I think I may have touched on how to counteract fundies.........

[Minnesota Libra]

......but let me premise this with the fact that some but not all fundies/neocons are religious fanatics. None the less the ones that are fanatical screw it up for everyone.

How about those among us who are knowledgeable on the Bible (doesn't include me) and especially Biblical history put together a pamphlet/flier/book on how bleeding heart liberal Jesus truly was?? Yes, I know books have been written on the issue. I'm talking about something that is catchy and can be left/given to the liberal as well as the neocon/fundies among us.

If something like this already exists on paper or in an object of some kind I'd like to know about it. I'd like to know where to get it, how much it is, and any other info you have.

Please, for the sake of discussion here don't just dismiss the idea completely. If you don't think it would work then fine, but tell me why.
Just remember a fireman can use a "backfire" to put out a fire so why don't we use neocon/fundie fundamentalism to put them in their place?

So here goes, anyone with comments and ideas, jump right in and tell me about them.

[C_U_L8R]

1. They know and we know

and most of all... GOD KNOWS that these "fundies" are the furthest thing from being christian
(if indeed a christian is one who adheres to the teachings of christ)

Hell has special plans for philistines, pharisees and right wing sycophants like the "fundies".

Hey fundies!!! Bwahahahhahahaha

[izzybeans]

2. They won't listen to anyone but their pastor and whoever their

pastor tells them to trust.

It really has nothing to do with the content of the bible. Fundamentalism before WWI was pacifist and spoke of the Jesus you speak of. But only included men and whites in the preaching.

Republicans have really figured out how to capitalize on the contemporary fundamentalist culture. It defines itself against everything modern, progressive, or appearing secular.

They no longer see the Prince of Peace, because that would make him a dirty hippie. And we all know dirty hippies are afflicted with the carnal scourge and deserve to burn in hell for all eternity.

There will be no winning the pseudo-literalist; even though they've been forced to interpret broad sections of the bible they still have no mental dexterity. Asking them to look at Jesus in a way that violates contemporary thinking in their circles will feel like an iconoclash and they will erupt in a reactionary frenzy. "Cause what do godless liberals know about Jesus. They hate him."

[converted_democrat]

10. You've got it! The only thing that I would add is that fundies, though

they call themselves "Christian," they are enamored with the Old Testament.. They like the idea of an eye for an eye, and stoning anyone that doesn't agree with them.. They call themselves Christian, but they don't follow any of the teachings of Jesus.. (love, peace, charity) They are still stuck in the Old Testament.. Their God is an angry spirit in the sky, who waits for an opportunity to punish them for the smallest infraction..

The fundy movement isn't really about religion, it's about a bunch of powerless white guys that want to drag us back to the period that they had the most power.. That's why they want choice for women and civil rights pealed back.. This isn't about religion, this is about gaining power and control under the guise of religion..

The plan mentioned above wouldn't work because they don't give a flip about Jesus, or what his teachings say.. Turn the other cheek and eye for an eye fly in the face of each other, but they go with the eye for an eye every time.. They just pick and choose what they want out of the bible that benefits them.. If they valued Jesus and his messages in the first place, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in right now..

[DainBramaged]

3. I have a 6 pound hammer I use

[zbdent]

9. I was thinking of G. Gordon Liddy's statement

about ATF agents . . . wonder why nobody ever screamed in the MSM about that statement . . .

[JNelson6563]

4. This has been thought of

and we went through many bumper stickers that read: Jesus was the original liberal.

[Frank Cannon]

5. It doesn't take much

These people have almost zero knowledge of the actual Gospels. Just get a red-letter New Testament, memorize a few choice Jesus quotes (such as the one in my sig line, which is Jesus' own appeal for the separation of church and state) and you can shut down any fundie on any day.

[undeterred]

6. They use the Bible as an arsenal of verse weapons instead of

trying to understand it.

[iamahaingttta]

7. Fuck the Fudies...

You don't reason with Fundies, because by their very definition they will not use reason.

The only thing left to do is to stir them up enough so they join the Army and "go fight the enemy over there" so that we don't have to deal with them over here. The only good Fundie, on EITHER side, is a dead Fundie.

Fuck 'em!

[salin]

8. This would only work for those

who are a) deeply spiritual (not just proforma religious because it is the "in" thing.)
and who are b) starting to become uncomfortable with the current political climate (and thus experiencing some disconnect between what they hear in church, what they see on the news, and what they feel in their hearts.)

That is, there already needs to be a space, within the indivicual, that is either already searching (for spiritual grounding that is different than what they are hearing in their Church) - or that is ripe for some soul searching. That is - there needs to be some internal receptivity for this to be effective with an individual.

For those not yet there, this would fall on deaf ears.

[Minnesota Libra]

11. maybe it would fall on some deaf ears but it's worth a try nt

[salin]

12. I would talk with folks first

and if finding some discomfort with the current evangelical/political movement... then push on - and you might find some very receptive folks - esp to reading and contemplating more.

[Coyote_Bandit]

13. I spent more years at a Christian college than I will admit

I studied history, business, political science, education and law. Some of my former professors and classmates have penned some of the inspirational tomes of the religious right.

Faith based decisions (including voting) are the result of faith based rationale. Fundies are not going to be persuaded by discussions ragarding political issues or theological arguments that Jesus was a liberal. These kinds of arguments have been repeatedly used by a variety of speakers in numerous contexts. They have been largely unsuccessful. The issues we typically associate with fundamentalism are merely symptoms of the the more fundamental theological issues in play. They are not the issues that need to be addressed.

[Bridget Burke]

14. You mean--be the anti-Jack Chick?

Sounds like a good idea. There are quite a few liberal Christians--even liberal Evangelicals. Could they put something together? Some well-done pamphlets might catch the interest of the non-brain-dead. And there are still some of those...

[KittyWampus]

42. May I just say, the first time I read Jack Chick, my jaw literally

dropped open. It was so over-the-top it seemed like satire. As in the Colbert Report.

[LeftHander]

15. Peer pressure and guilt....

Have been used by bix box fundie churches.
Picketing of Fundie churches by NON-Fundemental religious organizations would send a message.
Pointing out hypocrisy and discrimination. Not the basic constructs of the faith.

There are extemist elements that lead fundementalist churches and they use guilt and community association to make people do what they want.

These churches need to drawn out and exposed for the dangerous extremist organizations that they are.

[Minnesota Libra]

19. OK ,so how do we do that without violating anyone's........

......freedom of religion or non-religion and at least reach the more sensible among them??

[Solomon]

16. Here's the problem everyone is overlooking though some here touched

on it. There are actually two Jesus Christs. The first one was the liberal hippie, but when he returns... he a gonna be spitting fire and killing all the infidels, separating the wheat from the chaff and so forth. He's not a loving peaceful guy anymore. He's a hardline fundamental conservative.

They identify with the second Jesus. Not the first. It took me a while to realize this is how the mean people think they are "christian."

What would Jesus do? Burn up all the non-believers.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. You have a point there - so how do we counteract this in everyday.........

....life?? Or are we doomed to living with the shadow of their fundamentalism from here on regardless of who controls the three branches of government??

[DemonFighterLives]

18. Great Ideas and I'm recommending this thread

The trouble is that the fundies use their religion as a cover for racist and sexist beliefs. They go around spreading terrorist talk and that all Muslims want to kill all Americans and especially Christians. They wish to take away women's right to choose and every other right that women have gotten.

I have not quite figured out how they can square this with their religous teachings, but it seems like brainwashing to me. The bushies have hoards of mindless sycophants willing to do their bidding and they have the money at the top to keep it rolling. If only the crooks* could be exposed for what they are.

Most seem content to be left in the dark.
:dem:

[Minnesota Libra]

20. So maybe attacking the fundies from the brain washing approach?? nt

[DemonFighterLives]

22. We need to get the right wing media back

When the truth can be told in public, we win!

:freak:

First, then deprogramming can commence.

[Solomon]

23. Attacking fundies only proves them right as far as they are concerned.

Part of their belief system is they have to be persecuted for believing so when you attack them in any way, you unwittingly fuel their fire.

[durrrty libby]

24. You are assuming they have a brain to wash! n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

36. The hypocrisy is beyond frustrating

As you said, they use their religion as cover to brainwash. All the while denouncing Islam as a religion that brainwashes preaching hate and terrorism. :freak:

Yesterday, I read Georgia (IIRC) has approved teaching Bible study as a HS elective course in public school. Also, in Pennsylvania, a non-profit group of "conservative Christian leaders" are executing the same type of strategy as the Ohio Project...the equivalent of American Mullahs.

Right here in the Bible Belt, an off his rocker fundamentalist opposed the incumbent CONgresswoman. Many would say he didn't have a prayer (LOL!!!) and as it turns out, he received about 15% +/- of the Republican primary vote. Not much...just 7,000+ supporters. So, percentage wise it isn't much. But numbers wise, does anyone truly believe that a parade of 7,000 people marching through a suburban street would be ignored?

They used to be able to deprogram cult members one by one; I just wish we could figure out how to deprogram these people en masse.

Edit on the 7,000...Just checked an updated tally of results. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/elections/chi-primaryresults-htmlstory,0,2520894.htmlstory#governor

U.S. House - District 13 - GOP Primary - Illinois 548 of 570 Precincts Reporting - 96.14%
Name Party Votes Pct
Biggert , Judy (i) GOP 51,347 79.65
Hart , Bob GOP 13,119 20.35
:cry:

[Minnesota Libra]

37. "deprogram these people en masse" - exactly what I'd like to do nt

[DemonFighterLives]

40. I had a cousin who had to be snatched from a cult

Now she follows this mindless cult. Her emails are all about prayer in school, the damn pledge of allegiance, etc, etc.
I wonder if brother Ramma worked for the b*shies. :think:

[PaDem]

21. I wish it were that simple

Most Christian fundamentalists have been indoctrinated over a long period of time from a variety of places. The problem is a lack of discernment. People generally don't wrestle with their faith (as the Bible suggests that we should). It's much easier just to go along with whatever the pastor or religious leader on TV/Radio says. I think we're looking at a 20 year or more struggle before serious headway can be made with this crowd (some would say it's not worth the effort). The onus is on people like me who are Evangelical Christians to "change things" from the inside. I've spent the past 5 years struggling to find the best strategy to reach people. I'd like to write a book, something a handful of others have done.

As for a pamphlet, it's hard to say what kind of impact that would have. My feeling lately has been that perhaps the most effective strategy is to show fundamentalists exactly what 30 years of conservative political advocacy has gotten them as opposed to trying to change their minds (that's where the long struggle comes in). I think that we can show folks rather quickly just how badly they are being used by the Republicans.

[Minnesota Libra]

25. Twenty years or more of this struggle with fundies?? Oh you.......

....are just full of good news today aren't you.:sarcasm:

Ok, joking aside now, it seems that showing people what "30 years of conservative political advocacy has gotten them" would simply get a nod of approval from the ultra fundies and everyone else might just clam up out of fear.

I'm really at a loss here as to how the ultra fundies can be dealt with for everyone's good.:shrug: :cry:

[C_U_L8R]

26. The rapture would be a good start

fly away fundies.. fly fly

[PaDem]

32. My point is that 30 years......

of backing the republicans has gotten the fundies virtually nowhere with regard to "progress" on their pet issues. This much is quite obvious and can be seen by any fundie who steps back and looks at it objectively. The Repubs cynically use these folks, leading them around like blind sheep. I think getting them to either pull out of politics or start pushing third party (and even more radical) candidates is the best way to neutralize their impact as a voting bloc. Their biggest accomplishment has been the empowerment of anything goes laissez-faire free market capitalism that has undermined the enviornment and caused death and despair around the globe.

[LostinVA]

27. Bishop Spong has written books like this

[TNOE]

28. The guy Jon Stewart had on

recently - I believe his books was called Misquoting Jesus or Misunderstanding Jesus or something like that and Jon was really enamored with the book, said it was great. The author (sorry, can't remember the name) began as a fundamentalist christian but was also a historian and checker of facts. When he dug into the originations of the Bible, he was shocked. I'd check out this book and rate it up on Amazon and maybe if its in paperback buy a slew of them and send to your local fundy churches.

Edited to add - found it at Amazon:

Customers who searched for Misunderstanding Jesus ultimately chose:
1. Misquoting Jesus : The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why -- by Bart Ehrman; Hardcover (Rate it)
Buy new: $14.97 -- Used & new from: $14.75

[KittyWampus]

43. Edit- just read critiques of his work. He deliberately strikes an alarmist

note and relies on his own flawed previous work. In other words, he ignored peer review of his earlier work and simply pares it down into an easy to read book for the masses and goes out of his way to create an unnecessary stir.

Scholars who focus on early biblical manuscripts in their original language may have their work reviewed by considering the textual criticism and linguistic interpretations they arrive at.

Apparently Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus" is basic textual criticism for lay people. But he misuses his specialized knowledge and consequently misleads readers. His conclusions are overwrought and not based on sound scholastic work.

I am personally studying Hebrew at the moment and simply haven't the time to spend reading his work... but learned quite a bit while reading critiques of Ehrman's work.

Here's part of a critique I found helpful:

"In sum, Ehrman’s latest book does not disappoint on the provocative scale. But it comes up short on genuine substance about his primary contention. Scholars bear a sacred duty not to alarm lay readers on issues that they have little understanding of. Unfortunately, the average layperson will leave this book with far greater doubts about the wording and teachings of the NT than any textual critic would ever entertain. A good teacher doesn’t hold back on telling his students what’s what, but he also knows how to package the material so they don’t let emotion get in the way of reason. A good teacher does not create Chicken Littles."

[Toots]

29. Isaiah 32 5-8

:shrug:

[Minnesota Libra]

34. Just looked it up - good one - thanks!!!! nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

30. Want to really watch their heads explode?

Get a whole bunch of Jesus statues or bobble heads for car dashboards, then put a sticker prominently on the front: "JESUS WAS A LIBERAL".

Hand them out at the local Wal-Mart parking lot.

:evilgrin:

[Minnesota Libra]

31. This is a cute idea - might have to give it further thought. nt

[Generic Other]

33. Link to a webpage with great info to get you started

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/

[Minnesota Libra]

35. THANK YOU - for posting this link - good stuff nt

[Festivito]

38. Such a book would be eaten, not absorbed.

Similar to the news media cowing and purging its liberals, churches have done the same. Like media, churches sell their ideas to a people who deem themselves inside a more and more right-wing society. In many churches the word liberal became pejorative.

Let me add here that some of the money going into churches offering conservatism, do receive some funding which would come from nefarious sources. The idea of Christians being used as "wacko" rubes by right-wing wolves in sheep's finely tailored wool suits is of late, clear. People who donate or share concerns are seen as honest by too many educated Christians who should look beyond a shallow display.

Let me also add that it is not just money that is donated to sustain certain churches, it is donation of parties, golfing, visits to fine homes and large boats, where wealthy folks talk the talk and impress with THINGS, that people of some wealth share concerns about God and in general terms: "the direction" society is taking. Thus elevating concern of minority issues such as abortions, gays, and intellectuals, et. al., that is concern about OTHER people's sins, over concerns of all of OUR OWN individual sins.

One more addition, TV evangelism, also well funded, if conservative, influences society's view of what Christianity itself is.

A book on liberal Jesus, if read, would be added to the sermon, not replacing it.

[populistdriven]

39. Jesus was Dirty, Liberal Hippie Like Me

that would look good with a Jesus Fish :D

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. I already do that. When someone makes a comment I disagree with

from a Biblical standpoint I say "Yeah, that's what Jesus told me too" with enough of an eyeroll that they get the hint.