tolerate prayer as long as it is not done loudly in public. Like Jesus taught.

[donco6]

270. Pfft. No comparison.

Call me a bigot if you want, I don't give a shit.

It's one thing to wear traditional garb, it's another thing to call attention to your piety by making a big production of praying over your meal.

[ronnykmarshall]

148. So what?

If someone wants to pray before they eat ... big deal. Did they come throwing holy water all over your or something.

Jeeeeeezus Christ ala mode, get the hell over it.

[JuniperLea]

168. Read the OP

Prayer in and of itself is not the issue.

[Beaverhausen]

189. Just what is the issue?

That the OP had to sit through a whole 20 seconds of someone praying? Did it ruin his day? Make him sick so that he couldn't eat? What???

[JuniperLea]

192. Oh, gosh... prideful and hypocritical display comes to mind...

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

I don't think it's necessary to enter a closet to say grace, but still, it is between you and God. Not between you and the person sitting across the room.

[Beaverhausen]

205. You sure read a lot into his post

all I see is him being pissed that he had to listen to it, and that he doesn't go to the other person's church and eat.

Again, why are you judging how other's pray? Isn't that "The Lord's" job?

[JuniperLea]

225. Yes, it is the Lord's job

And he gave specific details as to how it should be done.

The OP's reaction to hearing such a loud prayer is good evidence as to one of the reasons why the Lord told us not to do it that way.

[Flying Dream Blues]

300. Well, the Lord apparently gave a lot of details as to how things should be

done (Ten Commandments come to mind) but I don't consider it my job to tell everyone when they are blowing it. I figure that's His job, but maybe that's just me.

[ronnykmarshall]

206. and them snakes !!

Don't forget about them snakes!

[ronnykmarshall]

204. I read more after I posted that.

DAMN! Loud praying and SNAKES!! Oh my.

[DetroitProle]

154. Liberty, anyone?

Unless they're being excessively disruptive, why shouldn't they be allowed to do what they're doing?
I work at a beach in the summer and Muslims pray their prayers there at the given time. Live and let live.
So you have to hear something or see something that bothers you. Oh, what a tragedy. That's the burden of liberty.
The restaurant is private property. If they are being disruptive, like someone who would start throwing chairs around or screaming at the waitstaff, the manager would probably throw them out. You can let him know if you think things are getting disruptive for his patrons.
He'll probably tell you to get a fucking life, unless those people are rolling around on the floor and speaking in tounges.
He'd probably be right.
Personally, I think its impious to pray outloud, or conspicuously. However, in this country, you're allowed to do things like "be impious", or, "talk". Religious practice is non-existent in North Korea, aside from the philosophy of Juche. Bon voyage.

[mondo joe]

163. It's true - people are free to be loud assholes.

Some do it with cell phones, some with their "personal" music, some with prayer.

People are free to be intrusively loud.

And others are free to complain.

[rzemanfl]

197. Your last two sentences and the first sentence in another post,

which I will have to look up to get it right, resolve this for me.

[rzemanfl]

203. "People have the right to practice their religion and I have the

right not to to have to hear it." "People are free to be intrusively loud.

And others are free to complain."

End of discussion in my opinion.

[DawgHouse]

165. It doesn't bother me when people say grace in a restaurant.

I have probably only seen this a dozen or so times in my whole life, though.

[mdmc]

167. I like them

very old fashion.

[Ksec]

174. People saying grace is the least of my worries

Cmon people. Its not an issue that should be given more than a glance. In the grand scheme of things its up there with people farting in public.

[rzemanfl]

217. You shouldn't have said that, the farters are going to be all up in

arms about it.

[ronnykmarshall]

221. I hear ya about them farts.

Can't stand it. Hate it. Loud ones that rattle the windows. Shake the place like a train a'commin thru. And don't get start about the stank!!! Feeuuuwwwww!! Aye!

[nonconformist]

188. That's called freedom of speech and freedom of religion

As long as they're not insisting you join in or leave the restaurant immediately, they're just exercising their rights.

[RB TexLa]

196. Should I not make the Sign of the Cross on me in a restaurant either?

I don't always say Grace before every meal and usually say it in silence, but what could be the big deal if I were to say it at a normal voice range? I hope the poster's "conspicuously" is the main point of contention, that I understand, and think anyone that is disruptive in a place of business should be asked to leave. Being disruptive saying whatever, screaming about Jesus, screaming about B***, screaming about the sky, doesn't matter; if you interrupt others time to go.

[ronnykmarshall]

216. I had someone make a remark when I did that.

I always cross myself before a flight. This one lady said "oh my god, he just crossed himself"!

I flipped her off.

[RB TexLa]

218. LOL, I would have loved to have seen that

:thumbsup:

[rzemanfl]

227. I flew next to a guy who crossed himself before take off and

landing, he had the window seat and I found myself wondering if he knew something I didn't-like William Shattner in the Twilight Zone episode where the gremlins are messing with the engines.

[ronnykmarshall]

231. Oh shit that was ME!

No really. I always cross myself before take off and landing. Can you SEE the little men on the wing??? SEE!! THERE THEY ARE!!!!!!

[rzemanfl]

235. What I want to know is how you got the window seat. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

265. The Agenda, baby the Agenda.

My people ALWAYS get the window. It's in the Agenda. What happens is that when we get the window seats, it makes it easier to send out the powerful "Gay Ray" over the land.

[rzemanfl]

219. What you are describing is obnoxious, not conspicuous. n/t

[Cleita]

202. Are they asking you to join in?

If not, then it's their right. Ignore them.

[rzemanfl]

229. Nope, and they didn't offer to pick up my tab either. n/t

[question everything]

211. I must be eating in the wrong restaurants.. have never seen any

but if did I would feel bad for them. As with invocation, they need to express their prayers in public, to get affirmation of their faith.

(what would happen if you would chant Allah! next to them?)

[New Government]

226. Well, they do.....

When they come into a restaurant in full Muslim dress, that's a form of prayer to them. That's as in-your-face as you can get. I bet you would consider a problem with that bigotry, yes?

[question everything]

279. No, it is not (I am not Muslim) but a mode of dress is one thing

and prayer is another.

For example, many reactionary religious fanatics demand that women be dressed "appropriately." And while the Afghanistan Burka is the extreme, many require women to cover their arms and their legs and to wear high neck blouses and dresses. Never mind that it is the men's problem if they bone up at the sight of a bit of a skin.

No, muslims who wear their traditional clothes are not praying. If you have never seen a muslim praying you may want to go to at least Wikepida, or something. They bow in the direction of Mecca, for one thing.

[bryant69]

232. It's nice to know that not only Right wing Christians can be intolerent

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[thinkingwoman]

234. I feel like they have something to prove

It's a "hey look how pious I am" kind of thing.

I ignore it.

[Kailassa]

237. I just wish they'd keep it to the restaurants, I don't eat out.

I've been playing a game online involving 4 - 6 people. And more and more often, the opponents will start praying in the game chatbox. - Praying for me as I'm obviously a damned heathen because they don't like a move I've made, or praying that God will give them the forebearance to cope with the situation. Anything you do that causes you to win against that sort of "christian" is proof that you are hellbound and need more praying for.

Of course that is just a form of harassment, so I engage them in a religious discussion and show them how wrong they're assumptions are ... I've studied the bible end to end, and peeps who use religion to annoy people have no idea what is in it.

And I make sure I beat them.

[Mutley]

240. It's not a big deal.

It's not like it goes on for 15 minutes, drowning out your conversations the whole time.

[tammywammy]

244. I've been one of those people

My uncle, aunt and his family are very religious. When I've been out to eat with them (and at their house as well), my uncle always says a grace before the meal. While, I'm not as devout as they are, I have no problem with it. It's never done as "in your face." And I'm also sure that people a table or two away can hear it as well, because it's a large family and there's usually between 15-20 people at the table, so he speaks up a bit.

And they're not "fundies" by any means.

I can tell you that when we were out to dinner the day after Rita went over their house, my uncle gave a very nice grace before our meal at a restaurant. He was expressing for everyone else in the family, how thankful that we could go out and enjoy this time together, the thanks that my brother could open up his house to 15 people that were evacuated, his thanks that Rita didn't completely destroy his house and business, as well as giving thanks to the delicious Italian food we were about to indulge in.

Someone saying grace in a restaurant never last more than a couple of minutes at most, and you should be able to just ignore it.

[Lars39]

247. Unless it's a small restaurant and the one speaking puts on his preacher

voice. I've been in that situation. It hampered the other diners' conversations.

[tammywammy]

252. He definitely doesn't put on a preacher voice

But when you have a table of 15 people being quiet and he's the only one talking, I know others can hear him.

[rzemanfl]

248. Summary: It is not okay to eat in someone's Church, it is or is

not okay to pray loudly in restaurants and there is scripture both ways, apparently. It may be okay to criticize snake handlers, or not. It is terrible to compare Santa Claus to religion, but when people compare * to Christ, we should or should not criticize them. Bar fights generate vivid memories as do attempts to convert hungover dudes who just got laid. It might be bigoted to point out that atheists in public office are as rare as hen's teeth, or not. People who cross themselves before and take offs and landings live to post at DU but may have to flip a bird from time to time.

Conclusion: posts about religion waste bandwidth.

[Lars39]

251. It amounts to "busy work."

You had so many takers because today was a slow news day. :)

[rzemanfl]

253. I hear Olbermann broadcast Bush telling a lie and then showed

he was lying, so things will pick up, I'd bet.

[MurrayDelph]

258. Just as bad was the group praying in the airport.

I have "witnessed" (so to speak) two occasions of this sort of false piety:

Once, twenty years ago, I was having breakfast at Walt Disney World, where i noticed a family
that was about to be served made the waitress wait, holding the heavy tray full of food, until
they were finished with their very loud prayer of thankfulness (I saw no reason that they could
not have either said grace before the food arrived, or waited until it was actually in front of them).

The other group was the above-mentioned flight out of LAX, where a group of about two-dozen people
were praying in a circle before their flight, but blocking the hallway so no one else could get by until
they were done.

In both of these cases, I felt that the prayer was being done as much to demonstrate to themselves and others
how serious their belief-system was, but also to force others to be part of the demonstration, thereby forcing
some of their (perceived) goodness upon the others.

Unfortunately, all of they outside thoughts that were generated were of a more-blasphemous nature.

[LisaT]

259. From an evangelical PK

My dad is a PENTACOSTAL minister AND he's a-political. Do I agree with him? Uh no, I'm an atheist and an activist, but if we're in a restaurant he prays over the meal and I sit there and keep my mouth shut. Why? Out of respect for my father, but mostly because he's a HUMAN BEING with his rights to his beliefs as I have to mine. Does it belong in public schools? No. But he's paying for his meal like the rest of us, and he can pray to his old white man in the sky as much as he wants. Aren't we "liberals" supposed to be about tolerance and peace? Do we really want to argue over christians praying in restaurants? Hey, they gotta eat too. It's their way of life, let 'em have at it. It's not remotely similar to "don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

When they get cell phones and screaming children and people eating the charred flesh of other animals and generally loud-mouthed people out of restaurants, then I'll worry about somebody asking their deity for a blessing for their food.

[Kailassa]

264. I just wish their deity was not deaf.

"people eating the charred flesh of other animals and generally loud-mouthed people"

Yep, canabalism in restaurants is a much more serious concern.

[Trajan]

267. GREAT Answer .....

As an atheist, I respect that others, even those I disagree with, have the SAME freedoms and rights which I demand for myself ....

Saying grace to a god isnt something I do, and never will be .... But am I thankful for a decent meal ? .... YOU BET I am .... The human condition can get downright ugly in this world, and usually is. If a human wants to thank an imaginary figure at HIS table for food HE obtained: then have at it, bud ...

Public schooling is funded through public finance: ... private meals are paid for by individuals ....

NOT even close ...

[geniph]

260. Hey, if you're gonna have a Mickey D's burger

you probably SHOULD pray beforehand!

[LoZoccolo]

268. Really, don't you have anything better to do?

Elections are happening this year, you know.

[Blue-Jay]

274. Why would ANY intelligent person care about that?

I'm an atheist and I don't give two shits if someone wants to pray before a meal. Hey, whatever makes you feel good, eh?

I'd feel like a giant douchebag if I got upset about something so innocuous as that.

[electron_blue]

275. LOL, a joke, right?

Here's a better Q for you - what about people who say grace at your house, and insist on everyone holding hands and saying *their* grace when they know full well that I don't say grace? That happened to me last year, weird.

[Clark2008]

276. Oh Lord (no pun intended)

I wish all I had to worry about was someone else saying Grace in a restaurant. Does it really bother you? If it does, you're too uptight.

Geesch. :eyes:

[MissB]

277. I would dance on their ass.

Kidding, kidding. I really don't get the problem here. Funny thread, though.

[NNN0LHI]

286. No you aren't kidding you really would dance on their ass dammit!

I am really kidding. :-)

Don

[SheepyMcSheepster]

282. who are you to decide what words come from their mouth?

geez.

and yes I am an atheist and could care less about praying.

[mondo joe]

298. When did the OP say he or she should decide that?

It's just a complaint about poor manners.

Shheesh.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

308. oh I see,

This is all about manners, not content. Forgive me. I don't know where I got the idea the op had a problem with the content.

[mondo joe]

327. Am I the only one who read the OP? It was about COURTESY.

Though why you think manners and content are mutually exclusive is a mystery to me.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

334. you are the best OP reader ever ok! You win!

Your OP reading skills make me feel like a small and worthless person. I'm not sure how I ever thought that the OP's problem was people praying in public, clearly the OP just dislikes bad manners!

Secondly, you are right again! Why would I ever make a distinction between manners and content? I mean, it is not like the OP made a effort to point out the fact that offensive behavior included prayer right? What a fool I am!

So, thanks to you I have learned that complaints about incidents are not actually complaints about the incident, they are complaints about the general type of behavior that said incident can be classified as. I think I got it!

Seriously though, If someone relays a story to me about how someone pissed in the pool and then ends it by saying "I don't swim in their toilet, why do they have to piss in my pool?", I am going to infer that the person relaying the story is doing so because someone pissed in their pool, not because pool pisser simply had bad manners. Maybe that's just me.

I understand why you argue your point of view. However, I don't feel you have argued it well enough for me to change my opinion of the OP.

[Radio_Guy]

284. I ignore them

Those same people don't say grace before driving their car. And driving is more dangerous than eating. Some people just have their priorities screwed up.

[MissMillie]

285. Whatever gets them through the day...

It's all life's rich pagent.

[justabob]

290. It happens all the time where I work

I don't really care one way or another. I will say it is a little weird when you work at a really busy restaurant and really need to refill water glasses or whatever and move on to other 15 or so people in your station, but have to wait for grace to end.... minor waitress complaint.

[Iris]

291. It annoys me, but it passes. The weirdest was once we were in a rest. in

SC and a many prayed out loud even though he was the only one at the table. I thought that was over the top.

[Bridget Burke]

293. It's a free country.

I don't care for ANY loud disturbance in a restaurant, but Grace doesn't take that long. And most people who say Grace are more discreet.

Apparently, you were disturbed by the very fact of knowing people were saying Grace. Deal with it.

[Jersey Devil]

294. No problem - there are a lot of worse things

Hey, they can exercise their right to practice their religion wherever and whenever they want as far as I am concerned. For the most part these things last only a few seconds, maybe 30 at the most.

I'd rather hear someone saying grace than blabbing on their cell phone about some personal nonsense for 15 minutes loud enough for everyone in the restaurant to get annoyed.

[Chiyo-chichi]

296. "Smite our enemies and increase our territories."

Don't know how I missed this thread yesterday, 'coz I have a good story. Recently, a colleague told me that she & her husband were at a Japanese hibachi-style restaurant. They were seated at a table with another family of 4 or 5. A member of this family said grace loudly and included the phrase "Please smite our enemies and increase our territories."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Increase our territories?!?"

My friend's husband is British. On hearing his accent, one of the fundies asked if he liked Tony Blair. "We do," the fundies said. "We like George Bush, too. He seems so approchable."

Approchable. I guess that's the fundie version of "somebody you could have a beer with" - without the evil beer.

[mondo joe]

301. What's with all the cranky response? The OP is just complaining about

how some people behave in restaurants, not suspending the First Amendment.

There's a range of thoughtless behavior in public - people making out in public, having loud cell phone conversations, and you can add this to it.

The OP didn't suggest banning religion.

[rinsd]

316. Mondo Joe, I doubt the OP would have posted other annoyances...

...such as someone dropping f-bombs or the guy next to him farting.

So let's not pretend that this doesn't center around saying grace but rather someone being loud.

[mondo joe]

323. I don't have your psychic gifts. All I can know is that the OP posted a

question about COURTESY, not about abolishing the first amendment.

[rinsd]

335. Sigh

One doesn't need psychic powers to see the poster's main point even with the lack of tone the internet offers. Otherwise why would almost all of the posters feel the need to point out scripture about prayer in public or defend these people's right to pray?

[rzemanfl]

341. The point is that people would ask/tell someone using their

cell phone loudly or the like to stop, I cannot imagine someone in this country asking someone else to stop praying.

Do you actually know of people who make it a point to fart before meals???

[rzemanfl]

317. Right, as a matter of fact, I made it a question of courtesy, not

religion. People making out in public, loud cell conversations, f-bombs
all are behavior best kept private. One poster feels, however, that I have issues with religion and need help. Wonder if he or she will pray for me, not that I care.

[baby_mouse]

303. In RESTERAUNTS?

:0 :wtf:

I think they'er saying:

"ME ME ME ME ME LOOK AT MEEEEEEE everybody I'm such a GOOD Christian."

I think it's creepy. That's what I think.

[DanCa]

304. My mom taught me to say grace quitely with my hands under the table.

My family always taught me to respect the rights of other people, thats we why dont decorate the outside of our house on Christmas. (It's decorated to the hilt on the inside.) But I think the problem is that no one wants to respect the rights of anyone else any more. It all comes back to my way or the highway doesn't it?

[ScreamingMeemie]

307. Yet again, We (for now) Live in a Free Country...where Free Speech

is still allowed whether we like it or not. I don't like hearing the ass next to me regale his friends with (made up) tales of his night's adventures with some "hot chick" (probably made out of latex), but he's allowed. As is the family saying "grace" before digging into their Chick 'n baskets. :hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

313. Conspicuously? I immediately think of Jesus' parable..

of the pious man in the temple.

[Nikki Stone 1]

318. As long as it's not an indication of the quality of the food... :)

:D

[MazeRat7]

321. Bet i could post anything this deep in the thread and no one would notice.

[Nikki Stone 1]

322. What did you have in mind?

:)

[MazeRat7]

324. Damn... Busted !!! You are the first to actually call me on it....

I figured after about 300 responses... wtf ? Its worked so many times before... guess I should amend my ways.

Oh and for an on-topic post.

Saying grace out loud in public is no different than talking on a cell phone in public. I really don't care what you have to say to whoever, but I would really appreciate it if you kept your voice down. *wink.

MZr7

[Nikki Stone 1]

329. That works for me. I don't care if they say grace and long as the food is

ok. Of course, I don't know if God answers prayers from Denny's. :)

[rzemanfl]

331. God is still dealing with the "Sambo's" issue and isn't taking

calls from there yet.

[Nikki Stone 1]

332. Good for God. Sometimes, he gets it right.

:evilgrin:

Guess I'm headed for hell now.

[Skittles]

333. I wonder if they know 35,000 kids stave to death each day

I wonder if they wonder why the lord doesn't provide food for those children

[petronius]

337. I think of them the same way I think of all those gay people "flaunting"

their sexuality.

I tend to think that sometimes people use words like "conspicuously" or "flaunting" as code for "doing something in public that I don't like", and I think the problem lies more with the person objecting than the action being objected to.

I couldn't care less if people pray in public. If they are so loud as to be disruptive, then I'd hold them to the same standards as any other disruptive behavior, but the way your post is written it sounds like your beef is more with the act and less with the volume...

[lost_anthropologist]

340. Isn't there scripture about keeping prayer to yourself?

It can be quite frustrating when someone says grace in public. What they're really saying is, "Look, I'm holier than thou!" while enabling themselves to criticize those who do not say grace, as they are not paying homage to God.

I remember sitting in a sweltering pew of the church as the priest was reading about some guy or other who was saying it was better to pray in the privacy of your own room rather than to get down on your knees in public to draw attention. Don't the modest inherit something? And the humble? And meek? The least you can do is keep your grace silent, if you truly do believe.