Americans don't like discussing atrocities done by the USA because...

[NNN0LHI]

Poll question: Americans don't like discussing atrocities done by the USA because...

[booksenkatz]

1. A couple of other reasons

at least as far as Joe Sixpack is concerned.

1. It's happening far away;
2. It's happening to people with dark skin and a spooky, unAmurkan religion;
3. It doesn't involve any of my chickenhawk family members;
4. Anything that is perceived as keeping Amurka safe is not only ok, it's FANTASTIC;
5. We're Number One;
6. Because Amurkan Idol is on TV tonight;
7. Why do you hate Amurka?

[Cobalt Violet]

2. Americans are superior and thus entitled to do atrocities...

to everyone else because everyone else is not American. So if the right can demonize the left as being anti-American, atrocities can be justified against us too. I believe that's where we're going.

[Mnemosyne]

22. I wish I could disagree with you Cobalt,

but I can't. :(

With some of the crap you hear lunatics like coulter spewing, you know how we would be treated if they got half a chance.

[Kailassa]

3. Because the dream was sooo good.

America's whole fabric is built around the notion of "America, the good, the great,"
And seeing that you have been lied to and fooled by the whole of society is just too painful.

And what's the payoff? If the dream was pleasant, who wants to wake up from it?
Especially if it would mean leaving ones friends behind, because they are still dreaming.

And so the repugs continue to exist happily in their combined wet dream.

[sendero]

4. Americans have been spinning our own history..

.... so long they haven't the slightest idea what the objective truth it.

From the tactics used in the Revolutionary War, which would qualify as "terrorist" today, to the systematic genocide of the native peoples, to the use of the military to bolster economic interests, etc, etc, etc - Americans are happy to hold the world to the highest moral standards, but we fall well short in our own behavior.

This is not necessarily any different than any other country, it's just that until the near future we've had the military and economic power to get away with it.

That is about to end.

[Inland]

5. because they don't want to admit they don't think it's an atrocity.

Just part of the business of war, like when a bomb goes astray. Sometimes the troops go astray, it's a high pressure situation, somebody IED'd their convoy, all understandably part of the war, somebody will get disciplined, mostly for show, the war goes on.

But nobody wants to articulate that the occasional, regrettable but inevitable slaughter is part of the decision to go to war. That might make this war or the next war look like a bad thing and make people hesitate. And we can't have that.

[Junkdrawer]

6. Because it would obligate them to take actions they are not ready for...

America's new motto: "It's not all that bad."

[NoGOP]

7. I think most don't care........

They're wrapped up in day to day living. When photos or another story come out their ears perk up a little bit. They'll see where someone like this England is labeled a bad egg in a good bunch, gets punished and they go back to their lives. The administration has also really clouded the issue about what is allowed, what isn't, this a war, a war on terror but the people captured aren't POW's because it's not really a war so they don't get Geneva Convention treatment, but they're not criminal arrests so they don't get lawyers or trials.

[Burried News]

8. "Polite Society" doesn't want to discuss its anal sadistic desires.

George Bush is acting out the wish of alot of Americans.

Then there is the issue of courage. To speak out requires courage. You don't speak out for long without being ostracized. How many Americans will risk that kind of alienation and endure what Cindy Sheehan endures. Loss of friends and family, friendly relations with co-workers, mockery etc. There are people in the cemetary (literal and metaphoric)who were right - dead right.

[BlueJazz]

9. The Main reason is...>>

..beacause...um..I know..Let's all go to McDonalds!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. There a mixed reasons

Many are asharmed. Others cheer it on because "those people deserve it" because of either 911 or because they are sitting on "our" oil. Still others live with the illusion that we are the "good guys" and if something happened to "those people", well then, they brought it on themselves.

I think it is important for us to remind people of the atrocities committed in our name so that we can wake up the people living in illusion so that they can help us defeat the Bushites this November.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. Orwell knows why:

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[Burried News]

18. How did Orwell not go mad knowing the truths he knew. A very

remarkable man he was to look into the Gorgon's eyes and bring back the truth.

[Selatius]

27. I'm sure he suffered some mental trauma after the Spanish Civil War

He is a veteran of that conflict. Unfortunately, because he was a member of the socialist anti-Stalinist POUM militias, he was caught having to struggle not only against the fascists backed by Nazi Germany but also against authoritarian socialists backed by none other than the USSR. In the end, Franco and the fascists won out against both the libertarian socialists and the Stalinists.

[Divernan]

12. Cognitive dissonance between their racism & avowed Christianity.

Interesting question. I think most conservatives who are not among the uberwealthy have lots of deep fears,resentments and insecurities about their self-perceived lack of success, i.e., they espouse GOP greed and tax breaks for the wealthy in the deluded belief that they will one day make it to that top economic echelon. But with every day that passes, that future dream recedes a bit farther away. The farther down they go on their economic self-measurement scale, the more they look for scapegoats to blame for their dismal economic state, and those scapegoats are foreigners, migrant workers, emigrants, minorities, uppity women, etc. I think these people want to see all Muslims dead (the same exteme "final" solution of which they accuse all Muslims). And so they take pleasure at the news of the atrocities. BUT subconsciously they have all their childhood Christian platitudes about loving your neighbor, whatever you do for the least of these, more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, throwing the moneychangers out of the temple, suffer the little children to come unto me, etc. That results in cognitive dissonance. And if they are savy businessmen, they know it is better to keep their racist opinions and hatreds to themselves.

[Burried News]

28. The final solution is indeed a projection onto our enemies. Who of course

start to play the role we assign them and things spiral out of control. In the confusion all responsibility is lost until we find a new 'other' to project upon - Repitition compulsion, paranoia all bundled into one insoluble mess.

[mmonk]

13. Most don't believe there are atrocities going on

by Americans, pure and simple. They also are driven by the concept that all people in Muslim countries are out to destroy the US. They are guilty as a society (all the societies there) and as a religion for 9/11 and this is a life and death struggle for our very existence. They are told this everyday by the people they listen to whether it be rightwing radio, their local clergy, weakkneed turncoat dems, or corporate news which really doesn't dispute the idea and also gives them the idea we are really saving all people from the middle east from tyranny. With that mindset and trained thought, the truth cannot get in by just us telling them the truths surrounding the neocon agenda because what we say isn't backed up by anything they see on a daily basis. They are told we are an enemy of sorts as well. This country is in a sick state, currently.

[wakeme2008]

14. IMHO it's the old Support the Troops thing.

If you press on the atrocities then it would be said by some vocal groups you do not support the troops. It is very much a double edge knife.....

[Burried News]

15. It is easier to tell another lie to ourselves than acknowledge

a truth that would tear down the whole house of lies each of us has built for ourselves.

Thread recommended.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. Americans have completely internalized the myth that we are the Good Guys.

Good Guys don't commit atrocities; therefore whatever is being done can't be an atrocity. If we accepted that atrocities really are being committed, then our myth of being the Good Guys explodes.

[rman]

17. Different reasons for different people

People with corporate interests don't want it discussed because it's bad for business.

Staunch repubs don't want it discussed because their party doesn't want it discussed.

Many others want it not discussed because they buy in the myth propagated by the MSM that the US does not commit atrocities.

Of course these reasons are related.

Something like that.

[Ufomammut]

19. chauvinism jingoism nationalism Orwellian "newspeak"

Brainwashing under "freedom." Think of it as akin to the sports mentality: People are in denial over the "captains" of the "home team" as lying, war profiteering, mass murderers.

This in-denial mentality is fostered from Kindergarden on: creating irrational attitudes of submission to authority. The reality of "America" sharply contrasts with the fairytale notion people are "instructed" to believe regarding "freedom" and "democracy."

[AndyA]

20. Americans aren't concerned about an issue until it affects THEM personally

They watch the right wing news stories night after night, think about how horrible things are "over there" and say a prayer for our soldiers fighting on the front line. But when gasoline prices go up due to shortages caused by a supply interruption due to the war, they get upset.

Americans are great ones for allowing another to have their rights taken away from them, as long as it doesn't have any affect on the population at large, that's just fine with them. Only when it has a direct impact on their own lives will Americans complain, and at that point it's generally too late.

For instance, to protect the sanctity of marriage, many Americans think that preventing gays from having the same rights they have is perfectly fine. It's to "protect the sanctity of marriage." But if they weren't able to get a divorce and remarry a couple of times, they would object to that.

And consider the spying issue. Since they aren't doing anything wrong, many Americans have no issue with Bush spying on them. It will only be after they suffer some consequence of that spying that they will be upset.

By and large, I think many Americans today are politically lazy. They do nothing, including casting a vote, until there's a direct impact on their lives. They take for granted the freedoms and liberties their ancestors fought so hard for. Since everything has been given to them, they won't realize what they're missing until it's been taken away.

Pathetic generally describes the situation.

[greekspeak]

21. There are no atrocities...only "colateral damage"

Americans love to use euphemisms to explain away unpleasant things and places. No hospitals...medical centers. No more nursing homes...skilled nursing facilities. And, no atrocities, only some "colateral damage." That and many Americans are far too materialistic and greedy to give a crap about people who are not very white, not Christian and that live half a world away. Who cares about this when there is a plasma TV to get got and a white sale to attend?

[IndianaGreen]

23. The myth of America being inherently good will be punctured!

How many Americans really believe that GAWD blesses America when they sing that stupid song? Or that our country is bestowed with a special Divine dispensation that no one else has?

The last thing Americans want to hear is that we are just like everybody else, just as capable of doing good, having flaws, having virtues, and committing the most horrendous crimes.

Racism is the belief that one's group is better and superior to anyone else.

[izzie]

24. All three and some see it as OK.but only for the rulers. So do not tell

==

[Vidar]

25. Denial is the real basis of life and belief in the US.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

26. That seems right.

Most of our country is far more into the practice of sticking their heads in the sand and celebrating anti-intellectualism that seeing how things could be better and taking responsibility. Our actions will have consequences down the road. I hope when that happens, my children and someday my grandchildren survive. To do acts of injustice are still injustice no matter how much you want to gloss it over and pretend it's something else.

[Mutley]

29. Americans are too wrapped up in their own lives

They don't realize, or can't admit that this country is far from perfect, and that we make mistakes which have consequences throughout the world. Once -- if ever -- they are aware of it they either don't believe it, or are far too uncomfortable to acknowledge it.

[leftofthedial]

30. cognitive dissonance

and the subconsious protection of one's delusions

[DanCa]

31. They voted for this damn war,,,

Acknowledging the fact that war is going horribly wrong (did it ever go right) means that they'd have to own up to thier mistakes. And thus accepting responsibility for all those people who died because of thier mistake. Hey they might refuse to see the blood on their hands doesn't mean that it's not their.

[EstimatedProphet]

32. It's because we're the good guys and we don't commit atrocities

We're the guys in the white hats. In Westerns, the guys in the white hats were the good guys, What they did was right-even if it was wrong, because they were the good guys in the white hats. That's what we are.

[anarch]

33. Americans are incapable of committing atrocities

You see, Americans are the greatest, smartest, most bestest and magical people on the planet, and they can do no wrong. We saved all of Europe from the Nazis, after all, and if you don't like living in the greatest, most wonderful and free country ever to exist on the planet, then why don't you move to France you goddamned commie etc.

[Tyler Durden]

35. BOY did you ever say it well.

I spent the evening last night with a group of Christian and Muslim Peace advocates, and I'm trying to keep my good attitude, but the assholes and pinheads I work with are breaking their backs to get me back in depression.

Not today, Kamarada.

[rockymountaindem]

34. Does anybody like talking about the black spots on their history?

What if we walked into a Japanese mall and posted signs that read "lecture on Japanese mass murder in China: 1931-1945, today at 2pm"? How many people would come? What if we walked down the streets of Madrid with a bullhorn shouting "shame, shame on Spain for slaughtering millions of Native Americans, Muslims and Jews". How do you think people would react? Or what if we went into a street cafe in Paris and said, "boy, I bet you French are really proud of your distinguished colonial history in Algeria and Indochina".

Americans, while often ignorant of our national embarassments, are not unique in this regard.

[SteelBird]

37. Ive heard about Japanese textbooks that deny

what happened in Nanking. You're right, it's not a uniquely American thing to be unwilling to discuss their nation's black marks.

[NNN0LHI]

38. Some people have chose to memorialize their victims rather than ignore them

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=tus&q=germany%2Bholocaust+memorial+&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

CNN.com - Berlin unveils Holocaust memorial - May 10, 2005Berlin has unveiled a memorial to the victims of the Holocaust, ending 17 years of charged debate over how Germany should remember that grim period of its ...
www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/05/10/berlin.holocaust/ - 52k - Cached - Similar pages


USATODAY.com - Germany's memorial to Jews completedA crane hoisted the last of thousands of charcoal-colored slabs into place at Germany's national Holocaust memorial Wednesday to commemorate the 6 million ...
www.usatoday.com/news/world/ 2004-12-15-germany-holocaust-memorial_x.htm - 53k - Cached - Similar pages


BBC NEWS | Europe | Berlin opens Holocaust memorialGermany unveils a new Holocaust memorial in Berlin, after years of controversy over its construction.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4531669.stm - 42k - Cached - Similar pages


The Holocaust Memorial Center. About the HolocaustThe German government's policy of forcing Jews to wear badges, ... (c) 2003 Holocaust Memorial Center, [e-mail] 28123 Orchard Lake Road, ...
www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/holocaustbadges.shtml - 14k - Cached - Similar pages


The Holocaust Memorial Center. About the HolocaustThe Nazi Party had taken advantage of the political unrest in Germany to gain an ... Book initiated and developed by the Holocaust Memorial Center, ...
www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/historyof.shtml - 35k - Cached - Similar pages


Nazi RuleThe Reichstag (German parliament) became a rubber stamp for Hitler's ... For more information, see "The Third Reich" in the Holocaust Encyclopedia. ...
www.ushmm.org/outreach/nrule.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages


Online Exhibitions | The Doctors TrialUS Holocaust Museum's online exhibit on the trial against 23 leading German physicians and administrators for their willing participation in war crimes and ...
www.ushmm.org/research/doctors/ - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.ushmm.org >


frontline: a jew among the germans: germany's memorial: "germany's ..."germany's holocaust memorial problem -- and mine" by James E. Young ... But as one of the newly appointed arbiters of German Holocaust memory, ...
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/germans/memorial/young.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages


Holocaust Memorial Day and Freemasonry. 80000 Freemasons died as a ...The Grand Lodge of Scotland marks Holocaust Memorial Day which falls on 27 January - the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, Poland.
www.grandlodgescotland.com/glos/Holocaust_Memorial_Day/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


Michael Blackwood Productions: Peter Eisenman: Building Germany's ...Peter Eisenman: Building Germany's Holocaust Memorial 58 minutes, color. Peter Eisenman may well be rembered best for his Holocaust Memorial which he built ...
www.panix.com/~blackwoo/new_eisenman.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages



I think the hope is that by not forgetting these horrors they will not be repeated.

[rockymountaindem]

42. You make a good point

I left Germany off my little list for a reason. Speaking as a Jew, I must say Germany has done an exemplary job (at least as far as government policy goes, I don't know how the population feels about things) of owning up to their past and honoring the victims of the Holocaust. I appreciate that.

Other countries, not so good...

[Bluerthanblue]

36. denial is easier than facing the truth that

'we' are not who most of us desire to be- and that 'we' in reality, have no control over the terrible things done 'in our name'- or 'under the banner of 'America'-

Suicide, violence, and despair would destroy us all- I don't believe most folks have it in them anymore to 'fight the machine' with any real hope of victory- so we 'deny' 'disengage' and 'destroy those who rub the facts in our face-"

But that doesn't solve anything- and here we are.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. They blame the beheadings for the reason to torture POWs...

I don't recall the beheadings of American soldiers starting until after the POW torture at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, became public knowledge. I don't think any American POWs were killed during the first Gulf War. Some may have been beaten or mistreated, but you kind of expect that out of sorry criminal regime like Saddam's, but not out of a country like ours, who is signatory to the Geneva Convention Rules and a country that preaches "HUMAN RIGHTS to despotic criminals around the world, who would torture unarmed, restrained, prisoners of war.

Abu Ghraib Dog Tactics Came From Guantanamo

Testimony Further Links Procedures at 2 Facilities

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 27, 2005; Page A14

Military interrogators at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq learned about the use of military working dogs to intimidate detainees from a team of interrogators dispatched from the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to court testimony yesterday.

One interrogation analyst also testified that sleep deprivation and forced nudity -- which were used in Cuba on high-value detainees -- later were approved tactics at Abu Ghraib. Another soldier said that interrogators would regularly pass instructions to have dog handlers and military police "scare up" detainees as part of interrogation plans, part of an approved approach that relied on exploiting the fear of dogs. MORE...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072601792.html

"NEVER AGAIN?"

Amon Goeth

snip...


Born in Vienna Amon Goeth joined a Nazi youth group at seventeen, moved to a nationalist paramilitary group at nineteen, and, in 1930, when he was twenty-two, joined the then outlawed Austrian Nazi Party. He was designated No. 510,964, and in the same year he joined the S.S.

Amon Goeth fled to Germany when he was pursued by Austrian authorities for crimes involving explosives. His superior officers admired his devotion, gave him glowing personal evaluations and transferred him to the S.S. A son was born in 1939 and died of unexplained causes less than a year later. Amon Goeth was a model officer, and his reward was a posting, in August, 1942, with Aktion Reinhard, the S.S. operation to liquidate more than two million Polish Jews.

His posting as commandant at Plaszow was his career zenith ...

snip...

"The case of Olmer, whose daughter lives in Jerusalem, and I know her .. He was summoned by the Camp Commandant Amon Goeth. The Camp Commandant had two dogs, Ralf and Rolf, and he set the dogs on him. The dogs ate him up alive. Possibly a little breath still remained in him. He shot him and he was killed ...More

http://www.oskarschindler.com/12.htm

Ravensbrück

The regime was strict, punishment was inflicted, and harsh labor was required. Solitary confinement in the dark and airless prison cells of the “Bunker,” the usual punishment for acts considered sabotage or resistance, was often accompanied by severe beatings or other torture. Other routine torture methods included attacks by SS dogs. In addition to the “Bunker,” there was a barrack separated from the camp by a fence, which served as a punishment block. SS Reichsführer and Head of the German Police, Heinrich Himmler, ordered whippings beginning in April 1942. A prisoner categorized as a criminal carried out the orders, and received extra rations. The camp doctor was required to be present at each punishment, to confirm it had been carried out. Himmler later ordered whipping to be used only as a “last resort.” MORE...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Ravensbruck.html


COURT REVOKES U.S. CITIZENSHIP OF FORMER
NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMP GUARD

snip...

At Sachsenhausen, Negele was selected for special training in the use of a guard dog. Guards with dogs were used to patrol the perimeter of concentration camps, to guard prisoners en route to and from transports and work details, and to pursue escaped prisoners. The SS regulations stated that dogs were trained to attack prisoners when ordered by their handler, to subdue escaped and escaping prisoners, and, if necessary, to "bite without mercy."

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1999/July/317crm.htm

Vught (Holland)

snip...

Originally, Vught was divided into two sections: the first one (Judendurchgangslager - JDL) was designed to hold the Jewish prisoners before their transit to Germany the transfers were done in two transports: from Vught to Westerbock then from Westerbock to the extermination camps. The pending transfer of Jewish prisoners to Westerbock never created panic: many of the Jews thought that they would stay permanently in Westerbock. They didn't know that Westerbock was just a "waiting room" before their extermination.

The second section of Vught was designed as a security camp (Schutzhaftlager). This section received all the Dutch and Belgian political prisoners, men and women. The guards were exclusively SS. The food was nearly nonexistent : warm water with some carrots or sauerkraut floating on the surface. The SS guards tortured the prisoners with incredible cruelty beating them to death (several prisoners were brutalized with a club wrapped with barbed wire). The SS often provoked their dogs to attack prisoners and there are several testimonies of horrible wounds, including to genitals. Hundreds of Dutch and Belgian prisoners were executed by shooting in a place called "De Ijzeren Man", located +-900 meters from the camp. MORE...

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/VughtEngl.html

NEVER AGAIN??????

[Hubert Flottz]

40. NOPE...Bush is a man of GOD!

His is the party of "MORALITY" and "FAMILY VALUES!"

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/06/13/abughraib_dog_torture_430,0.jpg

[Ufomammut]

41. PR damage control

One week after the pics broke, if I recall. There was a lot of evidence that suggested Nick Berg - the first high profile beheading video - was staged, carried out by US operatives. I've not researched it, but it wouldn't surprise me. He was working on communications towers at Abu Ghraib, and his father was staunchly anti-Bush/anti-war.

[Hubert Flottz]

44. I put nothing past these bastards!

You know how pissed the WORLD was over those pictures. I think you may be right. The life of Nick Berg would have been a "Small Price" to pay,(or at least that's what Bush and his accomplices would have probably figured)for Bushco to defuse that monster of a scandal and to take some of the heat off of the high command.

[mattclearing]

43. Because they feel responsible for the actions of their country.

And don't want to face what is being done in their name.