75, 30, 28, 23, 23, 22, 6, 5, 5, 3, 3.

[kpete]

The ages of the victims are in Arabic numerals
Submitted by lambert on Mon, 2006-03-20 18:14.


75, 30, 28, 23, 23, 22, 6, 5, 5, 3, 3. And speaking of grandparents and grandchildren, here’s excerpt from the Iraqi police report shown at left that describes the incident:



At 230 of 15/3/2006, according to the telegram (report) of the Ishaqi police directorate, American forces used helicopters to drop troops on the house of Faiz Harat Khalaf situated in the Abu Sifa village of the Ishaqi district. The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people, including 5 children, 4 women and 2 men, then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles, and killed their animals…

more at:
http://www.correntewire.com/the_ages_of_the_victims_are_in_arabic_numerals
and:
http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/060322103336.83rns2y3.html

[leveymg]

1. It's the Roman legions with automatic weapons and Hellfire missiles

No different from 2000 years ago. None.

[blindpig]

6. "Deserta faciunt et pacem appellant."

They make a desolation and call it peace. Good old Tacticus.

I've long been of the opinion that our ruling class from the very beginning sought to ape the patrician class of Rome. Looks like the program is on course.

[leveymg]

8. The Brits had the good sense to modify the Imperial formula somewhat.

They relied on the appearance of legitimacy -- bringing "civilization", law, order, Christian redemption, et al. This Administration seems to have dropped the figleaf.

We don't even seem to be any good at conquest anymore. Does anybody need any more evidence that the Empire has reached its tipping point.

[Triana]

2. Why do they hate us, again?

DOH! This is disgusting.

[reichstag911]

5. For our freedoms...ahem. n/t

[cantstandbush]

3. Makes me want to cry. So sad. Not to mention our own children

being murdered over there and committing murder. My heart aches.

[DemonFighterLives]

4. The first I heard of this, they were trying to paint the Iraqi troops with

this massacre.
:argh:

[malaise]

47. This is big news on BBC

To the fugging Hague.

[seemslikeadream]

7. Downpressorman where ya gonna run to

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
oh on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
oh on that day

Downpressor man where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressor man where ya gonna run to
Downpressor man where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

And if ya make your bed in hell I will be there
make your bed in hell i will be there
I say make your bed in hell i will be there
on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
oh on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

Where are ya gonna fuckin' run to
Downpressorman
where are ya gonna fuckin' run to

[genie_weenie]

9. Just to clarify

The specifics of the report you mention were not from the police as eyewitnesses, but from a 9 year old girl. As I will not attempt to get into any kind of semantic argument, I will just state the horrific photos (post incident) and the report from a 9 year old girl are not conclusive.

Ugh, I read my sentence and am repulsed.

I simply ask DUers to attempt to reason before concluding US forces, rounded up and executed 11 people including woman and children. While it's not impossible it's also possible they were murdered so the bodies and photos could be used as propaganda. I can not believe US forces are conducting operations of wanton murder.

But before anyone flames me Please see my post here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2178321&mesg_id=2179683

Of course, the real question is can you blame the * Admin (and by extension every single American including DU members) for this slaughter even if we did not do the act? I think this is a good barometer of people's belief system.

[Stand and Fight]

10. I understand your caution... However, you have a short memory.

But have you forgotten My Lei?
I hope not -- as many as 500 OLD men, women, and children...
Have you forgotten Abu Ghraib?
US forces were at the head of the torture and possibly murder of Iraqi civilians....
Have you forgotten Falluja, April 28, 2003?
A total of 13 deaths when a crowd gathered in protest were killed by our US forces...


And your belief system only allows that they could not possibly kill 11???

Vietnam. My Lei. Iraq. Falluja. Abu Ghraib prison... Oh yes, Vietnam... My Lei. Our "noble" US forces rounded up and executed even more people then -- including womEn and children. I'm a former service member myself, so I cannot be accused of being a wild-eyed flaming liberal.

You choose NOT to beleive that US forces are could conduct operations of wanton murder. You choose to believe that for the same reason that a child chooses to believe that their parents can do no wrong.

[genie_weenie]

13. This is not My Lai

As I posted numerous times. I understand people do not give the benefit of doubt when it comes to the military.

But, attacking me personally is not evidence that US forces committed this terrible act.

I understand if the other incidents, indicate a pattern of evil to you, but the troops involved in those crimes are not the same MEN who are under accused of this act on 15 March 2006. You are convicting these troops for others actions.

I understand how people can be skeptical or downright angry at the thought of any military investigation since military investigation's more often than not are exercises in Cover Your Ass.

[Stand and Fight]

17. I'm not attacking you personally.

I'm attacking your message, and your message is divorced from reality.

You're saying you, "I can not believe US forces are conducting operations of wanton murder." Your belief means nothing when confronted with facts:

The Ethics of War: Is the US Military Guilty of War Crimes in Iraq? http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0206-30.htm
US military in torture scandal http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html
Iraq: Permanent US Colony http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031306A.shtml
The US used chemical weapons in Iraq - and then lied about it http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1642831,00.html
U.S. War Crimes in Iraq: A Prima Facie Case http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_uswc.html
New Revelations About Racism in the Military - Army Reservist Witnesses War Crimes http://www.blackcommentator.com/133/133_think_racism_military.html
See the US War crimes on Iraq http://www.albasrah.net/warcrimes.htm

So these are your words: "I can not believe US forces are conducting operations of wanton murder." Those are your words. However, I will say you are right on one thing -- this is not My Lai. This is worst. This is a situation where this could have been prevented even more EASILY than My Lai. That's what makes it so dammed disgusting. I don't know if the people were intentionally killed, but I do strongly argue against your belief that our troops could not do this. I can cite historical fact -- both past and present -- that they can and have.

"I understand if the other incidents, indicate a pattern of evil to you..." Nice strawmen by the way. I never said that the other incidents indicate a pattern of evil to me. I will say that they present a DISTURBING pattern. A pattern that in no way convinces me that US forces are incapable of killing a family. Furthermore I cannot CONVICT troops, but I can sure as hell question their actions. You point out to me where I said they were guilty. Go ahead -- I challenge you to find where I said they were guilty of this. My challenge to you was that they are NOT above doing it, and I suffer from no gross belief or delusion that they could not do it.

I never said I was skeptical of a military investigation. I am however skeptical of the intention of this government and all of its petty little agents.

[genie_weenie]

21. Follow up

This is from your post. Since I am reading it, will you concede I must interpret what you mean when you include the following

But have you forgotten My Lei?
I hope not -- as many as 500 OLD men, women, and children...
Have you forgotten Abu Ghraib?
US forces were at the head of the torture and possibly murder of Iraqi civilians....
Have you forgotten Falluja, April 28, 2003?
A total of 13 deaths when a crowd gathered in protest were killed by our US forces...

I read that as you reasoning (not to say incorrect reasoning) that since US forces have committed terrible crimes in the past, this crime must be true. And while you never wrote US forces are guilty you did write this And your belief system only allows that they could not possibly kill 11???

I think it is fairly clear you believe they are guilty of the murders. And your post #17 also underlines your belief that young men are guilty of wanton murder in Iraq. My statements pertained to this incident.

Of course you did attack me personally. Again from your post you compared me to a non-thinking child:
You choose NOT to beleive that US forces are could conduct operations of wanton murder. You choose to believe that for the same reason that a child chooses to believe that their parents can do no wrong.

As for my view, I am on the side of truth, which has been lacking in this miserable situation for more than 3 years. Please see my post #19.

[Stand and Fight]

28. I reject the your premise that I believe they're guilty.

You THINK it is fairly clear that I believe they are guilty. You clearly have a comprehension problem then. I've stated quite clearly that they are not incapable of having committed these acts. No where have I said that they are guilty. Therefore, your belief is null and void in light of the fact that I have told you I neither believe nor disbelieve their guilt, but I do ardently believe they are capable of it given the record of US forces in Iraq.

I did not attack you personally. I drew a comparison. You formed an incorrect belief based on supposition. My words quite simply meant that you are choosing not to confront the ugly reality that our troops may have committed these war crimes. They are human. They are therefore fragile and imperfect. It is just as likely that they committed the crimes as it is that they did not commit the crimes. I'd LIKE to believe that they did not, but the reality is that they very well may have done just. It's ugly. It's terrible. But I must yield to historical record and logical possibilities.

You can be on the side of truth without sacrificing reality in pursuit of your preferred truth.

[genie_weenie]

29. It's just as likely they committed the crimes

as it is that they did not commit the crimes"? Yikes! I sure hope I never get you on my jury!

Well, I'm not going to argue about this. Despite your sepcific statements you have not said they are guilty, other statements of yours show what you do believe

but I do ardently believe they are capable of it given the record of US forces in Iraq.

It is just as likely that they committed the crimes as it is that they did not commit the crimes. I'd LIKE to believe that they did not, but the reality is that they very well may have done just.

My words quite simply meant that you are choosing not to confront the ugly reality that our troops may have committed these war crimes.

Here goes, as I wrote many times, US forces may be guilty. But I will not convict them by yield to historical record and logical possibilities as you put it but by the facts in this case. Please read my post #19 and #25.

Stand and Fight, I leave you the last word.

[Stand and Fight]

33. Hmmm....

I think it is a fair statement to say, "It's just as likely they committed the crimes as it is that they did NOT commit the crimes." That shows an open-mind to both possibilities. I am neither their defender nor their accuser, but I absolutely will not let up that they are CAPABLE of it given the record of our forces in Iraq. You see, CAPABLE is the key word in that statement. Just because one has the capability of doing something does not mean that they have in fact done it. Likewise, it does not mean that they will do it.

"But I will nto convict them..." You're right. You cannot convict them. Neither can I. Only a court of law can do that.

I have read your posts and you still have not acknowledged that they are capable of having committed these crimes. Furthermore, you have yet to acknowledge that in the course of our occupation of Iraq our forces have committed more than several notable atrocities that are contrary to the laws that govern warfare and our own United States laws. We do not yet know if the Soldiers/Marines in this case are guilty or innocent, and it is best to reserve judgment. Nonetheless, we must remain open to the possiblity that they can be either guilty or innocent -- both of which have yet to be determined.

[sojourner]

24. "since military investigation's more often than not are exercises in ...

Cover Your Ass" -------- and you are awaiting the investigation because???????

I agree that it is wise to reserve judgment until facts are better established. But to rely on a military investigation seems a bit ostrich-like, a fact that you yourself acknowledge. Further, you reject My Lai and other atrocities committed by US troops in wartime as though these were acts of a few rotten apples. A fact you seem to overlook (or deny) is that the conditions of war provide a fertile ground for such behavior -- no matter the nationality or religion of the warriors involved.

[genie_weenie]

27. I did not use the * defence of "it's only a few rotten apples"

But, you can't use My Lai or Abu Gharib as evidence to convict the soldiers/marines/whomever as guilty of this incident. As I posted elsewhere, you might as well blame me, my friends still stuck in Iraq, the DU and the whole goddamn country by extension then...

I do not doubt that there is an unfortunate chance (I'll let others decide if it 1% or 100%) that these acts of wanton butchery where committed by US forces.

Here is a link where I specifcally do say that incidents like this are a natural progression of guerilla warfare:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2178321&mesg_id=2179683

Natural progression does not mean right, btw.

[sojourner]

35. not trying to convict anyone of anything...just stating reasons why

this is NOT unthinkable behavior. It is terribly dismaying to think of the possibility (which is different than asserting a certainty) but given a knowledge of human behavior + an awareness of historical precedent it is just not as unthinkable as you might hope. I also wish that there were no possibility of such atrocities. But long ago I learned that Americans are really just as human as every other human on earth.

that said, I understand your desire to wait for more evidence and your hope that the claims prove untrue. I just think that the military isn't about to do a real investigation any more than they did for Abu Gharib. :shrug:

[genie_weenie]

37. Unfortunately, I think you and others may be right

sigh... I can only hope servicemembers did not do these things. And I share your belief in the awful deeds done by Americans. Even against other Americans...

[sojourner]

44. ...sigh...times two.

:hug:

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. I can believe and do believe it. U.S. forces have conducted

"operations of wanton murder" in the past.

[TheBaldyMan]

16. Sometimes the supposition of wrongdoing is so abhorrent that it is

difficult to accept the possibility that it may be true.

Having said that the investigation is a criminal one. According to the time reporter's own account the evidence is decidedly suspicious. Although in all probability the marines will not be put on trial because of insufficient proof.

Can I ask you why you find it so difficult to entertain the notion that US troops may have committed an atrocity in Iraq, especially after Abu Ghraib and other reports caught on film involving casual murder on the part of private security firms employing ex-servicemen some of whom are Iraq War veterans.

[genie_weenie]

19. As we have discussed BaldyMan

I think (and I could be wrong) that most DUers when then think about this atrocity do not visualize actual young American men with mothers and fathers, hopes and dreams, and real lives, but abstract concepts of faceless & soulless storm troopers marching to the tone of Kill, Kill, Kill.

Also, other people’s actions can not be used as evidence against these troops! You might as well blame me and my friends, since we fit the profile. Young US Marines, sent to Iraq.

Now, what I will say is that I do not dismiss this out of hand. I personally did witness some of those goddamn mercs wildly shooting off they're weapons without regard, into the town of Ramadi. I never saw anyone killed by them blatant disregard, but it would not surprise me if some poor innocent person was.

It's very hard for me to verbalize my feelings. I'm sorry if they don't come out as coherently as I would wish. And I have seen false propaganda images used by the "insurgents", but I of course realize the US is in Iraq based on some of the best propaganda ever foisted upon a nation.

And it is possible the incident in Haditha and the recent one where perpetrated by US forces, because the sequence of events in guerilla war do lead to the type of thinking were occupying forces view all the people as enemy combatants.

[TheBaldyMan]

22. There are a lot of DUers who will 'shoot from the lip' but most will mourn

for the dead of all sides and rage against the administration for sending young men and women into a hell-hole that could have been so easily avoided. There are too many of us here that have friends and relatives who have served or are serving in the Middle East to think that servicemen are robots or mindless killers. Personally I fear for the ones that do come back having been exposed to something that nobody should be exposed to, namely serving in combat. They will carry that burden with them for the rest of their lives, some will handle that load better than others.

Yes, terrorists have a disregard for human life and dignity but we must hold ourselves to a far higher standard or we will be no better to the beasts that behead hostages on camera.

[genie_weenie]

25. Thanks for the understanding

The death over there is terrible. And I've seen to many friends lose all feeling, crawl into a bottle, or pick up some other destructive habit in an attempt to blot out the memories. All it took for me to know it was wrong was one Captain bleeding to death in a port-a-potty 20 feet from me after it took shrapnel from a mortar.

:thumbsup:

[Tyler Durden]

30. other details...

Got these yesterday, WDET "Democracy Now, The War on Peace Report"

All bullet holes/pockmarks were INTERNAL inside the dwellings, not from the inside out.

In one dwelling, the Marines rolled a grenade into a KITCHEN, killing two women and detonating a propane tank and the house.

Details in a report to the Military Authority.

I'm afraid there ain't no "benefit of the doubt" in this one.

[genie_weenie]

32. That's the Haiditha incident from 19 Nov 2005

most unforunately this report is from another incident from 15 March 2006 in Abu Sifa village of the Ishaqi district, north of Baghdad.

However, I am worried that each incident may in fact be true.

edit: to include town name

[Tyler Durden]

42. OOPSIE. Sorry.

So many war crimes. So little time.

[lostnfound]

11. The "6" is not 6 years, it's 6 months.

And by the way, the video was played on DemocracyNow earlier this week.

[Stand and Fight]

18. 6 MONTHS?

Oh good God... Holy Mary, Mother of Jesus...

[npincus]

12. WHAT? American Forces (intentionally) killed CHILDREN?

FUCKED UP

[lebkuchen]

46. Whether w/daisy cutters or at point blank range,

is there a difference?

Both are "collateral," according to the US military.

[Stand and Fight]

15. I won't condemn our soldiers just yet, but...

I sure as hell won't say that they are incapable of such actions. Bullet wounds to the head of several of the corpses... CHILDREN. We're talking CHILDREN people.

A SIX YEAR OLD CHILD.

A FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD.

A FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD.

A THREE YEAR OLD CHILD.

A THREE YEAR OLD CHILD.

Women can use weapons. Men can use weapons. A CHILD! Good God. CHILDREN!

Babies.

My heart cries out in agony.

[flyarm]

38. yes this from the administration that runs and bases its politics on

no American abortions...but killing little brown children..well that must be downright ok with those filthy christians..

this makes me sick...and see above where someone states the <6> was a six "month " old child..

this just makes me sicker than sick...

how many ways do the republicans have to prove their hypocracy...and murder??
all under the guise that they are good christians??

fuck them!

i would like to slap these articles in the face of any who tell me they are christian and republican!
they disgust me and i didn't think it was possible for them to disgust me anymore than they already have!

i can only hope any god holds in store for them his extreme punishment in their afterlife!

fly

[Stand and Fight]

39. Bush and his administration ought to burn in Hell for what they have done.

I recognize that this is a very strong statement to make, but it is how I feel and I don't even really believe in a Hell in the Western way of thinking. However, when I hear of an incident like this I fault them more than I do the soldiers who may or may not be guilty of it because they were put in that position by the Bush administration. It does not matter that they voluntarily enlisted in the military. They surely did not enlist to be dealing with bullshit like this. That's for damn sure.

[Stand and Fight]

20. Kicked and recommended. n/t

[derby378]

23. I though I head these soldiers are facing war crimes charges...

Was I dreaming, or are the charges real?

I'm still in shock over the massacre itself.

[lostnfound]

34. Self - edited - incorrect info.

The incident I was talking about was in Haditha in November.

I incorrectly had written about the "Time video just released showing the victims in their nightclothes..
so the government is now forced to do an investigation for possible war crimes. In nightclothes in their house, so the official story collapsed."

THis was a different situation. In the November situation, the gov't was clearly lying through their teeth, and proven so. In this case, I'm sure they are 100% telling the truth.

[sojourner]

36. war crimes? didn't bush declare our troops free of that possibility?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. Here's a link to the story/video on Democracy Now!............

<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/21/1418210>

[lostnfound]

43. I'm sorry to mislead you. That DN! story was a different tragic slaughter.

from November 2005. I had just watched it also and never guessed that it was yet another mass killing.

So, so sad.

[berni_mccoy]

26. I AM ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY... again.

[derby378]

45. Well, if it helps any...

I'm still proud of American ideals. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, where the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, where "the better angels of our nature" will temper our government's decisions at home and abroad, where everyone enjoys the freedom to speak, write, worship, think, and keep and bear arms as their conscience dictates regardless of race, color, creed, ethnicity, or whatever.

This, to me, is America, and I will always be proud of it. But the cabal that Nero presides over on the Hill is not America. It is an occupation. Maybe not as repressive as Hitler's or Stalin's, but why let it get even half that bad? I am ashamed of what these people are trying to do to America.

[motocicleta]

31. Okay.

I have always been on the, "let's pull the troops out slowly, we messed this up and we have to fix it", side.

Not anymore. I'm not going to be satisfied until we have left that country, until we stop spending money on defense at all. AT ALL. Weapons are the real Pandora's Box. Weapons and defense spending create the need to use them. This evil will continue until the weapons are laid down.

I am so disgusted.

We need to stop the madness, pick up where Gandhi left off, where Jesus left off, where King left off, and not stop until the sickness of militarization is ended.

I don't care who has nukes, as long as my country stands down. We're all going to die! We don't have to sell our souls to get there.

[raysr]

40. Support the Troops!